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Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
To run $6E you have to switch the fan switch n/o flag to set (or the fans run all the time with key on), and disable VATS. Yes the large cap distributor works fine. The vette stayed with that distributor through 89 and it also ran $6E.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Well I ran a log on the car with the $6E chip I had and the corresponding files in TunerPro RT. What a difference!! A LOT more info given by the computer and actually ran at the faster Baud rate. I did another start and stall as well as starting fluid log. I can't find a way to upload them so you guys can take a look. I can screen shot it when i get more time this evening.
With all the new info i watched the knock counts which were around 25 but the computer was not pulling any timing according to the log and the advanced timing was a total of ~20 degrees while running (on starting fluid). I can report individual numbers and later I will post a couple screen shots.
If anyone would want to/be willing to take a look at the new logs I can send them tonight.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
One of the files (6e-1) iindicates you were driving the car? Vehicle speed is up to ~70mph?
In any event, the data looks very strange to me...
The 6e-1 file is showing a VATS error, and MAF of only .62 grams even when engine rpm is ~3000 rpm. Learn control is all over the place (bouncing between enabled and disabled).
The 6e-running file is showing a MAT temp of -40F (the other file showed approx 85F). The ECM says the engine is running but your system voltage is only 12V (the other file shows the system voltage of ~14.2).
If these datas were taken one right after the other, I'm not sure why there's so much variability...
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by ULTM8Z
One of the files (6e-1) iindicates you were driving the car? Vehicle speed is up to ~70mph?
In any event, the data looks very strange to me...
The 6e-1 file is showing a VATS error, and MAF of only .62 grams even when engine rpm is ~3000 rpm. Learn control is all over the place (bouncing between enabled and disabled).
The 6e-running file is showing a MAT temp of -40F (the other file showed approx 85F). The ECM says the engine is running but your system voltage is only 12V (the other file shows the system voltage of ~14.2).
If these datas were taken one right after the other, I'm not sure why there's so much variability...
6e-1 was the car starting and stalling so there should have been no vehicle speed.
The logs were taken one after the other so I am not sure why the data is erratic. This evening I will take a look when I have some time to see what it looks like again.
This ecm and memcal with the $6E mask were used in my 87 T/A that was running a month or so ago.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by 2012sergen11
6e-1 was the car starting and stalling so there should have been no vehicle speed.
The logs were taken one after the other so I am not sure why the data is erratic. This evening I will take a look when I have some time to see what it looks like again.
This ecm and memcal with the $6E mask were used in my 87 T/A that was running a month or so ago.
Might want to double check what you sent me...
I see vehicle speed up to ~70 mph, engine RPM getting over 3000, TPS% indicating throttle input, coolant reaching full operating temperature, etc...
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Are you using the whole ECM from the $6E car or just the PROM chip?
It sure seems like a major ECM malfunction based on the way it disconnects and reconnects.... 7165's are prone to that but it doesn't happen every single time you start it. It seems like a ECM failure or a power supply problem. The data looks ok but then it does strange things and even the PROM ID changes which seems like a corrupt data packet. Either major interference or the ECM is sh*ting itself.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
Are you using the whole ECM from the $6E car or just the PROM chip?
It sure seems like a major ECM malfunction based on the way it disconnects and reconnects.... 7165's are prone to that but it doesn't happen every single time you start it. It seems like a ECM failure or a power supply problem. The data looks ok but then it does strange things and even the PROM ID changes which seems like a corrupt data packet. Either major interference or the ECM is sh*ting itself.
GD
I am using a custom chip on a G1 adapter along with my prom from an 87 Trans Am. The custom chip is a $6E tune with VATS and EGR delete so I did not need the 9th injector on the 87. The ecm itself is also from my 87
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Pull every fuse for every circuit that isn't absolutely necessary. If that doesn't do it start checking power and ground circuits. Check for good voltage and ground and if you find nothing I would start checking voltage lines with a scope looking for strange noise, etc.
I don't see anything like a smoking gun in the datalog. Running on starter fluid doesn't mean the ECM is working. The ignition system is somewhat independent....
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
Are you using the whole ECM from the $6E car or just the PROM chip?
It sure seems like a major ECM malfunction based on the way it disconnects and reconnects.... 7165's are prone to that but it doesn't happen every single time you start it. It seems like a ECM failure or a power supply problem. The data looks ok but then it does strange things and even the PROM ID changes which seems like a corrupt data packet. Either major interference or the ECM is sh*ting itself.
GD
I looked at the data files and the area you guys are talking about where the data goes off the rails and looks like the computer lost its mind is when the car stalled out.
Maybe you're onto something with the power/ground issues. Up until the stall out the data looks reasonable to me but I just started. When the car stalled though the data looks like the ecm completely fried itself.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Thing of it is, even if the engine stalls due to sensor issues or bad programming.... The ECM should go right on transmitting valid data. You can absolutely get valid data with the engine off. So the stall is somehow related to the computer absolutely freaking out. The only way I can think of that happening is power/grounding issues or RFI/EMI.
That's why I say unplug every fuse in the car that the engine operation doesn't depend on. And then start going through the power supplies.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Checking on the power and ground wires for the computer. Haven't had much time the last couple days. Some pics of the injectors were asked for earlier and I pulled them off tonight so figured is get your guys opinion
Never seen ones like this on the bottom, and some of them are in different spots.
Get a volt meter and back probe the ECM connectors to make sure it's getting the right inputs. The chart in the above kink has the measurements to perform.
For grounds, touch the black probe to the negative battery terminal and the red probe to each of the ECM ground wires. You should only see a few millivolts of voltage. Anything significant like in the hundreds of millivolts could be problematic and indicate an inadequate ground connection.
Get a volt meter and back probe the ECM connectors to make sure it's getting the right inputs. The chart in the above kink has the measurements to perform.
For grounds, touch the black probe to the negative battery terminal and the red probe to each of the ECM ground wires. You should only see a few millivolts of voltage. Anything significant like in the hundreds of millivolts could be problematic and indicate an inadequate ground connection.
With the wacky data from the computer I am going to be going thru all the power and ground wires in the car to see if there is a connection to the datalog issue
I do have an update on the car though...
I pulled the fuel rail off to install a used set of injectors I had laying around. I wanted to know whether or not the injectors were an issue so i planned to just put it back together and see if there were any changes. When I took the fuel rail apart there was a lot of small particles of dirt/rust that I cleaned out.
THE CAR RUNS!!
I reinstalled the used injectors and the car started and ran, a little rough since the dizzy and TPS are out of adjustment a bit.
I'm planning to use the lightly used Southbay injectors I purchased from a member on here and put a new o-ring kit in the fuel rail and clean it all out and all new runner and plenum gaskets. I'm hoping to dial in the normal TPS, timing, iac and see where the car is.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Excellent!
Though if your new injectors are Bosch-IIIs... word of caution... you'll likelt need the voltage offsets to plug into the calibration for them to run properly. Do a search on Bosch-III and voltage offsets to learn more....
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
Yeah I wondered about that. The cold start injector is probably working and that's what gave you fuel for startup.
The stock injectors also are prone to the coil heating up and failing.
GD
I decided to change the injectors since the data logs looked good as far as the sensors readings other than the end of the log. Without a smoking gun in the datalog (besides the wacky "glitch") I was leaning back towards a mechanical issue and the injectors were the most suspect to try first
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by ULTM8Z
Excellent!
Though if your new injectors are Bosch-IIIs... word of caution... you'll likelt need the voltage offsets to plug into the calibration for them to run properly. Do a search on Bosch-III and voltage offsets to learn more....
Okay, I thought I had come across issues with the Bosch 3's so I will take a look, unfortunately I won't be able to burn a chip at the moment
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Doesn't really run "fine" yet. Unfortunately the car is idling up and down and has some lack of power and hesitation all around. However I am still going to be replacing the injectors and gaskets so the old gaskets may likely be part of the hesitation and idle surging.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
I put the Bosch III's (24's from South Bay) in my 86 and am quite happy with them. I tried messing around with the voltage offsets, etc but found that the old settings worked best for me. I have dialed in the 6E at this point very well and finally fixed the long cold cranking issue as well. The injector constant ended up being 23 lbs for most consistent BLM's. Mine is daily driven and drives perfectly in all conditions. I've tuned it with a wideband installed. Only mod is 24 lb injectors and 1.6 rockers - which made very little difference. 3.8 peak HP.
I'll share my BIN with you if you want to order the 24's and you can burn it or have Tuned Perfomance burn it and look it over, etc.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 07-04-2017 at 09:18 PM.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Not sure how much I would need to modify the bin since I have 19 lb Bosch III's. I will most likely get a modified chip to delete the cold start injector anyway so I would be interested in taking a look at the bin.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Well I was able to swap in the Southbay Fuel Injectors I purchased and the car is running again a bit better than before. Now I need to tweak the timing, minimum idle, and TPS and install custom chip from Tuned Performance and then see how it runs and what it needs next.
Injectors went in smooth and with no problems or leaks following Southbay instructions.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
I hope not... hopefully they were a different color when the previous owner purchased them. They are definitely like new but probably at least a year old I would guess. I'll try and find a part number
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
My 1989 firebird 350 formula starts and dies.
I replaced the fuel filter and it started running properly again. the car was hardly driven for the last ten years. I have been adding injector cleaner to it and have ran 4 or 5 tank fulls through it. it is now doing it again.
is there a drain plug or an easy way to flush the tank????
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Originally Posted by jerry1989
is there a drain plug or an easy way to flush the tank????
Its dangerous to drain your fuel out the tank with a drain plug, if there even is one ( not positive) dont wanna cause a static electricity spark and light the fumes up that get created by the fuel spilling into the pan or whatever you use. It's always best to just siphon the gas out, at least that way you can control the gas coming out if you need to switch containers... otherwise make sure you have a few 5 gallon gas cans available if you do unscrew your drain bolt because it wont stop until it's done.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
To clean my system I blew air back thru the lines with the filter off to clean the front half of the feed line and return. Then I pumped fuel with the pump to see how clean it was coming out of the tank. Replaced the filter and was getting nice clean gas at the line before the fuel rail.
I had planned to drop the tank if the gas coming out before the filter was too dirty. It's a bit of. A hassle to drop it to clean it out but better than ruining new injectors
Hello, I'm the member that sold him the injectors. upon arrival I was confused that they also weren't yellow but trusted southbay. I bought them due to facing the same issues that Sergen is currently going through and found that they did help my idle as well but weren't the smoking gun. I grew tired of chasing TPI issues and realized that I would be better off just putting the carb'd 383 stroker in that I always wanted so I pulled the engine and started selling all my TPI stuff. matter of fact, I think I sent you (Tuned Performance) a couple messages on facebook asking about a tune to see if that could help but you never replied
here is a picture of the receipt from Southbay, in the top left corner you can see I purchased them on 10/26/2016, I didn't end up installing them until around February/March of this year which is verifiable on my instagram (@tylersteeez). you can also see on the bottom that I ordered (8) 19lb bosch III injectors. I don't want anyone to think I pulled a fast one on Sergen
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
I installed the injectors and they run well, a little rich since I need to install my custom chip to fix the voltage offsets. Not rich enough to suspect they are any other size though imho
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Been pretty busy with moving into a new house but I have done a little work, just installed new plugs and wires last night after the new cap and rotor last week. I have to get my chip adapter and install the chip you sent me tomorrow morning and see how it runs.
At the moment has a lot of idle surging like the car is looking for the right spot. After the tune up and the chip I'll see where it is at since I'm hoping most the idle issues will be solved by the voltage offsets and etc.
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Well I installed the chip and the car seems to be starting to run better. The idle surging smoothed out after it ran for a bit so maybe that is part of the "re-learning" process. The idle on the car is still a little low so I am going to set the minimum idle air and then re adjust the TPS.
Also need to check the temperature of the car through datalog to see if the fan works properly since it didn't come on while it was idling but I am not sure what the actual temperature of the engine was.
Hoping to take the car on the road for a short test drive soon and see how it goes. Have to adjust the rear discs, they seem to be dragging
Re: 86 TPI Starts and Stalls, have read every thread on here
Wanted to update / close this thread for future readers with similar symptoms.
Fuel injectors were definitely the main culprit to my initial problems and with the chip from Tuned Performance and the Southbay injectors the car is running pretty well. The idle surging issue I was chasing came back to a vacuum leak at the cold start injector, the tab was bent when I re-installed it I fixed the leak and it started and idled smooth for the first time.
06-23-2017, 04:11 PM
spark latency is slightly different between coil in cap and devorced coil. It it works well as is. 
My 1989 firebird 350 formula starts and dies.
I fixed the leak and it started and idled smooth for the first time. 