Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Hello everyone. This is my first of probably many posts on this forum.

My current vehicles are a 2001 Z06 Corvette and 2001 WS6 Trans Am. I just purchased my Z06 and am going to be putting my WS6 back to stock and selling it. My intentions then are to take the forged 347 ls1 and fabbed 9" out and install into a lighter car for a street/mostly strip vehicle.

My two options are, a 4th gen or a 3rd gen. Having had two IROC Camaros in the past I am a big fan of them, that and the fact they are cheaper and easier to find parts for makes it a better looking choice to me.

Either car I get will be stripped, no rear seat, plastics, a/c, just two drag seats and a 10 pt cage. The drivetrain will consist of my forged 347 which made 468 rwhp and 435 rwtq through my 4.10 geared 9", and that was fresh with 200 miles on it, as well as a Turbo Hyd tranny, not sure weather a TH350 or TH400 yet, and my Midwest Fabbed 9" rear end with the rod ended suspension and torque arm setup I have. The motor will also be running how it was built to run, on a 200hp wet shot of nitrous with a stand alone fuel system.

Im fully aware of the price of LSx swap headers, which is rediculous. as well as the fact that the 9" I have is 1" wider than the standard 3rd gen diff. The biggest reason im looking to a third gen, aside from having something a little different than the slew of 4th gen camaros at the local dragstrips out here is the weight. A fourth gen is about 3500 lbs while a 3rd gen is just under 3300 I believe. Take the aluminum motor and replace the heavy cast iron motor in the thrid gen and put fiberglass hood and fenders and remove the useless stuff and a sub 3000 lb car should be easily done.

My big questions are:

What weight are the fast guys here running at? The engine platform isnt a big deal but I mean just a stripped down bare bones race car.

What kind of weight saving parts are available still? i.e. speedglass rear window, fiberglass fenders, doors, tubed bumper supports ect.

Has anyone tried fabricating their own headers for an LSx? Keeping in mind im a decent welder and by no means a newbie.

Also if anyone has any commects or suggestions on my setup id like to hear em, and thats the biggest reason I didnt spend hours using the search function.

Thanks!

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Here are the specs on the motor if anyone is interested:

Built by Cunningham Motorsports in Lake Elsinore, Ca
Stock 98 block-cut out rear oil passage to match 99+ blocks
Stock GM crank
Manley forged rods-arp 8740 bolts
Wiseco forged pistons-3.905 bore, -3.2 cc valve reliefs
235/240 .620/.620 112+4 cam-specd by Cunninham Motorsports
PRC 5.3 stage 2.5 heads-PRC double springs, milled to 58cc chambers
Yella Terra rockers
Melling 10296 oil pump
Cloyes Timing chain
ARP Head and Main studs
FAST 92 ported by Vengeance Racing
Nick Williams 92mm throttle body
11.5:1 compression

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Fiberglass fenders for a third gen, if they're even available separately, probably weigh more than the thin steel factory fenders.

Third gens are not as light as you think. It depends what options are in the car. There are some people who can get them close to 2800 pounds using a SBC. As much as you try to reduce weight, you're also putting more weight back in with a full cage.

Lexan has a bit of a weight saving. Replacing the windshield with Lexan only saves 10 pounds. The rear glass and deck lid probably weigh around 100 pounds so converting that to Lexan and fiberglass really helps. My rear window is a piece of 1/8" Lexan that's riveted to the body and the deck lid is a piece of aluminum. The deck lid can be removed for accessing the battery by removing a bunch of Dzus fasteners.

My race weight last year, car, driver, fuel etc sitting on the starting line was just under 3100 pounds. That's with a BBC and a full cage. You can't get much more gutted than what I've got without going to a full tube chassis car.

Use the TGO search engine for specific answers. Dropping in an LSx into a third gen has been done so lots of people know what's involved. You're not going to get many responses about putting in an LSx engine in the racing forum.

To reduce weight for a strip only car, remove everything not required for speed or safety. Replace whatever you need to keep with lightweight parts if possible.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Thanks for the help, was actually just reading your threads on glasss doors and mid plates. It surprises the hell out of me that with all your weight reduction you are still at 3000 lbs when I see 4th gen cars stripped down at 2800 when they start heavier. Ofcourse I realize you are running an aluminum headed BBC and that it weighs quite a bit more than my little 347, I just thought it would be alot lighter.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Most of those cars that are 2800 pounds on tech don't include the 200 pound driver FYI. There's a few of us on here with ls1 motors ;) Personally mine has a carb on top, my car has some weight savings but isn't gutted at all and is still a pig. If you want a light drag race car you should be looking at a fox notch and get the 3rd/4th gen camaros out of your mind. Buddy is down to 2550 pounds with one with his carb'd ls1 engine and th350 trans along with a 10 point moly cage and moly subframes.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

I dont wanna go that far hahaha. No stangs for me. Im a die hard GM and F body guy, im 23 and have owned around 13 F bodies, right now I own 3, a 68, a 72 and my 01, all Firebirds.

I know they dont include the drivers weight but ive even seen them down right around 2700 lb range. Thats why im asking. I have a good deal right now on a hardtop 4th gen but am considering passing it up and picking up a $500 87 RS to start my build. Like I said I miss my third gens and they are cheaper and easier to get to the motor but I also thought they would be lighter.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Down to a shell i don't think a 3rd gen is much lighter then a 4th gen. Of course i would go with a 3rd gen just because they look better and are a lot easier to work on under the hood.

The reason everyone goes with 4th gens is simple, they are complete. Most third gens nowadays are fixer uppers...need a little bit of work to get them together. But for an all out drag car that you already have the drivetrain already i would definitely go with the 3rd gen.

I had my 92 down to 3080 without me in in with a alum headed sbc. 4 pt rollbar, full stereo including sub. Full interior minus the rear seats. No a/c or heat gutted dash. I had removed the rear bumper support, i ran an early z28 alum bumper support that was like 11lbs.

Unfortunately my 92 is in pieces right now...i'd like to get back to it but i picked up an 02 Z06. You know how that is. But the Z without me is like 3050. Nice to have all those ammenities, run around a road course and still turn low 11 time slips with just bolt ons. :)

Realistically with a completely gutted 3rd gen i think you would have trouble getting under 2900-3000 race ready with full cage. That's an all motor or nos car. Not talking turbo or blower which will add a lot more weight.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Yea alot of guys like the look of 4th gens more. Alot of guys when I started talking about a third gen said they are ugly. Personally I like 4th gens but have always really liked the 3rd gen Camaros, however I wouldnt touch a third gen bird if it was given to me.

I can easily get a 4th gen to around 3000lbs too but if i only wanted 3000lbs id keep my WS6 and strip it. Im looking for 2800 lbs or under. On a fourth gen with the parts I have it wouldnt be hard, just stripping parts and a few new ones.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

my car with a 347, 4l60e, 9", 8pt roll bar, full power doors, all four seats, and pretty much full interior is right at 3000lbs less driver. mind you i have no HVAC whatsoever, and at the time, i was running a manual box and 'glass hood. i'd imagine that if you'd gut the car completely, to leave only a gauge cluster/switch panel, and a driver's seat, it'd be in the 2700-2800lb range. with a 10 bolt, lift off hood, no roll bar and an iron headed sbc, i had it down to 2910lbs a few years ago.

this year i'm thinking the backseats are going to come out, and when i do my dash swap, everything will be gutted down to the outer shell, and appropriate guages/switches for functionality...i've got an iron 370 going in along with my steel flat hood is back on, so i'm definitely going to have to come up with some way to reduce the weight. i've always had a light car, it'd be terrible to find out i weigh 3500lbs race weight :gocrazy:

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

That's why I say race weight. It's now much weight the engine has to move down the track. I actually hopped onto a scale a few weeks ago just to see how much I weigh. I haven't been on a scale since the 80's. Just over 170 pounds.

So take my 2009 race weight of 3085 pounds and subtract my weight and the car itself is around 2915. I want a race weight of 2800 some day. The fiberglass door swap will help but it's still not enough.

I bought my car back in the spring of 1999. It was a street legal car that was rust free. I spent more than I wanted to on a potential race car but didn't want a rust bucket. 11 years later, there's not much left of the original car and cars that were around 11 years ago are probably a lot more rusty. Fixing rust in a unibody car is not fun.

I never even got a chance to drive my car on the street. The previous owner drove it to my house and pulled his plates. I fabricated some tow bar mounts, hauled it to the shop and started gutting it the next day. It's come a long way since 1999.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Oh ok I misunderstood you, I thought you were meaning the car is 3000 some pounds. That is much better. I think im going to end up seeing how the deal turns out on this 4th gen im interested in and if I cant get it cheap enough ill pick up a nice 87 RS Hardtop I know of for $500.

Only thing that worries me about the 3rd gen is the headers. I have a hard time spending $1000 + for headers on my vette, I certainly dont want to pay that much for my "budget" race car.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

headers are really only about $800. there are several members here who have had good luck building their own as well. i would have, and i may still eventually. with all these results of guys running stepped headers, 1 7/8-2" primaries even on stock engines, it makes me want to try to do a set myself. but i was about to get married when i was putting the ls1 in the car, and time was very important to me, so i just bit the bullet and bought the hawks headers.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Yea thats a good point, ill have to look into teh hawks and see what size tubes they are, probably 1 3/4 only and id like 1 7/8.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

for what they are, they perform relatively well though. mine are 1 3/4" primaries with a 3" collector, you could get them with a 2.5" collector (why though?) as well. we'll see about larger headers later, but these are doing what i need them to, and they fit GREAT on the car. here is a quick picture of the newest exhaust on the car, dual 3" with an x-pipe. you can see where it puts the collector. this picture is kinda deceiving because the camera is on the ground. it's actually got like 5" of clearance.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs198....39_91036_n.jpg

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

on a nearly empty tank and no nitrous bottle my car weighed 2980 with me in it last year at commerce. (i weigh around 165) i have since changed a few things around, however.
this was with a 1 3/4" 8pt. mild steel rollbar, all interior plastic, carpet, and 4th gen dash. 1 kirkey seat.
also had a sbc, th400, and a moser 9".

still has power window stuff, working headlight motors, electric trunk pulldown, and the rear bumper is still in there.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

So around 2815 with all the junk in the doors, all the interior other than the seats, a heavy motor and roll bar and heavy rear end.

Im going to strip all the interior and everything beind the dash, a chromoly cage, all aluminum nitrous motor, my rear end is fabbed from chromoly with an aluminum center, all chromoly suspension and ill probably gut the doors and run speed glass.

Still has me debating between 3rd and 4th gen, im going to look at a good shape 4th gen for a steal at $1700 that runs and drives...decisions decisions

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

the deciding factor for me would be access for working on the car. look at all the room you have here:


Attachment 421383

and, all the rear suspension awesomeness that makes these cars work well as a "stock suspension/small tire car" is the same between the two.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

yessir.... how much is in your budget for all the suspension/cage/fuel system/electronics?

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

I don't even use a chain that big to lift my BBC :)

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

and i know that my $engine$ will never fall due to a failed chain:)

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Yea I love that about third gens too

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Well I already have all of the rear suspension because my WS6 is fully built its just too heavy, cage doesnt matter because ill tig it in myself, not sure on fuel system and I have all teh electronics.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Well I bought teh 4th gen. Just coulnt pass up the deal. I may stick a stock shortblock in it and sell it again though and buy a third gen. Still un decided...

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

I'd personally gut the WS6 and let it eat. How fast are you trying to go? gutted with the right tranny/gear combo, your car with that shot should be well into the 9's. With 640whp i've trapped 141mph with a 3500-3550 lb estimated raceweight irocz. Full everything. you will have darn near 650whp and capable of 200-300lbs less than me. With nitrous, you'll leave harder than me so you will run lower mid 9's

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

oh well, i tried :) now you'll have just another ls1 fourthgen....

an ls1 thirdgen is so much cooler when you open the hood...the looks you get are priceless.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

matt i don't know, i never get any double takes with the motor under my hood :(

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Why are you putting the interior in race mode and putting a flat hood back on?

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

well, to be honest, it's an in-between hood, i thought i would keep it a while, turns out i was wrong. i sold my harwood to help fund the new motor, but my wife wants another cowl hood on the car, so i've found one that i like that is actually cheaper than what i sold the harwood for. i didn't care for the harwood hood, but i got it for free, so i ran with it. i was un-impressed with the weight of that hood though, and i'm going to go ahead and do a pin-on hood.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

my glasstek pin-on can't weigh more than 10 pounds I'd imagine.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Like I said im still unsure, but im not dumb enough to pass up a runnning driving 98 Z28 for $1700, may need a shortblock but I can stick an iron block in it and have $2200 in the car and sell it for an easy $5k.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

oh, i gotcha. yeah, that would be kinda dumb, lol!

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

So how fast are you trying to go?

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

My motor made 468rwhp and 435rwtq off the bottle. Ill be spraying a 200 hp shot and instead of 91 octane from teh tank ill be spraying either MS109 or C16, probably 650-675rwhp on the bottle.

That said, if I hit a high 9 ill be pretty happy but its never fast enough...ill just want to go faster next time

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

2870 with me in the car, iron headed sbc. That is according to the scales at the track (CDP)

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Mine is considerably more gutted than most stock suspension cars, but also has a considerably heavier cage/frame and components than most. With me pushing a tad over 200lbs now, I was 3012 after a pass. Glass hood, deck lid, all poly windows, completely gutted front end, carbon fiber doors, etc, etc. Stock front spindles and brakes, I haven't completed the wilwoods on the other spindles yet but I will be this weekend and I intend to weigh each package to see what the difference is, but I have also added a 2nd bottle and the associated plumbing. I also run two group 29 batteries which weigh around 70lbs each. Since I have had a 3k lb minimum for most the classes I run, there has been no reason to change them just to need ballast to make minimum.

After the brakes I expect the car to be under 3k with me in it, and I'm on a diet to get back around 170-180ish anyway. - They just allowed a 50lb weight break for single carbs in OL632, so I should be right around the allowed 2950.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

If your going to gut/strip it, and wanna go fast, this will offend everybody, but look into a fox body, you lose 1000lbs right off the bat, that's a full second faster using identical chebbie drivline.....I like the 3rd gens, but i hate them more so since packaging is a joke, everything is tight tight, so if your going to use a 3rd gen, and going to gut it, take some time and make a frame work so you can make a removible doghouse/trans tunnel for easy access to tranny stuff which is the worst part of this car.

Stock suspension design runs easily into single digit territory, but life would be much simplier by just desiging and installing a ladder bar or 4 link system out back...nobody said you have to use big tires, but at least that way you can maximize the chasis for whatever engine you drop in.

There's a pleather of fiberglass stuff, budget and ability is your only restriction
HERE

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

if you are trying to go that fast and concerned about weight, you need to buy a chassis car, loose all that heavy stock front suspension crap that also makes the car a nightmare to work on. My 86 weighs 2600 with a B/B and a t/400 w/all steel body except hood, w/stock dash. with your engine you should be down under 2500lbs...it's for sale in the classifieds here..Rob

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

I am a long time mustang guy who is planing on building a nice Formula 350 for some reason. I'm thinking about a stock 6.2 L98 with an 88mm single. I would say this about the 3rd gen cars. There is a reason they are the car of choice for super stock racers. With the correct ride height and setup they are way more arrow dynamic than fox bodies. Here is my suggestions:

Call PA racing for a tubular K member
get some light weight front brakes like wilwood or aerospace
go to a light weight aluminum front strut
tubular front bumper supports
manual rack and pinion
mini tub the rear with double adjustable coil overs with an anti roll bar
pic out some light weight bogart or weld wheels
use your LS1 and nitrous system with a well built glide
I would run some Kirky race seats and leave the stock door panels and dash in but remove all the factory wiring and re wire with a good fused switch panel
Have a nice chromoly cage installed
get a light lift off hood

All this should put you at 2500 lbs a fox body coupe mustang on the same diet would only be about a buck and half lighter if that.

With all the good suspension parts available I think its silly to "back halve" a car with all the noisy sheet metal and unless your planning on running outlaw 10.5 it is just not required since f-bodies have gone in the 7 second range with true 10.5 slicks.

A mini tubed car with 29.5x10.5-15 looks better than a back halved car with 32x14.50s and the tires are about 30lbs a piece lighter IMO.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

good freaking luck with that! thats tube chassis territory

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

6.2L L98? The L98 is a 5.7L TPI.

You don't need aluminum spindles/struts
You don't need tubular bumper supports however when you get to the speeds I'm currently at, some minor support is needed.
Chrome Moly cage is nice however the increased cost doesn't justify the weight reduction. Mild steel cages can be certified down to 7.50 as a 25.5D SFI spec cage. A basic MS cage can easily certify to 8.50. If you run quicker than 7.50 in the 1/4 mile then you need CM but also need a lot more stuff.
A liftoff hood is only nice when you have someone to help remove it. Third gen hoods are still very big and awkward to handle by one person.

My back halved sheet metal isn't "noisy". I hear rocks being thrown up against the aluminum panels when driving through the pits but that's about it. If you don't want to hear the rocks, do the interior like a SuperStock car and carpet over all the tin in the back.

I doubt you'll get the car down to 2500 pounds without going to a complete tube chassis car. If you're lucky, you "might" get the car itself into the 2700 pound range. My gutted out race car's race weight (car, driver, fuel, sitting on the starting line) was just under 3100 pounds last year and I'm trying to get it back under 3000 pounds. I add around 175 pounds to the car so going on a diet won't reduce much.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

A tubular K-member and manual rack and pinion along with aluminum struts and light weight brakes and wheels will remove 250 pounds easy. From what I have seen on this site not many people are running tubular K-members. The gear box and k-member are really heavy. I may have been generous in saying 2500 lbs but we have built these cars to weigh 2700 with out the driver.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

The factory k-member isn't as heavy as it looks and there are quite a few TGO members running tubular k-members. I went tubular mainly for clearance issues.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

there's no way I lost 250 pounds off the nose of my car by doing tubular parts and manual steering, etc. ANY thirdgen that is 2700 is a gutted tin can unless we're talking lexan windows and fiberglass doors, etc. I don't see a 9" rear and a minimum 6 point roll bar and subframes having any sort of "stock" appearance at 2700

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

NFW on the weight...I probably have the most gutted tube chassis car on here, and I mean gutted, w/a moly cage and I'm at 2600...Rob

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Anyone have actual numbers on this? I wouldn't be surprised if a chrome moly cage wouldn't be half the weight of a MS one, not only do they allow thinner walls, and in some cases smaller diameter for most of the tubes. Come to think of it, I have no idea what a cage made of either weighs. If someone has a number for either you should be able to calculate the actual weight of the other fairly accurately

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

For a typical 12 point cage, you need about 70 feet of tubing.

.120 DOM 1 5/8" 1.929 PPF
.095 4130 1 5/8" 1.552 PPF

You would save roughly 27 pounds

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

i had a cm 8 point that weighed around 36lbs, i believe.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

Well, that doesn't add up, at those weights in Alky's numbers the 4130 would weigh 111# and the 1018 one would weigh 138#, and I doubt that a 12pt would be more than 2x an 8pt, and even 2x Diggler's numbers is barely half of that...

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

i know it was removed from a car in 2 pieces (cut the hoop in half in the middle) and i could pick up each half and stand on the scale with it. i could be mistaken on the weight, but it seems like thats what it was. 18# per side or some junk.
the guy i sold it to is taking it back out of his car now, so ill see if he can weigh it again.

Re: Have some questions and need some opinions on thrid gen drag car
 

When I did my cage back in this thread

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...roll-cage.html

The final weight came in around 182 pounds. I have a mix of DOM and ERW and a mix of different size tubing. It's far more than a a typical 8, 10 or 12 point cage but it's still heavy.

If you had a 36 pound cage or roll bar, it must have been made with exhaust tubing or was a show roll bar, not made for roll over protection.