Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Has anyone done it?

It's a dream of mine... I wonder what kinda times a stock thirdgen would pull, since they were supposedly some of the best handling cars of the 80s.

When I win the lottery, I'm flying a hopped up thirdgen to Germany to give it a shot. :nod:

I'll run a few laps with the 88 IROC-Z in Grand Turismo 4, its about like a stock L98 car power wise, should give a rough idea. I'd bet it'll do 9:xx if its really pushed. Straightaway is gonna feel like all afternoon.

Id love to run it in anay car. That track has a lot to do with acceleration, handeling, and every other aspect of racing. It looks like a good time, so long as there is noone to go by, or passing you!

FWIW I got it to do 8:21.411 set completely stock.

Im going to try the 02 Camaro SS and 69 SS 350 and see what they do... should be interesting.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...d133/IROC2.jpg

Aint she a beaut?

Except for those hood fin things...

ANd dude, where did you get those wheels? Are tehy Impala wheels or just lookalikes?

Hahaha where did you hear that...? That statement is wrong on so many levels... I have a 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo track car and I would consider it one of the best, if not the best handling car of the 80's. I don't think a straight axle, heavy *** F-body comes close to being considered a good handling car... E30 M3s, Porsche 944s, FC RX-7s, Ferrari GTOs, Toyota MR2, Audi Quattros, the list goes on. Those are the best handling cars of the 80's. You are crazy if you think that thirdgens are some of the best handling cars of the 80's...

And to the guy who posted GT4, its a game. Porsche 996s run times like you were getting with the IROC. It's the furthest thing from accurate. That IROC-Z would be so brake faded it wouldn't make one lap of the ring.

From what I gather a 3rd gen F-body is the best handling of all the camaros and has the lowest center of gravity and is also the lightest of all the camaros.

It handles better than Mustangs, that desnt leave much contemporary domestic competition. Skidpad ratings on tese cars werent shabby, although they dont mean much.

Sure a 911 GT3 would smoke it, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that it would get its *** handed to it by anything European. For what tehy were, heavy American V8 muscle cars, they handle pretty well, especially after getting some performance shocks/struts on it to get it up to par (Even if that's "cheating").

I guess it depends on what you consider handling "pretty well". From someone who owns an 80's Camaro and an 80's Porsche and has a fair amount of experience setting up road racing cars (I crew a BMW Cup team for a living) I can tell you there is absolutely no comparison. Stock for stock, or modded for modded. I don't really think the 3rd gen Fbodys are in a class with any other 80's car built to handle. I just don't agree that they are some of the best handling cars of the 80's.

Not that I don't love my Camaro, but as you say, it is what it is, fast, cheap, and fun on the street. I wouldn't dream of taking it to a roadcourse, but thats just me.

there is a lot more to handling then just skidpad (which is for the most part a static measurement in the dynamic world of handling) and center of gravity.

that suprised me though that someone OTHER THEN ME brought up the rx7 for one of the better handling cars in the 80's, though I know I must bow down to the 944 for handling :(. just curious though as I get my numbers all mixed up but didn't the 944 have that weird 4 wheel steering also or was that another one of the porsches?

The Porsche 959 had All Wheel Drive in the 80's but not All wheel steering. And I would have been remiss to mention the best handling cars of the 80's and leave out the FC RX-7 :)

There is a magazine here in the uk called practical performance car and one of the contributors recently went round the 'ring in his camaro,if i remember correctly it was an 85iroc with a 350 on a carb with a stick shift with a little bit of weight loss(aircon,interior etc).I think he did it in 9 and a bit but cant find the mag,when ido i'll let you know.

I did a search and found the car I was refering to which was the 924. the weissbach axle or something

speaking of germany
there putting a speed limit on the autobahn to help reduce greenhouse gases
its going to be like 120km/h or something like that
:lmao:

that's like what 65-70mph or something like that? still need to figure out how to use metric distance as only the rest of the world uses it.

I don't believe that option came out in the states?

screwed up. it was the 928 not the 924.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weissach_Axle
can't even spell the name of the thing right either.

Thirdgens,, well to correct myself the later F41's weren't as bad as stated in this thread. I am glad they can cut corners, brake and hold the road as hard as they do. Otherwise, I would probably be in a casket with a few of my other friends. I can't speak for every pos on this forum, but I know for a fact that they can cut hard rights @ 96 mph in pure stock form. (Disclaimer: Please Do Not attempt this!) As for what they can do at the German Track, I do not really know. I mean top end on the TPI cars isn't the greatest, and 70 to 110mph just sucks, though it does pick up around 120. I guess looking at the times on some of the cars at the ring, I think one would do 9 to 10 minutes on it, but that completely depends on the sanity of the driver and condition of the car as they are 20 years old. In perfect condition, I could see a 1LE or G92 car popping a mid 9.

If it means anything to the world cup guy, an 89' G92 LB9 5 spd with 36.5k miles, can do 36 miles in about 15 minutes on the street....

Im not saying that older Z28's are even sports cars anymore, but they really aren't as bad as stated.

Oh and thats not an IROC in that game,, look at the front clip, regular Z28

The pervious owner had bougth them on the car, they are ROH something or others... they do look like those impala wheels from the side, but they are quite a bit deeper dished.

for your buck youd be hard pressed to find a better handling car. also for those that are more expensive if you took the cash you saved and put it into upgrades im sure youd be doing just as well :)

Nissan 240SX/S14, Toyota MR2, Toyota AE86, E30 3 Series, etc..

There are tons of cheaper cars that will run laps around thirdgens all day..

Of all the cars I listed, only the 944/951 or maybe FC depending on condition is more expensive than a 3rd gen.

the cars you listed are A. only cheaper now, B. besides the porsche, are not faster unless you bought the turbo which was a good chunk change more there is a great site that has alot of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times from magizines like car and driver and road and track. You can call it bogus if you want but it is a neutral site. therefore having no biases.

Well, an 06 Z06 in stock form went 7:42, so I'll give the Iroc 7:43.

Well, maybe not. I'd say probably in the mid-low 9s.

n/a FC can be had for around 1000-4000 depending on condition/mods and such
turbo usually start around 2500-5000 in decent shape

when does a turbo change handling or are you changing your arguement now?

I would expect a 1LE car to run between 8:30 and 9:30 around the ring.

Oh Please!, The fastest time for a Stock Z06 is 7:42. 6:55 is the official time to beat for a production road car in stock trim and is held by the Radical SR8. The fastest time for a full bodied stock street car is 7:28 held by the Porsche Carrera GT.

Lets try to stick to posting fact only please...

then why was the IROC so dominate in SCCA racing in the late 80's? Why do alot of ppl run fbodies in road racing circuits and do so well in them? the 1LE car with its better brakes will handle just fine. i just fail to believe those other 80's cars will "run circles" around a Irocz. i think it is a close comparison

the viper srt10 did the ring in 8:13 if i recall right. C5 vettes were in the 8.40's. mini cooper was in the 8.55 range

so i expect a thirdgen to be in the high 8's

What do 0-60 and 1/4 mile times have to do with handling? It's easy for someone without any roadracing experence to say "gee my 3rd gen handles pretty smoothly on the street" and start bench racing it on the ring and throwing times out of your imagination, or worse using GT4 (a videogame, which at best is a little light on realism) as an example for supposed performance.

The only thing i'm going to call bogus are the claims that 3rd gens are some of the best handling cars of the 80's and the claim that they are the best handling car for the price...

However this is not to say that they can't be road raced, or autocrossed, in fact its quite the opposite. It's not uncommon to see them as track cars or autocrossed, with moderate success, I just refute the two previous claims as not really being based on fact.

I'm careful not to throw any numbers out on the subject of an F-body on the ring, as its not really the kind of thing you can just "estimate", but thats not really what i'm trying to address.

orr they dominated their class maybe. and that is only one style of racing. I could say the same about the rx7 being it dominated the GTU curcuit for a decade there. and hey if nothing else though you have one thing on me with the camaro's at least. they dominated the internation race of champions right? :p

hells yes the iroc dominated the iroc series it even replaced the porsche..! lol

Exactly, I was gonna say how could they "dominate" SCCA...

And I was hoping someone would actually say something about the Race of Champions :lmao:

Thats like saying your Fusion is fast because they race them in Nascar... Ever heard of a purpose built tube car...:crazy:

I'm hoping to do it this summer since I'm planning a roadtrip in Europe with my camaro. Too bad it's only a 2,8 :(

If this goes well I'll make sure to post some pictures

I know one thing, a third gen is one of the best handling cars any normal person would drive. I hate 80s Porsches, they are ugly as hell. And as far as American I would have to say they outhandle most cars made in the US. What even brought these European cars into this thread, we were just guessing at what time it would run.


P.S. Dont Bash a Third Gen if you own one, If you do you dont deserve it.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

so people can't bash a thirdgen unless they own one? and if they do they don't deserve it if they say any bad? so you mean to tell me I should blindly follow a car that has many flaws to it's design as the all mighty car of the world? sorry but your thirdgen isn't no perfect car and just like many others has flaws.

as far as handling goes even for what a normal person to drive it isn't one of the best handling cars. good at handling compared to a lot of others, yes, but by far not one of the best. If nothing else it may be just one of the best YOU have driven.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Since you are obviously directing your post at me, i'm not "bashing" anything, a third gen is just not what I would consider a "really good handling car" on any level especially since I own/have owned several "really good handling" cars. To say I don't deserve a third gen is going a little far...:rolleyes:

rx7speed brings up a very valid point (as he has several times in this thread), if you haven't experienced driving a wide variety of cars you can't really pass judgement. Just because a car is passive and goes where you point it in normal street driving.

And Camaro 5690, I'm an adult and if you try to turn this into a flame war I won't waste my time on it. If we can't have an objective discussion whats the point...? 'Nuff said :)

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

to further what I was saying there as well. in saying that the car is not one of the best is to to say the car sucks, neither does it mean that I am bashing the thirdgen. if I said the thirdgen wasn't of the fastest cars either top speed wise or even acceleration wise am I bashing the thirdgen? not really as there have been many cars that can do both faster then the thirdgen. it's honestly not a put down.

as far as handling goes many would consider a FWD car to be very good at handling due to it's forgiving traits. doesn't mean the car handles good or anything though except to those few that think a forgiving attitude is good handling. others might say the viper handles horribly but it seems that the car does fairly well as far as handling goes but the one problem is you mess up your done. a fair amount of good handling cars have that same trait of being not very forgiving if you mess up, mainly a lot of midengine cars carry that. then with handling you also have other things to think about. as far as the course goes. there is a difference between tracks. a track that has mostly high speed sweeper style turns kinda like a nascar track vs a track that is more dynamic with tight turns of changing radius and such.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

yeah but even in magazine comparos i thought they had the thirdgens listed as the best handling cars..or among the best. i know for a fact when the 84 Z28 came out, it was definately rated as a good handling car

but then again, it depends on teh track. some cars are better at shorter/tighter curvy courses where steering precision and quick direction changes take place. on more open tracks, high speed stability on corners is more important, and reflects the skid pad numbers more.

I still think a FE2 suspension IROCZ is one of the better handling cars around. But like you said, i dont have as much experience in driving other cars so my comments mean nothing. but from my experience with my car, i cant imagine how anything can handle that much better. it be downright scary. full suspension mods on my car have proven to be very capable on the street, and i do drive it hard on occassion.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

The 1985 Z28 was Car and Drivers Best Handling American made Car.
Watched these vids this morning,
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...promos-gm.html

I do know first hand about hard driving on small and large auto-x courses. My car (and most larger cars) don't do all that well on the really tight course.
this past weekend I was running 40seconds, a C4 vette was doing 37-39seconds and the smaller cars (miata's civics, Elises and Exiges) were in the 34-40 range. the course was tiny and I had street tires on so I'd steer with the gas pedal.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

that would be one of the biggest downfalls for the thirdgen is those tighter courses. it can kind of be seen by the slolam numbers that the thirdgens have, though even the skidpad numbers aren't phenominal. though one thing I will say also though is these "benchmarks" aren't the end all of handling.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

It was a typo. I did mean 7:42. Dyslexia at its best.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

yes, i understand the test benchmarks today dont really reflect true handling performance

V6Toy and his other names on this site really knew his handing stuff and probly has taken a thirdgen as far as most ppl on this board. I'm sure he'd say the thirdgen is not as bad as some ppl say they are.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Never once did I say it was bad, but it from my perspective, and with my time spent in my Porsche and my Camaro there is no comparison in handling, and both cars are 1986 model year (obviously the Porsche is more aggressively modded, full coilovers, STB, Camber plates, Springs, Weight reduced, etc.) but even comparing stock, I don't think the Camaro touches any of the FC RX-7s, E30 BMWs, MR2s, or Audis of the 80's, and this is something I can attest to.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Lets not compare a game to real life here...

Also beyond that a 3rd gen is also far from the best handling Fbodies... The 4th gens kill them, they grip ohhh soo much better, they are better balanced, and transfer weight better.

I recently went from a great condition 4th gen to great condition 3rd gen and slide it sideways a few times on accident expecting it to handle the same way.

The 3rd gen is probably the best handling RWD sports car with a live rear axle from its years and out of domestic cars... I could probably go with that.

The reason they handle so much better then the fox bodies is those were too short, too nose heavy and not wide enough... They literally sucked for handling characteristics and it got them banned from various forms of racing *not sure what ones*. Anyways they were also incredibly unstable at high speeds, if you have ever been in a 3rd gen at 150 and in a foxbody at 150 you know exactly what I mean.. I have had my Iroc to about 160-165 and I felt okay, not safe! but okay... In pumped and built foxbodies I have been to about 130-140s and felt like I was going to die.

I would go with some of the other guys here and say a stock 3rd gen would lap high 8's mid 9's. The new CTS-V did it in like 7:**, so I would say that there is no way a third gen is going to make that. Not close to the power, or the handling.

Don't get me wrong I love my third gens, but they just were built during the wrong time for stuff like that, at least stock. I'll talk to a friend of mine stationed in Germany, he has a '90 Iroc out there, I'll ask him if he can run it some day and give me his time, his is about stock with minor suspension upgrades and various bolt ones, new runners and such.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Remember, the driver is the most important part of the equation, especially on a road course.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Sure porsche's handle a lot better, but when was the last time you saw a $400 Porsche? And Nikos89, basically what you are saying, is that between the Fbodies and Foxbodies, the Fbody is the best handling car :P

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Eh pretty much...

But there aren't too many foreign sports cars from even the 80's that came with live rear axles either.. The have been pretty big on independent for a long long time.

And when it come down to it, Porsche owns the roadster cars, they handle like a living dream! I have driven many, would never own one personally I don't like them enough... But I have to give the respect where its due..

As for the $400 Porsche, a friend of mine just picked up a nice running one for $1200.. It needs a new paint job and some body work, but runs and drives great. About 160hp, and a 5spd.. Zoom zoom its fun, 914 I think he said it was.

I'm a Ferrari guy myself... A 360cs will suffice just fine. Carbon fiber door panels, metal floors *no carpet*, no stereo, 450hp, 198mph, a road race god for 100k$ from Ferrari, who can argue..

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

ok if remember right I saw an article or two not to long ago that stated the camaro was a better handling car than the fox mustangs, they didn't mention anything about it being the best. I will say I would rather be in a third gen at high speeds than any earlier camaro or musclecar or pretty much any fwd car period. I'm sure if you compared an Irocz to a 396 first gen the iroc would out handle it no doubt, but to say that it is the best is insane, however if you've ever looked at the way the porsche stuff of the same era is built you'll notice they are not even in the same ballpark, for example I'm doing some work on an 89 944 and it actually has the transmission located on the rear axel if some people hear didn't know this they also came factory with 4wheel disbrakes and inependent rear suspension, porsche is known for doing this to gain something like a 60-40 weight distribution. It's hard for me to even cmoprehend why one would compare a straight axel f-body. oh yea just to throw this out there, maintance costs on an old porshce aren't much cheaper than they were when they were new.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

Maintenance costs about the same if you can do the work yourself.

Difference is as much as i hate to say it in general terms the Porsche needs it less...

But yes that is a good point they are 2 totally different worlds...

It's like comparing a F450 to a Kenmore...

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

ok, I can see stuff like oil changes and brakejobs being about the same parts wise but I'd hate for anything inside my motor on a porsche to go wrong due to milage, I'm pretty sure you could build smallblocks for third gens for less than you could repair a porsche motor.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

i really dont know about the 4th gens handling much better though? Correct me if im wrong but as far as the body goes its the same damn car... Im pretty sure that the 3rd gens had more aggressive spring rates,, camber, toe etc.

Re: Thirdgen around the Nurburgring?
 

stiffer isn't always better. if you get the spring rates up too high or not balanced for verything else it can and will cause a loss of grip.