Okay, I finally got a chance to tear the heads off and fix the oil control problem in the number 6 cylinder. No more oil fouled plugs for me!

Okay, that's the good news. Now for the bad:
Rocker arms seem a little on the loose side. I removed the heads WITHOUT touching the rocker nuts, by simply unbolting them and letting the valve springs push the heads loose (a good tip for those who are replacing their head gaskets and don't like messing with valve lash). The rocker arms seem to have lateral (side to side) play in them, but they seem to be set for zero lash.

Now, I have been having cold start trouble since I had this engine put in. Today I went out and SeaFoamed the engine to get rid of the carbon buildup. I also took a vacuum reading at idle and got a flutter between 14-15 in. Hg. Everything in the ignition system has been replaced, short of the pickup coil, although I may be looking for a coil in the near future since I seemed to have left the #2 wire disconnected when I fired up the engine yesterday . I am thinking of having the injectors cleaned out since I believe at least one of them leaks, don't yet have a fuel pressure tester so I can't say for sure. They check out in both hot and cold resistance testing, and the CSI has been completely disconnected, both electrically and from the fuel supply, but it has been left in place to plug the big hole back there (what size plug do I need for that thing?). The code 14 has been taken care of with a new CTS connector. The code 32 still exists since I have yet to replace the EGR solenoid. I had a code 34, but I replaced the relay with a spare I had and it went away.

The engine still takes forever to light off when I first start it in the morning, and the revs have to be held above 1200 to keep it running, for about a minute or so, and then the computer takes over and it runs really sluggishly for a min until the coolant decides to warm up a bit. I still have a hesistation problem when in high gears (3rd and OD, especially with the TCC engaged) and am running at around 1500-2000 RPM. When I hit the gas to speed up (say from 50 to 65 MPH), the car bucks like mad until the revs hit 2k and the vibration starts to go away. I couldn't tell you whether its the trans or the engine, since I am almost 100% sure the trans is in need of some new clutch packs, but since you can hear it in the exhaust note, I believe the root cause to be the engine.

I have been under the valve covers a couple of times, using my compression gauge to adjust the valves, and when I hit the highest compression I can get (around 175 PSI), the vibration seems to almost disappear. However, if I adjust the rocker arms so they don't have any lateral play, the valves get stuck open.

Couple of questions here: What is an average vacuum reading for a healthy 3.1 that has not been modded and has around 100K on the clock? Is the lateral play in the rocker arms acceptable for a while or should I try to minimize it as best I can and shoot for highest compresstion? Does anyone know where I can get a cheap fuel injection cleaning kit that attaches directly to the Schrader valve on the fuel rail and uses an aerosol can system to clean the injectors, or is it a better idea to just go out and get a new set of injectors (that's right, NEW injectors)?

BTW, I have finally gotten around to an oil change (2k overdue ) and the mileage report will come soon enough...

 

I can only contribute to some details
14-17Vacuum reading is "just right"
Bucking...early morning violent until I either floor it or "kiss gas pedal". Early coolish morning Part throttle bucking is driving me crazy.
I still have mine.
What I've changed it
Manifold Air temp sensor
Coolant temp sensor
Flopped hoses on the New EGR valve (they were reversed)
I have yet to change my "perhaps it's a cold sensor" next to CTS & thermostat housing on manifold. My injectors seem fine & also just had the TPS checked for "smothness of operation" & setting postion. Both points seemed ok.
I'd say it's something with the cold system & amount of fuel put out by cold start injector. I think it's too much fuel going thru system & the timing being pulled back by ECM for drivability. Why I say this?
My Cat convertor was found in front of the muffler when I removed my muffler! I think my fuel is being dumped out in coolish AM temps "operations" and that ruined a good Cat Convertor I had. I think this is happening.
Injectors?
Go grab a spare pair & have them sent out. Price out new injectors to see why. I think you've spent enough money on stuff, time to save some....

 

I guess I didn't make it clear enough.. I AM NO LONGER RUNNING THE COLD START INJECTOR. It's still in the manifold, but it doesn't have the signal wire attached (same with the switch in the intake), nor does it have the fuel line attached. CTS has been replaced. IAT has been resistance tested, but I can grab a new one if it should be replaced. (Friday)

The bucking gets worse the hotter the engine gets.

Catalytic convertor has been gutted since I hit it too many times with a hammer trying to get it off and the insides started rattling..

EGR valve has one hose running into it from the vacuum source and it's plugged by a bolt since I don't currently have a working solenoid. (Friday)

Spark plugs are all normal grayish color, but... I was wrong about having no more oil fouled #6 plug... it appears that I need a re-ring job... (When I can separate the damn flexplate from the TC)

Yesterday, I was heading towards work and I heard a sharp bang followed by what I thought was something falling out from under the car or out of one of the tailpipes or something. So I get out of work and go to start the car, and it starts right up, just like the day the engine was first run, with no extended crank. It died right afterwards because of my low idle speed setting (stock setting-700 RPM in gear), but thats been normal for months now, so I am not really worried about that. Now, I appear to have a fuel leak of sorts. I believe it to be either a blown out injector o-ring or one of the injector clips broke and the injector was forced out of the rail or something.. I'm about to go look.

Anyone have a spare set of 3.1 stock fuel injectors they are willing to part with, preferably a good, clean set? I hate to call junkyards around here because they tend to rip me off...

 

Okay, it appears that the leak is in either the number 2 or 4 fuel injector, both of which were replaced last year with two I had bought off of eBay. Not sure WTF if going on with them, but there is more fuel ending up on the OUTSIDE of the intake manifold than inside it...

Still, anyone have a set of 3.1 fuel injectors that they are willing to part with? If I don't hear anything by Friday, I'm going out and buying a NEW injector or two...

 

I know you're not into junk yards BUT what about off a FWD engine? Those cars "tend" to get less abuse.....
Perhaps the ring seal at injector failed.....
Have you checked the PVC connection at base of distributor, engine block, driver side?

 

KED, I picked up a PCV hose off of an 85 Berlinetta that has MFI, just like the hose I used to have, but have yet to install it. I also wonder if my fuel pump, strainer (sock, not filter since that is brand new), and/or fuel pressure regulator is to blame for the problems. If I am thinking correctly, a hot engine requires somewhat less gas to run than a cold one, so lower fuel pressure wouldn't show its ugly head until the engine was at a higher load. The problem with the number 4 injector was a blown out crappy NAPA o-ring I had installed on the fuel rail end of the injector. I replaced it with a Fel-Pro one I had on the engine end of the number 2 injector since it was still almost brand new and now I have no fuel leak (I hope ).

Does anyone know how to check to see if the anti-drainback valve in the fuel sender unit and/or the fuel pressure regulator are working properly? I know it has something to do with clamping off the supply and return lines to block the flow of fuel.

Also, is it possible to replace the FPR? I know it has anti-tampering torx screws on it. Do I need a special tool to replace it?


:edit: I also replaced both the CTS and IAC connectors, with the IAC connector just done today, if I hadn't said so already. The idle is still rather jumpy, around 700 in gear and cold.

And I still need to know the size of the freeze plug to install so I can throw out the CSI altogether since I am not using it and I am 100% positive it's stuck open. I thought I read somewhere it's a 5/8" freeze plug, but could someone verify this for me?

 

One can make a NEW PVC hose by using very thick walled 1/2" or 3/4" Heater core hose. VERY THICK WALLED hose is the key!
Hard part is getting that hose securly onto the fitting.
Old hose is aged & already weak. And could probably rip upon attempted install.
When I worked on my FPR during my swap, I took the guts apart.
I discovered my original FPR used on the 2.8 to have a ruptured diaphram.
During the 3.4 swap, I also had a FPR. I took the guts of the 3.4 FPR rubber diaphram and inserted it under the 2.8 FPR assembly and all worked fine.
YES ya need special screwdriver to release that spring in the torx screw.
YET I DOUBT THAT YA gotta have secial screwdriver or anything to replace the whole assembly!

 

PCV hose is in and works okay, but has the third port plugged.

Fuel pressure is 42 PSI with the engine not running and holds for at least five minutes. PSI with engine running is 37 PSI. Will have to find a place where I can get the special Torx driver to remove the FPR. Do you have any part numbers for an FPR refurb kit?

The fuel rail, I am sure, is quite expensive, since replacing the part of it where the fuel lines attach is $80 in parts alone.

I am still in search of a set of 3.1 injectors so I can have mine cleaned. Can anyone help here?

 

When I did my swap work
I rebuilt the original 2.8 assembly
I used the 3.4 FPR guts under the 2.8 assembly All this stuff fit perfect
I replace/swapped in from the 3.4 FPR a rubber diaphram and a spring, and resealed.
Yes you need a special tool for the spring loaded torx screws.
Go to dealership and ask for exploded diagram of this FPR part & just order the wear items.

 

Okay, took the PCV hose back out, since the ends were bad and leaked like heck. Still have the hardlines though, but am running the 3.1 PCV hose.

Will go to the dealer on Monday morning and see what I can dig up.

 

Thick walled heater core hose is your friend.
The enemy is to make it onto the fitting.
Been there. It's not easy, hope you get luckier than me.
Buy a foot or two & start chopping, you'll have atleast 4-6 tries for success.
Use lots of motor oil to lube ends.
It works best this way.
PS the original hose? Started out this size! Aging stretched your original hose to become worn out. GM did not design these cars to last this long, like 20 plus years! GM wants us to keep buying new cars to stay in business, right?
Good luck at dealer in buying the rubber diaphram.
I never did buy this part but again found my stuff in the 3.4 I bought. My FPR been working fine since 2000.
Make sure you walk away with copies/print outs of the line art illustrations of the parts you see on the screen. And part numbers lists, too.
Buy the parts guy a soda for his help.

 

If it's unplugged, why not just leave the cold start injector in it.. and do whatever you planned on doing with the fuel line?

If you're still having trouble starting the car... it might because the comptuer is still trying to use the cold start injector. If I remember correctly 89 didn't use a csi, it used all the injectors to start it. I had cold start problems and doing an 89 computer swap fixed it.

 

Yeah the CSI isn't exactly a necessary item....an ECM swap should solve the problem if the part you need for it is unattainable.

 

I am 100% sure the ECM is not the problem. I did not have this problem when I first started the car after the engine swap back last August, and the only part of the CSI system I had (AND STILL HAVE IF ANYONE WOULD JUST READ) was the cold start switch. The CSI hole in the back of the manifold was (AND IS) plugged up. I then ran (and still do) run my stock 1227302 ECM with my HNR PROM installed. I have an APFR (yes, that is correct) PROM that was installed in a spare ECM I bought (yes, also a 1227302) that I do not use because I still have the same problem. If anyone happens to have a part number for an 89 2.8 ECM, I'd REALLY appreciate it...

I am going to say this one last time: THE COLD START INJECTOR SYSTEM IS NOT CONNECTED. The CSI is only in the manifold to plug the gaping hole that exists back there (CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE ME A PLUG SIZE SO I CAN DITCH THE DAMN CSI ALTOGETHER?) The 2.8 fuel rail is sitting on a table in the garage with the fuel line leading to the CSI still attached. The switch in the intake manifold is not even plugged in. The CSI connector (the one that supplies the signal to the thing) is NOT connected.

Sorry if it seems like I am a little but it seems like I am chasing my tail here since everyone keeps giving me the same advice I have told them doesn't help.

 

Here is a list of everything that has been replaced and/or checked:

Fuel filter
2 fuel injectors since they leaked and were shorted
Fuel pressure is 42 PSI with KOEO and 37 PSI with engine running
CTS sensor AND connector
Engine does NOT enter closed loop (AFAIK unless the gauge needle is off) because the ICT does not reach 180*--Thermostat has been replaced with a 195* and it still doesn't help--cooling fan ALWAYS RUNS even after swapping relays with the fuel pump--all wiring seems okay
IAC connector
ICM
Wires
Coil
Plugs (number 6 is still oil fouling--I need new rings): AC/D R42TS
Cap and rotor are still good
Pickup coil works fine
Oil and filter has been changed if anyone wants to know
MAF sensor and relay are both about a year old, the relay was bought new and the MAF used
02 sensor is about a year old and has about 10.5K on it
All exhaust pipes have been replaced with the exception of the tailpipes and muffler and cat has been gutted

What it needs:
EGR solenoid assembly (throws code 32 and somehow has something to do with the locking of my torque convertor)
Will replace IGN coil just to make sure
Will pick up a set of Bosch DRI fuel injectors from Linder Technical Services as a direct replacement for the Delco Multitecs I have now... These have a lifetime warranty if anyone cares...
Probably a fuel pump strainer (sock thing)
V8 fuel pump will be installed when the sock is put in...

 

Got me a little baffled here... That hesitation, shaking, and hard start REALLY sounds like a miss, like a crossed plugwire or something... So it's always had these problems, no matter what, since you got the new motor in? Your vacuum sounds reasonable.... (little low to what Im used to seeing in other cars, but not *bad*)....fuel pressure is fine....

As far as STARTING goes, there's really only a couple things that could be wrong, seeing as the ECM, to my knowledge, doesn't use any of the sensors during cranking. All it does is substantially richen the a:f ratio, and fire the ignition, that's it. Sensors don't come into play until the engine is running....and EGR, O2, etc. only function during closed loop operation. So it's basically either a fuel issue, an ignition issue, or a top-end issue.

Seeing as you've done plugs....and I assume you've checked the wires out, and the cap/rotor for any broken pieces/physical issues....all I can really suggest would be to try swapping the coil, since your problem doesn't seem to be on the fuel delivery end of things.

 

What brand or kind of coil do you suggest? I am currently running an el-cheapo GP Sorenson I bought two years ago for $18 or thereabouts, and swapping it with my stock coil (yes, I am 100% sure it was the stock one since it was still riveted to the EGR solenoid bracket) didn't seem to help any. Would shoveling out the extra dough for an Accel or something help maybe? Same situation with the plug wires, they are a set that I bought for around $30 last January that have a lifetime warranty on them. They are 7mm wires, and their resistances are all within specs (10K ohms per foot, according to my electrical troubleshooting book).

The injector wiring harness had some cuts in a couple of injector wires but I covered those up and made sure all of the splices were good.

Is it possible to have good fuel pressure but not flow? Since I already know how to check this, about how much fuel should a V6 fuel pump flow in 30 sec?

The thing with this problem is that I DID NOT have it last August. When the engine was first dropped in, even if the ICT was 60*, one full rotation of the engine and it was running, and it would keep running until I put the car in gear, then it would stall. Then, I had to somehow hook up ALL of my emissions equipment to the vacuum ports, and I hooked everything up where it was supposed to be hooked up according to my ZCD hose routing. Since the plugs that were in the engine also came from the junkyard, I immediately replaced them with AC/Delcos, and then the problem started to get worse from there. A complete fuel system cleaning (two hundred f***ing dollars!) did NOTHING but make it worse. The fuel filter was replaced at that time also. I personally replaced the two bad fuel injectors (resistance was lower than the nominal 12.5 ohms) and the problem continued to worsen. Swapping coils with my old one didn't help. Replacing the ECM to get IAC control back didn't help. Adjustment of the TPS to .60V at idle hasn't helped. SeaFoam in the intake AND gas tank hasn't helped. EGR does NOT work, so that can't be a problem.

 

Hmm....well if you've already swapped the coil with one that's known to be good....then that shouldn't be your issue either....

You mentioned about compression earlier...I assume you did a compression check on all 6 cylinders? Did you get any that were low, or out of balance? And when you crank the motor, does it crank evenly and smoothly, or does it have a repeated dip in the crank? The dip, as I've seen, tends to point to bent valves or bad compression problems...

I'm just throwing you shots in the dark right now man....it's hard for me to trouble shoot via keyboard.

 

The cylinders on the passenger's side seemed to have lower compression than the other 3. I don't quite remember what the numbers were, but the average for the driver's side was about 170 PSI, not counting the number 6 cylinder due to the excess oil in the cylinder. IIRC, cyls 1 and 3 were lower than the others by quite a margin, and cyl 5 was around 160 PSI. The head gaskets have been replaced, along with the valve seals on cyl 6. I still have the seal kit if I need it, along with the valve spring compressor. However, I don't really treasure the thought of having to go out and buy another MS 93020 intake gasket set, since this will be the third one I have bought in about four months.

Engine cranks quite evenly though...

:edit: BTW, I am not quite sure if the ign coil is good or not. I have read that just because the resistance tests check out, it doesn't mean the coil is good.

 

How much is maginally lower? None were below...say 120 or 130 psi?

 

I'll have to get back to you on the compression readings, since I want to make sure I get my numbers right.

However, I can say that the vacuum reading is no longer steady like it was before. It tends to dip down about 1" Hg and return to what I consider to be normal (about 14.5-15" Hg) every now and then.

 

Compression in all cylinders is between 160 and 175 PSI, not counting cylinder 6 which is about 185 PSI or so...

 

Well your compression is normal.... As far as the vacuum...damn I used to know of a website that had a list of various strange vacuum behaviors and a possible description of all of them, but I lost it....

 

According to the booklet that came with my MityVac and a decent car care book, the dip in vacuum points to a leaking head gasket or something of that sort, but since both head gaskets are brand new (going to do one, might as well do both just to make sure) I seriously doubt that...

 

So, right now, I am looking at an Accel ign coil ($55), AC/D V8 fuel pump ($68) and fuel pump sock ($7). If putting these parts in doesn't get me anywhere, then I am going to splurge on the Bosch injectors ($200/set), and an 89 ECM (S/N, please!). If none of the above works, then I am pretty much done with spending money on this car.

:edit: I just looked up the service number for the 1989 2.8 ECM. It appears I may need a PROM change to delete the CSI altogether, and if someone would tell me if I am right that I will need a 5/8" freeze plug to fill up the CSI bore I'd appreciate it...

 

I paid $35 for my Accel coil
Shop around
The pump set up will run ya closer to $110 with filter & isolator (?) part.
Vacuum leaks add vacuum flutter, so does engine age. Tolerences occur.
Resealing every leak won't cure every problem but it sure will get ya closer.
I know I still have the cold start problems in my car but until it reappears again (it's now warmer in LA go figure), I can't track it down.
ECM may be last resort but I'd do that before injector changing. Keep original vehicle PROM & donate it to new used ECM.
Hope ya track down that pesky gremlin.

 

I hope this hasn't been asked already...but I have short term beer-related memory issues and this thread is waaaaay too big to read right now....but you're mentioning Code 32's and EGR solenoid problems....have you tried blocking off the EGR? As in, disconnect it and/or plug any vacuum lines that may be going to it, and see if you can't fab a blockup plate in where it bolts to the manifold...just a quickie sheet metal job?

I can't help but wonder if your EGR isn't hung fully open....that'll give idle problems and hesitation, though usually not as severe as you describe. I dunno, just throwing a last ditch idea out there since I'm about stumped for the cheap/easy fixes.

 

Nixon, the EGR solenoid is completely out of the engine bay, and the VAC IN line is plugged. The valve is fully closed and I have cleaned the pintle to make sure it's closed. I currently have a plug in the EGR port to get rid of that vacuum leak.

KED, I have the original PROM, and a spare of the same broadcast code (HNR) currently in the ECM. Another one I have, an APFR broadcast PROM, doesn't work either. I am fresh out of ideas on the ECM issue...

I replaced my dizzy cap yesterday with my old one and the car seems to run better. However, I would rather just go ahead and replace the fuel pump and strainer (any other parts I need for this?) to make sure I have no fuel flow issues BEFORE the injectors.

:edit: I am going to go ahead and get another el-cheapo coil ($15) before I go and get the Accel to see if that helps or not. If not, then being out $15 is a lot better than being out $50...

 

Replacement EGR is $30-ish. IF you have original go get new one & install it.
That new EGR helps MANY problems.
Invest in the new coil, not just buying a same kind.
One of best investments in the 60*V6 engine is a new higher output coil

 

...I'm pretty sure that just because you have the CSI disconnected doesn't mean that your computer would magically know that and use all the regular injectors to start it up. I could be wrong though. Besides that ...an 89 computer from a yard would be dirt cheap and it if didn't work you could just return it, assuming you got the warranty.

 

I'm two steps ahead of you guys already in tracking down a PROM from an 89 model year car.

Installed the Accel coil and things seem to be better, but sometimes the engine will start right up and sometimes it won't. I'm hoping that the PROM change will help things out a little.

As far as the high speed hesitation goes, replacing my EGR solenoid should do the trick.. We'll have to wait and see about that when I can pick up my next paycheck...

 

Glad you feel pleased in that purchase.
The start up is not from coil issues, unless the wiring is flaky.
Keep at it as a decent driving car seems not to far away.

 

Anyone know if I could just pull the ECM from an 89 2.8 Beretta (FWD MFI) and drop it in? I know that, according to the Hollander manual, the ECM's themselves are the same part number (302). However, I also know that the Beretta uses coil packs instead of a dizzy for ignition, and this is where I have my issue here...

 

I think your heory of "correctness" is vry valid.
Try keep hunting...
OR MORE SIMPLY
Look at aftermarket for "chips" see if the Beretta ia using the same CHIP as he Firebird.
IF same, so it the original thing passed down assembly line....

 

I just need to be clear on one thing:

Exactly what model year did GM stop using the CSI system?

 

Okay, I have a line on two 89 model year ECM's. However, after replacement of the two "solo" (cyls 1 and 6) fuel injectors, the engine actually runs without a lope at idle speed, has good pickup (better than before, and I retarded the timing about eight degrees), and sounds a lot better than it did before, except it still has a minor exhaust leak or two at the cat. I will have to wait a couple of hours to see what it does on a fully cold start and then I'll let you guys know what comes out of it...