Ok Here is the propblem.

I got a cam for my camaro and decided to pull the motor to do the swap. mainly just so I could clean everything up. I was interested in a big project.

My so called buddy convinced me that I needed to pull the heads because I had air leaks from the intake port when I pressurized the cylinder.

So I did. We pulled out the valves and took the heads to a machine shop and they media blasted them to clean them up.

Well after getting them back I realized that my valve seats looked pretty pitted.

I called around and everyone I spoke with said I have to get a valve job.
They also said resealing the top end will surely blow out the rings cuz I have 160k on the motor.

So here I am! What the heck can I do? I need advice!

Are the heads ok to put back together? Can I do a valve job and not rebuild the bottom end? Can I just re-ring it?

Money like always is the concern. I can come up with what I need but I'm having a hard time swallowing this one.

 

A valve job and a new head gasket isnt goingto blow your bottom end out thats horse cr$%

Now once the cam is in youll probably want to lean on the motor some at that mileage..could be risky but if it goes it was going to anyway.

You can always lap the valves in if youre tight on money to see if they seal well or not or spring for a valve job, the typcal 3 angle with nothing fancy usually runs less than 2 bills.

If its out get it back together, run it and piece together a fresh motor over time.

 

I can do the valve job. Thats no biggie. From the pics would you say it needs?

 

It looks like it needs a valve job. I have always been retold to go the extra distance and re-ring when I did anything to the heads. Is it necessary? Probably not but you already have the motor out go spend the few bucks on rings.

 

So the machine shop that did the media blasting and didn't warn you that the seats would get pitted is now going to do the valve job? They'll tell you, you needed a valve job any way, so why didn't they tell you that to begin with? You might try to negotiate the cost, if they don't play ball take the heads to another shop. But, don't bluff, don't go back once you're out the door.

 

My head man (when I worked at an automotive machine shop), told me when you remove heads, get up as much of the coolant with blue towels off the tops of the pistons, then spray them down with WD40. If it's going to be a week or so before the new or rebuilt heads get put back on, spray the cylinders every few days. If the water sits on the pistons, it can cause ring failure. A lot of old dogs will tell you “you’ll blow out the rings if you do a valve job on a worn motor” It’s not the increased compression that does it, it’s usually the rings crystallizing.

Did you keep the valves in order? If not, looks like you'll be doing a valve job regardless.

Also, depending on the type of media they used, the blasting would not necessarily cause the pitting, so if you go back there, don't go in with the assumption that they messed up.

My issue with re-ringing is it's such a snowball effect. Once you starting digging into the bottom end, you budget goes away. You'd be silly not to do new bearings while you're there. But you'd be silly to not at least get the crank polished if not turned. You'd be silly to not at least get the big end of the rods checked for round etc etc.

Some more advice would to be get the heads checked for flatness. If this is the first time they've been off the car with that many miles, there's a good chance they will need to be surfaced.

 

if your motor is standard everything new rings are 30 bucks rod berring set is 25 bucks main berring set is 30 bucks and a ball hone from harbor freight is 15 bucks. so for a 100 dollars you could get the bottom end back together with no problem. valve lapping compound is 6 bucks and a drill if you already have one you can do the valves yourself. a full engine gasket set if roughly 45 bucks so for 151 dollars you could have a rebuild motor. rings berrings and gaskest valve lapping. easy fix man.

 

True, but how bad is the ridge at the top of the cyl? At 160k miles those cylinders are no longer round.

Add oil pump and pickup to the list of things I'd do if I tore my engine that far down.

 

BINGO

I'm restoring an 89 RS. I'm not interested in installing a used engine or spending the money needed to "go to a 350" because again, I'm restoring, not repairing so a new engine or complete reman is in order.

When I pulled the heads, the ridge was beyond just a ream and a hone.

At 160k miles of course you need new valve guides if you want to do it right

I found a machine shop that will rebuild my engine, parts included for $1300. I gather that they understand the state of the market and economy. You should shop around. I'm sorry to say but with a 160k mile motor, you needed to have a plan and budget before yanking the engine. To me, it makes no sense to pull a 160k engine to slap in a cam. Why try and increase performance on a tired engine that could use to be freshened?

 

Thanks for the replies guys.

Well I haven't asked them yet. I'll do that tomorrow. But they didn't tell me a valve job would be needed after a media blast. So I will try to negotiate with them and see where it gets me.

 

Thats good advice. I oiled the pistons and cylinder walls with normal motor oil. Will that work?

Yes I kept the valves in order.

I was told walnut or soda are the safest to use. I'll find out tomorrow what they used.

I agree that if I'm going to re-ring it, I am stupid to not pony up and do the complete rebuild. It's just a painful lesson.

 

I would be too worried about everything I did. I don't have the know how yet to feel comfortable doing all that myself. This will only be my second engine rebuild.

 

Well I did have a plan and a budget before it all started but I let a friend talk me out of it and now I'm gonna pay.

I'll agree that it wasn't that smart to throw a cam at a 160k motor but I wanted to try it out. Now I'm gonna have to eat it

 

Oh ok well just to get ya going i have done this method 100 times and have never had a problem with it. But if your new to building a motor then maybe it would be safer to have one built for you. Best of luck man.

 

if he was just looking to get another year form the engine, and it had issues, (otherwise just keep adding oil and drive it) then your advice was sound. he wants performance and reliability and with the miles on that engine, once it's opened, then do it all. How could he not get the crank inspected and polished, or the rods inspected/resized, or the cylinders bored, or the heads..........you get the picture as i believe the OP now does as well.

A good budget number to use for a stock rebuild is $2,000. If you can do it for less, then all the better but you'd rather come under budget than go over.

 

hey dude,
had the same issue when I found out my 196K engine was drinking coolant like krazy. Though I didn't take the engine out, the short block is worn, check out pics of my cylinders. I ddnt have the $ to rebuild the bottom end or time to pull it. I ended up wiping and blowing out the cylinders, cleaning the deck with a soft wire brush on a drill and bolted it all back up. Cooling issue solved minus the fans being wired backwards and cooling the coolant on its way out of the radiator.
I had the same situation, put it back together and hope I can get at least another year out of it and rebuild, the B4C's are worth it anyway. So far so good on the tired short block, all stock with and flomaster 80 series. Get lots of comments on sound, wish I had a vid to post.

Hope you get it going with minimal damage.

 

you did what you had to do to keep it running for a while. I can't imagine any car buff who hasn't been in a similar situation.

 

Ok Well I'm getting out of my misery stage and am ready to do what it takes to make this a reliable well sealed and well performing engine.

I am looking at doing the crank bearings rod bearings rings and possibly cam bearings. Is it safe to use the pistons, lifters, and push rods with that kind of mileage or am I asking for trouble?

Next Q-- Do I need to have a machine shop look at everything to make sure its all good to go? Or is it safe to assume that it was working really really well before with plenty of oil pressure so throwing new direct replacement bearings at it will be safe?

i dyno'd the car before I pulled the engine and it put down 221HP and 300 TQ. It was all stock except for the runners and header back exhaust.

The cylinders have some lite scoring marks mainly where the skirts run and most of the cylinders have hash marks still.

PS How much should I expect to pay to have cam bearings installed?

 

You have a decision to make. You continue to contradict yourself in your posts. Do you have the money?? If not, then the point is moot and hone the cylinders, slap on some new rings, bearings (not cam), gaskets and be done. You'll probably get more miles for the vehicle.

Now, if you have the money, and really want to bring the engine back to its best performance, then get all the machine work done. Be prepared for your project to be around $2,000. If that small $$ amount shocks you, then put the thing back together. I will again state this. I was very fortunate to find a shop that does a small block stock rebuild for $1300 parts included. Once you get into adding a new cam, rockers, lifters, springs, push rods and some mild porting of the heads then prices start to climb quickly. You don't want to just slap in a bigger cam without the cast of supporting characters. Might it work OK for a while? Sure it might. Might it also have failure when you push it to 5500 rpm's and beyond, of course.

It is decision time for you. I know that reading automotive forums can be like a siren song. Some posters make things sound so easy and inexpensive. What happens is that those of us who have been doing things for a while forget to discuss all of the extra costs and unless we keep a good record of every nickel that we spend, we tend to go into denial over the cost. Heck, i do that myself because tinkering is almost like an addiction with me. I just have to have a project or else I go stir crazy.

So, do you have the funds to dio it correctly?

Cheap engines aren't good and good engines aren't cheap

 

I'll echo everything torque said. My shop charged about $1200-$1500 for a stock SBC rebuild, depending on what was wrong with it and what mild performace upgrades were done. And like he said, there's all the little stuff that adds up, like water pump, belt, hoses, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, getting the radiator cleaned out etc. in addition to that $1200.

And for me, I kept a good record of the costs of my first rebuild. Kept every reciept in a folder. Of course, I've never had the courage to actually add them all up

My shop had a sign with that saying about Good, Cheap, Fast. Pick 2.

It really all comes down to what you can afford. If you don't have a big budget, do what you can to give your engine the best fighting chance. It's one of those things where you can slap it together and it'll run for another 100k... or it may last 10k. We've all been there. Click the link in my signature to see how my car got the name "Knocker".

I'd at a minimum take the block etc to a shop to get cleaned. We used a combination of a hot and cold vat. $75 to clean it all. Have them replace the cam bearings and freeze plugs, surface the heads. IIRC, we charged $14.50 (or maybe it was $22.50) to install the cb/fp. Maybe have them check the big end of the rods to make sure they're not really bad. You can polish the crank, polish the cam, hone the cyl and the other labor if you're up to it. The only thing I will say about having a shop check out everything, is that if it's not in perfect condition, they will say to replace/rebuild that component. Some people get offended by this by saying the shop is trying to screw them, the xxx wasn't that bad. But you have to look at it from their POV. If something is marginal, they're not going to suggest reusing it as a simple matter of covering their a$$.

 

well i built a bunch of 350s and i did this exact same way and have done it in my race car other ppls daily driver and no one has ever complained and no one has ever had to add any oil. My friend evan has had his motor built this way by me cause its hard right now for every one and money is tight but he has had his motor for 3 years and never once had a problem with it.
just use good oil and zink add and you will be all good.

scence i rele dont know what your budget, every one is perfectly right about taking it to a machine shop and having it cleaned up crank block ect.

Machine shop is the way to go if you got the dollars to do it. all i was saying was its easy to rebuild it for dirt cheap.

Also i would like to know for a basic rebuild for 2000 dollars what you put back in the motor. i can spend 1000 and have a killer basic rebuild long block have the block bored deck surfaced line honed. have decent valve job done and its good to go.

Or ae you talking about all the machine work done + new parts and labor to build it i can see that.

 

Exactly. For me personally, my own engines that I have new from day one, I know the maintenance and when you open up the engines, wear is minimal.

For older cars with unknown history which I'm sure is with the OP, the prior owner may have changed oil every 10k miles, never flushed the cooling and used 87 octane gas. So, when I plan on opening an unknown engine, I have a budget set aside for machine shop labor. By the time you pay the machine shop charges for what should be done, it's not that much more expensive to have them just install the parts.

Again, and I won't disagree with you, to a point, of course you could lap valves, toss in new head gaskets, rod bearings, maybe mains and re-ring. Maybe you might even hone the cylinders. Put it all back together and it will probably still run. Might one of the rings get caught on the ridge; probably. Might it use a wee bit of oil, maybe. It all comes down to what you want to do. If you just want to keep it running then that is one thing. If you want to build for performance and reliability, then "cheap" is not in the vocabulary.

 

Yup exactly cheap performance is no option! and your right tho posibilities like the rings getting caught are there but theey do make a tool you can buy it a kragen or harbor freight, its a ridger for the cylendars. but honestly it all comes down to what you wanna do. take it to a machine shop and do it right if you got the money but if you dont there is always a cheeper way to get the motor back together to an extent, some times you have no option but to go to the machine shop. then there are times where you are not sure and ask like we are on here. but if u got the money go to the machine shop.

 

with that many miles, reaming the ridge is probably also a waste of effort because the cylinders probably need to be bored. The car I'm restoring right now was exactly in that position. I pulled it, removed the heads, looked at the cylinders and the ridge, put away my reamer and began making calls to machine shops and searching for a good reman'd long block.

I should be getting my engine back next week.

 

I totally understand what you guys are saying and 100% agree. My goal was to put in a mild cam an use the motor till I could afford the engine I wanted.

In that process I opened a can of worms. I'll do the valve job and whatever I need to put the engine back in and be able to rely on it for another 100k if I need to.

My goal is not a total engine build but reliability and peace of mind when I put it back. If that means bore it out then thats what I'll do.

Torque is good is right about how to do it right. Travis Henry is getting more along the lines of what I am after on this. "what are the minimums that can be done for this to be a reliable good engine with plenty of life".

The machine shop will do the 3 angle valve job and resurface for $100 out of guilt so I'll have that done.

I found another shop that will do cam bearings for $30 and boring for $150. They will turn the crank for $100. Some one I trust is coming over tonight to check it out and give me an opinion. I'll update you guys after. Thanks

Thanks guys.

 

Dang you got good pricing

 

Well thats good to hear! I'm sure they are all hurting for work like the rest of us right now.

Thanks for you help. I appreciate it.

 

Well the rebuild shop quoted me $600 for the following. What am I missing in the quote?

Bore cylinders as much as needed
grind and polish crank as needed
install cam bearings
reface head mating surface
3 angle valve job including magnaflux

 

inspect and resize rods
press pins and connect pistons to rods

does the valve job include new guides? It should

Does that price includes cleaning the block?

 

Press pins in new pistons yes.

The guides in my heads are cast.

OOO dunno about the cleaning. I'll ask

inspect and resize rods dunno. I'll ask.

Thanks!

 

if you keep coming back saying you got more done for only $600 I'm going to be jealous......well, actually envious

 

if your gonna have all that done ask how much to zero deck the block?

 

What does zero decking the block mean?

Sorry torque but they said the $600 would be everything.

 

food for thought, it may be cheaper to purchase a new short block than to rebuild. http://sdparts.com/category/gm-perfo...s-short-blocks what ever your budget allows

 

Wow! Those are great prices! That might be the way to go. Thanks