Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Gettin really close Allen. Let's try to git this thing on the Dyno by next month! I wonder if that will fit under the hood of a certain '71 elCamino???

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

is looking real good, hoping to see results soon

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

I sure hope it fits under your hood. Things are looking pretty good and I hope we have the results by next month.

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A little update. Talked to Steve out at Westech and it will be around the end of November or the first part of December before they can fit us in. Being EFI makes the scheduling a little tougher. Just about there.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Great project. Looking forward to seeing it on the dyno.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Thanks everyone. We dropped the motor and intake off at the Westech dyno factility in Mira Loma, California today. The motor now is in line to get dyno'd.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Can't wait to see the results!!!
You've put enough thought and hard work into this design.
C'mon third wave harmonics ;)

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what happens. I'm hoping it will act somewhat like a tunnel ram. Then again it could have great torque and just average horsepower. We shall see.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

You've got to feel like an expectant father waiting outside the delivery room. Very exciting stuff.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Yes, it will be interesting for sure.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Edit: I posted version 2 of the LTR project in the wrong thread. Hahaha. I just moved it to the proper thread.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

What am I missing here. This doesn't look anything like what you designed earlier in this thread?

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

That looks very nice. The xx-large runners are very obvious to me(ofcourse I have a 91 vette sitting in the bay right beside me on which I just did the intake manifold). I'll bet however that the average CARB inspector would have a difficult time making them out. The entire system looks so clean.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

With version one of the LTR Project the car passed California smog and the tech did no bat an eye. Hopefully I will have some engine results within a couple of weeks for the TPI Cross Ram in this thread.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

The cross ram is the one I am anxious to see results on. Once I get finished with my new transmission, I am going to focus on my new motor and my own version of the cross ram.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

That intake is going to kick arse, should pull the power seemingly forever!
Nice line of sight too, given the length.

Wonder if you ground the welds down texture coated it to dumb down the fabbed look if it would look more superrammish to the smog guy?

(personally like the way it is now)

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Awesome work!! Can't wait to see results of this one...

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Hi Ron

The intent was to "beautify" it if the dyno results turned out good. But seeing it will be going into a non-smog car we may just leave it as is with maybe some minor clean-up.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Saw this intake by John Marcella for an LSX motor. However the internals have some similarities to my TPI Cross Ram. Maybe mine will turn out OK. Here are the pictures.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Great minds think alike... ;)

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

89GTATransAm

John hangs out over on the Yellow-Bullit. He is very cool about any questions you may have. C U tomorrow!

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Okay guys, we heard back from Westech. We now have a firm date of January 10 for the dyno test. I have to take the monoblade throttle body off my car and get it out to them no later than the 9th. So no challenging my Trans Am to any races during that time frame. :)

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Agree with you love the way yours looks now. Alum looks...just right fabbed/welded and all.

Marcella does some insanely clean work, artist for sure.
Cant even afford to look at his stuff lol.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Great work.. looks awesome.. Something I've been wanting to do..
(tuning in for the end results)

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Just got back from Westech with the dyno results. What happened is what I was afraid of what was going to happen and that was the hindering of the airflow in the plenum. I think the runners sticking up into the plenum was creating way to much turbulence. Actually everything went real good with no problems on the dyno so that part was good news.

I think it will be easy to rectify the problem. I will but it on a mill and cut down the runners to just above the plenum base plate. This will shorten them up maybe 1.250 inches going by the centerline of the runners. By cutting the runners off to just above the base I can make a nice smooth radius transition into the runner. Might need a little welding to add some material for the radius. Here are the results. The graph shows the same motor with a ported Edelbrock Air Gap intake. Mine peters out around 5000rpm. Here is a chart and graph.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/v...mDynoChart.jpg

Attachment 356190

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Wow definately something happened at 5000 rpm and up. Torque dropped off and thus hp lacked.

Interesting to see how milled runners will work

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We have a discussion and some analysis going on over on Speed Talk about what is going on. I think the consensus is cylinders 1 and 3 are starving for air. The air is just shooting right by them. So if that is the case milling off the runners won't do it. So as of the moment I am thinking of putting in a deflector for cylinders 1 and 3. Maybe for 6 an 8 also.

I will attach a drawing with black lines showing where the deflectors might go. The picture angle is not the best for doing this as things are a little askew. Here is the picture.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Can you get wideband data on each cylinder or just read plugs after the pull to verify?

Also what about just making plenum one big square box?

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Next time on the dyno we will hook up all 8 O2 sensors to see what each cylinder is doing. Looking into options with the plenum. I could make a temporary box that raises the existing plenum up maybe 3".

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Update: Some good ideas are being put forth over on Speed Talk. There clearly is an air distribution problem. Especially with the 1 and 3 runner entrances. So we need to figure out a way to slow the air down. I might have to extend runners 1 and 3 some to get the entrances away from the throttle body.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

I have come up with 4 things I may want to try.

1. Extend runners 1 and 3 to get them out of the air flow from the throttle body. I will only to the exterior walls and leave the runner wall divider where it is. My thinking is that I believe there is some shear going on in the runner entry area. The air is not coming in on a straight line. With the center divider say a 1/2 inch or more down it will in effect double the area of the entrance. I would think that in effect would cut the air speed in half at the runner entrance. It would also give the air a chance to straighten out before it splits into the paired runners.

2. With runners 1 and 3 install a barrier between the now extended runner entrances and the throttle body. Maybe a 1/2 to 1 inch beyond the #3 runner. Hopefully this will keep the turbulence of the entry away from those runners. Also it will effectively shorten the runners somewhat. Hopefully this will raise the rpm range maybe 200 more rpm. I feel it needs to be a little higher.

3. With the other 3 paired runners cut down the center divider the same 1/2 inch or more. The reasons are the same in number 1.

4. Install a ramp from the plenum floor up the side of runner #1 at the throttle body entrance. This should help cut down on turbulence instead of the air slamming into the side of the runner.

I will have the unit in hand today and will take some measurements to see about some of the other ideas put forth

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

I've been out of touch for a little bit. Very busy at work. The dyno results are a little less than what I had hoped for you. You mention a concern of turbulence in the plenum. Especially affecting cylinders 1&3. This was one concern I had as I watched your design come together. One thing that's been on my mind as I've thought about this is the sharp edges around the runner entries. You created nice bell mouths but the end in a sharp edge at the 90 degree point. If you look at the LS intake pictured above, you notice how the protruding runners end in a 270 degree round mouth. I wonder how much this reduces turbulence through the plenum. You also, due to the inherent nature of the crossram, straight runner design, have the runners crossing in the incoming airstream. Your idea of raising the plenum ceiling slightly may help in this area. The deflector idea you pictured may help the cylinders mentioned, but may also contribute to the turbulence issue and reduce overall efficiency.

You've got a very interesting and promising idea here. I think with some minor tuning you can definitely find more power with it. Keep up the good work.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

"You've got a very interesting and promising idea here. I think with some minor tuning you can definitely find more power with it. Keep up the good work. "


I agree. With a little tweaking here and there it should come around. I have had some people do a flow analysis on it and some good ideas suggested. Right now I have another hot project going and it is taking all my time and resources. So later in the year I will get back on it.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

"Right now I have another hot project going."

LOL. When do you sleep man? It's great that you're working on more new things. Anything we here on TGO would be interested in?

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

No not Third Gen related. I am putting a L92 motor with a 6L80 transmission into a 1965 Buick Skylark. I guess you would call it a resto-mod.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Sounds like a really fun project. I have the priviledge of being the mechanic for several classic vehicles, ranging from a 40 Studebaker Commander to a 72 Dodge Monaco. The owners of these are sticklers about staying original. I did manage to convince the Monaco owner to let me install headlamp relays to reduce the load on his OE wiring and improve headlamp performance. Getting him to make that switch was like pulling teeth, but he'll appreciate it very much the next time he drives at night.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

That is one thing I will be doing and that is upgrading the car from a safety standpoing such as disc brakes all the way around.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

All early cars, our third gens included, benefit greatly from upgraded brakes. That may be the best upgrade I've made to mine yet. Until recently, the OE has just not done well with brakes.

I'm so excited right now I can hardly sit still. I just ordered the parts for my new transmission this week. Can't wait to open those boxes and see all the really cool parts that will make up my new beasty 700R4. It's $1,600 worth the parts alone when many would just buy a prebuilt for less than that. But this unit will be built far beyond what any prebuilt(aside from the PATC Extreme Raptor)comes with.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Oops. Deleted by mistake.

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Well the end product looks great, hopefully you can tweak it make what you were aiming for. Keep us posted.

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Ok, a little update. On my 1965 Buick Skylark the L92 motor gave up the ghost with rod-knock I think. I have not taken the motor apart yet. So going to install a 427 LS3 based short block. This is draining my resources and putting off money for the TPI Cross Ram project.

On to the TPI Cross Ram project. I am going to change the plenum design. As has been posted earlier with pictures of other setups I will be going to a twin plenum design. I will remove the Super Ram style plenum. The new design will look something like this. Then the question will be one or two throttle bodies?

Attachment 334043

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

The runners in your picture are obviously LS style, individual alternating runners, and would not work for an SBC, so I assume the runners will be alternating pairs like your previous work.

The mount for a single throttle body would naturally provide the balance between the two plenums, and allow you to use the stock air filter, or any aftermarket CAI.

Meanwhile, dual TBs would require a dedicated connection for balance. You could simply mount an air cleaner on each TB, as least for testing. For CAI, you would be doing something like this (courtesy of HotRod):
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...d=280100&stc=1

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Thank you for the interesting picture. Yes the runners will be based on the SBC spacing. The single throttle body is most like the way I will be going. As you stated one can use the factory intake system if need be.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Separate plenums joining to single TB Im betting would get the job done I bet

Would you have a close up pic of your radius? The starving cyls sounds valid just wondering if the issue couldnt be two fold

Keep up the good work

Neat stuff!:driving:

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

Regarding the radius are you talking about the entry into the runners? It will be a lot easier and cheaper to build one with a single throttle body. I think the starvation was from the way the runners poked into the plenum that was causing all sorts of air flow problems.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

I'm so happy to see more progress(even if it's just at the R&D level) on your cross ram. I have been inactive on the forums for some time, since I finished my new transmission. I have had to make up for all the time I borrowed from my family. Also working like crazy. Sorry to hear the bad news on your 65 Buick. Your engine idea sounds great though.

The new cross ram design idea you have looks alot, in its basic premise, like the cross ram design pictured in post #10 of this thread. I can't remember the make of that manifold. I did quite a bit of research on it myself at the time looking for options for my own intake. That piece may work as raw materials for your new design approach.

I've been thinking for some time of an EFI manifold based on the Edelbrock #7110 tunnel ram base. It would need alot of work to fit under the strut tower brace, while retaining a spacious plenum, and I would need to work out how to adapt injectors to the ports. It would be something like the HSR, but it has basic design features, like a segregated lifter valley cover, that will allow me to resolve alot of the HSR's inherent problems. The biggest problem I see with the HSR is the flat plenum floor that creates problems at the runner entries. I would design a dropped floor plenum that would move the runner entries out of the airstream from the throttles.

The Miniram has too small a plenum due to its compact, low profile design. I've looked at both of these intakes for modification to correct their weaknesses but, with the work involved in fixing either one, building my own from the 7110 base seems like a better alternative. The Eddy 7110 tunnel ram base, like the HSR, is inexpensive. So to buy one for experimentation wouldn't be too painful, even if it doesn't work out. I don't have machine shop capabilities, nor do I TIG weld, so I would need to find someone interested in working on the project with me. That will be the expensive part. I figure even if the intake costs me $2,000, it's worth it to me. This intake will go onto the 406 I plan to build in next few years.

Now you have me thinking once again about the cross ram idea. I will watch your progress closely.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

That's an Inglese "cross-ram", but it looks like Comp Cams may have bought them out or at least was selling these in 2010????
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Ca...010/PDF/31.pdf
That literature says it is available as an EFI unit - I guess like below.

Here's a link to Fox Injection that has more pictures of this intake as an individual runner EFI.
http://www.foxinjection.com/

http://www.foxinjection.com/uploads/...95979_orig.jpg

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

There will be similarities but also some differences.

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

I'm glad to see this alive again!
I have been thinking and looking at my T-ram intakes. If you could cast new tanks that had a opening or flange to install or bolt the Y piece to connect each tank/throttle body and then machine the stock throttle body area and unused old plenum center off, I think you would have a lot of design work finished. (It would look like the intake you posted above)

Now getting the balls to machine the crap out of one of those intakes will be the test! lol

Re: TPI Cross Ram Construction Thread
 

I am going to look into buying the plenums. Then adapt them for my use.