E85 & Fuel Options
 

Anyone here have a third gen running on E85? What would a person need if they were trying to convert over to E85?:confused:

hello neighbor!



E85 is a joke. I am a huge liberal, personally, and I think that ethanol is a bad idea. It's leading us in the wrong direction. I don't know the characteristics of it inside an older engine, but I do know that it's REALLY not worth the effort. If gas is getting too expensive, ride a bike. Instead of selling an f-body, learn to cope. We're all affected.

Try scrolling down to the other E85 post?

Especially to the uninformed.
Don't let facts get in your way.

There has been a bunch of misinformation about it around these parts lately. "Ethanol is corrosive," "Ethanol wears out the engine," "Ethanol burns hotter," ad nauseum.

E85 is a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

No, it's a way to make the demand for transportable potential energy renewable while using a smaller portion of an ever increasing supply of what is currently the most economically viable source of said energy that was supposed to have run out on us 30 years ago if you believe the same people that are still telling us we're running out of it and shouldn't be using the evil automobile to provide us the mobility that has become fundamental to our freedom of movement that has fueled the most productive society in the history of man which really sticks in the craw of those who want to tell us what we can do with our lives to provide the ease and comfort they think they deserve to have provided for them by the masses who need to be controlled by limiting the options made available to them in such areas as freedom of livelihood and movement because if these less equal types are allowed the freedom to innovate and provide for themselves then those elitist may have to actually go out and earn a living for themselves instead of sucking from the teats of prosperity as they have been as long as the cow of the masses isn't allowed to go wherever it wants to go and is kept ignorant by government-controlled education that convinces said masses that something isn't workable even though they don't know how something works because they can't think for themselves and don't know how to research basic information even though this wonderful means of information transfer called the Internet is available so they can find out these things without having to rely on a media that is a willing participant in the misinformation campaign to keep the masses under the control of the few which when you think about it is interesting that here is a renewable resource that uses carbon dioxide to grow the plants that make the sugars that are fermented and distilled to make the alcohol that would replace the evil petroleum that is putting too much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and causing global warming that actually makes the plants that produce the sugars to make alcohol grow better but they instead tell us that alcohol takes more energy to make than it uses but don't mention that the distillation can be accomplished by solar or wind energy that don't produce any of these so-called greenhouse gases that converting to a mostly-alcohol fuel would reduce if they would let the machine of free enterprise work to provide the infrastructure that would make this alternative viable but then they wouldn't be in control which is the true desire of these type that believe they occupy the moral high ground. . .

::takes deep breath:: Seriously though, that's kinda difficult to take in with no punctuation.

I have to agree with five7kid.

I would also like to comment on this quote: "It's leading us in the wrong direction."

E85 is a new and popular alternative gas blend. It is 85% ethanol which is a renewable source of energy that can be manufactured and distributed domestically. If even a small percentage of the country switches to E85, the dependency on foreign oil will decrease. As a result, if we are importing less oil and consuming less oil, the price of gasoline should also decrease.
Not to mention that E85 is better for environmental reasons.

I can't see how this trend would be leading the country to any direction but the right one.

You can find E85 information at National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition

Derek The Great, I haven't heard of anyone running E85 in a thirdgen.
There is some conversion information available at Frequently Asked Questions

I'm not trying to argue with anyone. Just my 2 cents.

Hope this helps.

So, Five7, what do you think? Should I try it in my 98 bonneville? That was the purpose of my earlier thread on this subject? Do you see any reasons not to try it?

Also, token, the "short term solution is a pretty decent one. I drive 130ish miles roundtrip every day, and it could save me over 5 dollars a day. Thats a new cam in a month. Or lunch at work. Take your pic.

There's a post on here of some guys who put a turbo on a 305 and converted it to E85, they were overseas where E85 is popular. E85 is a powerful fuel, it takes more to make power but you can make more power with it; it's a good thing! Straight Methanol cost 85 dollars for a 55 gallon drum, my mechanic runs it in his Regal and it's a wicked car. E85 will be a great solution as long as the powers that be don't jack the cost of it up to 10 cents over gasoline to keep us buying there gas, after all we've still got to buy it from the gas companies. As a note the guy that runs TBI chips and often sells on e Bay now has proms set up for S10's and full size trucks to run E85 on an experimental basis.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ht=volvo+turbo

That's one of the single coolest threads ever. They go lightly into what converting to E85 does, and requires. Good luck.

Frankly, E85 is a great fuel for the future, Its renewable:) And the farmers here in Indiana mite start to make money on there crops. I'm so sick of being a mail box farmer, Its government well fair!! Our government sells our crops to country's like Africa that have no money or they just give the crops away for humanitarian efforts. How in the world can farmers make a living? The Democrats don't want E because they want us to feed the rest of the world!! I say let the rest of the world eat oil! And we'll use our land for fuel and make a dollar.

There are some very good threads on E conversions on this web page. It really is not that hard to do fuel pump, stainless fuel line, replace rubber and aluminum pieces, and reprogram ecm.

I don't clam to be the expert on E85 conversions, I've never done it. But, I just can't believe that you'll would rather be a sand n****r whipping boy, than be proactive and do something about the gas pricing issue.

Don't tell me about how bad e85 is until you know what your talking about, I mean its 200 proof alcohol, what do you expect? Oil?

Well, glad got that out:) :nod:

57 tht was by far the longest run on sentance I have ever seen. EVER!

I wouldn't mind trying e85 myself the only problem is the one car I have to try it on is my rx7 which is my baby and even though the motor is strong they are sensative to minor tuning issues. and I don't know how well the ECU would be able to adjust for the difference in mixture. even more so being it is VERY easy to get out of closed loop.

My honda on the other hand would make a good canidate being it is a beater and cheap but tuning would become a nightmare I'm ASSUMING with the old cvcc system. plus being carbed I might have to do some rejetting on the carb depending on how much eth I run. and since this cvcc setup is designed to run lean as is I'm not sure how far I could even push it

from JoBy
"The driveability is great. WOT is a bit on the rich side and we don't use a lot of timing. There is probably more power to be found, but we want to keep it a bit on the safe side for now.

We also converted the Camaro to an environment-friendly vehicle too.

It is now running on E85 ethanol fuel. You can read about it here Clean Air Choice™ - E85

Why?

Ethanol has less energy than gas, but it also require less oxygen to burn. An engine will make the same power on ethanol, but it requires about 45% more fuel volume to get the right mixture.

E85 has higher octane.
E85 has a 4-5 times higher cooling effect.
Here in Sweden E85 cost about 30% less than gas.

We have used E85 for a while now and we get about 12 MPG and that is with a lot of WOT and not much highway.

When we converted to E85 the knock indicator went calm, almost died ... nothing. I don't think that it will be a problen running 15 psi boost on the stock engine with E85.

The problem we have right now is fuel delivery. The fuel pump is running on the edge now so we have removed the stock in tank pump. Now we are going to use two external pumps in parallel instead.

Then we can increase boost "

More from JoBy:

"
Pure ethanol has an AFR of 9:1 compared to 14.7:1 for gasoline.

With the same amount of air you need 63% (14.7/9) more fuel weight. Ethanol has higher density than gasoline so you only need 52% more volume.

E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline so all together you need about 45% more fuel volume.

You only need more fuel to use E85. You could also advance timing a bit.

Ethanol is not as bad as methanol, but seals and hoses opimized for gasoline can be a problem. It is best to use hoses with a PTFE core.

One downside with E85 is that the engine is difficult to start in cold weather. You start to have problems below 50F."

One more from JoBy:

"I start with the O2 sensor, and it might be a bit confusing.

We use a WB lambda that show AFR=14.7 for stoichmetric. The sensor measures lambda and converts lambda=1.0 to AFR=14.7 and show that. With ethanol in the tank the sensor works the same and measure lambda=1.0. The real AFR is 9.0 but the display will still show 14.7 because that is the conversion built into the meter. So you still tune to the same numbers as you would with gas.

During WOT the engine will use 45% more fuel with E85.

Part throttle is another thing. A friend of mine with a supercharged 1986 IROC managed to increase the avreage mileage when he converted to E85.

The reson is that you can lean out much more with E85 at part throttle.

At highway speed you can go to about AFR 16 on the meter, then you start to feel that it is running lean and that you loose power.

With E85 you can lean out to 18-19 on the meter before you start to lose driveability."

On your RX7 unless it's a turbo and has some serious tweaking done to the prom I doubt you could get it to run. Those cars require lower octane fuel due to the nature of the rotary engine. Now the Honda would be a different story, jet the carb up and add timing; you're good to go. As shown above you will have to do some work with getting it to behave but it would probably be worth it if E85 maintains a low price. To all TPI guys, this swap over is a no brainer, our proms already have highway spark mode enabled in them and with tweaking we can probably get a killer E85 burning milleage/power combo out of our cars.

the rx7 doesn't have a prom that can easily be tuned like you guys. from my understanding they made it to not be tampered with. could be done from what I have seen but I'm no electrical engineer.

the other things that could cause problems though on the honda is the compression is static 8:1. it has a two combustion chamber design and a three bbl carb. two intake ports and one exhuast port.

for the carb it is a main bbl, aux bbl, and the secondary equiv to your 4bbl.

the main feeds a very lean mixture into the main combustion chamber. the aux bbl feeds a slightly rich mixture into the auxilery combustion chamber. the reason for this is the lean mixture is too hard to ignite straight from the spark plug so you create a second chamber run it slightly rich and it will ignite easily then when that ignites it will shoot a flame into the main chamber igniting the ultra lean stuff.

so now the problem comes with tuning both to work together since you have to think of the aux and main as two seperate carbs and if the mixture between the two of them isn't right it just blows the flame out and you get no run. plus if I do end up going down on power thta is a lot too lose. I only have 68 hp when the car was new 190k miles ago :D. though good news is the car might be seeing another project soon enough. have a weber conversion I'm getting ready to go through once I get a few other things on the mazda worked out. and with the weber should go a turbo. this weber though will get rid of the whole CVCC design instead feeding both combustion chambers as it would in a normal system.


I'm taking it E85 would be more friendly to a tuning mistake? and what happens though if I don't have e85 around how much worse would it run on a just straight gas other then rich? only one e85 pump around here part of why I ask even more so being it is slightly out of the way

i like the idea of it because we can keep internal combustion engines.. i wouldnt ever buy a hybrid or fuel cell car because theres no vroom vroom u kno? But more importantly the farmers get to make more corn for the alcohol and therefore the economy should see a significant gain... Whats more is that it only uses 15% gasoline, so if world were to switch over night (like that would happen) the world supply should last about 85 % longer...

From GM I've only heard of trucks being set up for flex. Otherwise, you'd have to make it a permanent switch.
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I wanted the government-educated types to be on familiar territory, since so many of them haven't been taught English. . . :D

IMPORTANT! If you live in parts of Canada or in the United States, and you use gasoline to power a motor vehicle and/or recreational equipment, this will apply to you. Bear with me, as this may get long and wordy.

If you are in one of those areas where fuel has previously been oxygenated with the addition of MTBE instead of ethanol, you may already have experienced some problems with the federally mandated change to ethanol blends at the 10% rate. Even with that blend rate, the ethanol is going to start cleaning out your fuel tank, lines, and system parts. The liberated sediment is going to collect in your filter, so EVERYONE affected by this changeover needs to plan to change their fuel filter some time this summer, if not sooner. We all know what running an electric fuel pump with a clogging filter will eventfully do to the pump. Flow will be reduced, so cooling will be reduced, and pumping resistance will increase, so pump current will increase. Unless you are one of those very few who actually enjoy removing and replacing fuel pumps and stressed pump wiring and connectors, plan on changing your fuel filter at least once in the near future, and twice if you really don’t want to replace the pump.

Those of us who have used ethanol blends for years have already survived this exercise, and some of us have learned the hard way and lost pumps as a result. I have been fortunate, and learned from everyone else’s mistakes, and not lost any components. I’ve been using E-10 since 1976 and through 21 different vehicles (not counting boats, snowmobiles, etc) I have “lost” a total of one carburetor float due to ethanol. Nine of those vehicles have/had electric fuel pumps, and none of those nine ever failed over the total 1,260,000 miles driven by those vehicles (Yes - 1.26 million miles).

A maintained fuel system is your best insurance against damage. If you change your filters as recommended, you’ll never really know if you have “saved” a fuel pump or not. Conversely, if you neglect to change your fuel filter, you’ll be a lot more likely to prove me right.

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Maintenance notwithstanding, E-85 is a different game altogether.

I've been running my '96 half-truck on ethanol blends between 50-85% for the last nine months. It was NOT designed to run more than 10-20% ethanol blends, and use of E-85 is NOT recommended in it. I have not lost fuel pumps, fuel lines, tanks, filters, FPRs, injectors, EVAP parts, or anything else. I HAVE lost a little mileage, but my overall fuel costs have dropped, even though I use a bit more liquid fuel. Right now, E-10 87 octane “regular” is $2.95-9/10 while E-85 105 octane is $2.23-9/10. I can afford to burn over 25% more fuel and still break even with E-85, when in fact I burn about 10% more fuel.

What I have experienced is that during colder weather (about 20°F and below) starting is a little harder since ethanol is not as volatile as gasoline. At 0°F and below, I’ve had to start the engine maybe three times after sitting out overnight. Once running, there are no problems. I have found that with under 60% ethanol, I can minimize the starting problems and moisture accumulation in cold weather. Much over 55-60%, and I start experiencing harder starts and a couple other issues.

I have also noticed in winter driving with higher alcohol concentrations that moisture accumulation in the crankcase is increased, so a functioning PCV system is imperative, and driving long enough to evaporate crankcase moisture is critical. Short trips with any kind of fuel or oil are bad for an engine. Short trips in colder weather are even worse. However, they are a little worse with ethanol/methanol. As the warmer weather has returned, there are no starting problems, and water emulsification in the oil is no longer a factor.

Since increasing the ethanol content for the last nine months, I have also seen spark plugs as clean and white as a senator's hair, and removal and inspection of the O² sensor has shown the same thing. There is little doubt that the tendencies are lean and clean.

The E-85 available at the pumps is supposed to be anhydrous, but tends to attract moisture while in vented storage. Along with the functioning PCV system to help keep the crankcase dry, having a fully functional EVAP system is important, not only to prevent the loss of fuel at $3/gallon, but to reduce accumulated moisture in the fuel tank by maintaining a good seal. The alcohol will absorb atmospheric moisture, but it still travels through the fuel system and will be "burned" by the engine and/or deposited in the oil.

Long term, I am considering removing the head (yeah, all ONE of them) and shaving it a bit for some higher compression to take full advantage of the higher octane, slower burning fuel. At only 130,000 miles on PAO synthetic, the pistons are not yet ready for replacement. I am also considering increasing the injector size to better compensate for the change in flow rates.

That said, I would caution you against the use of E-85 in your '98 Bonne and expecting no adjustments as a result. Instead, if you are willing to experiment, get a couple of 5-gallon fuel cans, fill them with E-85, and start increasing the ethanol content in your fuel. Keep a record of how much alcohol is in the fuel, remembering that 10% of the “regular” fuel you are pumping in is now also ethanol. Be patient, as any problems may not surface immediately. Watch your crankcase level and oil condition closely during your experiment, and monitor the operating parameters more closely. You should notice a little cooler engine, possibly slightly higher oil pressure as a result. You may also notice a drop in mileage, and an entirely different exhaust aroma on cold starts.

Maintain the filter as suggested, since the increase to higher ethanol concentrations will scrub that last remaining but of crud from your tank and system. Expect to experience some lean exhaust error codes until you get the blend percentage right. You should also experience a slightly slower engine warmup, and lower peak coolant temperatures. If you have previously changed your thermostat to a lower temperature opening type, you may want to change back to the 195°F type originally installed in your engine. Alcohol LOVES the hotter intakes, and absorbs a lot of heat from the intake air. Expect your fuel consumption to increase slightly, but your fuel cost to decrease even more. Expect the exhaust to emit a lot more moisture on cold startup, and possibly the oxygen sensors to reach temperature a little more slowly.

If you are concerned about the alcohol being harsh for your fuel pump and injectors, you can mix two-cycle oil at a rate of about 100:1 in your 5-gallon tanks periodically. (I’ve been doing that for several years to the last tank of fuel in vehicles/engines I’ve stored for winter, just to prevent deposit formation.) I’ve also done this a couple times since starting the experiment with the half-truck. I’ve noticed that the oil in the fuel creates some extra hydrocarbons in the exhaust and has “fooled” the oxygen sensor into thinking the mixture is richer than it really is. I have also inspected the O² after doing this and noticed neither contamination nor damage as a result. AutoTap scanning has shown that sensor activity and bias point crossing is normal compared to some older logged scans I have done without any E-85 and/or two-cycle oil. More time will tell is the sensor is surviving, but I’ve not seen any data to indicate problems so far.

So where is the standing ovation for Five7 and Vader!!!

Five7, PLEASE go back and edit that for easier reading for those of us that have become accustomed to punctuation and spacing. :lol:

There has been a running debate on this on another board, and the biggest crap I keep hearing is that it takes more energy to make than it produces. The 'proof' typically presented is this site:

My immediate issue with this was that it is no put it into context... what is the cost is gas to produce a gallon of gas. It's not like there is a pump at the station tapped into a gasoline well underneath.

Additionally, I can do this at home with wood that I grow, corn that I grow and yeast that I grow. Granted, not everyone could, but I have the room and resources. I can't see how it would be a negative gain that way.

Likewise with this site:


Ethanol and the Calculation Issue - Mises Institute


Again, not in context with the costs to produce an oil rig, shipping of the oil, processing, delivery, etc.

The arguments are flawed in the percentages, assumptions and examples. When I see an argument, for either side, that will put concurrent contextually relevent comaprisons that make sense (in the common form) in their arguments, then I'll take that as the top running argument.

As it is now, I don't believe anyone but my two hands and brain. They say with al the stuff I can grow like wood, yeast, corn etc. The only thing I'm using is fuel and oil. Since my oil is a true synthetic, the only crude derivative I'm using is to harvest and transport (at the beginning) and the 15%, but I can take transportation out of my equaion and give me a positive gain as I don't have to ship it from the other side of the world. Hmmm.. I'm going to guess I'm not at a net energy loss. It's as hard to argue against common sense.

What I forsee is a run on BATF lisc. requests. I think I'll be applying for mine soon even though I won't be able to produce anything right off the bat.

Glad this made it as a sticky, should be made into an announcement for a little while IMNSHO.

Now onto the 12:1 + compression ratios. :D

Think no vroom? I drove a toyota prius the other day that I would put against 90% of the thirdgens here, in the 1/8. The holeshot is incredible. about 400 ft lbs of torque at 1000 rpms. Not a typo. The motor and engine will work together. Its quite a nice ride.

If only to reduce the demand on gasoline, I think E-85 is a good idea. I don't think it would be possible for us to produce enough crops to support 100% of the gas needs of the United States, but with an alternative to gasoline, oil companies would be forced to lower their prices.

Whiner. You're just spoiled from reading all those legal briefs and technical writings.

I grow wood at home, too. I'm not sure I want to get it anywhere near a still, however, and am damn sure I try to keep it away from yeast.

Regardless of the price to produce, distribute, and dispense the product, my final measure of that is at the pump. The octane is costing about $3/gallon, and the E-85 is costing about $2.25. If the state and federal governments are not making as much in tax revenue from E-85 as they are from octane, so be it. It's not my immediate problem, and should actually be an eventual solution to one of the real problems of goverments having too much money to spend and not enough time to think about it, instead of the inverse if that situation (as it probably should be).

If someone is "losing money" by selling the E-85 at a lower cost, they won't be in business for long. So far, they've been in the E-85 business for almost ten years, and the ethanol as fuel business for about 30 years, and "little" companies like ADM seem to be "eeking by" on the "loss" or profits.


Other board? There are other places like this on the WWW?


I'll try to keep that information from falling into the hands of the "She-Devil"... The place wouldn't be quite the same if she found out.

creating more crops to grow ethanol from vegetables is win-win. Ideally it would be blended with petroleum fuel to hopefully lower the cost of fuel, as well as slowing our overall usage of petroleum products, and also....


Producing more alcohol (grain alcohol) would tilt the supply and demand to the supply side, lowering the cost of alcohol. I would like to support this economy, I think i'll go out and polish off a 6 pack now... :lmao:

One problem with E85 is the fact that producing more would probably cut into the worlds food supply since the US is the single largest exporter of food. I guess we're to cerials what the middle east is to oil. I say to hell with them, starve 'em. So what if they live in a desert. I want my cheap E85.

Watch it old man or I'll call Mrs. Vader and have her pull your silver pancake topper! Besides, I always liked the argument side over everything else. ;)

See, for us younger folks, the wood grows all on it's own. Hanging out near a still typically means later useage. Oh, and you don't have to shout out to the world that you don't like using the oven. TMI. :p

I'm very interested in trying to make my own. That would be, regardless of the critics, likely the cheapest alternative possible. Wonder how hard it would be to convert mowers etc....

Don't get me started. :lmao:

Not my fault she can't keep up with me. :D And do that and I'll send her and her timed foul mood up to you... though I'd feel bad after seeing the news repors of your self-inflicted demise. :lmao:

your right! with a 0-60mph just shy of 10secs 90% of the cars here would lose!
:bs: :lmao:
keep on dreamin that bud.:rolleyes:

E85 has its possibilities, Phx doesnt serve it though.

E85 is 105 octane, for a price comparable
to premium.

almost any car can run 30 percent E85

105... wow, E85 would be killer to run as an auxillary nitrous fuel. I knew it was high octane but not that high. Thanks Contact.

Go drive one. Then go stoplight to stoplight. See what you think. Then go and read about the common modifications made to them. I guess you think the new accord is a joke too?
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....tentid=4022737

"best 0-to-60 time of 7.48 seconds and a quarter-mile time of 16 seconds flat at 89 mph." hmmm that traps at 90mph...which is 10mph faster than the other hybrid you posted...wow... thats incredibly fast. Thing is...i was commenting on your this would beat 90% of the owners here. anything running 16secs in the quarter mile is slow. i dont know what kind of stoplights you go from, maybe there only like 50ft apart. Then that race depends on reaction time.

People are out there modifying hybrids for performance? hoo boy, now i've heard it all. Not that i'm doubting you LJ, I think it's believeable, I just think new technology breeds new retards.

Quote of the week?

nothing wrong with trying to tweak a hybrid.

A hybrid, as it was designed, is to save fuel. Saving fuel is usually hand in hand with a gutless motor.
Now lets say you want to go fast. Why spend big $ buying a hybrid, then more money making it fast? (which will, I'm willing to bet, cause it burn more fuel?) When instead you could have skipped a step, and bought a better platform in the first place.
Hence, I own a 1982 Trans-am with a fresh 350.

Anyway, i'm totally off topic, so i'll back off...

"new technology breeds new retards" "Quote of the week?":lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :thanks:

All I know is my TA wont run unless it has (91) so i dont think E85 is a good idea. If your having prob with the gas price buy a motorcycle like everyone else ,if you cant ride a bike buy a GEO metro 65hp 35mpg for like 1000$ and your set , there's many solutions to this prob, but im no giving up my car because of gas

always exceptions to the rule though as far as slow cars being a waste. not to stray off topic for too long but early civic hatchbacks. gutless car but no weight easy to make go fast. some mods also will enable go fast without a big hit in mileage and sometimes even better mileage. exhaust, intake, turbo's generally don't cause too much fo a differencei n gas mileage
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why would E85 be a problem due to your car running on 91?

I'm not even going to touch that. I want to stay away from discussing hybrids and imports, as they aren't 3rd gen related, and I don't even know enough about either to have a halfway intelligent conversation, let alone an arguement. :eek: :lmao:

....anyway! Like Rx7 speed is alluding to, E85 does not refer to it having an apparent octane of 85 points, (as you might be thinking), but it refers to the fuel as being 85% Ethanol, and 15% mystery mix gasoline. Technically it has an apparent octane of 105 or so. (I say apparent octane, because when i'm talking about propane for example, some people say it has "an octane of 114", when in reality, propane is a hydrocarbon that contains none of the hydrocarbon "octane", hence, apparent octane. I have no idea the *exact* contents of E85, such as octane levels, so I say apparent octane. /end quote from my brother the geologist.....

stupid smart people who make things overcomplicated. apparent octane.. blah blah it's still has an octane rating that's good enough :D


havoxe30 chances are you have driven your car on E10 as well. its a mx of 10ethenol and 90% gas.

I don't know where this "apparent octane" stuff comes from, but it doesn't seem to have much of a relationship to reality.

"Octane" is short for "2,2,4-trimethylpentane", or "isooctane". It is used as the standard for anti-knock properties of spark ignition engines, and is given a "100" rating. If a fuel is less knock resistant than isooctane, it will be given an octane rating of less than 100. If more knock resistant, greater than 100. It is an arbitrary scale, not an absolute number, and there is more than one scale out there. "Research" and "Motor" are the two most commonly used scales in the US, and the current octane rating standard is to take (R+M)/2 --- right there, you should see that there is some "fudging" that can go on here. The "Motor" scale is the most relevant to everyday driving conditions, for what that's worth.

More info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating .

ah, there you go. I hear "octane", and the prefix is "oct", aka, eight, so I think a hydrocarbon with 8 carbon atoms in the chain. That is what "octane" is (to a chemist).

Propane is a "pure" hydrocarbon with 3 carbon atoms per molecule, hence propane contains zero of the hydrocarbon "octane". Propane (or ethane) cannot contain a percentage of octane, in the strictest sense of the phrase.

I have heard of the R+M/2 etc, but I still hear octane and think of "octane". Chemistry class taking over my brain. Technically the "octane" number on a pump is, like you say a nice fudged imaginary number, which refers to a fuels resistance to detonation (as if it were compared to being a mixture of a fuel which contains primarily octane.) However in the strictest sense of the phrase, a fuel that contains no octane, yet contains an octane rating, to me, is "apparent octane". Yes, I made that up the other day. No, you shouldn't start using that phrase, as 57 mentioned it is fictictious. :lmao:

Whoever is saying E85 is a joke get your head out of your ***.... OIL is a joke... maybe your all city slickers and thats why you think it... i live in IOWA the state that leads the way with ethanol... you guys want a good example of how good ethanol is look at brazil there have almost no dependance on oil and use most all ethanol.... think again

oil sure isn't a joke for all the cars out there on the road man. my honda would prolly take some serious work to run well on E85. sure jetting the carb and advance the timing a little. but if what I hear on E85 is that it likes compression 8:1 isn't going to help much. and my rx7 is kinda stuck at 9.4 compression. I can't just swap out the pistons on this car to up the compression. then comes all the work on either car of fitting the fuel systems to work well with the ethanol. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would have problems and yup I'm city slicking it up here in idaho :D took the cow for a walk today on the way to the stock market :p

How tough would it be to raise the compression of that rotary via a turbo? The ethanol likes the heat from compressed air (sucks a lot of heat out of that air) and has a pretty significant antiknock rating. Yeah, it might be a little pricey to retrofit a tubo or blower, but...

As for the fuel system itself, most components are probably already compatible - Probably.

Anyway, cows are a source of methane, not ethanol. Let's not get off on another tangent. ;)

And the stock market? That produces a different kind of gas altogether.

hey ya... i understand all the current vehicles it would be a pain to get things switched over.... but the damn government needs to step up and all new vehicles need to be flex fuel capable and ****... im just sayin ethanol is going to be the way of the future it has to be thats why they call oil a fossil fuel... it aint going to be around forever and ethanol is going to help the cause... my dad is a farmer too so ethanol helps the farmer... its time we put our money into our own country not in the hands of the people that want to attack us.... i did a big research paper over ethanol in college so im PRO ethanol for sure... all new vehicles need to be able to run on it thats what im sayin... and all gas stations need to at least offer it... :thanks:

Let the market handle it. The absolute worst thing we could do is let the government dictate it. The best thing the government can do for all of us is to allow it.

(Of course, if we had a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, this wouldn't be a problem. . . )

Why won't oil be around forever? Do you actually believe the peak oil crap? As for being able to run, most every car that comes out now can run a decent amount in them. Vader's isn't a flex fuel car and he's sitting at what, about 50/50 mix right now?

Exactly! :iagree:

new exhuast manifold would be required, plus the stock computer doesn't handle boost that well. then comes the injectors which won't be able to handle that much more juice flowing htrough them from the turbo alone much less turbo plus e85. then the tuning. my god that would be a nightmare since unlike you guys the ecu is not tweakable unless you are a very good electrical engineer and can reverse engineer the mazda setup. haven't heard of many doing that yet other then 1-2 people setting it up so they can datalog but that was about it.

fuel componets might be another story they might work on the mazda.

the honda is hopefully going to have a turbo on it soon enough. I've been sitting here pondering how to route everything and figure out what all I need to get this done. only main problem I have with the project right now with e85 usage is only one station offers it. though I guess if I get creative enough could prolly put together some adjust a jet device that works kinda like the old q-jets did with an o2 sensor and a needle going through the jet reading the o2 sensor adjusting to keep the mixture a little leaner when using gasoline but that is more work then I want to put into this car

Like it or not, there is already government involvement. Hopefully, those in power will have the sense (this time) to listen to the market and the people, and only act to remove any artificial barriers to market forces.

Alternative energy could be the unifying goal of this era, much like the lunar mission of the 1960s. (That whole exercise bred much new technology that benefits us still today.) Ethanol is a proven technology - Just not here. It is just one part of a solution. The other parts are still out there, waiting to be discovered, and may breed a lot more technology that can be used in many other fields.

FWIW, I can actually run a 60/40 blend with no problems. This is on a vehicle designed strictly for gasoline or only 10% ethanol. I can go higher with a few adjustments, and am running between 75-80% ethanol since the weather has warmed above 45°. Right now, my gasoline mileage is about 90.5 MPG (since only 20% of what I'm burning is gasoline). Overall fuel mileage has dropped to 18.1 MPG combined, whereas it used to be averaging 19.3 MPG. It's still cheaper to drive on the ethanol blend.