Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros But they are very common on the Camaro side from 1987-1989. The majority of the 350s you see for sale in those years all have ttops. They are not rare by any sense. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by scottmoyer
(Post 5819327)
But they are very common on the Camaro side from 1987-1989. The majority of the 350s you see for sale in those years all have ttops. They are not rare by any sense. John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 5819309)
Actually it had nothing to do with body flex... not sure where this misinformation comes from. It has to do with weight... The cars have to meet CAFE requirements for fuel economy, this is crunched by a calculation based upon the base fuel efficiency of an engine, deduct for the trans, and start deducting from there for options... In 1987 a 350 GTA or 350 Trans Am was NA with T-tops, the sub woofer, and the rear shade... I am sure the sub woofer and rear shade had something to do with body flex, but I am not sure how. In 1991 & 1992 only the Formula was available with T-tops and 350, but it was mandatory to get the lightweight wheels (cross laced, all of which were painted black.) Both 1991 & 1992 Model years produced about 200 each year with the combo. John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by scottmoyer
(Post 5819327)
But they are very common on the Camaro side from 1987-1989. The majority of the 350s you see for sale in those years all have ttops. They are not rare by any sense. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by TheExaminer
(Post 5819510)
Well, it just makes sense that the car is less rigid with ttops instead of a steel top. Especially if the tops are removed, how would it NOT have an issue with body flex? I know it was an issue with the C4 Corvettes when the glass top was removed. I get the weight issue, and understand it, but my thought--right or wrong--has always been that most guys who wanted a 350 wanted a more rigid body to allow it to hold together better under cornering and acceleration. That's a separate issue from whatever industry or government weight standards that may have also limited production. My bet is it was probably a mixture of several factors, but those of us who own them now are glad they are rare, no matter why. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by TheExaminer
(Post 5819513)
So then are we saying that industry/government standards changed after 1989 in such a way as to limit interest or availability? But then, if guys bought them 87-89, why not 91-92 when they were technically still available? (Besides the looming 4th gen issue) |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by AmorgetRS
(Post 5819526)
The weight reasons for the t-tops isn't a guess and is the only reason why t-tops weren't available. The information came from a higher up at Pontiac back during the development of the GTA. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros They only made ~1000 Formulas in 92, so the fact that ~200 of them had a 350/PW7/T-Top combo is actually pretty good in percentages. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by AmorgetRS
(Post 5819563)
They only made ~1000 Formulas in 92, so the fact that ~200 of them had a 350/PW7/T-Top combo is actually pretty good in percentages. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros The 4th gen played no part in the car not having TTops with the 350. You're not understanding what's being said here. They weren't on the 1990-1992 cars because of the dash redesign and the airbag inclusion and other issues that added weight to the car. The additional weight put the car over CAFE standards and would have required a gas guzzler tax. The reason the Formula was able to get them was because they were a lighter car to begin with. If the only way to get them was with a lighter weight wheel, then that tells you right there that the entire reason had to do with weight. It had nothing to do with the 4th gen, it had nothing to do with waning interest, and it had nothing to do with body twist. Most cars are purchased off the dealer lot and if the dealer didn't order the 350 with the lighter wheels to get the 350, then the consumer didn't get the ttops! Oh, and your comment that most people that wanted the 350 also wanted a more rigid body is incorrect. The TTops are something that people went to Chevrolet with as a requirement for the 5th gen. People want the tops. If someone wanted to spend the money for the engine, they also wanted to go all out and get the tops because both were "cool". Very few "wanted" the hardtop with the 350. People wanted the hard top because they didn't want to deal with leaks or rattles that were known to plague these cars. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by scottmoyer
(Post 5819577)
The 4th gen played no part in the car not having TTops with the 350. You're not understanding what's being said here. They weren't on the 1990-1992 cars because of the dash redesign and the airbag inclusion and other issues that added weight to the car. The additional weight put the car over CAFE standards and would have required a gas guzzler tax. The reason the Formula was able to get them was because they were a lighter car to begin with. If the only way to get them was with a lighter weight wheel, then that tells you right there that the entire reason had to do with weight. It had nothing to do with the 4th gen, it had nothing to do with waning interest, and it had nothing to do with body twist. Most cars are purchased off the dealer lot and if the dealer didn't order the 350 with the lighter wheels to get the 350, then the consumer didn't get the ttops! Oh, and your comment that most people that wanted the 350 also wanted a more rigid body is incorrect. The TTops are something that people went to Chevrolet with as a requirement for the 5th gen. People want the tops. If someone wanted to spend the money for the engine, they also wanted to go all out and get the tops because both were "cool". Very few "wanted" the hardtop with the 350. People wanted the hard top because they didn't want to deal with leaks or rattles that were known to plague these cars. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by TheExaminer
(Post 5819510)
Well, it just makes sense that the car is less rigid with ttops instead of a steel top. Especially if the tops are removed, how would it NOT have an issue with body flex? I know it was an issue with the C4 Corvettes when the glass top was removed. I get the weight issue, and understand it, but my thought--right or wrong--has always been that most guys who wanted a 350 wanted a more rigid body to allow it to hold together better under cornering and acceleration. That's a separate issue from whatever industry or government weight standards that may have also limited production. My bet is it was probably a mixture of several factors, but those of us who own them now are glad they are rare, no matter why. 1) The reason why GM did not offer some models with T-tops & 350 IE the Firebird from 1987-1988 and almost all cars (less the Formula) from 1990-1992, had nothing to do with body flex. 2) I am not disputing the fact that a convertible or T-top car would not flex and twist more, 3) If you follow the trail, and the fact that there are even 350 convertibles out there that do not suffer ill effects from the twisting of a stock engine. This suggests to me that that the fact was the T-top and convertible cars with a 350 would not meet CAFE standards, not some concern on GM's behalf to consider not installing T-tops. 4) Also consider that with the exception of 1990, every year the 350 was offered, there are examples of cars with the 350 and T-tops, so GM could care less about flex. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 5819766)
I think you missed my point... 1) The reason why GM did not offer some models with T-tops & 350 IE the Firebird from 1987-1988 and almost all cars (less the Formula) from 1990-1992, had nothing to do with body flex. 2) I am not disputing the fact that a convertible or T-top car would not flex and twist more, 3) If you follow the trail, and the fact that there are even 350 convertibles out there that do not suffer ill effects from the twisting of a stock engine. This suggests to me that that the fact was the T-top and convertible cars with a 350 would not meet CAFE standards, not some concern on GM's behalf to consider not installing T-tops. 4) Also consider that with the exception of 1990, every year the 350 was offered, there are examples of cars with the 350 and T-tops, so GM could care less about flex. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros I think some confusion comes from your statement that so few t-tops/350 cars were made in 1992 (as a percentage) as compared to other years. I just don't think that is really true. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by AmorgetRS
(Post 5819905)
I think some confusion comes from your statement that so few t-tops/350 cars were made in 1992 (as a percentage) as compared to other years. I just don't think that is really true. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros That really isn't the same question though. If you asked why in 1992 the production numbers were so low, it's very simple. People were waiting for the 4th gen. This has nothing to do with t-tops. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by AmorgetRS
(Post 5819923)
That really isn't the same question though. If you asked why in 1992 the production numbers were so low, it's very simple. People were waiting for the 4th gen. This has nothing to do with t-tops. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros In all honesty, 1990 marked pretty much the beginning of the end of the F-body. According to one source the 4th gen never took off like the 3rd Gen... In 1993 apparently there was less than 15,000 Firebirds made... when there was some 25,000 ish 1992 Firebirds made. 93 - 15,000 94 - 38,503 95 - 51059 96 - 30982 97 - 30,756 98 - 36209 99 - 31,826 When you look at 3rd gen production over the life of the series, 82 - 116364 83 - 74,884 84 - 128,304 85 - 95,880 86 - 110,463 87 - 88,623 88 - 62,467 89 - 64,406 90 - 20,553 (partial year) 91 - 51,860 (extended year) 92 - 25,180 Keep in mind that 90 & 91 were odd years, no 1990's were made in 1990, they stopped production Dec 31, 1989, and 1991 started in Jan or Feb of 1990... If you take the the production from the normal time of year for the 1990-1991 normal crossover like it would have been every other year, the production figures would have looked a little more like this: 90 - 40,093 91 - 30,320 92 - 25,180 So if you look at the numbers and realize that the life cycle of the third gen was circling the drain, the 4th gen really was produced closer the average of the number of cars made in 90 & 91, never to reach the production of even 1989... |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 5819998)
In all honesty, 1990 marked pretty much the beginning of the end of the F-body. According to one source the 4th gen never took off like the 3rd Gen... In 1993 apparently there was less than 15,000 Firebirds made... when there was some 25,000 ish 1992 Firebirds made. 93 - 15,000 94 - 38,503 95 - 51059 96 - 30982 97 - 30,756 98 - 36209 99 - 31,826 When you look at 3rd gen production over the life of the series, 82 - 116364 83 - 74,884 84 - 128,304 85 - 95,880 86 - 110,463 87 - 88,623 88 - 62,467 89 - 64,406 90 - 20,553 (partial year) 91 - 51,860 (extended year) 92 - 25,180 Keep in mind that 90 & 91 were odd years, no 1990's were made in 1990, they stopped production Dec 31, 1989, and 1991 started in Jan or Feb of 1990... If you take the the production from the normal time of year for the 1990-1991 normal crossover like it would have been every other year, the production figures would have looked a little more like this: 90 - 40,093 91 - 30,320 92 - 25,180 So if you look at the numbers and realize that the life cycle of the third gen was circling the drain, the 4th gen really was produced closer the average of the number of cars made in 90 & 91, never to reach the production of even 1989... I think this can all be explained with a single statement.... not many like 'dem pointy noses:) that is the same for 91 on... Me..? I like the wedge shape of the front end from 82-90 |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros Even at the Trans Am nationals, if you break it down, it seemed that there was very few 93-97 Birds there this year... There were plenty, but not as many as the 98-02s... |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros I remember when the 93's came out. I had no desire to buy one whatsoever. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by 90 GTA Black
(Post 5820812)
I remember when the 93's came out. I had no desire to buy one whatsoever. out of the entire Generation, I think the 98-02 Firebirds, specifically the Firehawk and WS6 cars looked the best... |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 5821021)
The 93 Camaro looked like an overgrown GEO Storm, and the Firebird had such a long beak it looked out of proportion... loved the 85-89 best. Didnt care for the airbags of 99+ |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by TheExaminer
(Post 5819951)
We got off course when someone (I don't even remember who) brought the whole 87-89 issue in, and I think it was someone who just simply wanted to be a know it all and/or argue. . On this forum, you will be corrected if you are wrong. There is too much misinformation out there (like you saying no 350/ttops was because of body flex) and we are trying to be as accurate as possible. You're welcome! |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros 1) as a moderator I have no time to use tact, now that i think about it, my best friend tells me I have no tact anyways... not sure how I feel about that... 2) what Scott said |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros 2 more things that hurt 4th gen sales: SUVs Insurance rates |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros I have a 1992 camaro z28 that is a 5.7 from factory and has t tops. The t tops are called Cars & Concepts. These are not original from Chevy but was an option that dealers would install. I learned this when I was looking for the weather stripping. The T tops are actually about 2" shorter than the original Chevy Fisher t tops. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by Jason E
(Post 5744284)
No, that's a myth that was perpetuated way too much at the dawn of this site... It all came down to weight and fuel economy. Fuel economy regs were a little different years ago. Firebirds weighed more than Camaros...T-tops weigh more than hardtops. This is why the lower MPG 350s were allowed in the lighter Camaros, but not in the heavier Firebirds. Something changed in '89...likely the lightweight Lexmar plastic T-tops..that lightened Firebirds enough to allow T-tops with 350s for primarily that one year (there were a certain number of lighter 92 Formula 350s that were built with T-tops, but that seems to be the only exception for Firebirds)
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 5748247)
Cars available with T-tops AND 350 (possibly a few 1988, never confirmed) 87 - GTA or Trans Am in CANADA ONLY 87-89 IROC 89 - GTA, Trans Am, Formula 91-92 Formula 350 ONLY As for the Formulas in 91 & 92 there was about 200 each year... John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by elijflo
(Post 6111155)
I have a 1992 camaro z28 that is a 5.7 from factory and has t tops. The t tops are called Cars & Concepts. These are not original from Chevy but was an option that dealers would install. I learned this when I was looking for the weather stripping. The T tops are actually about 2" shorter than the original Chevy Fisher t tops. But as a point of clarification, Cars & Concepts were NOT an option. If a dealer installed, it's not an "option", it's an accessory, or aftermarket. And the C&C t tops were fairly popular. :2cents: |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by elijflo
(Post 6111155)
I have a 1992 camaro z28 that is a 5.7 from factory and has t tops. The t tops are called Cars & Concepts. These are not original from Chevy but was an option that dealers would install. I learned this when I was looking for the weather stripping. The T tops are actually about 2" shorter than the original Chevy Fisher t tops. C&C tops were a dealer option as Big&BadGTA mentioned, they were dealer installed on many cars that were not available with T-tops through the years. I have read where some people say they are better than the factory tops, but I have no personal experience with them. From 1990-1992 the only way to get a T-top F-body with the 350 was to either get the C&C tops or order a Formula 350 with T-tops in 91-92. The restriction was based on the Weight of the car. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros I was told if 5.7 and has g92 no t tops were offered only CNc t tops available |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 6111951)
Welcome!, C&C tops were a dealer option as Big&BadGTA mentioned, they were dealer installed on many cars that were not available with T-tops through the years. I have read where some people say they are better than the factory tops, but I have no personal experience with them. From 1990-1992 the only way to get a T-top F-body with the 350 was to either get the C&C tops or order a Formula 350 with T-tops in 91-92. The restriction was based on the Weight of the car. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by yellowferrari
(Post 6136174)
I was told if 5.7 and has g92 no t tops were offered only CNc t tops available So yeah, they really arent related or mutually exclusive. It's not really a valid rule. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros 87 - Camaro - L98, G92 (3.27 axle) , CC1 - Lots of them out there 87 - GTA - L98, (3.27 axle) CC1 - Many out there, ALL went to Canada 89 - Firebird/Camaro - L98 (3.27 axle), CC1 - Lots and LOTS of them out there 91 - 92 - FORMULA 350 - L98, (3.27 axle), CC1 - IIRC around 200 or so for each year. They are available, do not believe the lies... G92 on the Camaro was different than the Firebird. Around 1987 G92 was dropped by the Firebird, it was tied up with the Formula and the GTA. In 1988-1992 the 1LE mandated G92, so the Trans Am could have the G92, as did the 91/92 Formula with the G92. Interestingly there are a few Formulas & Trans Ams out there with the CC1, 1LE, G92 and CC1... However you could not get AC & T-tops with the 1LE. Understand? John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros So if came with g92 3.42 gears than cc1 was avaible I was told no cc1 thanks for all the info |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros G92 only means "performance gear ratio". GU6 would be 3.42 ratio. The only time you'll see G92 on a spid is if there was an optional gear ratio. For example, in 1987 EVERY L98 Camaro came with 3.27 gears standard. Since 3.27 is the only ratio offered, there isn't a need to differentiate with "G92". 3.27 would be considered a performance ratio in most cases, and yet there are many 87 L98s with ttops. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros That was in the later years of 88-92 if I recall. I think the rule was that if you had a 305 with G92 in 1988-1992, you could not get ttops. If you get the 350 with G92, you could not get ttops. So, this is only from 1988-1992. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by okfoz
(Post 6137003)
87 - Camaro - L98, G92 (3.27 axle) , CC1 - Lots of them out there 87 - GTA - L98, (3.27 axle) CC1 - Many out there, ALL went to Canada 89 - Firebird/Camaro - L98 (3.27 axle), CC1 - Lots and LOTS of them out there 91 - 92 - FORMULA 350 - L98, (3.27 axle), CC1 - IIRC around 200 or so for each year. They are available, do not believe the lies... G92 on the Camaro was different than the Firebird. Around 1987 G92 was dropped by the Firebird, it was tied up with the Formula and the GTA. In 1988-1992 the 1LE mandated G92, so the Trans Am could have the G92, as did the 91/92 Formula with the G92. Interestingly there are a few Formulas & Trans Ams out there with the CC1, 1LE, G92 and CC1... However you could not get AC & T-tops with the 1LE. Understand? John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros A lot diff answers I was told 88 iroc 5.7 with g92 came with 3.42 gears |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros Pretty sure you're not going to find any L98 cars with 3.42 gears. 3.27 or 3.23 sure, 2.73 or 2.77 sure, 3.42 or 3.45s - no. It really doesn't matter. People always think combinations exist that were never offered, and they're always going to look for things that don't exist. You decode each individual car to find out what it is. If you're looking for G92 on a L98 car you're wasting your time. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros My 88 is a 5.7 and g92 with aluminum driveshaft and cars n concepts t top and I took the auto trans out and made it a manual looks just like the factory did it and got the car fully restored. Love the car |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros 1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by yellowferrari
(Post 6137045)
I was told 88 iroc 5.7 with g92 came with 3.42 gears Attachment 314985 |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros My 1988 IROC has the G92 option, L98 350 V8 with a 9 bolt rear and has 3.45 gears from what I can tell. Also has C & C T-Tops. Never seen a third gen with a 350 and factory T Tops, only C & C T Tops. |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by Drew
(Post 6137055)
You were told wrong. 88 was during the 9-bolt years, so it wouldn't have 3.42s anyway it'd be 3.45s. But the G92 gear in 88 with the L98 is 3.27. https://i140.photobucket.com/albums/...20Files/88.jpg |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros I have an all original 23,000 mile 1989 Iroc 5.7 factory T-top with g92. I know all original as I am the only owner, has to wait 2 weeks to receive from dealer, look at my garage for pics. Only thing I added was cragar louver, seat covers on 2nd day I owned it, and gently installed aftermarket radio. I have all original parts/ |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros Lots of mixed answers next time I do a diff service will verify gear ratios . |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by PurelyPMD
(Post 6137032)
Important point to note John is that NONE of the 1LE/CC1 cars were L98's - they were all LB9/MK6's. John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros 1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by peterc005
(Post 6137079)
My 1988 IROC has the G92 option, L98 350 V8 with a 9 bolt rear and has 3.45 gears from what I can tell. Also has C & C T-Tops. Never seen a third gen with a 350 and factory T Tops, only C & C T Tops. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...1&d=1495056328 |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros
Originally Posted by lltrevino
(Post 6137148)
I have an all original 23,000 mile 1989 Iroc 5.7 factory T-top with g92. I know all original as I am the only owner, has to wait 2 weeks to receive from dealer, look at my garage for pics. Only thing I added was cragar louver, seat covers on 2nd day I owned it, and gently installed aftermarket radio. I have all original parts/ lltrevino, Does your car's RPO codes show both CC1 and G92? I'm curious because I had done a fair amount of research on this prior to buying my 1987, and it seemed that the consensus was G92 was only available with T-tops (likewise convertibles) up through 1988. Even the 1989 dealer order guide says "CC1 (N/A G92 Axle)". If you have a 1989 with both of those codes, it might be a rare car! By the way, I looked at your photo album -- IROC looks beautiful! -- John |
Re: No 5.7 T-Top Camaros I didn't notice til about half way thru this thread started 3 years ago, lol! Just curious, are we 100% sure only 88 GTA's had the 350 and t-top? I bought one out of a neighbor's yard a few years back and i seen to recall it had t-top. That's why I bought it at the time... |
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