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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
The MC is in and bled with new Dot3. Racing Dot4 (that's about 5 times the price) will go in once I don't have to bleed any more. The car will stop in drive and reverse. Now to take it out of the driveway and adjust the prop valve.
Also I noticed oil pushing out from under the valve cover on the DS while revving. I remembered that I was trying (I think it's a new kind) rubber covered metal VC gasket which I had yet to install on the DS. I pulled the cover to install that and saw that some roller rockers needed a bit of sideways adjustment to sit on the valve tops properly so I straightened those up.
I'm working with Bob at DynamicEFI to get the EBL system. I have a new heated NB02 ready for the stock location and a WB02 jus down from the Y-pipe.
I'm starting right up cold and hot but running rough in cold open loop and hunting in closed loop so I will be checking for problems, maybe MAF related.
*Made sure the coil bracket had a good ground
*Connected the knock sensor (oops)
*connected loose #1 spark plug wire (oops)
*tightened the battery terminals (probably the thing that fixed it)
*started removing the handy wire nuts and soldering and heat shrinking wires.
Moving on to shaking down lately, consulting the experts here as to why I get a lot of chugging, lack of power and richness. No codes being thrown, TunerPro seems to be sending good data but every little while BLM and INT bounce crazy like.
Consensus was bad MAF, bad O2, or bad ECM, or all 3 bad. Ok so that's a short list of all the important stuff.
Yesterday was track day so I headed to the road course determined to run even with the tune off. Noticed before I left that I had a spare MAF the PO gave me I forgot about. Coolio. Still only have the hot side hooked up, impellers are exposed.
On the way I went thru a rainstorm. I have the hood off and the MAF is silicone tube right to the TB so rain could possibly go in. uh-oh. But I went thru the storm uneventfully.
After the storm I had to stop and when I went to restart the car it would barely start, then chuggle at about 400 RPM. Any gas I gave it and it would die. Fuel pressure OK, nothing wet or disconnected. Now I'm thinking the rain killed the MAF. So I disconnected the MAF and it started right up. I connected the MAF and it died. OK so definitely bad MAF. Off I went towards the track with the MAF disconnected.
On the 5 or so hiway miles to the track I realized the car has been running the same as before the storm, just like now with no MAF. So I've been logging with a partially failing MAF and I at least know now it is bad but not throwing codes and a spare at home that hopefully works.
I ran at the track with no MAF! Well it would not go above 70 and it was kind of grumpy the whole time but hey at least I got some track time.
Ran home about an hour of hiway driving same grumpiness with the SES light on of course.
I'm not able to work on the car till next week, can't wait to see if the replacement MAF makes a difference. Hopefully it will.
Swapped in the other MAF, it idled better but popped in the plenum like crazy when driving. I noticed the grams at idle about double what they should be. Maybe that's why the ECM is adding fuel, to air that is not really there. But I thought hi INT and BLM were the result of the 02 sensor readings. Anyways another bad MAF and/or something else too.
Tired of messing around, moving on to the EBL. Should be here this weekend.
Installed a MAP sensor, removed the MAF and MAF two relays.
installed the heated O2 sensor
installed the EBL, installed the USB to serial driver, installed the software. Modified one of the bin's for my larger injectors (thanks Rbob for clarifying exactly which I have) and 2 bar MAP sensor. Flashed the bin into the EBL. Super cool!
I was worried since I've invested some time in TunerPro that switching to the EBL WUD would have wasted my time. Once I started looking at WUD I realized everything I need and more is already right there. Rbob thought this thing through!
Fired right up and idled better than with the MAF and those problems.
After closed loop INT and BLM climbed high and stayed.
Rbob helped me isolate the new heated O2 reading zero mV. I fixed a small leak at the band clamp near the O2 but still 0 mV.
Last night I put the new O2 and the old in the fiery BBQ. The old seems to report mV
more consistently. I swapped it in this morning and straight away was reading 500mv at idle. Once I got into closed loop INT and BLM seemed to be stable. I'm ready to tune!
Doh then I had to go to work :-\
Can't wait to start road testing and getting some VE learning and flashing done. Then I can get the cold side hooked up and do some more tuning.
Thanks for stopping by Orr, said it in post 1 and I'll say it again in post 108, your efforts are what inspires me!
Making temp wiring permanent, hooking up the cold side, the intercooler piping prevents regular size battery on either side, so I'm hoping to go with something like this DS front where the original battery sat.
I've just got a lot of restarts as I test and EBL tune and I suspect I might get only a couple seconds cranking with that little battery. Usually it starts right up so I think that will be ok but of course gotta test.
I think the heated O2 is acting up, it's generating voltage per the EBL WUD but I also see WUD showing going open loop at seemingly random times while driving.
In plumbing the intercooler I'm forcing hot air from the turbos through it for the first time which is making the radiator and fans work harder. It got up to 240* and only fan one was on, fan 2 did not come on. Later I see that fan 2 default is like 245*. I grounded fan 2 and it came on so I think I will set up a manual ground for fan 2 for the time being and lower fan 1 in the EBL.
I've had an Autometer 2 gauge pod and a boost gauge laying around for a year or two, hopefully get to use it soon. Rbob says to tune before boost though.
BTW Rbob / EBL has been awesome with daily feedback on that I'm doing right and wrong. I see his comments on TGO going back more than 10 years. That's commitment!
Oh and a beautiful 88 GTA notchback stopped by. Turns out he lives in my neighborhood. This is one of about 700 made.
It's been a couple months but the project is still going...
I had a setback where the new racetronix fuel pump would not hold pressure, replaced it with an aeromotive. Replaced the fuel filter and AFRP too.
On a short drive generated some boost for the first time, about 5 lb, but don't have any vac/boost lines connected to the BOV or WG's so that is what's next.
I was using only one 600w battery which would crank the car only a couple times. I've added another 600w battery in parallel so that the charge pipe comes up between the two batteries which sit in the DS battery tray. The car cranks a lot now and the batteries recharge quickly even on the battery tender jr.
The brakes are still a PIA, not spongy but very hard and front only, cannot get the backs to work even with the adjustable prop valve. I'm going to a buddy's soon to watch him bleed them, maybe the 4th time will do it. I have the aluminum PBR rears, rebuild kits are history.
Had some weird behaviour, decided to remove the charge pipe and make sure the VE learns were good before moving on to boost. Drove about an hour to the track for some easy road course pace laps. Could tell it was missing and at least one exh leak. On the way back it was dark and have the hood off while crusing and look at that cherry red turbo housing on the driver side. Hmmm...
So get home, put on new header lock washers I've had staring me in the face for 2 mo, put on the injector clips (maybe that rear injector wire will not come loose now haha) and change out all the completely fouled out spark plugs.
And just for kicks what is the base timing again? -4? WTH? I've been tuning with a negative base timing? OK then...
Start tuning all over again with just a few small mods to the 3005 base tune that comes with EBL.
Now she's breaking the tires loose between shifts and WOT blasts are smooth with good power. No pinging. EBL making only small corrections over only 3 tunes.
I'm now edumacating myself on the next tuning steps with the EBL and Rbob's help.
After a couple wrong ways and corrected by Orr's suggestions, I've plumbed the lower WG ports to see only boost, not vacuum (using a one way valve). Boost will help open the WG and using a manual valve (MBC) between the one-way valve and the WG's allow control of how much boost get's built based on the spring in the WG + boost pressure.
And I've plumbed full time vac/boost to the BOV. So boost keeps the BOV closed and I need to make sure the BOV spring matches max (decel) vac to open it.
Prolly doesn't make much sense but onward thu the fog...
Was at the road course last week, ran up to 10 lb boost with no problems. That put me to 110mph on the back stretch.
* I'm flopping around in the seat on the corners, gotta do something about that.
* I was starting to run over 220d with it being only about 75d outside, need a bigger rad that stock. IC and trans cooler in front of the rad. NOS air dam installed and 2nd fan I have on a switch to run all the time.
* going to get the WB02 installed and hooked up to the EBL but I have a couple pinhole leaks in the area so I gotta seal those up first.
* fixed the loose turbo drain lines (was that me making the smoke on the track?)
* upgraded the seats to Corbeau A4 (started a new thread on that)
* increased the spring pressure on the BOV to put me over 10 psi
* installed the cc951 Champion radiator. Nice piece!
* cut one front spring. Hmm prolly should do the other before driving. Cut one whole coil expecting a 2" drop but got way less. Need to figure out what to do with both. Note to tighten the A-arm bolts after loading the suspension not before. And make sure one hole in the A-arm is uncovered by the spring.
* welded closed some pinhole leaks in the exhaust.
So gotta weld the seat brackets and figure out the springs.
Of course insurance and tags are due so should I make it legit or go racing?
How do you like the A4s? I have a set of CR1s that have held up well, I think it's been about 15 years and 40-50k miles, maybe a bit less. I noticed that Corbeau offers seat bottom trimming as well as heaters and lumbar support. Did you get any add ons, or just get the seats as-is? I would have loved to have had the seat trimmed as I'm 6'4" and the lumbar support (maybe it's just that I'm getting old now).
Love the build and glad to see it's all coming together, even if it feels like slow progress.
I'm still trying to get the right fit for the DS seat, I will update that thread with progress. There is a fine line between headroom and legroom for us tall dudes and aftermarket seats. I got the shaved option and lumbar. I'm in FL so heat is bad but maybe if they offered a cooled seat...
Changes since the Feb track visit were new seat installed (will update that thread), new Champion CC951 aluminum 3 core, and an oil breather catch can since the PCV and valve cover breather was spitting oil (too much ring blowby, uh oh here comes a ring job)
A couple fast pace laps first. The seat was a big improvement, feels like I'm part of the car now rather than sitting in it. The engine stayed cool. Still maxing at about 10lb boost and it seems to bleed off boost despite RPM staying up and pedal staying down. Think the BOV spring is too weak. And I think the WG's are opening to soon even though I put boost on top to hold them shut for the time being. Lots of whooshing so it's kind of hard to tell.
Then on to race laps. As I get to the back stretch the first time and put the pedal down the boost comes up and then a loud FOOM! the boost shoots to 15 and the car lurches ahead like it has a shot of nitrous. Wow feels awesome - but something is wrong - through my earplugs and helmet the engine is really really loud. I ease up and at the end of the straightaway I pull into the pits. I don't see anything on top, but the exhaust is noisy and has definitely openned someplace. A crack in a pipe? Turbo split open? I look under the car and the Y-pipe has separated at the band clamp from the pipe going rearward to the muffler. Backpressure!
That's good news to me - now I know the exhaust backpressure is holding my boost down. I drive home with an open pipe. On decent acceleration boost goes to 15. I'm at 100 mph in no time. Cruising at 70 is LOUD. I realize even though they will let me back on the track with open pipes I think I will have a gigantic headache by the time I get there.
So it's new muffler time and full 3" all the way to the back.
Car was running crappy at the track so decided to tear it down.
Pieces from that hole gouged the cylinder wall 3/8" tall but I'm going to live with it.
I found 2 pistons with larger bosses on the sides. These are all stock pistons with GM numbers on the insides.
Wondering if this is all stock.
1. Anyone ever seen other stamped numbers on the top of stock piston? Like a punched digit indicating what cylinder it belongs in?
2. Anyone ever noticed different boss sizes on stock pistons?
Can't say I've ever seen them stamped for what cylinder it was in. Not sure why they would when new. Strange things happen at the factory so others may have seen different
Hadn't seen much here lately but wanted to say thanks for the build thread, I'm doing something very similar since last fall ( I'll try posting a pic). Info here has been really helpful, used the cardboard tube trick, knew when I started manual brakes were a must, didn't even think about my old MAF system, going right to EBL P4 when I get there. Turbos and wastegates done, down pipes done, intercoolers and most of that piping done, lots more to do. Hope it's OK to bug you once in a while with questions.
Very nice Brian. What are you doing for headers? Funny I can tell you haven't run it yet b/c the plastic cones on the strut towers are not melted!
It's been 6 mo and I've got the engine back together. Decided the chrome FrontRunner with power steering from Vintage Air was a must have so saved up for that and am installing.
I'm super annoyed at my crappy welding job so I'm contemplating redoing it, or just dumping the exhaust open near the rear LCA brackets. Exhaust leaks have an awful affect on tuning so I'm chasing a bunch of pinholes on the headers and downpipes.
Regarding the tube trick, I'm thinking of using the pie cut/lobster technique on the reweld for the twisty areas like DS b/w plugs 3 and 5. The Fabrication Series on youtube has encouraged me to do that.
I'm using truck manifolds upside down and forwards, cut the flanges off and welded T3 flanges on, we'll see how they hold up... I have a Lincoln welder that I converted from flux core to wire feed and it works much better tho some days I look good, other days out with the cut off wheel and grinder! And yes, pie cuts are the way to go. I bought a length of pipe with all my mandrel bends and I'm glad I did. Other than that first 90 bend off the turbo, it's all pie cuts rather than dicking around with the bends. That might be my talent level but it works.
What did you use for oil feed/ drain lines and fittings ? I'm running the same GT35's
Wow that DS downpipe looks super clean congrats I'm jealous!
Are you going to use bands or weld the rings? Bands seems to leak to often for me but on the PS I don't seem to have room to weld the rings.
For the oil supply I'm taking the feed off the back by the dist and push lock hose to the front where I tee off with fragola fittings to each turbo. I'm thinking of switching to ss lines past the T but that will be an easy change later. So far the pushlock seems to hold the temp ok.
For the oil return I had drilled two AN10 fittings in the fuel pump block off plate and drain there. The DS drain comes along below the crossover cold side pipe. The circular lip of my stock fans almost dug right through the DS drain line (!).
One big mistake that had me scratching my head was why the new turbos were gathering oil and slinging it everywhere. They were not draining. I disassembled and reassembled thinking they were plugged up. My son said "are you sure they are not upside down?" Duh. On mine the small fitting that bolts on with two bolts is the return, and the threaded hole is the supply. OK got it.
Down pipe was upside down in the vise making visual a little difficult, see pics below. I'm using bands, you're right about no room. I thought about ball sockets, same problem. I was able to use my 2.5" y pipe with a 2.5" to 3" coupler to the down pipe. Lot less pipe to cut. Thanks for the oil line info. My only problem is that it's a later block with no fuel pump block off plate so it's into the pan with two -10 AN lines or maybe teed into 1 or??? If anybody reading this has suggestions, let me know. And more thanks for the manual brake thread, I would have spent weeks trying to work around the manifold and steering column. Looks like Malibu Dave's Brakes gets the nod for that.
I'll check the turbo carefully for the right fittings before calling Sumitt. Everything here is 50% more with exchange. Just to make things more complicated, intercoolers are two small ones (TDI Jetta) under each battery tray. Not sure how effective they'll be but worth a try.
Here's some pics of the truck manifolds, 88-98 C10.K10 Yukon, Burb, etc. Try to get the ones without the EGR block on them. It was still a bunch of cutting, fitting, grinding but the price (junkyard) was right and I don't think there's headers out there I wouldn't have to do the same thing to. Once all the intercooler lines are done ( Oh, what size silicone coupler fits the TB?), brakes, oil lines, etc,etc, then its on to the ECM which in Cdn dollars will likely be discussed with the uh CFO.
Well it took me a year to rebuild the engine and during that time I
* Went to a bigger battery as shown. The old was two 50A 12v stereo boost (or ATV) batteries. They would crank the car a couple times then die. Then they died from abuse/age and after deciding I would not go to rear mount battery I squeezed this and the cold side in.
* Went with the chrome FrontRunner that is a thing of beauty
* Re-did the downpipes, learned how to do pie slices and bought a better welder and lost some bad welding habits
* Re-did the cold side pipes, not shown, with my slightly better welding skillz.
* Re-did the turbo feed lines under the plenum
* installed dual Spal fans
* removed a lot of unneeded wiring harness but left it open for troubleshooting
Right now you can see the cold side is not hooked up while I get a base tune going. More to come....
* Aluminum heads, stock compression
* stock but rebuilt bottom end after melting a piston
* TGO member custom built turbo logs
* ZZ9 cam, 1.65 roller rockers.
* custom built downpipes, 3", requiring removal of vac brake cannister
* Vintage Air Frontrunner accessory drive
* 42 Lb injectors
* .70 A/R turbos, intercooled
* EBL for fuel management, heated WB O2 sensor but started with a stock NB.
* Aluminum 3 row radiator, dual Spal fans.
The car smokes the tires in all three gears. I can only run part throttle you may have noticed no wastegates on right now. So I get to 14 psi really fast. By then the car is going sideways.
Over the past year I replaced the cones in the diff and tracked down a 4L80e core and disassembled prepping for a rebuild.
And I decided to change the cold pipe to dual pipes one from each turbo, not use the intercooler, and try methanol injection.
Well a lot has happened in the past couple months and I am reaching a plateau with this build. Special thanks to Street Lethal for carrying me through the tuning process. Some finishing touches and clean-up to do but otherwise the final stats include
* manual brakes
* Dynamic EFI's EBL computer
* 20% meth injection (she gets cooler the more boost I put in oh yeah)
*88 octane pump gas
* 42lb injectors reaching over 80% duty cycle as I approach 14PSI boost with an AEM boost controller.
* Keeping the AFR at 11-11.5 and timing down to 15* at WOT and full boost
* Open downpipes and wastegates
Overall drivability is basically scary on the street, wheels will break loose at WOT. The last visit to the road course was wet so could not really open it up but on the way back we had some fun with burnouts.
Quick update on this perpetual build. Over the summer discovered bent turbine blades, thinking it was loose metal scrap left inside after some minor log mods. Turns out some ring lands and skirts left their designated locations and visited the spinning blades on their way to the promised land. Plus discovered a scored crank (hmmm was that from idling with the pan full of water?) and worn guides (learned more about valvetrain geometry from that one.)
Test fitted the 4L80E while the engine was out to see how low that pan is, not sure I will do it due to all the other mods necessary to make it work and the $ that got redirected into the engine rebuild.
06-28-2017, 08:36 AM
