|
Welding info I'm looking for online sources for welding info, maybe how to's. I want to fab up a custom STB, and eventually turbo headers, and all i really know is backyard wire-feed and stick techniques. Any good info would be appreciated, even links to welding how-to books in online stores. |
I had a class in high school on welding, but was alittle rusty...sooo.... I went to the local parts house and bought a haynes manual on welding, it had a lot of good stuff in there. covered mig, tig, stick, oxy/ax, plasma, types of metals, techniques, etc, etc good manual for the money, you can get it anywhere that sells haynes manuals (autozone, etc) |
reading about it will only get you so far. you really need to pratice and actually do it. two things most people don't know and over look. anything with a flux you drag and thing with a gas you push. pay attention to polarity since it makes a big differance in the results. if i were you and interested i'd either find a course at a vo tech school or find someone with a little knowledge and skills to show me and then pratice. |
that's my problem, it's hard to take a course like that when you are in the Army. And the Army MAKES us mechanics send any welding jobs to the welding shop, which makes it hard to pick up on this stuff. I know i need to practice, i was just lookin for general info, like why you have to use AC when TIG (GTAW) welding aluminum, and which rods you should use when welding certain things, stuff like that... |
you use ac for gtaw because in part you want to ball the eletrode and high freq only works on ac. as for electrode selection get a filler metal catalog. you should be able to weld 99.9% or any thing you do smaw (stick) wise with 6010, 7018, and 308-16 |
Can we back up a little here to the basics, I (and surely others)am completely ignorant on the subject and would love to know more. Mainly I am interested in the differences between the various types of welding, pro's and con's of each, difficulty level, price, and ideal (automotive related of course)applications of each. Any info for a rookie would be very appreciated! |
really ought to get a book and read up on it a little very basically i'll say this about a few of the ore common processes stick cheap, wide range of filler metals mig welds cool ,less chance of burn thru, easy to fill in gaps. lacks penetration high deposition rates easest to learn tig very slow, very high quality welds, high heat input, seems hard for lot of people to learn |
I prefer to TIG weld when I can because I like the finish, very clean. And since I mostly weld at home, the lack of sparks flying around are a big plus to me. Sometimes though a MIG welder is nice. Like those times when you are laying on your back trying to weld something over your head in a very cramped spot... Oh yeah, read some books, I read one called "performance welding" I have some formal traing with welding, but the books are good for a reference. But practice, practice, burn your fingers, and practice some more makes perfect.... ALWAYS WEAR YOUR HELMET...Flash burns don't look fun... |
I picked up a used Haynes manual on welding for $5 from eBay. It covers all the bassics of stick, TIG, MIG, and gas, as well as heating and cutting metal. Then practice, practice, practice. What's best depends on what you are trying to do. TIG is great, but slow & costly. MIG is fast on thin metal, but can't weld really thick stuff. Stick is probably one of the most versatile and cheapest. The principle is much like a TIG, but without the shielding gas. It takes a lot more skill to TIG or stick weld than it does to MIG. Stick isn't that good on thin stuff. It can be done, but it takes a long time, especially since you have to chip off all the slag between beads. Gas is great for certain kinds of stuff like cast iron where a lot of heat is used. Gas is very slow, but very controllable. If you're just getting started I'd say pick up a used stick welder and start screwing around with it in your spare time after reading a book or two. If you can stick weld MIG and TIG will be easier to master. Stick units are also the cheapest to buy initially. You can find them used for less than $100. Read the book though, because there is a lot of terminology surrounding welding that you will need to be up on in order to make a good decision about purchasing a welder. Definately alwasy wear a helmet. I had an old shield that I bought an auto dimmng lense for. The whole thing cost me maybe $50. How much are your eyes worth? |
if you want to get welding with a minimum of training get a good mig welder. A tig is more versatile but not as user friendly as a mig. Don't underestimate a good oxyacetalyne setup, it's low cost but it requires some skill. I have a mig and i do everything from headers to framework. Millermatic 200 |
I've got a stick welder. Old Miller unit. The guys at the welding shop said I'd never have a single problem with it. It's got two sides that allow me to weld stuff as thin as sheetmetal, or as thick as 1/2" plate in one pass. I can even weld thicker stuff, but I'd have to bevel the cut on both sides and then make a root pass and several filler passes, but I'm getting ahead of myself now. I've got an oxy/acetelene rig too, but I only use it for heating and cutting. I could weld with it, but it would require a different set of heads. The MIG is definately the simplest way to go in terms of mastery. All you need to do is set heat range and wire speed. Some even have stich timers and other cool features that can make easily repeatable welds, but these are usually found on the higher end units. Has anyone tried the kit that converts a stick welder to work as a TIG? I've ben considering it, but watn to get some input first. |
The conversion depends on if you want the HF start or not. Some tig welding can be done by starting the arc by scratching the torch on the material , but other material I think like aluminum needs to start the arc without touching the material, so you need an HF system to start the arc. Mig is easy, if you can figure out how to use a crayon, you can figure out how to mig weld. My son was 9 and he was laying better beads than I can after a little practice, I drink too much coffee |
Originally posted by SERPENT99 The conversion depends on if you want the HF start or not. Some tig welding can be done by starting the arc by scratching the torch on the material , but other material I think like aluminum needs to start the arc without touching the material, so you need an HF system to start the arc. Mig is easy, if you can figure out how to use a crayon, you can figure out how to mig weld. My son was 9 and he was laying better beads than I can after a little practice, I drink too much coffee You almost need both.:D Just my 2 cents.:) |
Originally posted by 85TransAm406 that's my problem, it's hard to take a course like that when you are in the Army. And the Army MAKES us mechanics send any welding jobs to the welding shop, which makes it hard to pick up on this stuff. I know i need to practice, i was just lookin for general info, like why you have to use AC when TIG (GTAW) welding aluminum, and which rods you should use when welding certain things, stuff like that... |
That's what I was looking for, thanks a lot. I just wanted to try to find a site so i didn't have to pay $10 for a book. I like the Miller site, and i've seen the lincoln site, but never found the Lincoln knowledge section. Nice! |
It is also real easy to make a decent looking weld that has no penetration with a MIG, especialy a cheaper one that doesn't have much adjustability. If your welding out doors you will need to run flux core wire in a MIG which is quite dirty. A good quality MIG is hard to beat for ease of use and versatility. A stick welder has advantages but it's a major pain in the A for a newbie. |
gmaw or mig is by far the easiest to make a very good looking weld that has no strength, big draw back to mig. with mig you need to keep the arc at the leading edge of the liguid weld metal. mig has a penetration at best equal to the wire diameter so if there's any weld metal under the acr you won't have any penetration. as for tig with a stick machine buy an air cooled torch and argon and you'll be all set except for welding white metals that require high freq. |
Why does anyone have trouble getting penetration with a mig? I just welded up a custom Y-pipe for a friend of mine and can get good discoloration through 1/4" thick steel. Wire speed down, voltage and gas up and go a little slower... It can also blow holes through .125" 321 stainless when I'm not paying attention, and weld 1/4" thick aluminum in one pass. Another question, why are you guys saying to not use the gas when welding MIG outside? :confused: My advice is to get a flux core MIG setup that has a kit that can be added for adding gas and regular wire at a later date (or go for the whole kit now if you have the money). I grew up on stick welding for heavy stuff and oxy-acetelene for cutting and soft metal brazing... Mig is by far easier to start with and master. Go to Home Depot and get some chunks of metal to experiment with... You may also want to go rent welders of different types to see what you can be comfortable with before buying. $35 a day plus materials at a couple of places... |
same here, never had any penetration problems, weld some scrap together and then take a hammer to it to see if it's getting it or not. I've always been able to tell if the weld didn't penetrate by looking at it. I weld outside all the time, sometime I have to sheld from the wind but that's no big deal. Stay away from those migs that run on 110 volts. |
I agree that it is easy to make MIG welds with next to no penetration for the beginner. The problem is that the wire will melt easily, and if the heat setting isn't right you just end up with melted wire clinging to the surface of the part you're trying to weld. You can lay down a beautiful bead like this that has no strength to it at all. I did this many times with the MIG in my Dad's shop before I really learned how to weld. Once I learned how to stick weld I understood the principles of penetration, blow through, and how to make a strong weld. After I understood those principles I could MIG weld with excellent results. The problem with MIGs is that they are too easy to use. If you don't understand what you're doing it's easy to screw up, but if you do then you can get great results in all sorts of metals. The MIG I used to use could weld 1/4" plate with a single pass, so penetration wasn't a problem. It's been used to weld frames back together and fix broken tractor parts, the results of which are all still together today. Some of them have even broken again at places other than the weld, so I know the weld has excellent integrity. If there's no wind outside you can use a MIG with shielding gas, but if there's wind the gas gets blown away from the puddle, and the weld will be full of contaminants, making it weak. That's why you would run flux core wire. The MIGs that can be converted to run shielding gas are a good way to keep the cost down initially. A friend of mine has such a unit and it is very high quality, but only cost a couple hundred bucks. I agree that 110 volt welders should be reserved only for people that don't weld a whole lot, or are only seeking to weld sheetmetal. They just don't have enough amperage to weld thick stuff. |
bnoon i say you can make very nice looking welds with mig and have no penetration at all because it's true. good discoloration isn't an indication of anything but heat and heat isn't good, depending on alloys. wire speed is amps as is stick out with gmaw, or mig, so you'd want the wire speed up not down. bnoon ever had one of your welds bent or RTed? i doubt it or you'd have a little better understanding of some of the dynamics involved. i'd also go as far as to say anydumbass or juts about any dumbass can make a functional weld on exhaust pipe. |
Ede, I agree with you that it's very possible to lay down a good looking weld (cosmetically) that has no strength, and I think that if you mean that the beginner can easily be fooled, then I agree whole heartedly, but a good welder can usually tell if you penetrated or not. The edge of the bead will be more flat and you can see it burn into the plate. Likewise you should be able to see the metal burn away at the root when welding. I posted this on the Chevy Talk board when someone asked a simliar question, feel free to comment on it, but hopefully it's helpful... On the different types of machines.... TIG - Tig creates beautiful welds, however its probably the most expensive machine, it's not very portable at all because it needs to be water cooled most of the time, although I've heard of air cooled systems. It's also more suited for thinner materials just simply due to the fact that it's more time consuming. On the other hand it can give great penetratration and the welds are very easily finished off. It creates less mess and is more efficient that way. It's one of the more difficult to learn, but the upside is the amount of control you have over your welds. Tig is very closely related to acetylene in terms of technique as you use a filler rod and heat the metal with the torch (in this case a tungsten), but you also have a foot pedal to control the amount of heat you want (to an extent). ARC - The slang term is of course STICK welding, because you burn an electrode rod (a stick) to use as a filler rod. Mostly suited for construction. I suppose you could technically use it for body work, but you'd have to get a small 110 machine for sheet metal and use very small arc rods. I particularly don't like the very thin rods as they aren't very firm and can be difficult to handle (they wobble). An arc welder could be very useful for heavy duty welding like frames, or shortening axles if you know how to do that sort of thing, but idealy it isn't suited for cars. It also creates a lot of mess. Welding with bare electrodes is very difficult to master, and your only other option is what the majority use, flux covered rods, which create a ton of slag and mess. MIG - You could teach a monkey to MIG weld if you set the machine for him. Mig is the autobody weapon of choice. Pull the trigger and go. It's really that simple. As with all other welders, you have to space out your welds, or you'll heat up the metal and warp it. FLUX CORE - Flux core welders are not technically MIG machines. They usually get lumped in with MIG's because all MIG machines can run flux core wire. Don't be fooled by those little 110 flux core welders on Ebay. They will not do what you want them to unless you're only doing thin body work all the time. Almost all of them don't even have a hookup for a bottle, so you can't upgrade them to a true MIG, and thus you can only run steel wire. You will not be able to run aluminum. They do not make alumium flux core wire. They DO make stainless flux core, but I believe it's only in .035 wire and most of these flux core units are .030 only (these numbers refer to the wire size. Flux core literally means the wire has a flux core center. Flux is what shields your welds from impurities so you have a good weld. MIG and TIG units use a gas shield, flux core units use flux cored wires and don't require a gas. Arc units have the flux on the electrode. As far as what machine, those machines you listed are hard to compare by what they have listed there, mostly because they don't list the same statistics for all of them. Things I noticed... The Miller already comes with a spoolgun, and it will weld up to 1/2" in a single pass, which is awesome. The Hobart lists duty cycles and appears to run quite a few different wire sizes. The Lincoln seems to have even better duty cycles than the Hobart. Duty cycle is the percentage of time you can use the welder per minute if I remember correctly, so 60% duty cycle is actually 100% of the time. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's what my welding instructor told me. As mentioned before Ebay is really the best place I've found to buy a welder IF YOU ARE BUYING NEW. If you find the right seller you don't even have to pay shipping. If you're buying used, don't waste your time. I would personally want to check out any welder in person before I spent the money on it, unless you're a complete welding expert and you know all the details beforehand. What machines to choose? A 110 will get most people by working on their car and most home projects, provided it'll go up to around 1/4" thick on a single pass, or just under. If you think about it, even car frames are only made of something like 3/16's material. 1/4" should be enough for any job on a car, and almost any home project. Keep in mind that 1/4" maximum in a single pass does not mean you can only weld up to 1/4". You just have to bevel the material and run multiple passes. If you want to run aluminum, I would invest in a spoolgun and a 220 unit. A spoolgun helps control the soft aluminum wire so you're not pulling your hair out when the wire tangles up 9 times per 5 beads. Most people have told me that to run aluminum on a regular basis you'll want a 220 unit, so that's what I'll be investing in. To run aluminum you're also going to want to change your gas. Most people run 100% argon, or a helium mixture. Btw, when I talk about 110 units and 220 units, I'm referring to the amount of current that goes through your wall socket for those who didn't pick up on that. That's also a pretty normal general description for a welder as _most_ 110 units are only rated up to 100 amps max, so it's an easy way to refer to a welding machines potential power. IF you really want good welding information, go to www.aws.org, that's the American Welding Society's web page, and they have a bulletin board to help with any technical questions, but welding really has to be learned hands on. If I didn't answer something, ask them, or shoot it this way and I'll try to answer it. I'm by no means an expert, I'm still taking classes, and I haven't found a job yet in the field, but that is my field so I think I'm somewhat qualified to help you out Looking back on what I posted there, I think I should have added a bit more on MIG, because what Ede said is very true. At the time I posted it, I was thinking basically sheet metal, but then most home welders use MIG when welding on frames and whatnot as well I think, so that should be said. Mathius |
i think whoever posted the part you quoted doesn't have a clue about welding or what is avaiable as far as welding equipment goes. i quit reading before i was half way down the page. gmaw, gtaw, smaw or mig, tig, and stick are all arc welding processes. you don't need a water cooled torch to tig weld. i've welded 24" sch 80 pipe with tig so that sort of shots the thin material idea in the *** for tig. |
You think something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=45032 would be alright to do somthing like making a strut tower brace (thats probably the heaviest thing it would ever be used for), minor exhaust work, and installing subframe connectors, or atleast getting them on the car long enough to take them somewhere to have them properly welded. Is that enough, or would I need somthing bigger, or would it require a differant type of welding? I don't really want a gas cylender around the house because somthing bad will come of that eventually in my house. Basically just somthing to mess around with, not do any serious work. |
i wouldn't buy it. i'd look for one from miller 1st and lincoln 2nd. make sure it's set up for solid wire and gas. |
yeah, that thing is a battery charger with a wire feed built into it. Definitly go for a lincoln or my favorite, a miller. Stay away from the inverter style welders, go for a good old reliable copper core transformer rig with a nice big bank of caoacitors. those inverter jobs just don't have the punch the transformer models have I would give my nuts for my millermatic 200. |
Originally posted by ede i think whoever posted the part you quoted doesn't have a clue about welding or what is avaiable as far as welding equipment goes. i quit reading before i was half way down the page. gmaw, gtaw, smaw or mig, tig, and stick are all arc welding processes. you don't need a water cooled torch to tig weld. i've welded 24" sch 80 pipe with tig so that sort of shots the thin material idea in the *** for tig. I didn't say you couldn't weld big pipes, I said it was more time consuming. In fact, it's being used more and more for root passes on pipe, because of the deep penetration. As far as water cooling, I said "MOST OF THE TIME". Of course those are all arc welding processes, all electric welding forms are. That's the basic fundemental of the weld is the electric arc that heats the metal by the electricity running between the grounded metal and the electrode or welding wire. The only form I can think of that isn't arc welding is acetylene, which isn't used much anymore except for cutting and brazing which isn't used much either anymore, mostly silver solder. But then again, I don't have a clue about welding or what is avaiable as far as welding equipment goes Jesus Christ. Mathius |
I've used my 220 volt arc welder to weld wheetmetal as thin as 22 gauge. It isn't especially hard with a good welder and the right rod. I have a very good arc welder, which allows me to use a low frequency side to weld thin metals with good results, but it also has a high frequency side that allows me to weld 1/2" plate in one pass. I have to admit that a large part of my sucess is the machine though. It was probably fairly expensive when it was new (don't know how much because it's old and my Dad bought it), but it is packed with good features. The secret to good arc welding is technique and the right rod selection. There are literally hundreds of rods to chose from. I've found that the best thing to do is go to the welding supply shop and tell the counter guy what you're welding. He'll set you up with the right rod every time. The slag created by arc or flux core MIG welding is easily removed if you chip it right after you finish welding. I just keep a chipping hammer and a stiff wire brsh right at my welding bench and hit it immediately after I set down the electrode. It is technically incorrect to reffer to a flux core MIG machine that cannot be converted to run shielding gas as a MIG. Technically it's a wire feed arc welder, but even books on the subject will still reffer to them as MIGs, so it is still the correct term in common useage. MIG, or metal inert gas welding started off as a means to weld aluminum, and originally it bore the trademarked name Heli-arc for helium shielded arc welding. |
the correct aws approved names are: GTAW gas tungston arc welding= tig GMAW gas metal arc welding = mig FCAW flux cored arc welding = flux core SMAW shielded metalic arc welding = stick there's about a hundred more but these are the big ones |
Originally posted by ede there's about a hundred more but these are the big ones I guess I am in the dark on the majority of industrial welding seeing as I mostly on use my TIG machine for light duty (read: automotive) stuff... |
Originally posted by ede bnoon i say you can make very nice looking welds with mig and have no penetration at all because it's true. good discoloration isn't an indication of anything but heat and heat isn't good, depending on alloys. wire speed is amps as is stick out with gmaw, or mig, so you'd want the wire speed up not down. bnoon ever had one of your welds bent or RTed? i doubt it or you'd have a little better understanding of some of the dynamics involved. i'd also go as far as to say anydumbass or juts about any dumbass can make a functional weld on exhaust pipe. Gas and amperage up, wire speed down keeps me from spreading needless slag over the surface and helps to penetrate before moving on. Perhaps my lack of professional experience is showing. I see your point on making a "pretty" weld though. I'm not a commercial welder as you seem to be, but I am no dumbass either. I have 25 years of hobby welding experience to draw on with my first welding project being a bicycle frame repair at the age of 6. Have I had any welds bent or RTed? No. But I made my bike jump off of the table top jump again after crashing the first time and breaking the crank bearing support tube. My friends were impressed and that's all I needed at the time. Since then, custom racing snowmobile frames, aluminum intake manifolds, stainless steel exhausts, back half prostreet cars (2) have all been welded in my garage. Almost all have been Brad tested. With my luck, you can bet a few of them have been and will continue to be bent. Though you may know what you're talking about, I certainly hope those pokes weren't intended for me personally. :( |
are we here trying confuse 85TransAm406, impress him, or are we trying to help him decide what he needs to get good value for the time and money he's going to invest in trying to gain the ability to weld? A good MIG is the answer. |
I see that you are relatively new to the boards, so let me impart a little information that I've picked up. Most of the time these threads start out with someone asking a question. Several opinions or comments follow. Then things spiral out of control. The thread turns into an argument as people try to prove that they are "right", even when all that can be stated on the subject is opinion! People post back defending themselves, and the whole thing turns into a mess that doesn't help the originator in the least. It sucks, but that's usually the way it goes. That being said, I think that to get started you should go with a MIG or a stick depending on what you can afford. The key is to educate yourself on the various types of machinery out there, and then make up your own mind! |
Originally posted by SERPENT99 are we here trying confuse 85TransAm406, impress him, or are we trying to help him decide what he needs to get good value for the time and money he's going to invest in trying to gain the ability to weld? A good MIG is the answer. The direction of the discussion got into a little bit of a tizzy over abilities. Sorry for contributing to that. |
Originally posted by TKOPerformance I see that you are relatively new to the boards, so let me impart a little information that I've picked up. Most of the time these threads start out with someone asking a question. Several opinions or comments follow. Then things spiral out of control. The thread turns into an argument as people try to prove that they are "right", even when all that can be stated on the subject is opinion! People post back defending themselves, and the whole thing turns into a mess that doesn't help the originator in the least. It sucks, but that's usually the way it goes. That being said, I think that to get started you should go with a MIG or a stick depending on what you can afford. The key is to educate yourself on the various types of machinery out there, and then make up your own mind! Back to the original poster, Lincholn has a book that I believe is called the Fundementals of Arc Welding, I think. You can probably get one at a welding supply store and it has alot of good info on most forms of welding. That would keep you busy for a while and probably answer alot of you questions. |
Missed the sarcasm there didn't you? Hope it wasn't lost on everyone... This is also sarcasm, I'm told it's tough to tell when I'm kidding. |
Originally posted by SERPENT99 I would give my nuts for my millermatic 200. As far as penetration/weld depth, that can be controlled (to an extent) by gapping the metal (particularly in butt-welds). But, there is no arguing that TIG is superior for neat "seamless" welds. You just have to have very clean conditions. But, to each his own... S-D |
But, there is no arguing that TIG is superior for neat "seamless" welds. Sorry, couldn't help myself. |
i run a miller bobcat for stick and the thing is a beast i have not had one problem with it for the stuf i do and it is nice to have the power to run tools and such on the site. i lernd how to weld with a oxcy and filler then i went to stick now i just got a mig i was like man this is tit :D |
there is alot of good basic information on process and technique on millers website....i forget the addy, but just do a search for miller. |
Yeah, someone posted miller's website above for the on-line education stuff, i've been checking it out, pretty good info. |
My opinion (who cares?) is that books are good for facts. I'm "old school" and I've found that getting a welding shield and watching over a man's shoulder, who knows what He's doing, and talking with Him about it is the best way to learn. In other words, "hands-on" experience is better than "book-sense". Only my opinion (then again, WHO CARES?). |
Originally posted by jmd88iroc-z My opinion (who cares?) is that books are good for facts. I'm "old school" and I've found that getting a welding shield and watching over a man's shoulder, who knows what He's doing, and talking with Him about it is the best way to learn. In other words, "hands-on" experience is better than "book-sense". Only my opinion (then again, WHO CARES?). |
You're right! Sorry. |
this is my welding library: Performance welding - Richard Finch Aircraft Welding - EAA aviation foundation The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding - Lincoln Electric (Bible!!) New Lessons in arc Welding - Lincoln electric Welders Handbook - Finch & Monroe I am enjoying Performance Welding Right now, good info on TIG Techniques. For general learning i like the Welders Handbook, although the info in it is a little outdated. Lincoln and Miller have a lot of info on their websites, I also like the American Welding Society forums http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/forum_show.pl The Books are great for learning the Tech stuff but nothing replaces practice, no matter how much reading you do, you will not be able to just pick up a welder and make good welds. Hey EDE, Do you have any experience with Inverters? I'm looking at the Miller Dynasty 200DX and the Thermal ARC prowave 185. Do you have any input on these choices? |
i love the inverter welders, millers is all i've used. can't remember the number. only draw back to an inverter is the price is usually more than an "regular" machine. i did see but not use one that had a high freq unit added to it for aluminum. |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:39 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands