Muscle or Sport
 

In my Opinion, As probably most would agree with me Our 3rd Gens were basically the middle transition period for when the F-body moved from being a Muscle Car to a Sports car.

And it is viewed by many people as being a Muscle car while being Viewed by many others as being a Sports car. So we're split basically.

Admit it or not This simple comparison between muscle and sports decides how we modify the looks of our cars and how we think of them. In the end if the owner believes say its more of a sports car they will mod it to that extent, and for muscle the same thing.
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So for this discussion Do you believe The Third Gens were more of a Muscle Car than a Sports car? Or More of a Sports car than a Muscle Car. And how have you modded your Cars to reflect that of your opinion?
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Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I am re-opening this thread at the OP's request.

This is not a thread to bicker about if the F-body is a Sports Car or a Muscle car.

Post up your Mods that support your opinion that you have done to your car.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Cheers and ty for reopening it

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

To put it in a friendly way, the reason for this schism is that GM made the F-body into a very versatile platform

For reasons posted in v1.1 of this Thread I still believe the ponycars are no musclecars, and never will be, but to stick with v2.0 I think it will be best to leave definitions out of the equation and stick with emotional value?

For me the third generation F-bodies make fine sportscars.

I purchased my car, a 1989 305 TBI RS, stock (original exhaust, original distributor cap, original sparkplugs and original lambda sensor) somewhere 2 years ago, with 187k Kilometers (116k miles) on her. I decided to ..., and then I lost a lot of money and stopped planning for a year and a half.

About 6 months ago I saw the car sitting in my garage and decided to restore it to it's original shape, using original part replacements and leave it at that.

While working on the car I started to notice that a lot of these stock parts aren't all that bad, the rest is therefor even worse then I could imagine :)

I started off with a basic tune and clean of the car.
New sparkplugs
New distributor
New cables
New wiring for chassis and interior lights
New battery and alternator

New exhaust, from headers over cat to Dynomax Super Turbo cat back
New Brakes (one main area to improve on) now EBC calipers, discs and red-stuff pads
New suspension (yellow Konis and powdercoated WS6 springs)
New stabilizer ends

At that point I figured I might as well, so I did, clean the complete undercarriage and coat it in POR15.

From here on I will clean the existing stabilizers and powdercoat them,
replace lower control arms, panhard bar and torque bar by tubular products, fit 16" wheels with 245 tires and work on getting somewhere around 275-300 hp from the engine, as well as convert the whole to manual transmission.

In the meantime I also need a set of front seats and a paintjob for the car.

All of the work I think shows that the mods go towards sportscar rather then muscle.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

im going to go with sports car....to me a muscle car has loads of power from the factory, its not always about the looks. i think that if a 3rd gen came with a 400 HP 396 bbc would make it a factory muscle car. to me when these cars are left stock they are a great sports car. they are quick, but not fast, and they handle great, better than anything else on the road up until recent years and except for the corvette.

this is just my opinion

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I beleave that the 3rd Gen. Camaro/Firebird was born a sports car. It just did not have the power to be called a muscle car. I may be mistaken but I also believe Slash was asking what direction we were going with the modifications of the car. Some are aiming at the low sleek sports car look/performance while others are aiming for the muscle car/¼ mile look/performance.. I am going for the muscle car look/performance with the slight rake and fatter rear tires with the Weld Pro star wheels,etc. As far as the Camaro/Firebird not having the power to be called a muscle car ,that's why a lot of guys that a can afford to are building the higher hp/torque engines.They are making it a muscle car. Im building the car to match the image/performance that I want it to be.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

i have a 5 speed.. so it drives like a muscle car for me.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I made mine into a hybrid. Powerful drivetrain with upgraded handling capabilities. I can hit the drag strip and then on the way home hit the twisties.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

right now my car is on hiatus but i'll list my plan(s) and you can decide, though i'm leaning towards muscle.

84 Z28.
i plan(ned) on putting a daytona iroc hood, but now thinking about getting a functional Z28 hood, maybe even take the flaps out and put little grilles in.

i want the 5" spoiler. oh yeah.

the love/hated 1 piece aluminum louvers on the hatch.

for engine i've change my mind more than a woman's on what to wear, still not sure, 5.3?

i guess me personally: if the words raw,rugged,tough come to mind, then its a muscle car. if the words sleek, smooth, stylish (not that muscle cant be) come to mind, then it may teeter over to a sports car.

*there are exceptions to every case.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

To me it's not about the car's performance.

It's about the way the car makes you feel when you are behind the wheel.

When I think of a sports car, I think of a high end European car, like a Ferrari or a Lambo or a Porsche; I think of a car that when you get in, you feel like the "upper crust", and I think of the cars as always being new. When I think of being behind the wheel of a sports car, I feel like everyone who's looking is looking at you, and wondering what your job is, or how much money you have. When I think of a sports car, I think more about how you'd feel the price tag when you got behind the wheel, in terms of feeling flashy.

When I think of a muscle car, I think of the steel-bodied door slammers with lopey idles; I think of a car that when you get in, nothing else matters--you are the king of the road, and everyone is looking at you. When I think of being behind the wheel of a muscle car, I feel that everyone who's looking is looking at the car, and appreciating what that car is--it's about the car, not you.

If you've never seen the Top Gear road test of the '68 Dodge Charger, he explains the feeling of the muscle car pretty well when he acknowledges that it can't turn or stop, says those things are duly noted and immediately filed under irrelevant, and that he knows now that he wants one--that to me is what a muscle car is.

So for me, my car is steel and it has white letter tires, and it's loud. When I get in it, I know people are looking at it, and appreciating it, rather than wondering what my job/house/wife are or look like. So for my car, based on what little has been done, it's a muscle car.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Muscle car, for the simple fact that it's a V8 hogg just like the Stang.

Attachment 400098

Attachment 400099

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

muscle for sure, maybe cause i have the 5 speed, biggest reason i bought the car and pull it out of the field that it was in

maybe this pic will help in the muscle look
Attachment 400097

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Yeah the 5-speeds feel very different. Back off of one and hear that exhaust rumble. very sweet! grrrr

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

even though my exhaust is stock, people still look when i have pedal down or even just going though the gears, or down shifting up to a stop sign. love the 5 speed, no other way to drive these cars, and i have driven a buddys 82 trans am with a 3 speed auto, didnt feel like it had a much power and had a built 350...

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

A Miata is a "Sports Car". A Camaro is a Muscle Car.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Amen. I have also driven a 350. not as much fun. not nearly. I was debating between a 350 auto or a 5 speed 305 and after driving it.. it felt like something I would never get bored with. Puts a smile on my face each time i get her out.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

You forgot "For Women" in your definition of the Miata;)

My definition of "sports car" has always been a car with 2 seats. So by default I guess Thirdgens would be considered "Muscle Cars". That being said, I've always viewed the Thirdgen Camaros as the "Muscle Cars" and the Thirdgen Firebirds as the "Sports Cars" of the F-body line.

When most people think of the pony car/muscle car wars of the late 60's/early 70's they automatically mention of Camaros, Mustangs, Firebirds, Challengers, Chargers, Chevelles, etc. No one mentions Corvettes, Ferraris, Porsches, etc.

As for mods to mine, I am leaning more towards handling but with a healthy dose of power. For 'power' mods I have swapped in a 350 and am currently swapping in a 3.73 posi. Eventually I will upgrade the cam, swap to a set of good used Vortec heads, upgrade to a 383, and probably go back to fuel injection using Megasquirt or something similar.

For 'handling' mods I have upgraded the sway bars, coil springs, shocks/struts, and installed all new poly bushings in front. I kept the T5, and will upgrade to LT1 rear discs and C4 front brakes before the winter is over. Eventually I'll add solid strut mounts, strut tower brace, subframe connectors, all poly bushings in back, upgrade the panhard bar, torque arm, and LCAs, and swap to better shocks/struts and tires.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Well whether or not they are muscle or sport, there sure isn't much muscle to them...

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

it was in a time where they restricted the power. they were forced to first, get a better handling on fuel injection to make it more reliable. 2nd was to make power out of these new guidelines, in just 10 years 82-92 you can clearly see the stride that they made, which has eventually brought us LS engines, and within the next few years we'll have another generation

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

^ I couldn't have said this better myself, Most forget it was the Testing of the Fuel injection systems used during our years that led up to the LS powered beasts you all envy today.

^ I couldn't agree more on This The Appearence and how it brings attention is a main reason it can be considered a muscle car, and yes Top Gear is one of my favorite Shows to watch I've seen almost every episode, that ep was funny lol he mapped off an area the size of his garage w/ string to see if it would fit and it wouldn't but he didn't care.

I can agree alot with you aswell, I really like the Daytona Iroc Hood, but tbh i might love the SS hood a bit more. I absolutely love the 5" Spoiler from Hawks ThirdGen but i'm cursed with having the third brake light on the spoiler on my 88 so i can't use it unless i fabricate and put the light in it somehow, or switch to a 86 or 91/92 hatch with the 3rdbrake being in that instead of the spoiler.

^ Yessir you are right and hit the point of the Topic right on the head with your post.
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Tbh I'm happy with how this thread is going, Its staying on Both topics very well and seems to be gaining interest among members. Its definitely showing that my idea/theory that their view of it being a sports or muscle is a good deal of how they view the car and how its modded accordingly.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Damn, I should´ve thought of that :doh:

Attachment 400087

About 2" left towards the rear wall, 8" short at the front.

As far as hood options go for these cars, my favorites are the Joengblood/Sunoco and the ASCD SS hood. Both again definately have a sportscar feel to them.

EDIT:: don´t mind the licence plate. They were only on there for the ride home.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

3rd gen's are sports cars all the way. But in stock form they dont have enough power for me. Making it a nice street car with some hp is what the doctor ordered. My car eats dodges and cr@ps fords.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4004_large.jpg

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4002_large.jpg

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

At first i was thinking, oh crap, not this discussion again. But now I see what you're getting at, and it is kinda interesting....

I think third gens are neither, and have modified accordingly. Fbodys have too many seats, so not a sports car. No big block, so its not a muscle car. Listed as "compacts" (no kidding), even the 1st gens w/ big blocks were too small to be muscle cars, hence the pony car name. I'll go with that, but what does pony car even mean any more. Now we have the stupid sport coupe name which lumps in crap like the Prelude, Beretta and Monte Carlo.

So, because of the vague class, I've been free to make it what I want. I'm targeting exotics. :D Weight reduction has taken it to a hair over 3000 pounds. Another 100 lost and I'll be happy. Should be pretty close to 50/50 distribution too. Then I'll lower it 2 more inches so it's 46 inches tall. With some better tires under the modified suspension it should be able to do 1 g or better on a skidpad. Finally, the engine will be turned up to about 350 - 400 hp. Enough to easily slay the Testarossa and NSX, the exotics of the 3rd gen era.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Yeah i made the thread over the theory of the muscle vs sport being a main idea behind how people build their thirdgens.
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You have an interesting way of looking at this and i can say i've honestly never noticed but the Thirdgen does look a BIT like other 80s exotics The testarossa being a good example. The Long hood, the short back hatch, the slanted windshield. The basic lines look similar indeed

BTW: nice quote in your signature lols

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My Camaro
Attachment 400084

Testarosa
http://www.sportscarrentlasvegas.com...testarossa.jpg

A Firebird
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/1le/87ta2.jpg

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Oooooh, we got a real bad *** in here.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Hell yeah man that 84 kicks ***!

The only thing that gets me is he looks more muscle then any of us and still claims to be sports car?

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

To me the definition of a muscle car is taking a midsized platform, and stuffing the biggest, baddest engine you can in there. Look at what pontiac did with the tempest, the chevy with the Chevelle. Could go on and on.

Anybody that sees a parallel between the way those cars were born into existence and how even the first generation Camaros were is trying too hard to make their F-body into something they are not.

If I was running a car show that was for muscle cars only, I would stop every camaro, firebird and mustang at the door and tell them to go home or find a pony car show.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

cowl hood= muscle.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Thats silly.. You're saying GTO's aren't muscle cars because they dont have cowls?

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

http://www.carhobby.com/70oSC442.jpg

I can accept "cowl looks muscle" but not "cowl = muscle" because there is definately more to it then that.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

no i'm saying if it has a cowl hood i dont see it being classified as sporty.
if a vehicle doesn't have a cowl hood, it can still be muscle.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

:p

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/attachm...bo-front-2.jpg

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Imo, the third gen is a sports car that can be made into a muscle car. :nod:

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I have always considered a sedan or coupe with lots of torque to be a muscle car and a small light weight car with great top end power to be a sports car.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Lets keep on track a bit guys so thread doesn't get locked and edited a 2nd time lol
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Remember the main topic is which you believe it would fall under category wise.. and How have you / or how are you planning to mod your 3rd gen based off of your view on the car being such

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I think third gens are muscle cars. The heavy metal body, the thundering exhaust, the terrible gas mileage, and the oohs and aahs you get everytime you drive somewhere. These words all explain how my car is (with the 350). Sports cars to me are just cars that people find "pretty". For instance my mom has an 04 mustang with bright red paint that she likes just for the fact that it is pretty. She would like more power but she just cares about how her car looks. So, Sports car: light weight, something to look at, and has 2 doors and 4 seats or less. Muscle cars: heavy cars, loud V8 engines with a good amount of power, and in my case not good looking but bad a** looking. In fact my mom drives my car and she says it handles way better than her Mustang and I just said I know it's because it's a muscle car!

Future plans for mine? Not too much except for restoring it to floor room condition and adding a whole new louder and more thundering exhaust.

In my oppinion you can feel a muscle car and you know when the instance you start it up or see it drive by. I could go on for hours but trust me you know when you have a muscle car. Dont compare our cars to the 69 camaro SS but it is too hard explain but you WILL know if it is a muscle car.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

hmmmm sports car = 2 seats and sleek and power
Muscle Car = seats 4-5 with rumble exhaust and an aggressive look and power

Muscle:
Nissan GTR, Mistu EVO, STI, Mustang, Camaro, Trans Am, Cuda, Challenger

Sports: Vette, S2000,Viper, 2 seat Ferrari, Miata

what did I do to show my muscle look? adding dual chrome exhaust tips and tinting out windows and blacked out formula wheels

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Cowl hood=ugly hoosier trash




Sorry if this offends anyone. :waveman:

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

tbh i hate the Cowl hood myself, Only good cowl hood in my opinion was the functional cowl induction on the Chevelles lol. ;)
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The Sunoco Cowl hood isn't that bad tho, since it flows with the lines of the car better

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9972/47369072.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4923/43718560.jpg

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

nice!!!:lookhere:

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Thats a good example. I like the Subtle ones, Not the giant outlandishly big ones. I'm honestly not feeling the Hood pins though, I would've went for the bigger ones lol :x those just look too small to me

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

For the cowl hood, most people get it for looks and then some people get it as a necessity. If your driving a V6 and your rockin a 3" cowl the all show no go look is treibble to me. Every cowl hood is functional not just the ones on the chevelles. As long as the air clear is up in the cowl and sucking air from the windsheild.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

A 2" cowl looks quite ok on these cars, especially the steel cowl hoods with the ridge in the centre of the cowl.

Same as with the Turbo/Daytona, the Jongbloed/Sunoco and the ASCD/SS hood I see functionality for street and sports application as well, since the stock hood is very low. Upgrading the hood to any of the above hoods will allow for better cold-air flow as well as more space for a larger surface aircleaner

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I know this, but i was referring more to the size and style. I like the 3/4throttle and the flap opens up.
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I don't like the tall and ugly cowls, i like the smaller size cowls that still flow with the body lines, not extrude from the hood like it was yanked up.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Hehe you yankees are fun people........the 3rd gen is per definition a GT car its not sportscar as these are 2seaters 2doors and is purely for sporty driving fun.
The GT car is a car that is a 2+2 seater 2doors with a sporty performance made for high speed cruising to the French riviera or Niagara falls for a weekend with your mistress and with some bags to big for the sports nasty comfort car,then you need to come home before the wife suspects any humpy humpy and this has to be done fast in your nice sporty hi speed comfortable GT car.
Thus the 3rd gen is playing in the same class as Porsche 911/944/928 some Aston Martin cars and some Ferraris like 599/Testarossa and not least the Mercedes SL car class so be proud of our 3rd gen Camaro Gran Tourismo it has a great heritage but thats my opinion.

Best regards Mats

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

Maybe we can post some more photos of our cars showing how far we have gotten with the look. I love photos in a thread. I'm going street/muscle .

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6933/92398420.jpg

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

i have a 355 from a 79 vette. motors pretty modded as far as performance. tunnel ram with shotgun scoop. its slammed like a sports car, but the rear sits a little higher than the fronts like the old school muscle car look. i consider my camaro a muscle car.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

It looks the deal as well.
Good looking car you have there, although I like the cowl on slash's camaro slightly better. I really like the red with black stripe combo as well, but my girlfriend would kick me out of the house if I painted mine red.

Unfortunately no pictures of my car. The only external modification I did so far is put a dent in the passenger side door :(

@ project-RS, do you have any pictures of that?
I'm currently envisioning an old guy with a straw hat and a shotgun sitting on your passenger side fender. I somehow guess that doesn't quite cover it however.

Re: Muscle or Sport
 

I would say sport.....I bought my Iroc cuz of the body mods the PO did...the hood is a 4in and fiberglass....this let's a lot of heat out...the notch back is fiberglass.....the back piece that holds the zr1 tail lights is also fiberglass....

Things I would like todo to my sports car is......

More power.....rebuild the 350 out to 383
OBD 2 conversion
Targa top
Better rims
Front air dam.....some how make this thing go up and down it drags the ground going in and out of my drive
Air bag it ......lol
SFC


Some how I don't see a pontiac fiaro, as a sport car. It has 2 seats..
The 911 my old boss had, had a small back seat. And that was a sport car...