Comp Magnum Rocker Arms overheating: Carniage!
 

These have 5000miles on them. Not good. Either bad parts, or I'm shooting oil OVER a select few of them.... Doubt comp will do anything about it either.

Here is the studbase. So I have to buy new studs too!

Here is the studbase. So I have to buy new studs too! Forgot the pic in the last one!

And another rocker that is getting black. Note, there are 5 black ones, out of all 16.....

Are the burnt rockers running on exhaust valves?

guess i'm a little slow to catch on, but how is any of that comps fault?

Are you sure that the push rods are letting oil get to the top of the valves?

Are you sure that the push rods are the correct length?

I also agree with ede. It appears to be operator error but... you never know

I kinda have a tendency to agree. Rule out operator error before you start blamning COMP. Way too many people out there w/ COMP stuff running 100% fine...

You guys are just a bunch of whiners when it comes to problems. So quick to alienate the person posting the problem.

Yes it gets oil, the oil hole in the pushrod can be seen 99% through all lift, and guess what, I've watched the oil come out myself at 3500rpm! Imagine that.

I've got burnt rockers on intake valves too. The engine temp was good, oil pressure was good. HEY LOOK a guy on TGO that knows how to look at his gauges!

I was cruising on the freeway when this happened, not racing, not reving, cruising. Gee, you'll all just call me a liar and say I was beating the snot out of it.

My pushrod geometery is perfect. I used a pushrod length checker and checked 8 times before I bought new Comp Magnum pushrods to go with the comp lash caps and the comp retainers and locks etc.


So you guys can operate on those facts. No operator error. Did it ever occur to you guys that maybe I ran it by other people and rechecked BEFORE posting here about possible "operator error?"

I swear this place has become political. I was posting my findings so that maybe someone with the same problem might have a direction, or someone out there already had the same problem and could post their ideas on the situation. I didn't neccesarily say it was comp's fault... if you'd read the first post.... ya know, read....? ..... I stated the theories that had been come to, hense the possible oil shooting over the rocker, possible bad pivot balls.... and get this... someone else I know, a mechanic by trade with great running vehicles, has these rockers, and noticed a few starting to over heat and discolor on his daily driver mild engine! So maybe we both suck, maybe we got bad parts, maybe it's a coincidence.......

Did you know that alot of Big Blocks came with valve cover drippers stock? Do you know what a dripper is? If GM thinks it might be a good idea, then maybe it is.

SO BACK OFF!

ooooo, we need to back off!...anyhow:

Does the guage work correctly?

Your were crusing on the freeway and you know exactly when this happened?..Amazing!!!! What was the indication while you were driving on the freeway that this porblem was occuring right then and there?

So you ran it by other poeple and while you were not geting the answer you wanted you decide to post here. Sure why not I can understand that. I see it all the time. For every 10 people that say one thing, there's another 10 to say the opposite. Yet, when it comes to products like CompCams I don't see that at all.

Blah Blah Blah I know this mechanice Blah Blah he has good running cars, Blah Blah Blah......... Sorry that doesn't mean squat. Not every mechanic out there is as good as he thinks he is. You might have picked up the same bad habits as he did when it comes to building engines. Maybe not <-----disclaimer:) Who knows.

I BELIEVE <------- (read as in my opinion and don't care what you say afterwards) that the problem might be elsewhere, not the rockers. It looks as if they were not getting enough oil. Yes looking to see if the rockers were getting oil during the entire lift might be just dandy, but were the rockers getting enough oil?...

I BELIEVE it's something you did or didn't do.

But what the hell do I know. I can't figure out why my car wants to idle at 35 degrees advance and nothing less.

Good luck:)

Or maybe he was posting this as a warning, and not asking you for your opinion.

Of course.... We could look at this from the standpoint that Mike at Lewis Racing Engines (http://www.lewisracingengines.com) did... and find out that maybe he isn't the only one...

I guess thinking that there could be a problem with a product, would be to hard for some people to beleive.

Looks like typical rocker galling on startup. These rockers need molydisulfide cam lube applyed to them when assembled.
Just like a flat tappet cam. and lifters
They also need an oil with Zinc anti- scuff additive. Most motor oil sold over the counter now days do not have this zinc additive built it to the formula. You can replace it by using GM EOS ( Engine oil suppliment) in your oil for initial startup and everday.
Most cam manufacturers highly recomend it. The more spring pressure and cam rate of lift ( cam action) you have to the more critical the breakin.
Yes using stock type rocker covers with the factory oil drippers would really help with lubing these rockers.

Once a rocker "galles" {metal transfer} during breakin, it soon fails just like the picture shows.

Try again using Moly breakin lube and GM EOS. Consider removing the inner valve spring coil on each valve during initial run in. This will reduce the spring pressure during breakin and make life with ball stud rockers a lot easier.
Don;t forget to replace the inner coils before ya do the "warranty run"
RPM over 3500.

I've found the Crane cams roller tip heavy duty ball stud type rocker to be superrior over all (material and heat treat).
the ratios are just as accurate as the comps claims. they are also lighter.
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...umber=11807-16

Thanks Dewey, those guys over there are eager to jump in and help you diagnose and point you in the right direction.


The rockers were lubed with moly engine lube, and the inner springs were off for initial cam breakin, and run at 2000-3000 only during breakin, right after which I put the inners back in. I didn't rev it above 3500 for the first 500miles. I even primed the whole engine before firing it. I hadn't run the EOS in typical oil changes because I was under the impression it was for breakin only.

Thanks for some useful information and ideas F-Bird. THAT is most definatly welcome and appriciated.

Bro, I would call Crane and ask them. They may be able to point you in the right direction:confused: Hope you figure it out! If and when you do, please, keep us posted incase this happens to anyone else here @ TGO. It seems we always miss the follow up on car problems, so let us know what is the end result:)

i wouldnt post the follow up based simply on the fact that people jumped him for posting his findings and possible problems so that others might be aware of them. id say screw it and let them find out for themselves.

Ture, however, this forum is for helping our fellow brothers, thirdgeners;) . I would not post the results for the negatron's (infact they should just be ignored!), but instead, for the people interested in learning from each others mistakes, problems, or what have ya. I say please, post the end results. It could be me or you wiht a similar problem in the future.

Schwick- Schwick - Schwick.

(Sound of Vader backin' off...)

Yeah, but it's just that it happens so rarely. You have probably observed yourself many times that a member posts a thread with a "problem" and later replies with the infamous "Never mind". I guess it's too easy to get in the defensive mode.

You may well indeed have had a problem with the pivot ball heat treat, material, or form/shape. The unfortunate part is that now that they've overheated, it would be very difficult to diagnose a metallurgical problem. Of course Comp is going to be defensive. They've likely seen hundreds of these problems caused by assembly issues rather than manufacturing, but it happens. Have you called them?

It may be possible to send in some of the other parts from the same sets for analysis. My guess is that they should be inbterested in that, even if they don't want to.

Good point, cause you know that it would be just damned near impossible to pin point that moment that a rocker stud breaks off while cruising down the freeway. :bs:

It is smart people like yourself that make this site so helpful. :doh:

Should other people with these rockers inspect them for problems or abnormal wear? I have a set of these that I would have installed about the same time as Paul(original poster).I also have the same heads, pushrods, and so forth.

Will the discoloring be the first sign that something is wrong?

Just a little worried now.

Three things to cause this. Too much friction, poorly polished mating surfaces. Too little lubrication, poor oiling. (I'd think with the oil spray/splash in a typical small block there should be no problem there) Or too much pressure on the pivot. Well, too late to examine the polishing. Lube problem would get them all. Pressure? Coil bind or valve guide contact? Should have destroyed the cam quick, but you never know. Maybe there is no answer to this one. Put on a set of full roller rockers and be done with it.

Rodney, what are your spring pressures? Brandon was was saying that solid lifters like mine, flow oil more, and thus the possability for the stream to miss the rocker or not lubericate it enough.

My seat pressure is 140 and open at max lift is about 330. Comp says that these rockers are rated at 350. My springs <i>should</i> be stiffer than yours since you are hydro.

I have 11 other rockers that still look perfect, it wouldn't be too difficult for comp to test should they want to.

Edit: I wanted to state that Vader, and those posting useful information on these forums, my rant was not directed at you, but rather the people that have nothing better to do but post to use the search button/make people out to be dumber than they are. For that I apologize, but do not retract my general statements above.

With 140LBS seat pressure you're definatily "on the edge" Why not reduce the spring pressure?

Only run just enough for the RPM you'll hit. I'd get it down to 110seat 300 open. What cam are you using?

Lots of spring pressure, .570" lift and a stamped steel rocker arm and you are asking for trouble.

The springs are what cam maker Harold Brookshire told me to run for his Solid Lunati Camshaft. I will not change the springs. Since the rockers are shot already, I'm getting the rollers.

Your spring pressure seems right, your rocker arms dont for the application.

Well then you can't be to ready to condem Comps rockers. The spring pressure is just too high for these or
any other ball type rocker to live for too long.

I'll bet if you were to consult H.B., you'd find you could reduce the spring pressure by some and gain a lot of durability. Cam grinders tend to go max on spring recomendation (for a pure racing environment), but valvetrain life oon a street motor is another story. Got to ask yourself, how much power will I be making in another 5000miles of street driving when the cam wears out. Then who are you gong to blame. Your cam is a relativly short duration grind. Won't need much rpm over 6000 for maximum performance. You have enough spring pressure to go 7500-8000rpm. Don't nessessairily have to replace the springs, just remove shims or us +height locks.
I'd consider going to a 1.5:1 rocker on the exhaust side too. 1.6 rockers mostly help the intake side on a small block. the higher the rocker ratio, the more spring pressure required to control the valvetrain ( especialy on a cam grind that was intended for a 1.5 rocker.)
Send H.B. an email at Lunati and see if there isn't some meat in what I'm saying.

I've got an email off to Harold but here is what my original talk about springs to him went when upgrading the cam.

"The springs you have now are 1.460" OD, correct? With 110 lbs at 1.800" and 275 lbs at 1.250"?
This pressure is a little lighter than what I like to run, although it looks like one heck of a good hydraulic spring.
I've got to check at work today to see what Lunati's part number for my old 8424 spring is. I think it is what they call a 73100.
I rated the 8424 at 130 lbs at 1.800" and 330 lbs at 1.25", and it worked perfectly for 23 years. The OD was 1.450".
I will answer you tonight.

UDHarold "


Told him it was a street/strip motor. No one told me anything about my roller tips being not good for this application, or about the lift. After reading the paperwork with the roller tips I figured 330 open should be good vs the 350 they said should be max. If I would have known this was a possability, I would have changed. But the fact remains..... 5000miles on them.... check/set lash... and the next day after driving 40miles I have 5 bad ones.... As a test I put some old rockers back on and fired her up, oil coming out each hole nicely!

A post from Mike @ Lewis Racing about spring pressures... "As for seat pressure, a little more is in my opinion within reason not a primary concern as this is not what kills cams & is what insures the valve seats & doesn't bounce as badly. And also not to answer for Harold but I think his primary concern is that the valves follow his lobes as intended without killing them "


Harold makes those unsymetrical lobes :D

Got my Pro Magnum full rollers today.

All you Comp elitests..... should be happy to know that they didn't inclube their famous red lube OR inscructions!

Not that I need them, but some might. Interesting though no?

<img src="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/331508_120_full.jpg">

Crower stainless steel rollers...go for the over kill.

far too much cam for those rockers...

as a rule of thumb for those who are building, never rely on what the manf. claims as a max - always give yourself a lot of room!

For the person who said about reducing spring pressure, that is what keeps th evalves from floating.. reduce that, and u reduce your liklyness that your motor lives long about 5500...

Hopefully a lesson learned - bad product from comp? who cares, we know they arent going to do anything about it... besides that, are they really obligated? parts are parts, and really, anything that is going in a motor thats going to take some abuse is pretty difficult to warrenty... espcially when you have no control over installation.

What im saying is, ur error or comps error, it doesnt matter, nobody will ever be able to distinguish who's it was! ya just have to suck it up, and always go for the over kill.

I run the crane golds right now - they have about 10k on them, and about 3 seasons of circle track racing... they are going inthe garbage this winter... why? because im not chancing one breaking... they are aluminum...

Anyways, good luck in your venture, the magnums should suit your application much better than what you had. ball type rockers don't belong in a high lift, heavy spring rate environment, as we had this happen season after season... which is why springs and rockers were replaced every month (rules mandated stock rockers...)

That's what I'm using. Heavy, but sturdy and they fit under the centerbolt covers.

how much are the rebuilds for them? Do they even offer a rebuild kit for them?

The pro mags fit under centerbolts. Well, tall ones atleast.

You must have a pot full of money. Non of what you said makes good sense.

You definately need to limit the spring pressure to just enough to get the job done and no more to get any kind of life out of ball stud type rockers and flat tappet cams. They will only with stand so much pressure, (Unless you like buying new ones all the time.)
More is not better when it comes to a street motor or a motor that has to last. You're assuming a lot by stateing that the motor will valve float at 5500rpm with the spring pressure I recomended. You don;t know that. There are too many variables. ( spring harmonics, valvetrain weight, cam action. etc etc But it doesn't take that much pressure to control the valvetrain at 6000rpm.
(unless your valvetrain is unduely heavy. or the cam grind isn't right.)

At 13.0 ets this combo's performance leaves a lot to be desired. (considering the parts used) All that cam action is not getting him any extra power. Just ripping up $$$parts$$$$. There is a big difference between what works on a full race motor that does not have to last and what works on a street motor.

13 flat with street tires and no chassis tuning.

It's a solid low 12 second motor, that according to feel so far, pulls until 6200rpm. This is with a rather restrictive exhaust.

It doesn't matter what you think my combo has to be desired or not. The fact of the matter is, like the other guy said... parts failed, there will be theories till we are all blue in the face, but no concrete evidence. And my lash hasn't changed much at all in the 2000miles on this cam, wouldn't that indicate the cam isn't "wearing out" because of all that spring pressure? I drive it quite hard, and 2000miles is quite a few passes as the strip no?

While you might think my spring pressure is high, however I'm going to leave it to the specific cam designer as to what he wants run on that cam for a STREET/Strip motor. I had a nice long conversation with him about this cam, and longevity was a concern in that conversation.



End of discussion.

Maybe its me, but i believe thats what i said - ball type rockers only live so long....

And lessen the spring pressure to just enough to get the job done? umm yeah definately, but if your using the springs speced out for that cam, your telling me that using a lighter spring is ok to save the rockers? i mean, don't worry about the valves, they are cheap... :doh: YOU make no sense... you don't lessen valve spring pressure to make rockers live... nuff' said.

Also, money to burn? nope, its called preventative maintence... how many circle track motors have you worked on? not any since you don't realise how often valvetrain parts are swapped out on those motors. with the rule restricting to stock stamped steel rockers, and spring sizes, the beating the valve train takes, takes its toll on the springs, and rockers... period. its not throwing money away, it keeps pistons out of valves, and if a guy who has his 6 of his motors in the top 10 in the featherlight modified series, and a couple in the top 10 in the busch north series says so, then i think my advice is sound. I'm sorry but you don't reduce spring pressures to make the valve train live, the idea is to use the right parts to begin with.

I'm refering to a roller cam motor, which i believe is what was being used. The lifters are heavy, hence the need for heavier springs. Wether an assumption or not, if you have a decent cammed 350, your going to need heavy springs. As im sure you know the ramp speeds on aftermarket cam are very high for rollers - so claim a bad cam design or whichever, but you still need the spring pressure. its a well known piece of knowledge that just about any performance roller cam (lets say 225+ duration and 500 and up lift) will start to experiance valve float with stock lifters around 5500... see it on the engine dyno in the shop all the time. its great if you make all ur power before then, but what about that missed shift? a heavy spring motor will live just fine on the street, you just need the right parts...



sure, 13.0 motor - on a non setup chassis, and with valve train problems. if you ask me, thats not much to judge a motor on, besides using parts not up to the task. but Yes your right of course, its nothing to be proud of yet, and i dont thin kthat was the point. but the race motor im talking about is hardly a full race motor... its a rules restriced motor - only thing not off a stock v8 is the headers and the cam... everything else had to be a stock part, and unmodified. Besides that, my advice was used in general. I believe most people know when somehting does or doesn't apply to them. So therefore, your really just making a big deal out this for no reason what so ever. What's even more hilarious is that you have no idea who i am, and i have no idea who you are - so why the beef? there is no misinformation in my post, and now your merely causing a confusion. I don't mean to insult you, but if you don't believe in over building the valve train, and DO think that you can get away with lower spring pressures, then your nuts, because you WILL get away with it, for a while... until you miss that shift and find out how on the edge of destruction your top end is.

happy driving,

Steve

Hehe Enough Said, because that sums it up right there.

FWIW This is a Solid Tappet Motor. BTW Fbird, my car weighs 3800lbs. So in it's current state, I think 13flat at 107mph street tired is respectable atleast.

Absolutely respectable.
No insult intended. My point was that the
valvesprings are way overkill for the performance level. Going to a $400 set of roller rockers is one way of curing it. (if you can afford it.) But since this motor won't need near the spring pressure to control the valvetrain at a modest 6000-6200 rpm instead of 7500rpm you could get some needed reliability out of
the ball stud rockers by reducing the spring pressure and pick up some cam and lifter life to boot. Like I stated before, this is nopt a circle track motor. it's a street motor big difference.
To prove my point go to the drag strip and try shifting the car at 6000rpm and then what ever rpm you have been using and compare time slips. I'll bet this motor needs no more than 6000rpm to best perform, therefore does not need such extreme spring pressure. I'll even go further and say the 1.6 rockers aren't getting you any actual time slip gain either.
to perform or last.

To the circle track motor builder:
This is a street motor, not a race motor that has to last a few races. Big big difference. You can go on and on about all that is required to make a high rpm race motor run but it won't work on a flat tappeted, ball stud rockered street motor that has to perform and last.
Like 30-50,000 miles.
If the poster wants to change over to a roller rocker, thats fine but I'll bet he'll still have trouble with flat tappet cam life if the valve spring pressure exceeds about 110-120lbs seat and 320 open.
this is independent of the maximum rpm. {of course you don't want to over rev it, thats what rev limiters are for}
Over time (less time than you or your customers will like) exessive spring pressure will just flat out wear out the flat tappet cam and lifters and rockers.

A street motor is more like a marine motor{than a circle track motor} in its design and requirements.
I've had some experience in what works and what doesn;t work in both.

A roller cam setup is totally different and not relevent to this discussion.

Let us know how you make out in another 5000miles.

:burnout:

at about 8,000 miles and no problems... :)

.double.

Maybe YOU would not notice the sudden skip when a cyl stops firing, but I would.

Case proven in your post.


-- Joe

Umm, why would that ever cause a cylinder to stop firing?

Why would a valve not opening cause a cyl to not fire? Your kidding right?

The rocker stud BROKE off.

-- Joe

if the exaust valve does open, where is all the exaust gas going to go when the intake valve opens.... and how is the air/fuel charge going to enter the chamber? when valves don't open, your car sure isn't going to run right.

I didn't even see that. All I saw was the burnt rocker.

I'm sure you meant doesn't open, but if the exhaust valve opens then the exhaust gasses will go right out the exhaust port. ;)

His second picture post showed the broken stud.

Frobozz just wanted to jump on the bandwagon and rip into this guy, and in turn made himself look like a fool. Nothing new on here.


-- Joe

It was an exhaust valve stud that broke.... so, the cyl fills, compresses, explodes.... has no where to go until the intake valve opens and all that rushes into the plenum and fubars the other intake charges...... It wouldn't even idle, and sounded horrible as I was slowing down and pulling over.

This, a cyl not firing is true, from a certain point of view.

Like darth vader murdering anakin. :D

Sometimes it helps to actually read a post before replying.:doh:

Well, besides all the typical TGO accusations, I find this informative. At least now I know one thing to look for on mine.

I'm running the same rockers myself, but no problems yet. But I'm running lighter springs (110 lbs.)...maybe that's the diff, not sure.

First it was the 4340 forged Scat crank I read about a month or so ago, and now this!! I have both in my engine right now!! :doh:

Anyways, I hope full rollers solves your problem.