hartsmike

Bored and going through old posts like this one https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...-z03-zs-t.html and I think it said no factory 350 T Top Camaros. Is this correct? I knew there were no factory 5.7 5 speeds.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

You could get ttops 5.7s in certain years.

hartsmike

Any idea which years?

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

My '88 IROC is......5.7 Auto T-Top

JT

iTrader: (1)

Scott said what he did because the topic originally was discussing a 1992 Z03 Camaro, which you could not get the T-Top and 350 in that year.

I believe this list by John is a guide to this answer:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...06-post13.html

Jason E

Camaros work like this...

87-89 could have both
90-92 no 350 T-tops were produced

Its that easy

hartsmike

Were the last years torque in the 5.7's to much for the T-TOP's?

Jason E

No, that's a myth that was perpetuated way too much at the dawn of this site...

It all came down to weight and fuel economy. Fuel economy regs were a little different years ago. Firebirds weighed more than Camaros...T-tops weigh more than hardtops. This is why the lower MPG 350s were allowed in the lighter Camaros, but not in the heavier Firebirds.

Something changed in '89...likely the lightweight Lexmar plastic T-tops..that lightened Firebirds enough to allow T-tops with 350s for primarily that one year (there were a certain number of lighter 92 Formula 350s that were built with T-tops, but that seems to be the only exception for Firebirds)

okfoz

Cars available with T-tops AND 350 (possibly a few 1988, never confirmed)
87 - GTA or Trans Am in CANADA ONLY
87-89 IROC
89 - GTA, Trans Am, Formula
91-92 Formula 350 ONLY

As for the Formulas in 91 & 92 there was about 200 each year...

John

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

So heres my '88 VIN and what does it tell us?
1G1FP2185JL123***
It's a t-top car with most options i can remember for that year. and i have the build sheet in front of me.

scottmoyer

Your VIN tells us that it's an '88 coupe with the 350 and it was built in Van Nuys and is in the 23k range of cars built in '88. That's it. There were many companies doing aftermarket TTops when GM stopped, so if you have them, they may be aftermarket. If your SPID shows CC1, it probably also shows Z49.

Linson

wait...are you saying that there were no Formula 350s made in '91?

91interceptorZ

iTrader: (3)

on this site there is a actually an RPO build list....that has every thirdgen ever built, the options included (1le, b4c, firehawk, etc), and how many were sold for every year.....kinda interesting. I know mine is one of 526 made. I'll find the link and post it.

And the OP says 350 with a 5 speed and ttops.....touched on ttops, but no 350 was mated to a 5 speed ever. in early years you could get a carbed 350 with four speed manual....and then there is the few rare cars out there....like the firehawks...that used a ZF 6 speed manual.

okfoz

1) The Title is 5.7 T-top Camaros... The 5 Speed is being ignored
2) There are no factory 5.7L Camaros before 1987 that were sold to the public.

camaroyoungster

My dad has an '87 Irco 350 tpi all orginial

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

The paper sheet under i found under the seat has this:
model 1FP87 Delivery location CUSH
and the T-tops are oem GM factory but i don't see it listed on this sheet

JT

iTrader: (1)

What you have is a trim sheet and not the master build sheet. There are several trim sheets that have some RPO codes for various parts of the car during build. The master build sheet will have all RPO codes, definitions, a lot of other codes, and dealer information.

Linson

but i'm like pretty sure there were Formula 350s and GTAs with L98s in 91-92, not just Z28s. thats the point i was making.

i could be wrong i guess, but the statement that there were just about nil Firebirds with L98s for those years just doesn't sound right.

and how much heavier could a Firebird have been - especially a Formula?

91interceptorZ

iTrader: (3)

.

JT

iTrader: (1)

I think Jason mistyped to omit the T-Top aspect in one paragraph when discussing the 350 and T-Top topic.

Yes, there was many 1991-1992 GTAs and Formulas with the 350. Just no 350 and T-Top (from the factory) on the heavier GTAs for 1990-1992. The Formula had the 350 and T-Top (from the factory) option available in 1991-1992 due to the PW7 rim option and being a lighter model than the GTA.

This bulletin states no 350 and T-Top (from the factory) for 1990 on the GTA, Formula or Trans Am:
http://www.gtasourcepage.com/Pontiac...0cdbs/90F2.jpg

This bulletin then states the option for 350 and T-Top (from the factory) on the Formula when equipped with the PW7 rims for 1991:
http://www.gtasourcepage.com/Pontiac...cdbs/91F11.jpg

As you can see, there was some back and forth changes with the T-Top and 350 combo on the Firebird side. The Camaro side is even different.

IMissMy86TA

I have more knowledge concerning the GTAs.. I can tell you in the USA there were only 350s with T-tops in 89 on GTAs. any other years that had them were for canada. I do not know those numbers...

Linson

^ thanks. i think we got it cleared up. i'm pretty sure that when the other poster said no 350s in 91-92 Firebirds, he forgot to include the with T-Tops part.

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

Guess this guy doesn't know what year car he has or someone's got the wrong info listed on these year cars

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/cto/4446567754.html

hartsmike

I'm saying someone put a 350 in it.

jchaussee

Holy smokes thats cheap

scottmoyer

The listing says rebuilt. It's not cheap, it may be high for a rebuilt car that is a frankenstein. The hood is from an 82-84 Z28, the front end is from a 85-90 Z28 and the rest of the car is a '92. So with the front end all being mixed up, the engine was probably replaced also. I wouldn't pay $2900 for that car because you don't know how well it was repaired. Based on the mixed up parts, I'd say they put it together quickly and as cheaply as possible.

Slater126

iTrader: (1)

Correct. And as further clarification that was because Chevy decided not to offer T-Tops with the G92 package starting in 1990. Since the G92 package was mandatory on 350 cars during those years, no 350 1990-92 Camaro will have T-Tops. 1990-92 305 5-speed Camaros with G92 also will not have T-Tops.

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

The whole point of my post with the CL ad listing

Irockthedrag

Just buy a ttop car and install a 350 in it. I have an 83 z28 with a 350 sbc, ttops, and a 5 speed. You can generally find these cars for a very reasonable price, and from that point you can make it exactly how you want it.

Irocan88

iTrader: (2)

I just picked up a few days ago an '88 Iroc 5.7 with T tops and it has RPO code CC1. VIN is 1G1FP2189JL122*** I owned an '89 10 years ago, this '88 has speakers on kick panels and a double "map" light on the rear view and double light on the dome as well. I guess I'll have to start looking for that build sheet somewhere in there to decode it and figure out what's factory and what's not. This is my first post here by the way, have owned Camaros since I was 13 years old. Great site here.

IMissMy86TA

Whenever I read such posts I am happy. I think back to the early 80s when people with 70s camaros would do such things... they would throw away an original block and but something else in.. Make it the way they wanted it. Now, those who own those cars now are trying desperately to put the car back to stock and make $$$ and al the while cussing about the previous owners who hacked up the car originally. I owned a 57 chevy that had issues from previous owners that left scars on the car that I had to fix to get it stock and make it worth something. I know what I speak of. since I own a pristine example I think of how much more my car will be worth as people change stock 3rd gens. I dont do this for money but it will be nice one day..

okfoz

One thing that I notice is there are several classes of cars
1) Those that are bone stock or stock looking
2) Those that are hacked together, pieces missing, bigger or wrong engines that are glaringly obvious from poor craftsmanship.
3) Nicely done retrofits where no one would know if they were none-the-wiser. A clean retrofit or something of the like is not nearly as bad as dr shade-tree that just wanted power and had no other care.

I swapped over to TPI in my 87 Formula that had an LG4 and no one, not even an expert that was well versed in 3rd gens would be able to tell from hack job wires, or things out of place. I took my time,

The nice thing is I can go to a store tell them I have a TPI and everything is correct for my year and everything.

So it really depends on who and how it was done.



John

Linson

so obviously, THAT discussion has been had more times than is good and proper and minds arent being changed. so i am not going to comment on the supposed investment value in keeping a 3rd gen stock vs. the thrills in making one perform better. i just want to point out that one can deviate from stock, even to the extreme, without creating a "hacked up" jalopy.

MintWS6FORMULA

To a lot of people, an engine with 8 cylinders is automatically a 350. I saw a 3rd gen bird on Ebay not long ago, and the seller said it was a 350, but it looked EXACTLY like an L03.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

I had a 87 IROC with a 350 and T-Tops from the factory, so yes you can get them.

TheExaminer

Yip. I've got one of them. Mine is a 92 Formula with the 350/ttop/GTA wheel setup. I know the top is factory because I have the original window sticker with the option on it. It was a $914 option. It's one of only 200 92's with that package. What I'd REALLY like to know is how many of those 200 are still on the road and in as good/better shape than mine!

TheExaminer

One other thing I've noticed about vins is that most vin decoders will tell you "S" means base Firebird, and "W" is Formula/TA. Not always so. My Forumla is an "S". I've got the window sticker with all the Formula options, as well as the job sheet from inside the door that shows the "Formula Special Options" label. Some vin decoders show "S" as base OR a Formula, and "V" as TA, so you have to double and triple check these decoders.

okfoz

I believe the Formula problem comes from 4th gen decoders. IIRC the Formula from 1993 & up used the W, from 1987-1992 it is definitely S

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Ive never heard of a 3rd gen 350 mated to a 4spd. Never heard of a 350 in a third gen other than a TPI car or maybe a Firehawk or something

okfoz

The only way to have gotten the 350 4 speed was to purchase a 305 car and install the GM 350HO engine back in the day.

John

TheExaminer

Yes, please do! I'd love to run my car through that. I know I'm one of 200, but would like to see more about the others like it.

okfoz

compnine.com

Falconiroc

I can confirm that you were able to get a T-Top L98 car in 1988 for sure, as my white 88 IROC was a factory L98 car with Factory T-Tops (confirmed via RPO codes).

GCrites80s

I didn't even start thinking about this until I started autocrossing my '87 350 IROC w/t-tops. People kept coming up to me, "No way is this a 350, it has T-tops." and "Is that thing floppy with the T-top conversion?" I got my car in 1995 and it is clearly an original T-top car with a 350. I just assumed that 350 and T-tops was always available on both Camaro and Firebird from '87 until 2002. Especially since 3rd gens of all varieties were everywhere when I was young. I thought my car was extremely common but as time goes on I'm learning it's not.

TheExaminer

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I knew 350/ttop wasn't terribly common because of body flex, but had no idea how rare they were. When I saw the car I currently have, I bought it for $4,800 because I used to own a 91 350 Formy hardtop when I was in my 20's. I had previously owned an 85 Firebird base with the 305 carb, and it was a ttop. So when I got my 91 I missed my t's. I had always wanted the ttop 350 combo, but again, had no idea how rare they were. I found my current car, and only a few weeks after I bought it I discovered that it was one of only 200 made in 1992, and I have window sticker and build sheet to prove it! My neighbor was talking to me about it a few weeks ago, and asked me if it was a 305 when he saw the top. He stood there and looked at me for couple seconds when I dropped that it was actually a 350! I've had several people do that, and they always act shocked when I tell them the truth. Gotta love that! LOL

scottmoyer

Guys, it's very common knowledge that the ttops were available with the 350 from 87-89 in the Camaro. If everybody with combination chimed in, we'd have hundreds of pages in this thread alone.

TheExaminer

Yeah, but not so common in the 91-92 Firebird. I've never seen hard numbers on the Camaro from that time, but I'm sure they are fairly rare too.

okfoz

Actually it had nothing to do with body flex... not sure where this misinformation comes from. It has to do with weight... The cars have to meet CAFE requirements for fuel economy, this is crunched by a calculation based upon the base fuel efficiency of an engine, deduct for the trans, and start deducting from there for options... In 1987 a 350 GTA or 350 Trans Am was NA with T-tops, the sub woofer, and the rear shade... I am sure the sub woofer and rear shade had something to do with body flex, but I am not sure how.

In 1991 & 1992 only the Formula was available with T-tops and 350, but it was mandatory to get the lightweight wheels (cross laced, all of which were painted black.)

Both 1991 & 1992 Model years produced about 200 each year with the combo.

John

IMissMy86TA

The only year a US GTA was with t-tops and 350 was 89 if my info is correct.
Thats why the 1989 GTA with both is a prized possession.

okfoz

Also the only year to get a convertible with the 350 in the Pontiac.