it seems as if alot of you members spend alot of money to put your cars into just the 14's, sometimes 13's....... what is the deal....

the deal is that if you look back to the mid to late 80s this car were the best of the best in everything. now when you compare them to a 2006 or 2007. I do not think they are slow at all just take a ride with me and see.

We might as well go ahead and lock this now before it gets out of hand...

hereinmissoula, what are you comparing to? 13's is pretty fast I think. If someone is modding and only gets into the 14's, they're not done yet. These are 20+yr old cars, with 20+year old technology. With a few easy updates they can compete with the new stuff. With a full on new motor built to the hilt they will compete with the new sports cars as well.

What do you ocnsider a lot of money? How much money does it cost to get a modern car that hits 13s?

Think about it, these cars are a bargain.

Sure you can spend $50 grand on a corvette and get into 12s, or you can spend a fraction of that on a thirdgen.

the deal is its FUN

this is a hobby for a lot of us here and we enjoy playing with our cars, making them better and such. like above, these cars are 20 years old and compared to new cars, in stock form, they are slow in comparison. but its a simple car to work on, and if you want to make a drag car out of one that will run 9's, it just takes a little more money and time. a lot of people here drive their car everyday and need to pass emission standards to do so, and thus they can't make some rip-snorting speed demon out of their cars.

but look at this.

you can buy a decent thirdgen for dirt cheap. drop 20 grand into it and have run with a c6 z06, which costs 75G+, it may be a tad off but you get my drift.

i have 20k+ into my camaro now and I think I'm doing alright. But speed costs on any car, it's all how fast you want to go and how much knowledge you have. I'm sure when I'm around 30k total I'll be happy with my car finally.

What do you expect with having a little anemic 305 stuffed into a 4000lb tank?

Not exactly a speed demon...

A typical muscle car from the late 60's was fast when it got into the 13's. Maybe 20 years from now a typical performance car will run 11's from the factory. I doubt it but anything is possible. Where not talking exotics or special purpose cars.

I'm finally going as fast as I want to go in my car and it's not cheap or street legal.

for less than 2 grand you can run 12's in a mustang, why not these cars.....

change the heads and cam exhaust...

but i see alot of goog\fing around with other things, trying to make factory parts make power, and spending alot of money in the process?????

What is goog/fing? Tell me that and I might answer your dumb questions.

It only takes a couple grand to make one of these turds pull a decent 1/4 mile, but alot of people like to go the expensive route and buy a bunch of overpriced bling while doing it...

It doesnt take much cash to get an old junkyard 350 to crank out some decent numbers!

"for less than 2 grand you can run 12's in a mustang, why not these cars.....

change the heads and cam exhaust..."

Thats what my buddy thought too. Built a 347 stroker, GT-40 heads, E cam full exhaust ect... ran 13.4 at the track.

This is ironic. Basically you are saying that if you take a mustang and replace everything but the rotating assembly and block, it will go fast, unlike a thirdgen?

HMMMM, set of heads, cam exhaust on a thirdgen, and it will do the same thing.

Oh wait, i wasnt supposed to say that, hang on..........Mustangs are like really fast and stuff, cause like they are the best and stuff and cause every one in the trailer park has em. That makes 'em super bad

This is ironic. Basically you are saying that if you take a mustang and replace everything but the rotating assembly and block, it will go fast, unlike a thirdgen?

HMMMM, set of heads, cam exhaust on a thirdgen, and it will do the same thing.

Oh wait, i wasnt supposed to say that, hang on..........Mustangs are like really fast and stuff, cause like they are the best and stuff and cause every one in the trailer park has em. That makes 'em super bad

As much as I dislike mustangs, i've said this on this forum before:

-mustangs had the 8.8" factory. Better rear gears.
-They had factory "headers". Not as good as aftermarket, but better than manifolds.
-The 302 is better than the 305. Bigger bore. The 350 beats it though

Unfortunately they have a slight advantage from the get go.

But yea, heads and cam (and exhaust I guess ) in a 3rd gen will get you the same thing as in a mustang just like ljnowell said.

That's painful. Flat out painful. I mean, that's like souping up a 350 and getting 290HP. Ouch. Someone did something wrong.

My cousins 302 in his 1983 Mustang in Moncton dyno'd 390HP with GT-40 Iron heads and a 235/235 solid flat tappet. All the other goodies there too though.

We can toss around stories like this all day long though, this thread isn't going anywhere at all, yet we all get suckered into it to defend our cars. Damn, I did it again!

yea missoula, some guys with 3rd gens (and mustangs), drop their money into non go fast goodies. Neons, snake oil performance addons, SS mufflers, stereos and exhaust tips, etc etc. That's why they can say "yea I spent $8000 and go 14.1s in the quater. 18" chrome wheels don't get ya down the ol' 1320 any faster eh?

Anyway, why don't we let this thread die before it gets out of hand eh? If you've got a specific question i'm sure someone here can answer it, but we don't want this to get into an arguement.

oh yeah also.......

In factory street trim, Mustangs also have a weight advantage.

if you do that stuff to a thirdgen it will perform exactly the same. However, as much as i hate a ford, i have to say, i drove a very lightly modified mustang, and the power to weight ratio seems to be much better in a mustang.

But again, go to hotrod.com, theyve used both a camaro and a mustang to build a budget race car, to break into a certain time slip range and had good results either way. 12s is VERY VERY quick, and youre first problem is that you wanna spend $2k to get it..... Do you have a 12 second mustang by the way?

I have a near 12 second firebird that i purchased for $2000 canadian, but thats not because its the car's actual value, i just happened to catch the previous owner at a time when he needed cash real bad, and decided to cut his losses.

If you start from a stock car, i bet breaking a mustang and a camaro into the 12s will come fairly close in cost

I guess a third gen is slow, for the same reason youre a moron. I have made a blaitently general statement on which i have no grounds or any verification under controlled circumstances, to piss off a group or a person.

About ljnowell's post...

Maybe Im misinterpretting what the guy said, but to me he was saying "People swap cams, heads, and whatever on Mustangs all day long and get quick cars, why doesnt anyone do this to Camaros? They always want to salvage the factory parts."

He's not saying thirdgens are necessarily slower, just that their owners seem to have a different approach to performance for some reason.

Which is a pretty interesting observation, in my opinion, regardless of whether I think it has any merit.

Hey Look at me I'm a Noob! My 1990 is actually pretty slow I think. It is all stock and I like it but was wondering if anyone can give me some advice on what to mod to make my stock engine perform better. This is my 2nd 3rd Gen firebird and my first one seemed as fast if not faster and it was an 88 V6. Help Please. BTW I have the 305 TPI 5.0L. I want to haul *** on these highways but feel there is a lot of power that needs to be unleased.
----------
nice car bro. I like!

i've got maybe 6,000 in my car. including the initial car purchase. i run in the 10's in a 1/4. i've seen it done but not without a power adder. i go to the track every weekend and see mustangs running 8.50's and 9's in the 1/8.

14s stock here.. how about your former 5.0

Some say you can drop in 2000 and run 12's .... heck just go get a N2O kit and you are running 12's for alot less than 2000

wow..... sorry... didn't mean to flame this whole forum....
i just see alot of people trying to make a bunch of power with TBI and TPI and factory iron heads and wondering why they run 15's and have spent god knows how much money on tuning there factory f/i setups that hold them back

and yes i have owned an 11 second (efi procharger car, this one was expensive before i was married and children), and 12 second mustang...carbed with stock bottom end, fact. cam and ported fact. heads... 4.10 gears, tremec tranny, good intake and exhuast (long tubes, perf rpm, 650 dp, msd 6al, blaster, etc.... you get the idea..)
i ran 12.7 in this car with drag radial's and 1.8 60ft's on STOCK suspension, later ran 17. 60's on eibach drag kit and new control arms....
but none the less almost a stock car...


anyways i guess my original point was that these cars CAN do the same thing, but it seems alot of people on here choose to spend there money on other things.. just wondering why...

also all my friends HATE fords, one of my best friends runs a 72 split bumper camaro with 406, brodix heads off of sprint car (great find on ebay), 11:1, solid roller, 250 shot, th400 3500 stall, 3.73's 12 bolt detroit, etc...
this car runs 10.9 and drives on pump gas, drives it couple times a week and to the track..

why no supercharged, turbo, nitrous 700rwhp cars here... or very few...
i have just came across a 1986 IROC with 305 Q-jet and was looking at switching my hobby to camaro for awhile

infernal vortex thank you for taking my question for what i was truly asking... not trying to offend anyone... you got it right on the head... maybe i should have asked the question that way from the beginning

Missoula, my last post didnt go through, it froze before i posted. But it was something along the lines of, i think infernal vortex picked up your point better than the rest of us. In any case, i would have to disagree with you on that part. The aftermarket for these cars is HUGE, and alot of readily available parts for speed at fair prices.

However, there is a lack of experience and knowledge, cuz the thirdgen crowd is still relatively young. Because its an expensive hobby, (and im included in this crowd) the younger guys dont always have the $ to keep spending on speed, cuz it does cost. So its also spent on appearance and things like that.

However, times have gotten a bit more expensive now,a nd i think your first prob is, your trying to squeeze 12's out of 2000 dollars. I have a near 12 second firebird, that i got for 2k canadian, but that doesntmean thats what the car is worth.I just happened to catch the owner at a time he needed cash.

However, if youre set on making your car go fast, and are not concerned with luxuries like appearance, or ineterior comfort, a good base project bought cheap, and with 2K worth of parts added can easily break into the 12's.

I think the prob lies in with what i mentioned earlier, with the younger crowd. Alot of the guys, including myself, are first time car owners with these third gens, so its very much a learning experience for them. The knowledge and experience grows, but the tuning and matching combos part of the build is still lacking.

If speed is your priority, then camaros or thirdgens is the right way to go on a budget.

i guess the thing that set me answer this question the most was that i am ed of hearing people talk about fact. gm heads. 081 601 781, dang.... none of them flow enough to drink out of, lol... but serious though... get on ebay and but some old darts or brodix or world ported heads, get into the 270-300 intake range, make some real power... don't be afraid, single planes don't bite, lol

if i remember correctly, a brand new set of vict. jr's can be had for alittle over 1000 dollars prob 700 used!!??

know what i am saying !!?"???

yeah i know what you mean about people trying ot reuse old stuff like people who ad a 3in catback and wonder why they dont see perforemance gains, duh stock manifolds and y pipe arnt getting any bigger just because the 3 in is there...

but i can be included in the "younger" crowd and i too am a broke highschool kid whos gonna squeeze as much outa stock used parts as i can probably to only replace them later with real performance stuff. i had my chance to own a fast car a 87 mustang that would have been damn close to the 12's if i could really drive it. but i decided i wanted an f-body "i know my car is slow, but its my 5 liter beater and i wouldn't have it any other way"

im suprised that no one has stated that 3rd gen just look damn good...

why did you have to go bring that F word into this forum, i ought to report this just because of that un-forgiveable word. theres no need to spend extra money on a mustang anyways because the engines are so ugly and the spark plug wires cover up all the cool parts of the engine.

only thing i will admit about mustangs from the 80's is that they are way lighter than a third gen, so its no wonder why you see results for cheaper.

id also agree with online170 in that young ppl focus their money on different things than the older generation. i personally spend my money on my drivetrain, but most ppl spend money on their paint job, making their engine a budget engine, and its not hard at all to ramp up 2000dollars in engine parts, and if you know some ppl, you can easily get some used parts for uber cheap.

i think the reason we spend our money on thirdgens is because there is nothing like it out there, so a truely unique car is more of a fun project and not a budget project.

PS: the F-word is "FORD"

Some of us like to enter and exit turns quickly also........

one of the main reasons. mustangs are just fugly if you ask me.

Which one would any sane person rather have?


--OR--


I mean come on.

I follow ya, I asked myself the same thing. Like how much people spent fortunes on old exhaust systems for a few extra ponies and so on while on the other hand I replaced my whole exhaust system using 300$ 3 inch hooker headers and 3 inch stainless steel side pipes with cutouts. An exhaust system I researched myself and built for pure power and decent look only cost me a total of about 775 canadian dollars with the labor. The upper power gain was absolutely insane. I laughed like a school girl for hours.

Another hit against thirdgens is you have so many different V8's with different power levels. In a Mustang, there's one V8 and that's it. $2000 into a TBI 305 vs a TPI 305 vs a 350 TPI is going to achieve very different results. But $2000 into a 5.0 is going to achieve the same results every time.
There is a huge aftermarket for the small block Chevy engine, but there is a tiny aftermarket for thirdgens. Mustangs have 5 or 6 different smog legal intakes available while the TPI thirdgen has two. Also, the Chevy lovers with money upgraded to the LT1 and LS1, while Ford lovers kept their 5.0's because the first 4.6's stunk.

well for most people there is only one V8, but for us die hards like me that bleed blue there's several, theres the

255? i can't even remember every ford guy hates these engines
302
5.0 (very similar, but still enough differences to be considered a different motor)
302 boss
351 windsor
351 cleveland
460
514

which are all pretty common V8 swaps into mustangs and all these small blocks are vastly different, much more than the L03 to the L98

I will agree with the $ spent vs. time gained controversy. a friend of mine build Fords(sry I said it) and he's built numerous Capri's (mustangs in disguise) and he's made them to what I would consider quick little cars. They suffer all the same problems that F-bodys do, unibody flex, stock restrictive parts and age old frustration of rust. I will admit to the huge difference between the 305 GM and the 302 ford.
As for why we choose to drive F-bodies, it's because we have a choice and we like the cars. Same goes for anyone who follows any other sports car. How many "collector edition" mustangs were made? If I read right, there's less than 1000 1LE's made in the last 5 years of the 3rd Gen. Owning a Mustang is what people call a "me too" car. "I've got a Fox body w/ flowmaster duels" "Me too" " I've got a fox body with ...." "me too" it goes on and on.
Competition is the name of the game. So, when we build F-bodies and you build mustangs, we're competing. 2600 lbs stock vs. 3200+.

I spend money on my car b/c I like the satisfaction of success. I don't bother puttin my time into things I can't be proud of. I choose to drive a GM b/c #1 it cheap to fix. #2 it's cheaper to fix & build than a ford, #3 I haven't ever liked working on a ford #4 It might just be how I was brought up ... basically, we're not "dumping" tons of cash into our cars. We're having a good time doing something we all share a passion in.

I've grown up since highschool, I probabaly won't diss you for driving a mustang(at least if I do, I won't be serious about it), unless of course we both stick to the exact same budget, and I beat you outright. then I'll laugh a little, and give you some respect for some good effort. And I would expect the same from anyone else-no matter what they drive.
And 13's is respectable. a SRT8 station wagon may outrun you, but it's respectable. Sub 12 sec cars are well worthy of credit due. Look at Daves12secV6.... I don't think he spent much on his car and look he did something different as well.

I don't think mine is slow compared to other regular street cars. I think you're just in here trolling trying to stir stuff up

Wow... just think at what war will be like between Camaro vs Mustang when the new Camaro comes out a couple years from now . lol

Well of course, but I'm referring to the stock engine in an 80's Mustang. They're all 5.0's, and there is only one V8 engine available in a Mustang each year. Unlike the thirdgen F-body, where you could get 2 or 3 different V8's each year, with different induction and different displacements. To the average person, "all V8's are the same", and/or "all Camaros came with 350's" so they dont understand why their base model engine is so slow.

Experience, age, income, taste.

If you like a car you like a car. To some people it doesn't matter how much money goes into it.

I always sat on the sidelines during the mustang vs fbody debates, even when I had fbody's. Those fox body's are pretty damn ugly cars but they directly address almost every flaw in a thirdgen.

Don't bother flaming me. With the exception of probably Kevin and Lj, i've had more fbody's and fox body's come through my shop doors than most of you guys have probably even looked under the hood of. If you wanna talk facts i'll be here all day. but i'm not into arguing.

-- Joe

I like red

how is my camaro brought into this ??? AND..... how do you like that faded red paintjob over my shiny perfect blue paintjob. ugh.

Personal taste?

-- Joe

prior to 86 i do believe you could get two v8's for certain years, the standard output 302 and the 302 HO, also in 93 you could get the cobra, which was a pretty different engine

I'm pretty sure all mustangs had the 302HO, I think the low output wasn't available in mustangs... (*cough, where as most Camaros came with the low output LG4/L03, and the tasty L69/LB9/L98 was the not-as-common option)
And the Cobra engine would be compared to the 3.8L turbo or something

well actually the 82 mustang did come with the 2 v8s

the

4.2 v8
5.0 v8

the 4.2 v8 was definetly the low output motor

by the way that mustang looks very nice and sexy

The guys are right about people starting out with the wrong motor to make power with. Look at the engine data link on the main page. It was ridiculous how small some of those cams were in those cars.

It was also stated too that camaros fitted with suspension from the right year/trim handle like a dream. I know mine does =D

Why should we spend 600+ on a set of heads when we could get 100$ stock heads that will suport our goals.

So what if there is heads that will flow 300cfm, cfm isent the only thing that matters.

Whats your goal?

-- Joe