"Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Does anyone know of this exisiting? It won't be too many years before early Thirdgens are going to be able to compete in such shows/classes.

I haven't seen one yet.

I would love to contribute to such a thing however especially being how many super low milage ones from the 91/92 era I've seen and having one with only 1,700 miles that still has all of the original markings on the chassis and all original wiring/hoses and such.

I would definantly be a valuable resource for the 91/92 portion and I could outright wright the Firehawk section. I mean when it comes to the 92's I know a great deal like the black TBI valve covers being used at the end, them running out of leather covered shifters for a certain time, using the vette TPI runners, hell I can almost determine at what VIN #'s these parts were used going from my 92 VIN database and owner registery.

I say we find the people with the most knowlege and existing examples around and create one...

Alex, you took the words RIGHT out of my mouth.

With several LOW LOW mileage cars out there still, with all original markings, I think it would be the time to do it.

Alright then sounds good.

Anyone reading this; if you feel you are an expert in any particular aspect for 82-92 Firebird's or Camaro's and would like to contribute to this cause, please post here stating what exactly your expertise is.

In addition of course, if you own a super low milage vehicle of this type or have direct access to one and would like to contribute pictures and extreme details about that vehicle to this cause, please post here as well stating what year/make/model it is.

I would be more than happy to contribute server space and bandwidth for hosting these images and documents for the duration of this project that way we don't bog down this already busy server with 1,000's of pictures of every concievable factory part on these cars. Also not to take anything away from Thirdgen.org but I would also be more than cool with setting up a special forum on my site as well for the Firebird portion of this project that way we don't end up with countless posts in this forum that will get mixed and lost among other non-related topics...

I know where there is an 82 S/E with only 2,000 mi on it in mint shape. Bummer is it has an iron duke/5-speed... :eek:

Thats a problem? It should have all the markings, same interior, a lot of the same drivetrain parts.

I have access to an all original one owner 84 Recaro in addition
to my 85...I would be willing to document both, the 84 is one of the few left with the original stripes still on.

Don

I can be of help on the 89 TTA's I have 2 of them. One with 5100 miles and the other with 4600 miles.

- Dave

Index
 

I was bored before class and decided to type up an index. Please feel free to rip it apart or mutilate it, but just trying to get a little start :)

Section 1: Exterior/Paint
1.1 – Paint Colors
1.2 – Acceptable Overspray
1.3 – Emblem Placement
1.4 – Body Moldings
1.5 – Misc

Section 2: Body
2.1 – VIN placement
2.2 – Sticker Placements
2.3 – Factory markings
2.4 – Underbody
2.5 – Lighting
2.6 – Suspension/Steering/Brakes
2.6.1 – Suspension Components
2.6.2 – Steering Components
2.6.3 – Braking Components
2.7 - Convertibles

Section 3: Interior
3.1 – Interior Colors
3.2 – Proper Styles
3.3 – Proper Interior Panels
3.4 – Dash
3.4.1 – Guages
3.4.2 – Buttons
3.4.3 – Dash emblems
3.4.4 – Misc
3.5 – Misc Interior
3.6 – Stereo Equipment
3.7 - Convertibles

Section 4: Engine/Drivetrain/Exhaust
4.1 – Proper Engine
4.1.1 – Hoses
4.1.2 – Engine Markings
4.2 – Proper Transmission
4.3 – Proper Exhaust Style and Size

This is all in a word document I started.

I just created a special board for it on my forum for the Firebird portion which it so far turns out those seem to be the only owners interested :D

http://www.TransAmGTA.com/MessageBoa...splay.php?f=73

I can be of some help too regarding the IMSA Firestone Firehawk series and 1LE development. I raced in the series from '86-'91 and also still have my original race car ( a "test mule" of sorts). We were involved with some 1LE development work with Bill Mitchell (Special Vehicle Developments in Ceshire CT) Also Bill is a good long-time family friend - he built many cars for my dad and I since '76 when he built the Mark Donahue Concept camaro for my dad.

Also I bet MarkZZ3 would love to add all he knows (which is a lot!!) regarding the Players Challenge series and devlopment in Canada...

Have TONS of Thirdgen racings pics etc.

What are we waiting for somebody get this man a host for those pics!

If he wants I can host them, no problem.

Yeah I mentioned in my second post I'd host. It's up to him now...

Re: Index
 

You can get almost all of the information from GM, in their parts & illustration catalogs. Granted, I have seen things here that really make me scratch my head. For example: Did you know that there is no "proper place" for the GTA's front nose Emblem??? Its not like its to be 3 inches from the hood on the center ridge of the front facia. I have a promotional dealer book that has GTA's and the location vary's by a couple of inces from pic to pic.

John

Ok guys...I'm getting them scanned as I write this.

My brother and I are working on getting a bunch of boat history pics scanned too as they want to put my dad (Charlie McCarthy) in the APBA Driver's Hall of Fame - (he was a famous offshore powerboat racer from the '70's)...so I've been digging out the old car racing pics too. He and I raced in IMSA together.

Here's a couple of 1LE's in '89....too bad we sold 'em...kicking myself now.

I know this isn't really the place for this but here's one of his race boats too...

Re: Re: Index
 

Actually I have the exact dimentions, atleast for the 91/92's I know them to be exact. It's printed in like a 500 page hardbound factory manual I bought a copy of from a library sale...

OK this is some basic stuff and by no means do I claim my car as concourse...

Typical Exhaust geometry.....As you see here no extended pipes....the Engineers made a perfect outlet by defining the exhaust gas exit... You cant see this normally because there is no reason too, anythig else is ******ville

http://home.comcast.net/~donbettencourt/DSC00403.JPG


G80 Rear with 3:27 gears. Metal tag on left defines BW serial number with ratio. Tag in middle, RPO. Tag on right tells mechanic to use special lube only.

http://home.comcast.net/~donbettencourt/DSC00399.JPG




Axle tube tag...these numbers define the right side axle tube...same for the left.


http://home.comcast.net/~donbettencourt/DSC00401.JPG


Spring...this tag defines the type of spring used, in this case NNB


http://home.comcast.net/~donbettencourt/DSC00402.JPG


More later

Don

Keep in mind that these cars were built in Norwood and Van Nuys. And they would have some differences.

For example: I have read here that in front of the windshield, under the hood, where the vent inlet is for the fresh air. SOME of the Van Nuys cars got painted body color. the Norwood cars were all black... Its a rumor, but it should be looked into.

John

any experts on berlinettas?

i need some info before i start swapping parts

If someone would only make one for the 82-84 T/A's.

Hi Alex!
I can help you abit!
The rear deck lid with a bunch of mounting holes running down the back of it, it's from a Camaro!!:D
Not a Trans Am!
Get the correct one!!!!!

Anyway, just giving you a hard time!
When back to my favorite place to eat! Jackie is soooooooo nice!!:D
Like your new car!

Having fun,

George:cool:

As much as I would have found this thread extremely interesting a few years ago, and in spite of how much information I feel I could offer, I just really don't care anymore. I'd like to see the finished product though. It'll just be one more source of information for people to trivialize over.

Sounds like something that would take someone a ton of time to pull together and put on paper, just for a minimal reward. I'm not really interested in contributing facts, but I'd be interested in checking the nearly finished product for accuracy.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Bringing this post back from the dead! 4+ yrs old!

Any news on this? I am planning on taking a ton of pics of my 91 car this winter just for this same purpose. For reference in future restorations and such.

Let's see if we can get this going.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

i too would like to see this happen. i also have a 88 gta that has not been touched. it does have higher milage at 35000 but it has many markings still on the underside, tags, ect. have original hoses plug wires ect. If there is anything that i can contribute to let me know.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

To actually follow up on a previous post, I have recently found that the 1989 & UP cars cowl in front of the windshield is painted body color... The 1982 - 1988 cars were painted black... The change I believe is to cut down on manufacturing costs... One less job, one less machine, less paint, also lightens the car slightly for better (albeit negigable) fuel economy...

I am slowly learning that the real problem with a book of this magnitude is ovewhelming. We have 11 years and each year is slightly different, although many things transfer from one year to the next there are so many details that I think it might be almost impossible. Considering that most authors can't even get the most basic information correct I cannot imagine what would be wrong with a book of this scope. There are also little things that NO ONE seems to know... For example, this past weekend Scott Moyer (Great to finally meet him) and myself discovered that the 1982 & 1983 rear quarter panels are in fact different than the 1984 & up rear quarter panels... Although they look almost the same AND the Parts & Illustration catalog says they have the same part number they are indeed different... The 82 & 83 Quarter Panel has a sharper crease above the Wheel house flair than the 84 & up... Its VERY minor, but evidently different...

John

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

I have a GM Service manual for 82 Camaro (I got it when I worked at a chevy dealer, they were throwing away the paper manuals) It has a few torn pages.. but if any information is needed from it.. I'd be glad to scan and email or post...

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Along the lines of the original post. Creating a concourse thirdgen Firebird book is a goal of mine.

I have been taking pictures of low mileage, correct cars, and collecting documentation for quite a while now with that goal in mind. I am hoping to create a draft as part of my senior thesis in History.

Right now I am still gathering information. Next up would be the research phase.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

My expertise is not the greatest, but since I have a 7K original mile 1992 Camaro 1LE, I would be happy to contribute any pics of specific areas of the car that are requested, or answer any questions that come up. At the time I am posting this, the car is all original except for the muffler.

http://www.fototime.com/43EC2D4F25EB27B/standard.jpg

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

As opposed to a book, could we just put up a website, with a year by year breakdown, and have a ton of pictures of the most origianl cars we can find. I am no website expert at all, but I was planning on getting a domain name this winter as an off-season project and just taking a ton of very detailed pics of my 2600 mile '91 GTA. Things like part number tags, chassis markings, wire routing, wire securing points, color and texture of certain componenets and so on.
Anyone able to put a website together like this? We can gather a group of people from here and TAGTA.com and take photo submissions from people and use them as needed on the website. Of course we would start with pictures of the cars we have or know of.
Also we can have a section where people who have facts about how somehing was can post their stories about it, like John's find of the rear quarters being different in a post a few above this one.
We can also finally get the pics of Leonard's car in there, and also include his story that he wrote about it.
I don't think we need a book per say, or a pulisher. We just need to take what we do here on the History board a step further. I am willing to volunteer my time and my cars for this, who else would be for this?
And who can actually put up a website and do all that stuff?

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

just courious about the cowl color. you said 89 and up were body color but i have an early 88 gta that had origanal paint and the cowl was body color.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

I also took pictures of literally every inch of my '91 Firehawk including a TON of undercar images of any and all markings I could find when I had it off the ground the day it was delivered with 1,289 miles on it :D

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

I am no expert on this, but i had an idea that may be useful.

If you want to be somewhat systematic about this information (which is ALOT), maybe it would be a good idea to start with RPO's and fit the peices of the puzzle together by each RPO.

For example, in 1982, there was a Z/28, Berlinetta, Firebird, Trans am, etc... with RPO..... RPO.... had such and such and option which was marked.... or.....etc...

You will also find that there will be discrepencies, because there was a human element to the assembly of these cars, and not each one of the same model stream is EXACTLY identical.

Paint overspray is a good example of that.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Another check is to look at the attachment point of the Dash top against the windshield, when you remove the pad it would be either Black or Body color... The black area was acually painted prior to the Windshield installation and I suspect that most people would not paint that area if they were doing a repaint.

As far as 1989 vs 1988... I might be wrong it might have been 1988 that they changed this... But I would have swore that I saw some 1988's with a Black cowel area... I personally think it looks better Black than body color... Around the same time that they changed this they also changed the Bolts that attach the headlights to the car... I know that in 1987 & prior they were painted silver, and 1989 & up they were painted Black... not sure about 1988 again. Just some little things.

John

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Here are the pix of the rear quarters

The Blue car I want to think was a 1988, the Gray looking car was actually a 1982 Pace car... If you look closely the gray car has a sharper crease, its sight but evident when parking them side by side... We checked both sides and they are the same RH to LH...

John

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

I have copies of nearly all the material that Leonard had collected and offered to share; including his story that I transcribed. There are some that I don't have, but Leonard and I plan to work on that in the near future as his schedule allows. As far as getting it published, it's just a matter of organizing the material and then posting it. I'd also like to get some high quality photos of Leonard's car. I don't believe he has anything recent using today's technology (cameras). Most of the material I seen was from photographs from 1992.

As far as a website to host the "concourse" information, personally, I'd perfer it to be hosted on ThirdGen.org. But I'm biased. And we have the resources. It's just a matter of how to construct it. I'd be willing to explore any and all options as well as help.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

ive noticed the same thing with the color of the bolts for the head lights. a good friend of mine has an 87 t/a that he bought new and only has 20000 on it right now and he has silver bolts there while mine has the bolts painted black. His car also has the cowl painted black on his car.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Ok, sounds like a good idea. Let me know how you think we should handle this.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Would we be well off to create a new website... or should it just be hosted here?

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

I would think we should create a separate website that way we can do whatever we need on it and maintain it ourselves and not rely on anyone...

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

You still need to rely on someone. Someone to manage the domain name and records? Someone that manages where the website is hosted? Someone that likely has full permissions to the server and who can add/remove accounts that could alter information? Do you really want everyone and anyone to have access to add/remove information? Do you want "drive-by" Internet users to be able to alter content?

I was considering the idea of having a "wiki" like website, where proven accounts (perhaps chosen by other proven accounts) can have such full-access to make content changes.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

I myself would not be interested in a wiki type site. Wikipedia gets info from everyone that "thinks" they know the answers and can continue to spread info about 50 1986 L98 cars, etc or 1992 Z28 with a 350 and factory ttops. I also think that since TGO is "THE" 3rd gen resource website, that any special documentation will be regarded as more accurate if it comes from here.

JT, is there a way to get a different style format than a message forum format fo rthis data and still have it connected to TGO?

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Scott, I should clarify. I was not really suggesting to actually use Wiki to actually host the information. I would agree that would not be wise for reasons you mentioned. None of us would have any control and would be open to the issues that you mentioned.

Instead, I was suggesting to use their software on one of our servers. I thought that might be an option so that we could allow multiple accounts access to the information (to write), but could also keep logs and records of what changed. I would think that there is some version or plugin that would restrict changes to "authorized" accounts. We could setup several accounts for members who have proven to be knowledgeable, who could have access to write information whenever they wanted.

I could also look into seeing if there is a plugin that may work with the vBulletin software. That might be another option. I would be concerned that unless it's directly accessed on the forums, it may not get the usage.

I also agree that since TGO is considered "THE" Third Generation website, it should be hosted here. But again, I'm a bit biased.

I'm open to suggestions and input. As I said, I will see what I can do and will help however I can. I cannot make guarantees, but right now, we need some ideas to see if we can run with them.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

JT, I must say that I am not as much of a computer expert as the rest seem to be. Not too familiar with different names for formats and such. What I was envisioning and planning to do this winter was something along the lines of a website that is shaped similar to lets say Frankie's site, GTASourcepage. Whereas from the main page you would choose Firebid or Camaro and then there would be a year selection screen, followed by year specific pictures of concourse-worthy cars. Of course the pictures that are general to more than one year can be placed accordingly. Then a section for stories, and FACT backed information. Now I don't know yet what it would entale if I put my own site together like I was planning on but if we could somehow do it through TGO then that would be great.

However to agree with Scott, of course it couldn't be a message board format at all. I would imagine like you said a group of trusted reputable 3rd Gen people that have access to make changes and additions, basically moderators.

Like I mentioned earlier, I am able to contribute pics of my cars and my time as part of a group to manage and maintain the site.

Now we just need someone with the computer knowledge greater than mine to figure out how this can be set up in the best way.

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

My 88 Firebird has a satin black cowl. I'll check, but I'm pretty sure my 88 IROC does too.

Lon

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Honestly things ilke this may be explained that the day the car the guy above has they simply ran out of Black PAint... They would NOT stop the line for it, I know for a fact that many times if the line ran out of a bolt that someone would literally run out to the hardware store and buy a supply of similar bolts to hold them over until they got their shipment.. Living in a GM town has its advantages...

John

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Any plans yet?

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Here is something for JUST this purpose

Its a wiki-based site specifically for 3rd gen Camaros and Firebirds...

Apparently it has yet to get off the ground.

http://www.fbodyreport.com/wiki/Main_Page

John

Re: "Concourse" book for Thirdgens?
 

Typical.. they left out a whole Firebird model, since they didn't happen to care about it! Clearly they're just playing around with their spare time and are not serious. (aw hell, who cares about the S/E!? those things were for grannies!)

I think the across-the-board inconsistency with our cars' manufacturing process will become a major problem area for the Concourse book and its credibility, if the book ever happens.

Already on this thread for example, we can't come to a decision that makes everyone happy, regarding whether the cowl was supposed to be bodycolored or black. When was the cutoff point for the color change? Was there any overlap in procedure during the change? Did both assembly plants do the same thing at the same time? What about this guy's car over here that seems to be a total rule breaker, but he swears it's original? Etc., etc.

It's sort of like a top-secret CIA project where nobody knows the whole story; almost every one of us knows a little piece of the f-body puzzle with 100% certainty, but I'll say that it will be absolutely impossible for a few people to get together and know the ENTIRE story and come up with an accurate book for it. If such a book is ever published, it will be laced with dozens if not hundreds of errors, primarily about the overlooked pre-TPI cars. Count on that..

I hope I'm wrong. I hope my factory-original water pump on my 3,500-mile T/A, with its extraordinarily sloppy Pontiac-blue engine paint, will be deemed to be original.. 'coz it is.

Good luck, I'll be looking at this thread