This problem has stumped me, my local mechanic, and the pontiac dealership. Now I leave it in the hands of my fellow thirdgeners. Please help me.

My car is an 89 gta w/ a auto 350. I have made a custom ram air w/K&N air filter, underdrive pullies,tpis air foil,lowering springs,fuel pressure regulators,and a proformance resource chip.

After I placed the PR chip in the car it ran better but it did not carry enough volts because I dont think the underdrive pullies were taken into account when the prom was burned.THE PROBLEM IS 1 out of 10 times I start the car the enging turns but the injectors are not recieving the eletronic pulse to spray in fuel, it kind of trickels in. I thought it might be the injectors so I had them sent away and cleaned but the funny thing is that when it cranks and doesn't start if you spray starting fluid in it fires right up and is perfecaly fine. It runs great for a couple days and then the intermediate no start kicks in again. I diddn't mind until early last summer when I wanted to sell the car and get a TTA which I found a good deal on, so I brought it to my mechanic who has always worked on my car and none of their diognostic machines could locate the problem
so they replaced the ECM, recleaned the injectors,replaced the ignition module, and still no luck. After countless man hours he said I should bring it to the pontiac dealership because they have parts available to mix and match, plus the comprehensive manuals for my car. Well I brought it to them and they had it for a week and replaced the ignition coil & the Module in the distributor and claimed it was fixed. It was fixed for 3 days and then it kicked in again. So I brought it back and that was June 15th and to this day it hasn't been fixed and they replaced the distributor, mass air flow sensor, checked the wireing for cracks or breaks, replaced the prom w/ a factory one,Cleaned the injectors (again)... Now you can only immagine how much money I have sunk into this problem and the car is now sitting in my friends mom's garage until I can figure out what to do. If I can't fix it soon I will sell the car as is for $4,000 because it is perfect condition, everything works, nice paint, 350 w/ t-tops, leather, etc... but I really need some new advice guys.

Completely Lost
Pape-Dawg
89 GTA

 

you are not getting fuel and your injectors are not clogged,,hmmm,, could it be as simple as a clogged fuel filter?? just a guess. seems like you replaced everything else.
your not getting any codes , right?

 

First thing i would do is hook up a fuel pres. gauge ck and ck pres.when cranking...............too high a pres. can cause problems just like too low a pres. can.Next ck the voltage at the injectors plugs to a good ground.....then ck the ecm grounds.Of course if you don't know what to look for you could chase yer tail ferever with a problem like this.......i'm suprised a pro didn't fix this already ...i'd look for better techs

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87GTA,350,Auto,MAF screens removed,195 thermostat,cold start injector UNPLUGED,K&N,modified air intake,ADSchip,3:73s,3inch cat back Flowmaster single outlet,TPS.54,Bosch Plat plugs,base timing 6BTDC,22 MPG and runs like a bear,Bilstiens in the rear....,don't let yer meat loaf

 

fuel pump voltage shouldnt fall no more than .5volt of battery voltage, and if the pump cant supply fuel possibly whispering injectors with no fuel to spray. scan tool can show the voltage. if supply of alternator current isnt enough to charge the battery, then the alternator may have to be corrceted for lack of rpm. another check is the VATS control. the system is fuel primed for two seconds, then the VATS then finds the signal to complete the injectors to fire. again the signal is a voltage pulse.
if battery output is only 10v and your starter is chewing up most of that and the alternator can supply because of lack of rpm, then again the speed needs to be corrected. computers operating range is 9.8-14.3v any more or less is asking for unpredictible difficulties.
when we tune a chip pullies arent usually a concideration. why? curious to find out problem. let us know if any of these suggestions help...
airdeano

[This message has been edited by airdeano (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

Yes, even when the injectors re not spraying there are no codes.

 

They told me they checked the fuel pressure and it is fine, but what is the VATS? it sounds like that could be a possibility.

 

what is the fuel pressure. fine is?
VATS Vehicle Anti-Theft System.
the lil restistor in your key. this is a deterent
to start the engine without having the 'proper' key. the engine usually starts and then dies within 1-2sec. it disables the fuel injector pulses. no fuel no start.
airdeano

 

car will NOT crank without VATS.....so fergit that theory ................... yer after market chip my have it disabled anyway

[This message has been edited by RP1987GTA (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

yer gonna have to start somwhere on this problem to solve it.......if it still doesn't run .....how do you know what the cranking fuel press is ...or anything else for that matter.You had it to the dealer you say....find a new good tech ...or start lookin fer the problem...you can't just say ..oh the fuel press is good cause some wrench says it is...IDEA...maybe it was good when he saw it cause it was running at the time ...git it???????GOOD LUCK

 

PapeDawg
You are not alone, I have the exact same problem as you do. I have posted here and several other message boards with no answer at all.
The only thing I have noticed is when it doesn't start the ECM is warmer then usual, almost hot to touch. It will start with a cool ECM, I have tried it. So all I can figure is it's drawing current when the key is off, heating it up and leaving us stranded. I plan on carring a ampmeter with me and when it acts up, take the current reading from the battery with everything off. It should be around 35-50 ma. That'e because of the clock, stereo memory and ECM memory. Any more then standard readings and I will be pulling fuses and connectors to see which one is loading the ECM down.

This is real important for us to get fixed, unpridicable cars are no fun. Let me know what you find and I will do the same as soon as it fails again.

Do you also mean that it WILL start with spray start? I have never tried that. Will it stay running? Please respond.

John


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86 Camaro Sport
383 Speed-O-Motive Crate Engine, Trick Flow Heads, 58mm Accel TB, 3.73 Auburn Pro, SLP Cold Air Induction and Headers, Dynomax Cat-back, Serpentine belt setup.

http://64.176.105.239/octride.htm

 

nope, thats not it, I had another key made.

 

John, I just cranks but won't fire up and then when I hit the air filter w/ starter it fires up and runs realy good. Call me if you get some time to compare notes. 508-574-3941

 

not to beat a dead horse but:
RP1987GTA: you are incorrect. the factory VATS controls the injector pulse. and yes we disable the VATS only if required (street rods, engine swaps). most aftermarket alarms interupt the starter motor circuit.
just replacing the key isnt the proper fix. the recepticle in the cylinder wears as the key does.
i can fax you a flow chart on the diagnosis and repair. and will be either pickup coil, VATS module, ECM, or wiring.
airdeano

 

I figured it out! I was lucky enough to have the no start condition in my driveway. I once again started all troubleshooting all over again.

-Fuel pressure good
-Spark good
-Test light on injector, bad

OK, no pulse to injector. Next I disconnect the 4 pin connector at the distb. and inject 12 volts with a test light to the purple wire on the car side of the connector while the noid light is still connected to injector. When I touch and release the 12 volts to the purple wire, the noid light should puls and the fuel pump should run for 2 seconds. That check worked good indicating the ignition module or wiring is bad because the module should send a pulse to the ECM to tell it I'm turning, go ahead and pulse the ECM. So I'm changing the module tommarrow.

What I don't understand is if I shoot starting fluid down the throttle body the car will start and run fine all day long.


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86 Camaro Sport
383 Speed-O-Motive Crate Engine, Trick Flow Heads, 58mm Accel TB, 3.73 Auburn Pro, SLP Cold Air Induction and Headers, Dynomax Cat-back, Serpentine belt setup.
http://64.176.105.239/octride.htm

[This message has been edited by John Millican (edited October 25, 2000).]

 

AIRDEANO.......i will not try to convince you that i am right........i will prove it to you ....try starting that car without a chip in the key ...IT WILL NOT CRANK...THE STARTER INTERLOCK RELAY >>>>>>WILL NOT PULL IN.....thats just fer starters...READ YER MANUAL before posting poor info .....

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87GTA,350,Auto,MAF screens removed,195 thermostat,cold start injector UNPLUGED,K&N,modified air intake,ADSchip,3:70s,3inch cat back Flowmaster single outlet,TPS.54,Bosch Plat plugs,base timing 6BTDC,22 MPG and runs like a bear,Bilstiens in the rear....,don't let yer meat loaf

 

ok, what you say...
ive done what you say about a no chip key..
went to home depot and had a key carved and... the starter cranks and i havent a fuel pulse on a 89 camaro 5.0 tpi... now i guess i am wrong ?? i believe the tbi cars are subject to a no start as they only have a 4k capacity on the chip and VATS disable is impossible on them unless exterior means are provided.
i am a chip programmer for business and see this at least three to six times a week on engine swaps and upgrades. oh and plus seeing is believing as i demonstrated that this afternoon for my own. so no need in having you prove your theroy.. eh??
i believe this thread had to deal with a tpi difficulty.
no flame intended...
airdeano

 

you better check that PICK UP Coil too....its under the pole piece inside the dist.TWO wires coming off of it.....its responsible for generating the signal voltage to operate the module!!!!!!!!!

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87GTA,350,Auto,MAF screens removed,195 thermostat,cold start injector UNPLUGED,K&N,modified air intake,ADSchip,3:70s,3inch cat back Flowmaster single outlet,TPS.54,Bosch Plat plugs,base timing 6BTDC,22 MPG and runs like a bear,Bilstiens in the rear....,don't let yer meat loaf

 

AIRDEANO ...my momma told me to never ever argue with an idiot

 

Well, the distrubitor is a new Accel unit complete. All new parts inside. I bought it when I did my TPI swap. I don't understand why the module is failing so soon.

 

The VATS system will prevent the engine from starting when the correct resistance is not sensed from the encoded pellet on the ignition key. VATS prevents the engine from starting by:

1. Isolating the starter enable relay.
2. Isolating ECM fuel enable input.

If the ECM does not sense the correct pulse width modulated signal on the fuel enable input, it will not provide fuel to the engine. When the wrong resistance is sensed, the VATS module will not ground the starter enable relay circuit and will not output the fuel enable signal for approximately 3 mins.

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1989 IROC-Z 5.7L

 

OMAR....an intelligent answer. JOHN i've heard of problems with the accel module.

 

Really? I always thought the Accel product line was a good one. I also heard the AC Delco module was crap.
What module has a low failure rate?



------------------
86 Camaro Sport
383 Speed-O-Motive Crate Engine, Trick Flow Heads, 58mm Accel TB, 3.73 Auburn Pro, SLP Cold Air Induction and Headers, Dynomax Cat-back, Serpentine belt setup.

http://64.176.105.239/octride.htm

 

Did u try putting the stock chip back in???

My car did somethign very similar when U first got it, and the Chevy deakership changed my distributro and all kinds of other stuff, but it turned out that my hypertech chip was fried. As soon as I put the stock chip in, (we ordered a brand new, most up to date stock chipfor like $40) it worked fine and started right up all the time.

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1989 IROC-Z
350c.i. TPI
rebuilt 700R4 with shift kit
3'' Monza Pacesetter cat back exhaust (minus the muffler)[SOUNDS OF THIS ON MY WEBPAGE]
new dual cats
3.23 Posi rear
hypertech chip
under drive pulleys
adjustable fuel pressure regulator
K&N Air Filters
Excalibur alarm, keyless entry and remote start
new:
struts, shocks, bearings, distributor, cap, rotor, alternator, battery, regulator
245 ZR16 50 Tires, Rotors and brake pads all the way around

Go to my webpage to find out more about it.
You can also see pictures, and hear sounds as well.
http://go.to/iroc-z

AOL IMer: JRShotliff