Oxeginated crap gas
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Member
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Toms River, NJ
Oxeginated crap gas
here in nj (not sure about rest of US) from october to march we have that crappy oxeginated gas, anyone notice any power losses or worse gas mialage? mine dropped from 17 city 23 highway to 15 city 19 highway
-Stell
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1988 IROC 305TPI MINT!!
Mods= Accell SuperCoil, MSD 6A, Ported Plenum, No MAF Screans
, K & N, 160 Thermostat+ Temp Switch, Relocated MAT, Cold Air
-Stell
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1988 IROC 305TPI MINT!!
Mods= Accell SuperCoil, MSD 6A, Ported Plenum, No MAF Screans
, K & N, 160 Thermostat+ Temp Switch, Relocated MAT, Cold Air 
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From: Key West, Florida!
Car: 89RSconvtZZ4TPI
Engine: ZZ4TPI
Transmission: 700R4 TRIPP TRANNY
My brother works in a carb rebuild shop in Baltimore. He says every year this time they get a flood of people wanting their carb rebuilt cause their gas mileage went to crap! Luckily he works at an honest shop and they tell people about the oxyginated gas.
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Rob P
89RSconvtZZ4TPI
92Z28convt5spd
71Impala convt 402BB
BETTER DRIVING THRU SUPERIOR HORSEPOWER!
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Rob P
89RSconvtZZ4TPI
92Z28convt5spd
71Impala convt 402BB
BETTER DRIVING THRU SUPERIOR HORSEPOWER!
Member
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 307
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From: Bel Air, MD USA
Car: 1969 Chevelle SS 396
Starting in early 2000, we have to use that crap-gas year 'round! The additive is MTBE (or something like that) that oxygenates the gas. EPA tree-huggers say it reduces emissions and makes the air cleaner. What I don't understand is:
1) How can lower MPG's and decreased performance be GOOD for the environment?
2) How come California is outlawing the usage of MTBE? EPA tree-huggers out there are finding resevoirs contaminated with the stuff. MTBE causes cancer and other health problems.
Yet they're still feeding it to us over here.
Rick
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'87 L98 IROC
Warmed over 30 over L98
K&N's, Dynomax CAT, Edelbrock Cat-back
4Wheel Disc, leather, power everything
Moon-Glow Pearl White with red "25th Anniversary
Heritage Stripes"
1) How can lower MPG's and decreased performance be GOOD for the environment?
2) How come California is outlawing the usage of MTBE? EPA tree-huggers out there are finding resevoirs contaminated with the stuff. MTBE causes cancer and other health problems.
Yet they're still feeding it to us over here.
Rick
------------------
'87 L98 IROC
Warmed over 30 over L98
K&N's, Dynomax CAT, Edelbrock Cat-back
4Wheel Disc, leather, power everything
Moon-Glow Pearl White with red "25th Anniversary
Heritage Stripes"
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Stell, et al,
Here in the Corn Belt (Rust Belt, Snow Belt, etc.) the oxygenating element in fuels is ethanol. MTBEs are going to be eliminated by the USEPA in short order. It seems that a handful of the governments' own scientists warned against the use of MTBEs as fuel additives as early as 1990, but the USEPA chose to ignore the warnings. Now that some frogs in the west are growing three legs and seven-inch ********, they've decided that maybe there was something to the warnings (DUH!). Expect more of the same kind of "expert" decision-making with the new administration, regardless of which dolt ends up sitting in the Oval Office.
Anyway, back to the technical part of the thread, we who choose to get our cars drunk at the pump can cheat the base timing farther ahead to compensate for the lost heat, and actually get a little more combustion pressure. Some mechanics who have decided not to venture beyond what the textbooks say for a given engine will not know enough to attempt this, and will inadvertently overlook an easy solution to the problem.
Incidentally, if you're concerned about wasting oil and the resultant environmental damage, read along a bit further. If any of us were to pour our used oil on public highways, what do you suppose the EPA would have to say? Yet millions of gallons of petroleum products are laid on the ground annually, either in fresh oil to "resurface" bituminous highways or as the major bonding component of asphaltic concrete ("blacktop". as it more commonly known). I recently tried to dispose of some used, crumbled "blacktop" in a municipal landfill from a commercial parking lot repaving project, and the landfill rejected the loads because the waste would not pass the TCLP tests for oil limits. In other words, oil would leach out of the material and contaminate ground water and streams - just like it does from thousands of miles of highways and streets every year. As long as a government body sanctions the action, it must be environmentally safe, like MTBEs.
When you finally see all roads paved with US-made concrete instead of 10% Arab asphalt, you can start taking the Feds seriously. Until then, they are about as trustworthy as a Florida election judge.
I'll get off my stump now...
------------------
Later,
Vader
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"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
Here in the Corn Belt (Rust Belt, Snow Belt, etc.) the oxygenating element in fuels is ethanol. MTBEs are going to be eliminated by the USEPA in short order. It seems that a handful of the governments' own scientists warned against the use of MTBEs as fuel additives as early as 1990, but the USEPA chose to ignore the warnings. Now that some frogs in the west are growing three legs and seven-inch ********, they've decided that maybe there was something to the warnings (DUH!). Expect more of the same kind of "expert" decision-making with the new administration, regardless of which dolt ends up sitting in the Oval Office.
Anyway, back to the technical part of the thread, we who choose to get our cars drunk at the pump can cheat the base timing farther ahead to compensate for the lost heat, and actually get a little more combustion pressure. Some mechanics who have decided not to venture beyond what the textbooks say for a given engine will not know enough to attempt this, and will inadvertently overlook an easy solution to the problem.
Incidentally, if you're concerned about wasting oil and the resultant environmental damage, read along a bit further. If any of us were to pour our used oil on public highways, what do you suppose the EPA would have to say? Yet millions of gallons of petroleum products are laid on the ground annually, either in fresh oil to "resurface" bituminous highways or as the major bonding component of asphaltic concrete ("blacktop". as it more commonly known). I recently tried to dispose of some used, crumbled "blacktop" in a municipal landfill from a commercial parking lot repaving project, and the landfill rejected the loads because the waste would not pass the TCLP tests for oil limits. In other words, oil would leach out of the material and contaminate ground water and streams - just like it does from thousands of miles of highways and streets every year. As long as a government body sanctions the action, it must be environmentally safe, like MTBEs.
When you finally see all roads paved with US-made concrete instead of 10% Arab asphalt, you can start taking the Feds seriously. Until then, they are about as trustworthy as a Florida election judge.
I'll get off my stump now...
------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
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MTBE... wonderful crap.
Its a derivitave of butane. Its nasty stuff, leaks right through most tanks. Only the newer ones can prevent the stuff from getting through. The base chemical does not break down, and lands back on the ground after it passes through the engine. It goes right into the ground, through the groundwater pores, and into the groundwater. It does cause cancer. It will make you sick if you are around enough of it.
I dunno about calling asphalt an oil. Its the thicker part of the sludge left over after a refining process of crude oil. A high content of normal oil leads to bad cohesion of the aggregate particles used in HMA (hot-mixed asphalt) and because of this, very little of the 'liquid' part of the oil is in it. Its basically a solid at normal temps. Even at that it only has about 4-6% asphalt cement by volume. Of that, maybe 5% is what I would consider oil. High oil content is especially a problem in places where I live, where the temperature changes alot. The high temps allow the stuff to melt and move around under tire loads and it really doesnt work well. The stuff they repave with is an emulsified mix of old rehab'd asphalt and water. They sometimes add other stuff in there, used to be sulfur, which is more than likely what the landfill did not want. Damn I need to get outa this class... too much crap about useless ****.
In short, MTBE sucks. A decrease in mileage is normal, trying what Vader said might help but its still a terrible additive. I worked around it enough I took the time to write a letter to the EPA years ago, probably fell on deaf ears.
Something else I forgot... The oil that 'leaks' out of old asphalt is the stuff the cars leaked out onto the road. You would be shocked how much pollution drips off of cars and runs off the surface and into catch basins. There is actually a design criteria to filter the water runoff, and its the same for concrete and asphalt roads. The asphalt itself is not the problem.
[This message has been edited by madmax (edited November 18, 2000).]
Its a derivitave of butane. Its nasty stuff, leaks right through most tanks. Only the newer ones can prevent the stuff from getting through. The base chemical does not break down, and lands back on the ground after it passes through the engine. It goes right into the ground, through the groundwater pores, and into the groundwater. It does cause cancer. It will make you sick if you are around enough of it.
I dunno about calling asphalt an oil. Its the thicker part of the sludge left over after a refining process of crude oil. A high content of normal oil leads to bad cohesion of the aggregate particles used in HMA (hot-mixed asphalt) and because of this, very little of the 'liquid' part of the oil is in it. Its basically a solid at normal temps. Even at that it only has about 4-6% asphalt cement by volume. Of that, maybe 5% is what I would consider oil. High oil content is especially a problem in places where I live, where the temperature changes alot. The high temps allow the stuff to melt and move around under tire loads and it really doesnt work well. The stuff they repave with is an emulsified mix of old rehab'd asphalt and water. They sometimes add other stuff in there, used to be sulfur, which is more than likely what the landfill did not want. Damn I need to get outa this class... too much crap about useless ****.
In short, MTBE sucks. A decrease in mileage is normal, trying what Vader said might help but its still a terrible additive. I worked around it enough I took the time to write a letter to the EPA years ago, probably fell on deaf ears.
Something else I forgot... The oil that 'leaks' out of old asphalt is the stuff the cars leaked out onto the road. You would be shocked how much pollution drips off of cars and runs off the surface and into catch basins. There is actually a design criteria to filter the water runoff, and its the same for concrete and asphalt roads. The asphalt itself is not the problem.
[This message has been edited by madmax (edited November 18, 2000).]
Senior Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 699
Likes: 63
From: Central NJ
i live in NJ too and man my car has sucked lately...bad gas milage/performance..i was worried but i totally forgot about the addatives, so at least i know the problem now. and about the govt. they are a bunch of *******s...they do **** they shouldnt and they know it...but they just pretend liek they're dumb when someone tells them they're wrong. small exaple...we were just learning about love canal in class the other day...and when it happened the government wouldnt do a thing about it...there was black **** oozing through the foundations of houses...so the govt told people to stay out of their basements...then they decided to temporarily relocate pregnant women and kids 2 or younger...as if it were safe for everyone else to be there. then they started telling people not to use their backyard or basements cause it was dangerous...yet they denied any wrongdoing. sorry for my rant...lots of stuff just pisses me off
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350, Comp 262, Edelbrock Performer intake 600 cfm carb and exhaust, headers
[This message has been edited by CamaroZ_85 (edited November 19, 2000).]
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350, Comp 262, Edelbrock Performer intake 600 cfm carb and exhaust, headers
[This message has been edited by CamaroZ_85 (edited November 19, 2000).]
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Originally posted by madmax:
MTBE... wonderful crap.
In short, MTBE sucks. A decrease in mileage is normal, trying what Vader said might help but its still a terrible additive.
MTBE... wonderful crap.
In short, MTBE sucks. A decrease in mileage is normal, trying what Vader said might help but its still a terrible additive.
Thanks for the advice. The ashpalt/oil problem is not a direct issue for me, since the used product was eventually recycled. The point I was making was the use of petroleum in the product makes it pretty suspect, and may be a waste of an otherwise "scarce" resource. (Scarce - if you believe the suppliers.) That aside, even a small percentage of free oils in the product would fail the TCLP tests, which allow 10 PPM insoluble and soluble oils in waste product. That ain't much, and doesn't even take into account bituminuous pavement - essentially the heavy oils from refining and finely crushed rock.
The idea of advancing timing had no relevance to MTBE additives. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I was suggesting trying timing advance on cars using ethanol-blended fuels. I have no experience with MTBE additives in fuel, and likely won't at any time in the future, since it was legislated out of fuels in my region of the midwest. My understanding is that the US EPA is likely to continue eliminating MTBEs across the US, mandating ethanol as a replacement. If and when this occurs, you might want to play with the timing a bit more. If you are using MTBE additives in your fuel, I have no advice as to what might help you recover the lost energy.
Max for president, anyone? I know he hasn't done anything as universally impressive as inventing the internet (or something like that), but at least we wouldn't have a hoibbibbibbly ignorant man in office, and I'd bet he'd restrict his Hummers to the garage instead of the office.
------------------
Later,
Vader
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"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
[This message has been edited by Vader (edited November 19, 2000).]
Member
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 129
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From: Ohio
I can see a thirdgen.org storm on D.C. Just imagine the news coverage.
A group of approximately 100 mid '80 camaros and firebirds stormed the whitehouse today with "max for president" painted on their windsheilds. They were very tedios and went to great lengths to ensure that every single vehicle ran over President (insert either retard candidate here). They also left very large circles on the white house lawn. Damn those hellians. Oh, the humanity. So on, and so fourth.
------------------
'86 IROC-Z
305 LG-4, T-5
Arrest Me Red
T-Tops
50k Original Miles
K&N Air Filter
Stage I Chip
Begging For More
A group of approximately 100 mid '80 camaros and firebirds stormed the whitehouse today with "max for president" painted on their windsheilds. They were very tedios and went to great lengths to ensure that every single vehicle ran over President (insert either retard candidate here). They also left very large circles on the white house lawn. Damn those hellians. Oh, the humanity. So on, and so fourth.
------------------
'86 IROC-Z
305 LG-4, T-5
Arrest Me Red
T-Tops
50k Original Miles
K&N Air Filter
Stage I Chip
Begging For More
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Toms River, NJ
now thats what i call a GOOD idea 
imagine the media coverage we'd get. kiss that mtbe good-by
-Stell
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1988 IROC 305TPI MINT!!
Mods= Accell SuperCoil, MSD 6A, Ported Plenum, No MAF Screans, K & N, 160 Thermostat+ Temp Switch, Relocated MAT, Cold Air
imagine the media coverage we'd get. kiss that mtbe good-by -Stell
------------------
1988 IROC 305TPI MINT!!
Mods= Accell SuperCoil, MSD 6A, Ported Plenum, No MAF Screans
, K & N, 160 Thermostat+ Temp Switch, Relocated MAT, Cold Air 
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Johnstown, Ohio
Car: 84 Z28
Engine: 355 (fastburn heads, LT4 HOT cam)
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt, 3.27
Anyone know if that MTBE crap is in Ohio? I have recently noticed a decrease in fuel mileage and suspect something like that, seeing that my car is very well looked after. I did pick up a bit of SOTP when I changed the plugs, but the mileage still sucks donkey nuts! (Can I say sucks donkey nuts?)
I think we should put Max as pres, Vader as vice pres, and the rest of us helping out!
I can see the ticket now: The Max/Vader Administration!
Hehehehe.....
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Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350
using primarily GMPP parts.
Block is in shop!
Awaiting results from all 8 ASE tests.
Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!
I think we should put Max as pres, Vader as vice pres, and the rest of us helping out!
I can see the ticket now: The Max/Vader Administration!
Hehehehe.....
------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350
using primarily GMPP parts.
Block is in shop!
Awaiting results from all 8 ASE tests.
Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 0
From: Johnstown, Ohio
Car: 84 Z28
Engine: 355 (fastburn heads, LT4 HOT cam)
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt, 3.27
Wow it looks like I can say that! Hehehe.
Also, does anyone know of any web sites that have good info about the crap they put in gas? I might be interested in looking at it (Hopefully they have lots of pictures, etc... so that I CAN read it!)
------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350
using primarily GMPP parts.
Block is in shop!
Awaiting results from all 8 ASE tests.
Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!
Also, does anyone know of any web sites that have good info about the crap they put in gas? I might be interested in looking at it (Hopefully they have lots of pictures, etc... so that I CAN read it!)
------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350
using primarily GMPP parts.
Block is in shop!
Awaiting results from all 8 ASE tests.
Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
From: Macon, Georgia
Amen and give 'em hell Vader!
But damn...will there be ANY octane enhancers left to put in gas after the tree-huggers and the Gorons are finished having their way with us?
It won't be long before we'll be back to where we were right after WW2--6:1 CR engines and 87 octane will be the new "premium". I haven't forgotten the low compression slugs of the 70's! Ethanol fuel additives are only a regional answer, at best, and the energy required to make it is greater than the energy released from burning it. There are even certain times of the year that are not good for ethanol as a fuel additive.
But damn...will there be ANY octane enhancers left to put in gas after the tree-huggers and the Gorons are finished having their way with us?
It won't be long before we'll be back to where we were right after WW2--6:1 CR engines and 87 octane will be the new "premium". I haven't forgotten the low compression slugs of the 70's! Ethanol fuel additives are only a regional answer, at best, and the energy required to make it is greater than the energy released from burning it. There are even certain times of the year that are not good for ethanol as a fuel additive.
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 13,414
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From: Central NJ, USA
Car: 1986 Firebird
Engine: 2.8 V6
Transmission: 700R4
I'm still amazed that I use more of the oxygenated gas to get where I'm going than I would normal gas. 1/2 tank here & there for normal gas, 3/4 tank for the MTBE stuff? 
One of my friends used to work at a gas station a few years ago, he would start getting headaches when the oxygenated gas rolled around.
------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!
One of my friends used to work at a gas station a few years ago, he would start getting headaches when the oxygenated gas rolled around.
------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,187
Likes: 46
From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: L92/LQ4 (both w/4" stroke)
Transmission: 4L80E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
I can tell you when the oxygenated fuel kicks in each fall and out each spring by my gas mileage, which I track with each fillup. Both ethanol and MTBE are used here, sometimes by the same station (the sticker will say they use either/or - you never really know). Some stations only use ethanol, though. But, they're hard to find.
The oil companies lobbied for MTBE because they make it. They have to buy ethanol or spend $'s to get the capacity - it was cheaper to buy off the EPA and congress.
In Colorado, 87 octane is MID-grade! 85 is regular. The octane rating stays the same with ethanol added, they just reduce the refining of the gasoline so the end product is 85 octane. So, Vader's solution doesn't work here unless you can get by with the advanced timing in the summer, too.
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82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R. 2.73 unlimited slip. Cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LB9 w/ZZ3 cam, TBD heads, exhaust, paint, etc.).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. 0.030 over 396, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" headers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & shift kit, 3.08 10-bolt, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1 @ 5800' Bandimere. Daily driver while Camaro was being put together.
The oil companies lobbied for MTBE because they make it. They have to buy ethanol or spend $'s to get the capacity - it was cheaper to buy off the EPA and congress.
In Colorado, 87 octane is MID-grade! 85 is regular. The octane rating stays the same with ethanol added, they just reduce the refining of the gasoline so the end product is 85 octane. So, Vader's solution doesn't work here unless you can get by with the advanced timing in the summer, too.
------------------
82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R. 2.73 unlimited slip. Cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LB9 w/ZZ3 cam, TBD heads, exhaust, paint, etc.).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. 0.030 over 396, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" headers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & shift kit, 3.08 10-bolt, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1 @ 5800' Bandimere. Daily driver while Camaro was being put together.
Junior Member
Joined: May 2000
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From: AK
Here's a copy and paste from an interesting article I found.
Ethanol, which is the primary EPA oxygenate, has an air fuel ratio of approximately 9:1. When 10% Ethanol is blended in gas, it can cause a loss of gas mileage and power because of this stochoimetric air/fuel ratio. Computer controller cars will notice this also. However, if compensated and properly jetted, Ethanol and MTBE can produce more power because of the increased Oxygen content even over race gas if you have a lower compression ratio.
Here's a link to the rest of the article if you wish to read it.
http://www.wauknet.com/douthitt/pumpgas.htm
Ethanol, which is the primary EPA oxygenate, has an air fuel ratio of approximately 9:1. When 10% Ethanol is blended in gas, it can cause a loss of gas mileage and power because of this stochoimetric air/fuel ratio. Computer controller cars will notice this also. However, if compensated and properly jetted, Ethanol and MTBE can produce more power because of the increased Oxygen content even over race gas if you have a lower compression ratio.
Here's a link to the rest of the article if you wish to read it.
http://www.wauknet.com/douthitt/pumpgas.htm
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Oakville, Ct
Car: 1991Firebird T/A
Engine: 350
Transmission: Modified Viper t-56
Axle/Gears: dana 44, 3.55
MD beat me to it- it is very true that when the fuel mixture is changed to match where the optimum value is.. this could be accomplished ont he dyno if i am not mistaken and the amount of air needed is less also i believe... its probably comparable to alchohol cars- in the fact that alchy cars run much bigger jets than gas cars do... i also remmeber the race motor guy saying something about how drivers were cheating by adding oxygenisers to the fuel due to the restrictive carbs used...
Steve
Steve
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