midge54

So this 355 I'm buying has cast number of 14102193 heads with block number 3970010 now the owner of the engine says I won't see much improvement from adding Vortec heads is that true or false. Vortec heads cost about 175 a side plus the carb intake so is it worth changing

skinny z

While I don't have any direct experience with the 193 heads, by most accounts on the internet (take that for what it's worth), they're not worth much.
As far as Vortec heads, there isn't an OEM head that will provide better results in stock form. They have their limitations however I think it's safe to say they're far beyond the 193's.

midge54

From what I read they are 350 swirl heads that are decent power from idle to 4500rpms after that they suck but my car will prob never see 5k Rpms so I'm wondering if it's worth the cost

skinny z

Ultimately the decision is yours however, it's guaranteed the Vortecs will make more power EVERYWHERE in the rev range compared to the 193's.
They excell in low to mid lift flow and will build more low engine speed torque. The bonus is better fuel economy too (not sure it matters to you). If you don't expect to be beyond 5k then they can comfortably used in stock form so the need for head upgrades aren't needed. The dedicated intake manifold throws a wrench into the budget however the Vortecs have been around long enough that the manifolds are showing up in the parts for sale classifieds.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

WRONG...TBI head will actually do better than the vortec up through about 3,500 rpm and the Vortec will really only pull ahead above 4,500 enough to be noticeable. As for low-end torque the TBI head has it all over the vortec.

midge54

FAST355 i was anxious to here your thoughts after reading many posts about your experience with TBI heads, specifically the 193's. With that being said i have never ported heads but understand that porting these heads can really help the flow of these heads. The guy had them machined, new seals, springs and everything, but did not have them ported. How hard is it to port these heads, should i practice on my old 416 heads and then move over to my 193s or should i have someone do them for me. What things should i look at when porting. Also can anyone guesstimate horsepower out of this motor. it has 193 heads, obviously, 355 with flattop pistons, some higher end ones, although i cant remember the name, has a cam with a max lift of 510. with a street dominator intake and my factory q-jet carb. Guy said its somewhere in the 300's

Danny515

Midge, I've actually used both of these heads (193's on my brothers 350 and vortecs on my 355) with mixed results. Ive actually taken up amateur porting kinda teaching myself also. I can offer my advice but thats about it. You also have to take into consideration that my different setups are exactly that - different setups.
THe 193's were decent every day TBI castings for what my bro was looking for. Not to mention what he could afford - they were laying around my garage. I agree with Fast355 for the most part, but in my experience with any overbore/stroked motor thats looking for a high flowing head, these will poop out before 3500rpm and you will be looking for more above about 3k rpm. If you are looking for cheap, and you have them handy, go for it.
I opted to start with stock vortec 906 castings. Now I can't stress this enough - regardless of what they tell you or how recent they were in the shop - always have them mag'd. I can speak from first hand experience that there are tons of cracked castings floating around out there - I ended up with 3 cracked sets before I got my hands on a good set. They will mainly crack starting in the exhaust seat going outward, or around the head bolt holes. Watch this carefully. Once I got my good set, I grabbed a cheap generic dremel for $35 bucks, watched a ton of online tutorials, and gave it a shot.
For me at least, what I found to be the key until I got the hang of it was not to start with a cutter or bit, but to start with an 80 grit sanding roll. By starting with an 80 or 120 grit, it will take you 16 times longer to make any progress, but you are on the safe side of not removing too much material unless you leave the sander sit in one spot forever. Once I saw how it needed to be done and what not to do, then I moved on to the stones and cutters. Its not as hard as you perceive it to be in your head, but the whole point is to watch and listen to experienced porters or even vid's online on what not to do.

Danny515

As for the vortecs, I have read and listened to literally hundreds of opinions on them. As with anything there are pro's and con's, and as with anything there are people who have never run a set but will tell you everything about them and people who have run a hundred sets and give you bad info. I had to do alot of sorting before I went into my first build with them. As I said, first have them checked. If you can get your hands on a pair for around the same price as the 193's, my personal opinion is go for it. I grabbed my set for $150 bucks. That was before new springs for increased valve lift, machined pushrod holes for aftermarket rockers, general machining (mag, tank, etc) and non aligning rockers and guides. When all is said and done, I love their street performance. The low end response and torque is very nice, especially after some easy and minor port and bowl work. They put out good flow #'s and as long as the port/bowl work isnt too much they are a great head for the money - if you can grab a set relatively cheap. Big key if you are going to port them yourself - do not do too much inside their ports - especially on the short side radius. I would suggest nothing more than smoothing out the short side radius as it is a huge key to the design.
This goes for heads, cam, manifold, carb - it all comes down to what you honestly and realistically intend to use the car for. If you are going to toy around on the street and hit the track once a year, then you wont be content with a full out drag car and vice versa.
I was building my 355 for a 78 Malibu that I wanted to be able to cruise on a nice night, but I also wanted to get into the low 12's/high 11's when I hit the track. The only solution I could come up with was build a streetable motor that could handle a whole lot of the juice.
You wanna hear the ultimate low budget build? Chevy Hi performance or Car Craft got nothin on this
I searched everywhere - finally found a short block a guy had in his garage that his brother gave him - checked it out and found as it was it was clean, couldnt have had more than a few thousand miles, and was a full forged setup. For $200. Now it took a ton of time, but I had a solid start. Took out assembly, cleaned everything up, simple hone and all tolerances and clearances were just right. Found a set of vortec heads (finally) for $150 bucks. Cleaned up the valves, minor port/polish on my own, ordered higher lift stock replacement springs, seals and retainers - $110.
(Here's where the older guys will laugh) - found an old quadrajet for $25 and ordered a full rebuild kit including all upgraded parts (needle, seat, jets, rods, etc) for $75 and rebuilt it myself - after alot of time and aggravation.
Traded some old parts to a guy from online for a brand new aftermarket vortec manifold - $0.
Gaskets etc $90.
I cheated a bit cuz I had the nitrous kit already. But for less than $1k, even though it cost me alot of time and scrapes and blood, I now have a hell of a beast that I run on a 200 shot of NOS every now and then and it takes it like nothin - hit my 11+ sec mark even in that heavy beast

skinny z

Show me one single test where the 193's outperform the Vortecs. No porting. Box stock.

You didn't mention anything about porting in your 1st post. Once you get the cutters involved then all bets are off. There's no fair way to do any meaningful comparison unless you have the same person port each head to it's maximum capability and test them on the same dyno.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...heads-why.html


You can try and be that guy that makes them fast if you want... I decided to go with a more proven combination.

skinny z

Nice bit of information.
I would have liked to have seen the stock 193 flow curve.

midge54

Well I took the plunge and ordered a set of remaned Vortec heads

skinny z

Are they modified in any way? Screw in studs, guide plates, better springs?

midge54

Not that I'm aware of they will be here thurs or friday

skinny z

There is a ton of information out there about their limitations regarding maximum lift and such. I've used them in stock form as well as machined (but unported). Lots of potential for very little dollars, comparatively speaking.

midge54

The cam in this motor is supposed to have a lift of 500 or 510 he said he's been running it in those 193 heads unmodified, so will the Vortec heads be safe with that cam, also the 193 has new springs and everything so could I swap everything into the Vortec heads or not

skinny z

The spring swap depends on the spring used. Vortecs have a small diameter spring (1.3 od ) while the 193 may have 1.43" spring. Then again, if you're getting a remaned set of Vortecs the spring pockets may have been done by the previous owner.
You'll have some measuring to do.
A cam with .500" lift will definitely not work on the Vortecs unless a) you use a beehive style spring whether it's the Comp version, the GM LS6 or equivalent or b) have the spring pockets machined to accept a more traditional spring (1.43" diameter) with a taller installed height. IIRC the Vortec stock spring installed height is 1.7" which is partly where the lift limitation comes from. The retainer hits the valve stem seal.

midge54

What confuses me is that the guy I am buying this motor off of has stock 193 heads on this motor and is running that cam in it, is there that much difference between the two heads

Danny515

Midge - there is a night and day difference as far as lift between those two heads.

The 193's would be considered a standard small block type head set up. You could do no machining, toss a good set of standard diameter springs (that could handle the lift and avoid float) and be done with it and handle all kinds of lift into the 500-600 range. Simple.

THe vortecs are a different story. The way they are produced, there is a clearance issue between the retainer and the top of the valve guide seal - so when you get above the mid 400's in lift you run the risk of that retainer smacking into the top of the seal/guide. The older sbc heads dont have this problem. ALso, the stock vortec springs are a smaller diameter than a standard older sbc valve spring. So, you can just take a valve spring for ex off of another head that has a 1.43 diameter and toss it on a vortec head with a 1.29 diameter unless they machine the seat so that the larger spring will fit correctly.
One option for alot of the older standard heads was to just leave the springs alone and run a big cam, or toss a set of aftermarket or z28 springs with a higher pressure/or different installed height to handle to higher lift - just swap springs, no machine work.
For the vortecs, you have only a few options - you can have the guides machined down so that the clearance becomes larger between the retainer and guide. You can have the seat opened up to accomodate a larger, stiffer old style spring. You can use a stock diameter vortec spring (beehive type) and a lower profile retainer that will allow you the increase lift (no machining) because they eliminate that clearance problem.
In my case, I opted for the beehive type spring/retainer combo only because if I decided to go another route with heads, I could take them off, swap the stock springs and retainers right back on and sell them as stock, or if I ended up where I had a problem and had to swap a head for some reason, I don't have to have any machining done to the new head.
It is very common and popular to have them machined to accept earlier, standard type springs because then it opens up a larger selection of springs/combos you can choose from because you would be able to swap almost any spring/combo onto them that you choose. Either way the bottom line is that if you go about either of these choices, you will gain the ability to run the increased lift without a problem if done correctly.

One more note - the vortecs run a self aligning rocker arm. If you are going to run anything bigger than a 1.5 arm, I would suggest machining the push rod holes on the heads. It is suggested to have them drilled to a 1 inch opening to avoid interference with pushrods if you are running a larger rocker.
And if you decide to swap to a standard non-aligning rocker then you have to also change to guideplates. Trust me, I tried it without guideplates or machining the pushrod holes - not a good idea

Danny515

And again, just my 2 cents worth. SOme guys are preferential to some heads. Just what they like. You would have alot of guys come into this post and tell all of us that we are a bunch of idiots for even talking about 193's and vortecs cuz we should buy some AFR's or Dart's and be done with it. But those are also the guys that generally have a larger budget and can drop $1k-2k on a set of heads. I can't do that. So my alternative was to get a set of vortecs for 100-150 and order around $100 worth of parts, take my own time which costs me nothing, and make the best out of them. And in my opinion I got more than my moneys worth as far as the ability of the heads versus what I had to spend on them.
I've never taken the time to look into the 193's enough to talk educated about them. Just used them on my bro's mild 350 build. And again it comes down to what you have available and what you can afford. My thought is if you take a set of 193's and spend a ton of money in machining, parts, port work etc and you could have afforded a set of nice aluminums instead then it doesnt make much sense to me because they will never perform like a badass aftermarket set. But if you have a solid set in the garage like we did, and spend minimal money and some time to clean them up and give them a port/polish and you can't spend the money on a nice set, then why not.

Don't expect 193's or vortecs to perform like a $2k set of heads - if they did, A) they would cost alot more B) everyone would buy them up and you wouldnt be able to find them.
For a guy like me, I like them because I can get the type of flow for a nice street motor out of a less expensive head, and with some searching you can find older stock sets off stock motors pretty regularly and spend a much smaller amount of money to get them ready to bolt on and perform how you want them.

midge54

So I'm going to have to spend more money to get these Vortec heads to run this cam. Kinda sucks considering I spent 350 for the heads, and 140 for the Vortec intake

midge54

What lower retainers should I be looking at, can someone provide links

skinny z

Do you know what springs are on the Vortecs now?
Something that should be mentioned after re-reading your earlier post. You say that you don't expect to rev much beyond 5k. That implies a cam suited to that rev limit and that said, more or less eliminates any cam with lifts in the .500" range. (For the record, as far as I'm aware, just about any shelf grind camshaft with a half inch lift has duration numbers that will produce peak hp beyond 5 000 rpm.)
So the question should be asked, are you going to run a big cam with the higher rpms associated with it? Makes all the difference in the world when specifying a valve train.
Can you find out exactly what cam is in the short block you have?

midge54

Well I am picking the motor up tomorrow how can I tell what's in it, the guy swears it has a 510 lift but doesn't remember the specs on it and swears he ran a stock converter on it before says the duration at .50 is around 224

skinny z

That really complicates things with not knowing what cam you have.
That said based on what he tells you, assume he's right and go from there.
224 degrees at .050 with a 510 lift are the same specs I'm currently using with my Vortecs. That's a hydraulic roller with 1.6 ratio rockers. Peak power is at 5500 rpm and pulls well to 6500 which is were I shift from 1st to 2nd when at the track.
Wait to see what your heads have in the terms of modifications (if any) and make your decisions from there.

midge54

he did tell me that the cam was a flat tappet cam. SO im looking at either having to machine my vortec heads, get different springs, or buy a more mild cam to better suit the stock heads, which is better/cheaper

skinny z

I think you owe it to yourself to at least find out what you have for a cam.
And yes, if your goals are less than what the potential specs of the cam you're getting offer, then you'll benefit from something smaller. Particularly if you don't have the rest of the parts in support.

skinny z

That said, the easiest route to getting more lift out of a Vortec spring package is to go to a beehive style spring. That will provide the additional retainer to guide clearence you need for the cam. There are several options for springs as mentioned. No machining needed.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ade/index.html

https://store.gmperformanceparts.com...umber=12589774

midge54

i hate asking so many questions but how can i find out what cam i actually have in this engine, the cam i originally wanted to get when i was getting the goodwrench motor had a lift of 442/465, will that clear the vortec heads, and will the lifters in the motor support that cam?

midge54

all, off topic, skinny z i was your from ontario, what part, i usually vacation in campbellford every summer

Danny515

As far as which is cheaper kinda depends. I ordered a specific kit (springs, retainers, keepers) for my vortecs from Alex's parts and ordered the viton valve seals while I was at it and I think mine was around $125-$150 including shipping. I didnt have to spend anything else and got up to a 550 lift and retained the valves that were on the heads because they were in really good shape, even though im only running at 525.
To have the seats and guides machined may only run you 30-50 bucks like you said earlier but then you would have to buy a new set of springs and retainers anyway which could end up costing more overall.

midge54

and as i said the more mild 442/465 cam is $59 shipped from summit and seems to fit my range better, being idle to 5500rpms, so that may be the route i go, unfortunately ill have a cam laying around, but is there any markings or anything on the cam to determine exactly what it is

skinny z

Asking a lot of questions isn't a big deal but you should be prepared to take on a lot of research. Buying a lump and going fast is lot different than assembling the correct components and doing the same.
As far as the cam goes, the only real hope you have in identifying it is to pull it and get the manufacturing id. Then with any luck it's something current and the info will be available. Yes you could measure it but that's something else all together.
Do you know anything else about the engine? Piston type, deck height? Your cam selection is tied directly to your potential compression ratio. More research.

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

New cam = new lifters too. The .465 in all probability would work with STOCK Vortec hardware but you'll have to measure the clearences.

skinny z

I went the Comp 26918 route and it costs considerably more. I've purchased another set (of 26918s) for my RHS heads and you're into 300 bucks all in.
I hadn't really done much research otherwise but I was anywhere there were less expensive alternatives. Do you anything about the LS6 springs that are supposed to be drop-ins too? What are the Alex springs?

midge54

the engine has flat top pistons, not sure what brand, he told me and it was too noisy in the shop to hear, stock deck height, guy had this motor in his s10 for about 5k miles then pulled it.

skinny z

Cambellford is a couple of hours from my place. I'm about an hour north of Toronto. I had friends out that way years back.

midge54

Yea so your probably about 3 hrs away because we went to the toronto zoo last year and it took 2hrs from campbellford. I love going there, specially for the pike and muskey fishing, going again end of june.

Danny515

You are probably safe with that 442/465 cam but you should check your clearances to be sure.
If it is a name brand cam, you should be able to find a stamping with a # on it so that you can look it up to check actual specs.
As far as lift - any cam you select will generally give you lift #'s with 1.5 rockers. If you take a 450/450 cam and swap out to 1.6's you will then take your lift to 480/480 So even if the cam you choose gives you lift #'s with a 1.5 rocker, you can always increase that total lift by running 1.6's instead.

Like Skinny said, probably as far as easier and cheaper, your best bet would be to run a stock vortec 1.29 diameter spring in a beehive style with the different/modified retainers to be able to run a higher lift.

See if he still has the cam card or at least a part # that you can reference on the cam. If not you will have to look and see if there is a part #. Ive had guys swear alot to me before, but it doesnt make it so. You cant base your build off of something someone else thinks they remember cuz if they are wrong or remembered it incorrectly you will be making changes and not know where you started.

If you can't figure out what cam it is or what the specs are: my suggestion would be to swap the stock springs for the beehives and retainers so you know your heads are set for a 550-600 lift regardless, run the cam with 1.5 rockers and see how it feels. If you like where the powerband is, then just go to a 1.6 rocker to get more flow under the same powerband. if you want to move the powerband up in the rpm range then you can go with a different cam to do that. But you will already know that your springs are set to handle the increase in lift

skinny z

[QUOTE=midge54;5197187] ...so your probably about 3 hrs away ...QUOTE]

I know a short cut.

skinny z

Do some compression ratio calculations. Pick a cam suited to that.
Call Comp Cams or Lunati and talk to a tech. They'll give you some insights based on the info you give them. That'll help you with your choice. Personally I think you'll like the shorter cam (compared to a potential 224 degrees duration with the other flat tappet).

Danny515

Alex's parts is a small company that sells different products - including valve springs for certain applications. I never used them before, and ran across them as an alternative to Comp. Even LS6 springs can get pricey. The comp set I was looking at was right about the same - 300 or so. And the LS6 set I was looking at didnt include retainers or keepers and was somewhere around 250.

midge54

what do you mean by a shorter cam, the 442/465 cam, cause thats the cam i personally chose before buying this 355 because of the power range, fair idle, and the fact it runs stock converter. i want the car to have a slight lop in the idle but i dont want it to sound like its about to shut off at the light.

midge54

also do vortec heads on standard block require special headgaskets?

Danny515

You can go shopping on comp and Lunati's sites and the more you look at cams, you will see they have taken alot of the guesswork out of it. The descriptions will tell you what the cam is best suited for (stall size, rear size, motor mods, etc) and you can get somewhat of an idea of what specs you would like your cam to be at. It depends alot on what rpm range you want it to work best in.

For example I had a Lunati 60102 for a while. Nice cam, great price for the set. it was a 219/227 duration @.050 with a lift of 468/489 with 1.5 rockers. It suited me nice while I was cruising my car and wanted enough power to get up and go before I upgraded the trans and I think it is a great 268 cam.
I upgraded to a slightly bigger cam later which was the Lunati 60103 - 227/233 dur @.050 with 489/504 lift with 1.5's. That was a bit lumpier of a cam and offered more duration with a bit more lift, but moved my primary power band up to the 2000+ range, which I liked when I was using the car more as a weekend warrior and upgraded to a 2800 stall.
The one difference in the two is the LSA - the first one was a 112 LSA (bit more mannered for the street and idle) and the 2nd one was a 110 LSA (still not very radical but a noticeable difference in the "lumpiness" of the cam when combines with a bit more duration)
So it will really depend on what you want to use the car for and what your honest and realistic goals are. Nothing wrong with going with a bit smaller cam now so you get decent power and street manners, and then upgrading later when you get bigger stall and want to race more.
I think right now if you will be driving it every day then I would agree with skinny that you may prefer a shorter duration cam or at the very least something with a 112 LSA to make it feel better on the street. The Lunati 60102 or something along those lines should give you better manners but still that nice sound

Danny515

No special gaskets for the heads. I use a .039'' thick Fel pro gasket - maybe $35-40 a piece. You could go with a thinner gasket if you wanted to reduce quench and bump compression a few tenths, but I was at 10.2:1 with a .039'' gasket so I'm not looking to bump any more than that. I may swap out to a .041'' higher perf gasket this year to actually get compression down closer to 10 and upgrade to a better gasket but a standard sbc head gasket is fine

Danny515

The vortec heads were made specifically to fit on the older blocks.

midge54

im really only going to drive this on the weekends, not planning to track it, since its an anniversary edition, i dont want to bust it up racing it

Danny515

Here is one thing to remember about your cam.
Generally speaking if you from one cam to another to get a higher lift, generally you will get a cam that not only has higher lift but a longer duration which will move your powerband up in rpm's.
If you like where your power comes in but simply want some more flow and to increase lift, then you can swap to a 1.6 rocker. That will give you more lift and flow but through the basically the same powerband you already have ( with maybe a very small change). SO if you have a cam that you like for the street, you can simply swap to a larger rocker, keep the power in the same basic operating range, and pick up a few horses in that range.
Whereas if you swap to a cam with a bigger lift that also has longer duration specs, you will pick up horses in the operating range of the cam, but will move the primary powerband up in the rpm range and alter the way your engine/car behaves in the lower rpm range.
Which is why I would agree with skinny that you will most likely be happier with a cam with a shorter duration - what that will do is operate in a range of say idle to 5500 for example or 1500-6000. This will make it behave more like a daily driver and less like a drag car.
If you check out the Lunati 60102, it may suit what you are looking for at least for the time being - its a pretty streetable cam.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Either I missed some key information about the current machine work that has been done to the heads, or you are way off.

You simply cannot say that any unmodified vortec head will go 550- 600 lift by just swapping springs and retainers.

You have to measure. I did. It would be impossible for me to even go .550 without the retainer hitting.

I strongly suggest going ahead and spending the ~$125 to have the guides cut and screw in studs installed. Then you wont have to worry about it.

skinny z

If you haven't already, read this article.

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html