Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

There was only one Z28 that I know of that was supposed to come with the L98 and manual transmission (six speed), it was an early 90's prototype that never seen the light of day. Other than that I would agree, none exist that I know of, none sold to the public that is. You never know what GM has in their private toy box though, that's for sure...

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Regardless... It was what it was... Let's not derail this again. I enjoy this thread and don't really want to see it shut down. I own both F Body and a Fox... One of these days I want to take a Stock L98 car and stick a t-5 in it bone stock and see what it will run. Someone had a thread where he did that to a few 3rd gens back in the Early 90's and said they would run around 13.7's... which I think i really impressive compared to the t56 LT1 4th gens.

LittleBlueZ28

Id have to say I agree it is a drivers match. I own a bone stock (at the time) healthy 91 l98 with 66k on it fastest 1/4 14.2 @ 98. Met a guy at the strip that had a very nice bone stock 90 mustang gt 5.0, we made severial passes together at the local dragstrip out here. First pass we both spun a tad off the line he won door to door pulled a nose on me up top, second pass we both hooked I won leading from the line, third pass we both hooked and he won pulled a nose up top again. We continued to run like this all night long, most fun I've had at the strip because every time we were within tenths of one another. The first pass was the closest he won by .043 according to the timeslip. It truely is a drivers battle stock for stock. On the street you never really know what has been done to or just how wounded your opponents car is.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

What was his fastest run? More specs on it?

LittleBlueZ28

Lx 5.0 3.08 rear 5spd, he ran a best of 14.03 that night, as for his personal best I'm unaware of it. Side by side rundown of a typical pass. Me z28: 2.032 60' 5.919 330' 9.143 1/8 11.921 1000' 14.248 1/4. Him stang: 2.387 60' 6.153 330' 9.148 1/8 (he nosed me here) 11.897 1000' 14.103 1/4. Info is coming straight off the timeslip I have, we both had so much fun from the close run we cointinued to line em up all night long. I consistsntly tore him up in the 60' though....

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Cool to see some timeslip info on two stock cars. But man, that stang was reeling in hard on the top end! If he launched it a bit better and hit a 2.0 60 ft, I'd think he'd hit a high 13 second pass. Pretty impressive!

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I can't wait to swap a 5 speed in my 5.0... Since it is Auto it came with 3.27 (I believe), so with the 5 speed, goal is to get it to run consistent 13.9's bone stock with just a 5 speed swap.

I want to see how fast I can get it without touching the engine. It's my new DD while I tear my Formula apart for a restore and pull the new engine apart for some port work (11 sec goal with current parts)...

walkthelin3

I have to disagree on that. My bone stock 5 speed 88 305 formula had no issue beating a 2000 mustang gt. granted its a 4.6 but if im not mistaken, the relevance is that it makes more power then the 5.0 .. I have tpi too.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

You can't compare a Fox body to a 2000 GT, completely different.

walkthelin3

Why? It puts out more power then the 5.0 and it should be around the same weight. Not trying to start problems here.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

The Fox Body's are lighter I believe, and it's just a different car/engine/gearing etc.

You also see more factory freak Fox Body Mustang's running fast times than the SN95 ones.

It's apple to oranges IMO.

danziger

The 2000 GT 4.6 had an honest 260HP and 300TQ and even saddled with the AOD tranny, should have at least given you good run...if not beaten you outright.

walkthelin3

It did. Not going to lie.. Still overtook him

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The 5 speed LB9 cars were actually one of the quickest made. I knew a guy that use to run consecutive 14.5's in the quarter in one bone stock. Isn't that basically all the 4.6 liter stangs could do stock? IDK, looks like it'd be a close race on paper to me. I'd have no reason to doubt walkthelin3. Take into account for the driver of the mustang possibly being an amatuer, and the formula could easily beat it.

danziger

Sure...it should be a good race as I stated, but IMO the Stang would win more than 50% of the time. I guess I misunderstood the line "no issue beating" as it being an easy win for the Camaro...

b1k1w1

I'm glad I ran across this hope it goes on forever. Very few of my friends had camaros, nor have I raced one stock. But I have 91 rs tbi auto and got beat all the time because they are so so slow stock. My friends did little mods to the fox bodies and the car loved it. They were way lighter and suspension just work. Very little work to a fox and they are fast. I also meet people who spend 8k on engine and more on car and only hit 12s. So its not always how much its who built it!!! Stock for stock 350 I can see. Having a stock 350 was like the mustang guys wanting a trunk style because they were even lighter. They were not that easy to find. O and every ones car is stock just ask before you race them lol

Kevin Lee 487

You're comparing a POS Camaro setup to a best setup available to a Mustang. Theres a pretty big difference between a 305 TBI and a 350 TPI. Especially considering the weight of a Camaro.

b1k1w1

nope, gt is basic just like rs was. No special order, nothing special about it. Even made same hp as a 305 ho 220hp. The 350 only made 20 more hp that's not enough to over come weight difference. I wish it was not so but those guy have the advantage. If they do not mess up the hole shot they have you, and if they do you won. Stock for stock the camaro is racing the driver not the fox. I hate the mustang but they are fast. Now any thing not fox your right ford messed up and have been making it up ever since.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

A healthy bolt on 350 TPI can run in the 13's. Mustangs are not some godly end all car...everyone thinks they are because there is much more of an aftermarket for them, and more guys mod them than F-bodies. I have smoked my fair share of modded fox body mustangs in my old 305 TPI 5 speed trans am. They can, and have been beat plenty of times.

They are also not as light as you may think compared to an F body. A not so optioned out camaro will weigh around 3300 lbs. A mustang GT weighs about 3350 or so as well. They are close in weight unless you go with the LX 5.0 stang which was a bit lighter.

Kevin Lee 487

Fords " 5.0s " have been 302s AFAIK which is actually a 4.9

Comparing the 5.0 Mustang engine to the 5.0 LB9 ( or an L03 ) is a **** poor comparison. The general match up has ALWAYS been Mustang GT vs Camaro Z28 / SS which have used 350s ever since the L98 was dropped in. ( and even bigger if you feel like going back into the 60s / 70s )

And this whole " Mustang is generally faster " bit ended when 4th Gen F-Bodies hit the market and blew the doors off of any Mustang short of a Cobra.

Can't wait to get my WS6....

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

My Stock Automatic 90 GT weighed in at 3310 with GT500 Replica wheels which are heavier then stock... With stock wheels, and a 5 speed, I can see a GT weighing in around 3250 easy.

My Formula weighed in at 3290 with SFC, Heavier 4th gen seats, but with Aluminum heads, so the weight is prob close to stock.

So 3rd gen's do not come too far behind in weight at all, but a majority of Foxes will be lighter.

b1k1w1

stock curb weight is 3600lbs door sticker reads 4156lbs. So your 3290is not stock or the scale was broken. The 5.0 fox to 5.0 camaro was the norm not the 350 z28/iroc ( there is no third gen ss). So any 5.0 fox lx gt was up to the driver to lose stock to stock and bolt ons are not stock. But hey mod to mod that's a race!!! The stock 5.7 running 15.5 was boring. Its all in fun nothing worse then a mustang guy especially when they lose. You can't get them to shut up !

b1k1w1

also to repeat my self you can mod a car and make it run worse so of course they can be beat. You can also build yours up and race a stock or mild mod mustang and win. But hey you put that 330hp 350 crate or used vett engine in and it must be stock right lol

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Plenty of people have weighed in at plenty less than 3600... So don't call people out unless you have better proof. I used a legit scale, and I am sure most people on the Forum are not surprised at a Formula weighing in around 3300.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

...

Anybody got a can of Troll Repellant lying around??

b1k1w1

Your door sticker says 4160lbs your 900lbs less stock where is your proof. Mine is on your door from gm. The 3600lbs curb weight is from mag after mag. Gm was happy to get the zl1 vett down 3100lbs mabe you were lucky and got the light third gen at 3250 with sfc stock. Or mabe you miss read the word stock. Yes you can get the weight down (striped). So take your own advise show proof before you call some one out because mine is on your door. Don't feel bad every ones car is stock making 600hp just ask lol

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

You can move on now... Door stickers aren't very accurate.

b1k1w1

So you don't have proof I'm shocked!!! So bs does float

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Troll. Go find a different bridge...

midias

This spring I really have to take my car to the local scale and find out how much it weighs.

Kevin Lee 487

So you're comparing the mid range Camaro vs the Standard V8 Mustang....lmao. Camaros typically are heavier and have bigger engines.

Of course, the years of 1993 - 2002 the Camaro took a massive dump all over the Mustang. The Trans Am even moreso when you throw the WS6 Ram Air package in.

Also, this thread is titled. 5.0 Mustang vs 350 Camaro. The top of line 3rd gen Camaro came with a 350. That was the IROC-Z28 or an option in the standard Z28. The top of the line Mustang came with a 4.9 V8.

In all reality, the thread could imply a 94 or 95 Mustang with the Windsor engine vs a 1998-2002 Camaro with the 5.7 LS1 which would be a waste of gas for the Camaro.

b1k1w1

I like this bridge just need to clean off your bs!!! So no proof and I'm the troll lol. A 5.7 ls1 will beat the crap out of a stock 5.0. Or even a 5.7 lt engine they ran 14s stock. I can't get any of them to run me in my ss and the one that did I pulled away like he was sitting still.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The door sticker is not the actual weight. Anyone that knows cars will tell you this. There have been PLENTY of guys on this forum that have weighed thier cars on a real scale...no weight reduction or anything and they weigh around 3300 or so lbs. Plus or minus a few lbs for any options like T tops. A fully loaded third gen with an auto tranny and t tops weighs around 3450. The proof is out there, your just an idiot.

b1k1w1

wow I'm the idiot. I work on cars and do state inspects. So the story is that its the weight of the car plus passengers of average weight. So the proof mine is all the magazines government mandate and gm. Not you two telling stories of a stock third gen at 3300lbs witch is 860lbs difference. Not every one on her tells the truth like you to idiots. 3450lbs I can believe mags are not 100%. There was ac and radio delete but not 2290lbs stock your not the only ones to weigh your car and I will believe the mags over you two clowns any day. So show your proof if I'm wrong prove it. Till then talk about that stock 5.0 that kicked your butt. That fox has that reputation for a reason and they are still doing it. Don't worry I had that third gen when it was not cool the only thing that bothers me is sticking up for a pos ford.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...does-your.html

There is a thread just for you! Why don't you go to that thread and tell everyone they are wrong too!

I can agree that foxes do have a reputation... I just think they made way more 5.0 5 speed combo's than the desirable 350 TPI auto or 305 TPI 5 speed combo for F-Bodies.

I own a fox. Therefore I am already coming in with an unbiased opinion.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

When you find out your wrong, just think of me saying "I told ya so."

Big deal that you do state inspections. So you look at a car and check the blinkers and make sure the brakes work. I've owned my 86 trans am for 9 years. I know every little bit of info about it and these cars in general, and that includes the myths as well. When people say these cars are tanks, thats a MYTH. Read the above thread that was posted by bullydawg, and you will see that just about the heaviest ACTUALLY weighed 3rd gen is around 3450 or so. That is a fully optioned model with T tops, AC, auto trans, etc.

And lol at your fox body nutswinging. They are good cars, I'll agree, but every foxbody owner and thier mother has a heads/cam 302 making 300 HP. I don't care how you slice it, but making much more than that NA on a 302 is a tough task. The chevy 350 can easily make 400+ HP with similiar work. Theres no replacement for displacement, and ford mustangs havn't had displacement in a loooong time. Mustangs bone stock ran a mid 14 quarter mile on a good day. Thats what 305 TPI 5 speed cars ran as well as 350 TPI cars. It's a drivers race stock for stock, nothing more. Google is your freind...maybe you should try it out and check out some stock times for each car. Theres also a guy on here who posted a vid of a stock foxbody 5.0 5 speed and a stock 305 TPI 5 speed camaro racing. They raced 3 or so times...camaro beat it everytime, even from a roll. Heres the vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGpa7...el_video_title


So I think now it is YOU that has no proof of what your preaching.

v10viper04

I weighed my car a few years back and it came in at 3680 lbs. BUT that was with me in it and with my 12" subs and heavy *** box in the back. I feel I'm at the heavier end of the scale but my car also has just about every option. Plus iron heads instead of aluminum. Plus it was on an old un-certified scale so who knows how far off it was.... Why would a 3rd gen weigh more than a 4th gen or comparably to a 5th gen? 5th gens are HUGE compared to our cars...

midias

5thgen V8s are over 4000lbs

My friend weighed his 88 manual V8 on a local scale and it came in at about 3350lbs

Kevin Lee 487

I think the LS1 4th gens weigh the same as our 350 cars. Maybe a smidge more than some 3rd gens. Right around 3400lbs.

b1k1w1

wow did you read the post or just post in it!! The cars that said they were 3300lbs also said they were lightened not stock. So you had a third gen for 9yrs that's it. I had one since 1996 and 4 more plus 2 4th gen and 1 2nd gen. I have read every thing I could get my hands on about camaros and worked on them. So your 9yrs is a joke but if I'm wrong I will be the first to admit but you started the bashing you asked for proof with out having any your self. The other guys car is not stock or he lied in the other post so witch is it 3300 stock or not. In the other post you said you had work done but have not weighed yet. Hey thanks for more proof that I'm right.

b1k1w1

o I forgot vid, open your ears any one who has been around cars can hear the exhaust and know they are not stock. The 3400lbs guy also said he had an 85 at 3100lbs but you missed that I call bs on that. That would mean the camaro was 3000lbs and no one would cover that up 100lbs less then 2011 zr1 yeah right. You also messed the two that were stated at 3700lbs. And a fox gets over 300 every day you would know that if you know about engines. I would say they were wrong but they were not 3300lbs lightened sounds right to me

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Please get out of here. You have no facts...just useless assumptions since you think you know it all. There have been 2 guys that have replied to you already in this thread stating that they weighed thier cars and that they were nowhere near 3600 lbs. Both of thier cars are stock weight as well. How is this not sinking in yet? I have known 5 guys that have built heads and cam 302's in thier foxbodys. The highest HP one was 311 RWHP. The others were around 275-290 RWHP. The one that made 311 had top of the line trick flow heads, aftermarket intake manifold, big cam, etc.

Please, show me your proof because I'm still waiting. How can you come in here acting like a know it all and telling us we're all wrong when you just signed up to the forum last month? Do you know how rediculous you are making yourself look? It's the people like you that spread unwanted rumors about third gens being heavy tanks and being a brick compared to a fox body when in reality they are almost identicle in performance.

b1k1w1

so wait you did not start this post and the amount of time on here does not dictate how much you know. You started bashing me because I quoted a magazine when you had no proof. This is not rumor you don't have a 3300lbs car and then lighten to get 3300lbs with sfc!!I like this post. I made the commit based off of all the races I have seen not my 5 friends. Its really people like you that cause this problem. Your friend told you when he was bragging so it must be true. He states 3680 with box and him did not say it was stock. The other did not say stock or not. Aftermarket suspension is lighter then stock to by the way removing ac does mean its still stock. All of your proof does not help you helps me because you did not pay attention to what you are posting. Not that I care I'm just bored and read throw the post that matter. And lighter because of the fiberglass front end and even more with aluminum engine(4th gen). I'm sorry you opened you mouth not knowing what you were talking about so move on and let it go you are hurting your self this thread is about what people have seen. The commit was not to you or the other guy it was in general and really if you don't like it don't call people trolls because you don't agree with them. And last I cheaked there are hundreds of 302 over 400hp na. So last respond shows me you have no proof. So get back to subject so my op based off of factory reports and races I watched. mustang fox wins stock to stock due to weight difference and better traction.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I'm trying to tell you facts. I have been on this forum since 2005....do you not understand that I have seen hundreds of people post thier car weight and timeslips on here? You have such a thick head that you won't listen to anybody.

V10viper clearly said his car was "on the heavier side" and that it "has just about every option." And yet it still only weighed in at 3680 lbs with him and his sound system in it.

Lets see, Midias said his freind weighed his and it came in at 3350 lbs. He didn't say if it had AC or not, so how are you assuming it doesn't? You are making assumptions to try to support your losing battle. I really wasn't trying to be an *** to you, but you just will not listen to the people who know the facts and who are trying to inform you.

Heres a site dedicated to technical specs on an 86 trans am. Half way down the page under "general" it has the weight. 3408 lbs.

http://www.goingfaster.com/1986TA/86recarospecs.html

A trans am was the heaviest of the 3rd gens because of the ground effects and options. A formula with a 5 speed trans would probably be under 3300 lbs. These are facts, take it or leave it.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

WhitedevilTA- No more need to fuel his fire... he obviously isn't the smartest person. Lets drop the weight discussion and keep this on topic. I apologize for kinda derailing this thread everyone.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I would have given up anyways after my most recent response. Sorry for blowing up your thread!

b1k1w1

wow so finally you two got proof. What took so long I had it the first day. 3400 witch I said I could see but you keep going on like a witch hunt. Did you see how the others voiced there opinion without the name calling. You should learn from them!!! So let me help you out, you need it. You did say your car was 3300 stock right? If I know how to post web sites, motor trend did a compare in 86 on the top mustang and camaro stock. Weight 3300 camaro 3036 svo mustang both lightest order option striped, hp15 more mustang tq 40 more camaro both ran basicly same time 15.34 camaro 15.38 mustang www.prophetsofmadness.com/iroc-z/articles there's a lot about camaros on there. By the way that was stock striped I think g92 option. All well some people will always be ****** I had fun with debate but my parts got here so back to car. Your welcome for the 3300lbs proof

b1k1w1

All well did not work just google.

1983Chimaera

Since everyone seems to be all over the place here...

First off; The thread is 5.0L (Windsor 302 is assumed) vs 5.7L Chevrolet 350 (Gen I is assumed), so I will begin there. In their day, both of these engines were neck and neck constantly, even with the disparity in cubic inches. For the early thru mid 80's, the Mustangs had the distinct advantage over the GM cars, thru weight savings and earlier use of fuel injection, and that most F-Bodies were only available with the 305. Once the 350 was available, and the TPI system was introduced, GM started to give more competition to the 5.0L Mustangs. The later Mustangs also started to add weight via ground effects on the GT and Cobra cars. However, a lighter Fox body LX notchback against a much heavier Z28, IROC-Z, or Trans Am had a distinct advantage, even with the greater displacement of the 350. The later LT1 cars gained more power, but also suffered from more weight. The F-Body continued to gain pounds until their cancellation in 2002. The newer LS motors did put out considerably more power in stock trim, but Federal safety mandates added a lot of fat over the years (And price. A GT Mustang could be had for 2/3rd the cost of a Z28 or Trans Am in 2002! GM sales lagged badly in the last few years, hence the cancellation of both cars.)

Secondly, in a pure equal - for - equal sense, the 5.0L is not really a fair match against the 350. A 351W powered car would be the closest fair comparison. The only factory car available with such was the 1995 Cobra R Mustang, which would be most comparable to a 1995 Z28 Camaro LT1. For a true comparison to the 5.0L Mustangs you would have to compare the 5.0L powered F-bodies, most notably the 5.0L Firebird Formula. This is the most equal in price range, weight, and engine class. This argument is all of course if it's being claimed that it takes GM 48 more cubic inches to beat a Mustang? (j/kidding!)

Third, as for the later cars, the 4.6L is an overhead cam engine, meaning that it by nature does not produce much in the way of bottom end torque. It's powerband begins at 4000 rpm, and does not reach peak power until closer to 6500 rpm. This means a pushrod motor has a distinct advantage, especially off the line. However, this is also why the 4.6L engines benefit so much from the addition of forced induction, and why the dual overhead cam 4.6L supercharged Cobras are such a different story. Stock trim for stock trim, the '04 supercharged Cobra is a match for a 2002 (last of the line) Z28. You can't really compare the SS models, as they were truly aftermarket conversions of Z28's done by SLP, not GM. Using them for comparison means you have to allow the Mustang guys Roush, Saleen, etc.
GM and Ford both over the years have been guilty of comparing their cars unequally to try to garner more sales. Comparing these cars 30 years later is somewhat of a moot point, as finding showroom conditions copies now and actually putting them head to head is simply not going to happen. Once you go beyond stock you're no longer talking about which manufacturer is better anymore, as your changes may have upgraded / downgraded your car's original performance and skewed the outcome.

I'm not trying to start or finish arguments, just pointing out a few things to keep in mind on this thread.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I don't want to start a fight again....but you originally said they all weighed 3600 lbs, which we all dissagreed to. Now that you have seen the light and are agreeing that they are actually between 3300-3400 lbs, we're good.

And FYI, the 5 speed G92 305 TPI cars ran mid 14's. I don't think the G92 option came out till after 86 so that camaro in the article I'm sure probably wasn't one of them.


And 1983Chimaera,

I would say the 2002 camaro Z28's were def not in the same category as an 03/04 cobra. Those cobras I will give credit to since they were pretty much in a league of thier own. And the camaro SS was kind of a joke if you ask me. Absolutely no improvement in HP over a base Z28 but around $7K more of a price tag for a fancy hood. Same deal with the firehawk. You were basically paying for a serial number, not any kind of performance package. They were no faster than a basic Z28. GM botched the HP number on the trans am and Z28 so it didn't rival the C5 vette.....but it was the identicle motor.