RS-Chevy-SS

Sorry about the delay. Vacation ended and I've been back on the grind.

So today, RF and myself headed back out to my parents house to work on the car. RF custom built some nice fuel lines that follow the factory routing! They are great, will get pictures soon.

The new lines are flexible and allowed us to access the boss on the runner and plumb the brake booster to it. Also installed the edelbrock 8032 throttle bracket which ended up being slightly too close for proper TV cable adjustment. We had to use the forward most hole on the bracket, and mount is on the furthest back intake bolt for proper clearance. Cruise control cable provision was not built into the bracket.

After we buttoned that up we took it for a small test drive. Car was running good, then it happened. We burnt up the starter cable on the header. Completely lost all electrical on the way back. The cable was nearly burnt all the way through. RF had to leave so I went and sourced a new longer cable from napa and routed the cable next to the tranny lines far away from the headers.

After doing that, the car would not fire! It would crank, catch a little but die immediately. It was as if it was hitting on 3 cylinders only. After scratching my head for about 30 minutes I thought maybe the links were bad. Went to crank the car one last time and it caught on about 3 cylinders and I gave it a little throttle to stay alive and it did! I shut it off then restarted like a champ. My thought are that the timing was way advanced when the cable fried, and after repairs the car wouldn't fire cold with that much advance? Who knows.

Drove it to autozone, picked up vac line, and routed the evap canister back to the TB. Repaired that and took a leap of faith driving it back to my place. So far have 34 miles on it and it purrs! This motor definitely has a lot more torque than the LO3. For instance at 60MPH the LO3 would give resistance when trying to increase speed, this L30 takes off with part throttle without issue. Very noticeable difference.

Noticed a major leak at the front of the power steering pump. Looks like its coming right from behind the pulley. Will need to source a new pump.

Transmission is getting ready to go. Slippage from 2-3 is definitely evident and was with the LO3 but seems aggravated now. Light throttle seems to help. Planning a rebuild or maybe just a swap soon.

Cliffnotes:
Built new fuel lines
Plumbed in brake booster
Catastrophic failure(Starter cable melted on header)
Repaired electrical
Plumbed in evap vacuum
Drove 35 miles
Transmission slipping.

RS-Chevy-SS

Follow up to the post above. RFMaster was recording the test drive and captured the moment when the car lost all electrical. Look at the tach jumping all over the place.

RFmaster

RS

You really fought this one through to the end!!! I had 75 mile drive back, which other than one three car accident along the route was uneventful.

On restart misfire - the engine was probably flooded a bit. When you loose electrical, spark raw - fuel just accumulates inside intake manifold. For gas to burn inside engine it must be atomized (fine mist). Opening blades a bit gets extra oxygen and clears excess fuel.

PS pump replacement will require another episode with the puller installer. Leak is due to a seal going out due to old age and miles. I am no expert at rebuild PS pumps. We know how to R&R PS pump (we are experts at it now) - save the pulley that I brought. RockAuto A1 Cardone 20-7926 for about $35.

Trany 2-3 flare is a series issue. It is possibly attributable to a TV cable slightly out of adjustment. 700R4 are notorious for being sensitive to TV cable action! Try to be very gentle to it for now. Also, need to drill one more hole int he bracket to make it rigid. Make sure that a single bolt + nylock nut are tight!

Your fuel lines are temporary! Hard lines are need for long term use!! To cut, bend and form hard lines is a day job in my workshop without anything else pressing.

//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

Trust me the car has fought me every step of the way. It seems that it wasn't ready to let go of the tired LO3. Make sense about the engine being flooded.

Reference trans slip. I checked the trans fluid today at idle and noticed it to be very low on the stick. Added 1 quart of fluid and the slip seems to have improved, but still evident.

So far drove the vehicle another 30 miles right now, with 30 more planned later tonight. I must say, the new motor pulls very well compared to the LO3. It seems at highway speeds, at about 2k RPM the motor really comes to life and keeps pulling where as the LO3 would fall short. Remember this is still with stock LO3 injectors and prom. Tuning definitely needed.

RF- Need new injectors! haha

Side note: RF I was going through some of my old threads and you first began helping me with the car back in 2007! 7 years ago. I lived a lot further away back then and was in high school still! 7 years later we are still at it!

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Your throttle cable bracket issue has me wondering what to do about mine. Since I am using an adapter, I can source one that puts it in the front, back, or middle. I hate trial and error at 45 bucks a whack though.

Do you have any pics of how everything fits?

RS-Chevy-SS

Yeah its jacked up. I don't have any pics on hand but will take some tomorrow. Approaching the first 100 mile mark. She's running strong. Need more fuel though

RFmaster

On a rainy night (yes this does happen in SoCal!) and responding to frequently heard request a fuel injector pod was assembled to feed 240 HP engine.

Basic Parts
2x pair of matched injectors 64 lb-HR @13 PSI
FPR with 18 PSI spring.


Basic parts


FPR detail




Fully assembled injector pod

Testing it tomorrow
//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

RF you just made my day/night! When do we get to test this beast?? If its easier for you, you can even ship it via USPS to me(flat rate is like $6) so you don't have to make a trip! Will ship you the stockers along with your fee.

RF- Send me the invoice for the fittings and fuel line etc! I cant have you consistently donating without reimbursement!

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Looks nice RF! How did you get the pod so clean? I have a spare pod here that I would like to build and have ready to drop on mine when the time comes.

RFmaster

'1980
Cleanliness is next to godleness when it comes to working on engines and especially fuel injection. My secret is not much of a secret - the injector pod is same injector pod that pulled from JY couple of weeks ago. See post 151 or photo bellow.



Over the years I've developed a rather simple, but effective process. Breakdown TB completely, then soak all cast AL parts and bolts in the carb cleaner for 1 week. After a week of soaking take a brass scrubbing brash (also old tooth brush comes in handy) and remove stubborn deposits. Hit it breakclean, wipe it down with shop towels. That's about it. All bolts get soaked in WD-40 for about 20min, cleaned with brakeclean, dipped into light machine oil, wipe down dry and clean.

All electrical parts - IAC, TPS - I use formula 409 and some soft brushing. Never use aggressive cleaners on electrical parts or plastics. Injectors go to my injector service place.

When parts are really nasty I use ultrasonic cleaner, but I try to avoid that. Gets too involved...

RS
Once I test the pod I'll get it out your way. Keep this in mind - your EPROM must take into account new injector size and fuel pressure that FPR is set at. Other wise you'll have one hell of a problem. This is another discussion all together.

Also check for oil leak right at the dizzy base - IMHO there might be one there. If there is one I have thicker dizzy o-seals to take care of that.

//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

Sounds great RF. Already a step ahead of you on the prom. Tuned performance will be burning me a new prom to adjust, unless you can?

Before you send it let me know so I can forward my address instead of the "shop" address.

Will check dizzy after work. Put almost 100 miles on it. Running strong! Engine wants to pull the tranny off the mount!

RFmaster

RS - you may want to replace trany rear mount - it is probably shot by now if it is OE!!

On Injector pod - I'll forward technical information once I get it tested this weekend.

Now is time to run honey-do's. Cheers

//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

Mount was replaced a few years back as it was broken and clunking. Was trying to illustrate this engines eagerness to take off.

Have fun!

RS-Chevy-SS

Took the family out for a drive today. Had the car loaded down and began driving up a small hill. Around 2500 rpm and 60mph, car started to miss and SES came on. Checked and registered code 43. Assuming the injectors couldn't supply enough and caused the issue?

Also took a short video of a nice night drive. Hit the 110 mile mark tonight.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Code 43 is actually a result of your car failing the forced knock test. Basically the factory ecm program advances the timing up to 22° over the commanded timing advance in a knock sensor test that is designed to make the engine knock. I never liked it and always disabled the forced knock test in my setups.

RFmaster

RS

Code 43 is a knock sensor code - it has to do with KS not detecting or detecting engine knock!

"The ECM did not detect a knock signal during near wide open throttle operation with coolant temperature above 194° F or the knock signal was present for 4 seconds or more during normal engine operation."

So in your case engine probably got some knock under load - this probably due to a combination of factors - LO3 timing and VE table combination resulted in engine knock under load.

On my end - fuel injector pod was tested on my test mule - Turd350 - 5.7L. Operating fuel pressure 17.5 PSI. Injector ratings at 13 PSI 64LB/HR which translated to 74.2 LB/HR at 17.5 PSI per injector. In EBL - "BPC vs VAC" table values were set to 110 across all cells. Once engine was fired up, at idle (675 RPM) BLM values were around 127 - injector pulse width at 1.6 to 1.7 mSec. This indirectly confirms injector sizing of 74 Lb/Hr at 17.5 PSI... On L30 injector pulse width will get shorter, but as long as it stays above 1.2 mSec idle should be OK.

So pass above info to your chip burner....

//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

OK so which of these is correct?

Did the car fail the test or do we think it knocked? Code cleared immediately after restart and did not present again.

RF- Ready to ship?? Haha will relay to tuned performance.

RS-Chevy-SS

So here's my question to you all, will a stock rebuilt 700r4 handle this motor no issues?

I'm thinking about putting a stock rebuilt trans in the car, specifically having the shop below do it. Any thoughts against it?

http://www.californiatransmission.com

RS-Chevy-SS

Finally got Tuner pro to see the cable. Noted a code 32 and 43. Took the snap shots below if they mean anything to anyone.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Awesome on getting Tunerpro up and running, it will really help to be able to see what it is doing.

RFmaster

Well Code 32 was expected - we known why....

Code 43 - Fast355 nailed that one on the head. So for now get some data logging on your current setup.

On the fuel injection pod - found a small gotcha - need to find flat white looking washer that go on the end of the fuel inlet and outlet fittings that screw into injector pod. Walker products list them in their fiel injection catalog as G1416 FUEL OUTLET FITTING WASHER (Plastic) for inlet, and G1417 FUEL INLET FITTING WASHER (Plastic) or G1368. Naturally, no sizes are given. I would like to find GM part number for the washers themselves - service part kit - ACDelco 17111462 includes the adapters which I do not need! According GM Wiki these parts were only available from GM as part of a larger service kit.

CU

//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

Im assuming we cant reuse the washers from my current pod? Rock auto has that kit on sale right now for $13.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=240902

On another note, got around to doing a log on the car today on the way back from work. Mostly highway driving with a hint of city at the beginning and end. Can you review it RF? I tried to read it and I think it is leaning out. Had to put the file in a zip since TGO doesn't accept XDL files.


l30tbilog1.zip

RFmaster

OK - I'll look at it once an opportunity presents. Very busy with work related activities.

//RF

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have a collection of new not used parts from my prior crossfire TB's. I will look throughmy collection. Can you measure total width center width and thickness with a caliper?

ps I dont suppose a full service hardware store would have a nylon washer close enough?

RFmaster

Do me a small favor - I do not have TunerPro 5.0 installed - convert your xdl into csv (or test file)

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I could read it if it were a plain text file as well.

RS-Chevy-SS

RF will be translating to text today and reloading.

Side note: In my search for a tuner I contacted TBI Chips on eBay. That guy is such a tool

RFmaster

Ronny
Thank you... Here are the dimensions for the two pesky washer - gaskets (from SMP rebuild kit).

Small, Gasket, fuel outlet fitting #21
Dims| Inch | mm
OD: | 0.4150 | 10.54
ID: | 0.2665 | 6.77
TH: | 0.0200 | 0.51

Large, Gasket, Fuel inlet fitting #19
Dims| Inch | mm
OD: | 0.4900 | 12.45
ID: | 0.3410 | 8.66
TH: | 0.0210 | 0.53

IMHO I would be weary of using hardware store nylon seals in the EFI fitting. Today's gas just has too much other staff in it which can potentially eat hardware store 'nylon' material over a short period of time and leave you with a leak!

//RF

RS-Chevy-SS

Well guys the LO3 found a new home today from Craigslist. Its going into a 85 iroc 5.0 TPI car. Buyer says his motor is done and wants this to get him by while saving money.

Says he just had his TPI heads completely rebuilt and will be running them on the LO3 short block. Sad to see her go, but happy she will still live in a camaro!

RFmaster

Here is your data file saved in csv format. This data can be imported into excel without much trouble. Observations - lots of BLMs in 130 to 143 range which clearly indicates that ECM is adding fuel over baseline LO3 tune. Like I said still a lot of work to do!

//RF

RFmaster

Minor update
Last night I've received L99 calibration bin file for a 'baby' 4.3L LT1 motor. Extracted SA tables and compared next to stock ANTS 89 LO3 SA tables. L99 tables are on the left, LO3 are the right hand side. Huge difference!


//RF

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Notice the spike in SA(40) at 35 map 800 rpms for L99?

What gives there? Is there a seperate 0% TPS idle sa constant?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Idle has its own separate area.....Also need to look at EGR spark to get the whole picture.

RFmaster

Given additional tables additions - subtractions how do we use L99 SA main table in 8746 ECM? On top of it all we have non EGR L30. Looks like this a much larger issue that will need its own separate thread in the DIY PROM forum... To be continued.

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I forgot you had deleted the EGR. I am helping another guy that kept his EGR too on a similar 350 swap in a Tahoe.

EGR Spark is only active when the EGR is active and you should deactivate EGR in the program. ALOT of the high BLM value may very well be the lack of EGR and the ECM logic still being in place for it. I would suggest tuning it out before attempting VE adjustments with BLMs. Idle SA is not overly important, just put it in the 20-24* range to start.

I would smooth out that spike by smoothing it down with the rest of the SA map.

Ghettobird52

Sorry for getting slightly off topic; hey RF, would you say its a better idea to go with the 18PSI FPR spring, or just an aftermarket adjustable FPR? I am going to be ripping apart a injector pod with 64PPH injectors i pulled couple months back and ended up having problems problems with it when swapped on. I was going to be sending my Injectors to witch hunter for cleaning and flow testing, so while in there i was going to be replacing the FPR with an adjustable one. Thanks for your advice!

RFmaster

You can always go with adjustable FPR - for example JET Model 61500 AND 18 PSI spring. The 18 PSI spring when used with AFPR allows FP to be safely set anywhere between 13 and 25 PSI provided that you have FP capable of providing that much pressure. Now, once you set fuel pressure you'll have to adjust ECM BIN variables to account for new effective injector sizing. This is where the fun begins since you need to have your injector baseline flow performance.

//RF

Ghettobird52

Thats the exact item i was looking at perfect. So what 18 PSI spring did you use and is it still available? If so where? Its a 350 mildy built, mild RV cam bigger than lt1, edelbrock performer intake, full exhaust, 187 heads port polished to the max with 1.94 intake valves, Do you think the 61PPH will be enough? My intent is to get a walbro 255 in there soon.

RS-Chevy-SS

Make a new thread and I'm sure he will help

Ghettobird52

That was my last question.

RFmaster

I went through the numbers since RS will need some help in tuning L30 once some pesky issues are taken care of. I used EBL utility to calculate BPC, effective injector flow rates and estimated HP, while ratings for L30 came from some internet source and might be off a bit. The whole idea here is get the scope for the tuning effort and which injectors are best suited for this combo.

Engine: 1996-2001 Vortec 5.0 L30 Engine

Horsepower (peak) 216 @ 4600
Torque (peak) 279 @ 3100
Torque (average 2200-4000 rpm) 270 Ft./Lbs.


Cfg # | Inj | Pressure | Injector Flow | BPC | est. HP
1.......| 55 | 09.........| 45.8 #/hr......| 158 | 173
2.......| 55 | 13.........| 55.0 #/hr......| 132 | 208
3.......| 55 | 18.........| 64.7 #/hr......| 112 | 244
4.......| 61 | 09.........| 50.9 #/hr......| 143 | 192
5.......| 61 | 13.........| 61.0 #/hr......| 119 | 230
6.......| 61 | 18.........| 71.8 #/hr......| 101 | 271
7.......| 64 | 13.........| 64.0 #/hr......| 113 | 242
8.......| 64 | 18.........| 75.3 #/hr......| 96. | 284

So it looks like either 55 #/hr at 18 PSI or 64 #/hr at 13 PSI is a reasonable starting point. Personally, I would rather start with smaller injector at higher operating pressure - better atomization of fuel, especially at idle.

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The marine 305 vortec makes like 240 and 300 ft/lbs with a 2bbl carb. Same engine makes about 260 HP with MPFI. Slightly different camshaft, but the rest of the long block is the same.

RFmaster

Fast355

We have 12530284 installed and running. It is amazing how hard it is to find specs! Getting back to LO3 to L30 swap with the peak HP numbers are 214 to 260HP range.

From my understanding marine spece'd engines are usually optimized to operate near peak (or slightly above) torque point - this where the boat get on the plane and has to cruise for extended period of time (also the best fuel burn rate). Automotive engines see a completely different dynamic range operation - from Idle to 3500, shifts, etc unless you doing extended highway run, but there you OD drops RPM low to provide better fuel burn.

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The engines are almost identical....Cams are different, 191/196 @ .050" cam on a 111 LSA vs 196/206 @ .050" on 109* LSA. Internally it is the only difference. The L30 trucks are NET rated at 220-230 HP in the Express van. This means that the actual engine makes about 10% more HP at the crank. Fuel requirements should be in the 250-260 HP range for the stock L30.

RS-Chevy-SS

Exactly. Everything Ive found says 230 HP in stock form for the L30. Link below for specs on the motor. I know 200HP and this car definitely has more than that.

I've concur with 250-260hp fueling.

Jegs has an excerpt from gm rating at 230hp/285 tq.

Assuming the free flowing exhaust is good for 20hp or so, wouldn't that put us in the 250 range?

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Perf...30284/10002/-1

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The marine engine is net rated at the propellor shaft at 253 HP and 302 TQ. The cam may be worth 10-15 HP and a touch of torque, but its not much hotter. Engine dyno would be about 10% higher with no accessories or drive.

http://www.gmpowertrain.com/2013_pdf...ine_010713.pdf

I am thinking the stock L30 in a truck needs 20-30 HP more fuel than the rating suggests because the engine is physically making 260 gross hp, before you take off the parasitics of the water pump, alternator, compressor, ps pump, and fan. With a free flowing exhaust and better intake I would expect 270-280 HP.

RS-Chevy-SS

Obviously these are ball park numbers, but I say around 260-270HP. I have my DD which is rated at 260 from the factory with 260 TQ and they feel really identical. If anything the L30 pulls better.

Given that info Fast355, what combination do you suggest?


On to the update.

Yesterday I drove the Camaro to RF's house to replace the leaky power steering pump and fab up some new fuel lines. RF did an amazing job at making these lines custom, but professional to where they appear factory.

Got the new lines fabbed up and installed and they are great! Took the car on the hour drive back and man it is a torque monster. At 70MPH and part throttle the car pulled very well with power to spare! It definitely makes the car a lot more fun to drive! At RFs request, I datalogged the whole way back and uploaded it in this post in both csv and xdl formats.

I came back home and took the car for a small drive to get some fast food. I get to the drive through, put the car in park, and it dies. Go to refire and starter spins. I have been having the hotstart issue, but the starter was bought new in October!

AAA towed it home, I pulled the starter and sent back to rockauto. Rock is shipping a new on Monday so until then the car is down. It was running so well though. Definitely a very torquey motor!

RS-Chevy-SS

Pictures

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The metal fuel lines look great. I do not trust rubber lines and always go with AN lines. Periodically check those lines for hardening and cracking.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The L30 probably pulls better because it makes 30-40 ft/lbs more torque than your daily driver. Also that 3.06 first gear makes even a 2.73 rear geared car pretty snappy off the line.

TORQUE makes things fun to drive.....I had a 2012 Titan and now have a 2014 and simply put the 5.6 V8 in that truck is a TORQUE MONSTER....385 ft/lbs from the factory. I put down 340 RWTQ STOCK! The Airaid CAI added 24 ft/lbs to the tires and the exhaust I have another 18 ft/lbs to the tires. All that torque combined with a 3.89 first gear, 2,600 rpm stall converter, and 3.36 axle gears = lots of tire spin fun.