1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Guys

I thought I would start a new thread on the TPI Cross Ram now that it looks to be a go. I have been spending a lot of time over the last few days doing some mock-ups. I have been making runners out of stiff paper to see how everything would fit and still be able to close the hood of my Trans Am.

One thing that has come out of this is that in order to clear the distributor and have enough room to install it there will be no taper on the sides of the runners. As to how much taper I can have on the top and bottom walls of the runners will be determined by the injector rail height. That will determine how low I can make the plenum and the final height of the plenum. With that dimension in hand I will know how tall the plenum can be and how tall I can make the runners. I will be using .312" radius bells on the ends of the runners and will need ample clearance for those. I noticed that is what radius FAST is using on their LS3 runners.

So the first order of business will be to install new injector bungs. I took the factory intake over to get sand blasted. After that is done I will take the intake base over to the welder and get the ports extend on the face to the head. I need the weld to cover a Felpro 1206 intake gasket. Once that is done the injector bungs can be installed.

I went over to my friend Pat's place this morning to put the intake on the 383 motor he is building up. It has virtually the exact same heads I am using and one of the things I wanted to see was how the injector angle fit into the scheme of things in case I want to change it. For sure the injectors will be moving out about .125". I also wanted to check the angles of the roof and floor versus the intake mounting surface. I will have the initial inch or so into the intake base pretty well match the heads and then make the transition to the new runner extrusions. I don't know the final angle there until the injector runner is in place.

By mocking things up the runners will be offset about 13 degrees from the face of the base because of the way the SBC ports line up. One interesting thing I notice from this morning is with that angle you will be able look right in and see the intake valves on ports 1 & 5 and 4 & 8.

The Holley Stealth Ram is not a bad intake system. The runners on it are 7" long and mine will be 9.75" long. This will allow me to take full advantage of the 3rd harmonic wave around the 6500-6600 rpm mark. I will also have a little more mass air in the runners for more of a ram effect. Also the runners on the Cross Ram will be straighter and have more cross sectional area. I am hoping that the Cross Ram will support up to 600HP and I can make 550HP+ from it. The construction of this will follow the Stealth Ram but with a plenum similiar to a Super Ram. I will have to make my own plenum as the one from the Super Ram will not work.

So stay tuned as this will take awhile to do.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Need pics or diagrams

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

subscribing

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here are some pictures of the Holley Stealthram, SLP T-Ram and a SuperRam plenum. The runners at the cross over point will be in a line(4) with each pair going to the opposite side. If you can imagine a SuperRam plenum sitting on top of the Holley Stealthram base you will be pretty close. The plenum will not be quite as wide as a SuperRam. A very small portion of each runner will extend into the plenum area. Mainly the bellmouth portion. The plenum floor will be about a 1/4" below the bellmouth. To get everything to fit there is not much choice in the design. It will be what it will be. I threw in a SLP T-Ram picture as another similiar type of outside design.

Edit. One thing I noticed on these intake systems is the angle of the injector. They are virtually verticle. I was checking the stock injector location this morning thinking they were aimed at the back of the intake valve. They are actually aimed at the port floor just behind the valve location. Maybe it is not a good idea with a batch fire system to spray into an open valve. Just wondering.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Kinda like the old ford foxbody 5.0 intakes. Your using another idea I wanted to do! lol I'm sure gald someone is doing it !!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=TTOP350;5198289]Kinda like the old ford foxbody 5.0 intakes. Your using another idea I wanted to do! lol I'm sure gald someone is doing it !!!

Yeah, if one was to cut about 2 inches off that intake that is close to what mine would look like at that point. By the way I am going to have to cut the runner side walls of the extrusion down to .060" for everything to fit. It is tight. The inside width of the runner will be 1.28". The inside runner height is yet to be finalized but will be around 2.2". The corner radii will be .3125", same as on the FAST LS3 runners.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I did not see the top picture at first. But that is very close except the runner offsets will be in pairs instead of alternating like the one shown. Very good. But they will continue off to their perspective sides in a staight line and not turn up like the Ford unit.

Like I said in post 1 I want to have the ends of the runners a close to the top of the injector fuel rail as I can. That will give me the straightest shot posible into the head and the tallest plenum. I think you guys are visualizing what I am doing.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I'm just trying to give Ideas to the crowd..
here is another. There is one I'm looking for and cant find it... yet

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I found this dual quad Smokey Yunick cross ram on Ebay. The runners themselves look very similiar to what I will be doing. This design is from the 1969 racing Camaro. So the basic design is over 40 years old. I am just going to update it and use EFI.

BadSS

Over the last year or so,,, I’ve been eyeballing this intake. It’s fairly reasonably priced as a carb intake at $567,,, not sure how much they charge for adding injector bunges though. I don’t know if this is something you'd consider - the runners have a little curve/turn to them. Anyway, thought I'd throw it out there to see if it could save you some fabrication time/money.



Here's a link to their online store,,, it's not on their main website
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...Category_Code=

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'd love to take something like that, and build a small plenum on each side, with a small throttle body on each side as well, very similar to how the first gen Viper motors were.

ASE doc

That intake base looks like it has good CSA in the runners and could be ported and polished fairly easily. No injector bungs. Must be intended for Webers or TBIs. Still a good basic design.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Or to simplify things, use one throttle body in the front middle with kind of a Y pipe going to a dual outer plenum that feeds each runner.
I think the 4th gen V6 intake is similar to what I'm trying to say.

Or like this ford mod motor intake.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

One of the criteria for me is passing California smog. So I have to fit in an EGR. With my setup each set of four runners will be 5.60" wide. So there is just enough room left with a squeeze fit to put an EGR in the middle. There will be no daylight left. Also remember you have to have room to install the injectors and fuel rails. There has to be room enough to slide them down into the bungs. That is why I am having the two piece construction like on the Holley Stealth Ram. Also it eases the installation the distributor.

Now for those that don't have to deal with California smog then you will have an easier time of it. Some very interesting pictures have been posted for ideas. Kevin I would love to see you finish off your First intake setup. You have put so much effort into it already.

The manifold is currently being sand blasted. I will pick it up this afternoon and take it over to the welder and extend the flanges out to accept a Felpro 1206 intake gasket and the new injector bungs. I am moving the injectors out about .125".

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

This is probably where the idea of the Super ram came from. Just add injectors, EGR, 85-92 throttle body and there you go.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

99 Cobra R intake


Here is a shot of the intake on the car. notice the idle air motor on the side on the intake? Ford picked up 10hp (on accident) when they extended the plenum farther..

BadSS

I hear you. I finally have the projects at work to a point I'm not working all day and night,,, and weekends also. So,,, it looks like I'm going to be able to start back working on it. I've found a guy that's willing to weld up the creases in the FIRST's runners so I can semi-siamese them. I'm relatively sure it will do exactly what I think it will do,, but I'm going to go ahead and get the Brodix HVH single plane intake I have converted to EFI as a back up - just in case. 1550cfm t/b and 500HP worth of nitrous should do it - lol.

Good luck with your intake projects,, although as well planned as they are, I doubt you'll need any technical luck - only inspection luck at the emmissions station.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"99 Cobra R intake"

Interesting how close the bellmouths will be to the side of the plenum when it is installed. Obviously that setup wanted more plenum volume.

Kevin, that is indeed good news. Looking forward to the results. I got quotes of $3000 to make cast runners. The molds of course are the expensive portion the runners themselves would be real cheap. The extrude material I am using is only $100 for 6'.

Update: Intake base is over at the welder. Should have it back tomorrow. So money is being spent and things are moving forward.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

With my rectangular ports butted together in pairs I will not be able to have a bell in the center divider. I was looking for pictures of examples I have seen before but could not find them. I did run across this one though. It is a group of four and mine will be in groups of two. So it would somewhat like the two end ones stuck together.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Okay, things are starting to happen with the TPI Cross Ram project. The runner material arrived today. I also made up a dummy injector bung for the new injector placement. It is the white cylinder in the picture. The injectors are going to move somewhat. I just have to figure out how much and if there will be a new angle. Here is a picture of the end of the material which is 6' long. It was actually made up with the LS3 motor in mind. However it will work just fine for what I am doing with some adjustments.

Update: The drawing From Ross Racing Machine shows the extrusion with a .375" radius in the corners. Well my piece has .250" radius in the corners. The other dimensions are the same as the drawing. I guess this just means I have a little more cross sectional area than I thought I would have. For comparison the white plastic bung in the picture is .750" in diameter with of course a .375" radius. You can compare the two in the picture

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Got the intake base back from the welder. We made sure there was plenty of weld to open it up to a 1206 intake manifold gasket. Next is off to the machine shop. Here are couple of pictures.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You are missing some runner on that manifold

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hey Orr, good eye. That is just the beginning for those that do not know.

ASE doc

From the sound of it, I don't expect to see much left of that base but the gasket flanges and front and rear end seals in the finished product.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

ASE Doc you are pretty close. The front water passages, the area around the injector bosses, the valley plate area and the area back by the distributor will be all of the factory casting that will remain. Everthing else will be new.

I have settled on using the Holley Stealth Ram fuel rail setup. I will incorporate the GM factory fuel pressure regulator as this will be easy enough to do. Today a did a full scale drawing of the injectors (both sides end view) in the vertical position as I wanted to see how tall everything will be with the fuel rails. By the way this is how Holley mounts their injectors along with some others.

This really turned out well so I went ahead and drew in the extruded runners with the bellmouths. I will have more room than I thought and will be able to easily keep the overall height from the base "china wall surface" to 9" at the top of the plenum. I will now probably go to a .375" radius in the bell mouth area. I am really jazzed how this project is going to turn out.

As I said before I went over to a friends house and measured the floor angles on his AFR heads. Turns out the top and bottom are slightly different. I am going to use the roof angle and go from there. I will match it with the base to right behind the injector and then the extruded runner will angle up about 2 degrees. This will give me more room to play with instead of going straight with the extrusion. If I went straight things would be tight at the top of the fuel rail area. So the 2 degree angle which in the scheme of things is very little helps out. The extrusion will be up 2 degrees and over 13 degrees so when the pairs of runners cross they will miss each other.

Edit: I forgot to say that the SuperRam plenum is about 13.75" wide. I will be able to do 12" wide easily with plenty of room for the bellmouths. This will help in clearing the windshield wiper motor assembly. Plus my plenum will be deeper so there should be plenty of plenum volume.

2nd update: I just realized I have enough room in the plenum to add some taper back in to the runners. I took it out thinking I would not have the room. This thing just keeps getting better and better. It has me all fired up. Hahahaha.

gbayfisher

I'm just as excited reading this thread as you are building the piece!
looking forward to every update, and the end result.
keep up the good work

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of updates on the project. One is I ordered the Holley fuel rail setup and should have it in hand Thursday or Friday. I used the factory rails to get and ideal of the height I will be dealing with. I don't think the Holley version will be much different. So once I have the Holley fuel rails in hand I can finalize that dimension.

I have been doing some drawings on how all this is going to go together. I decided to go ahead and post one of them. I think things will be pretty much as shown in the drawing except I might raise the runners another degree. I also might tilt the angle of the injectors a few degrees. So thing will move some but not to much. The paper is 12" wide and that is the planned width of the plenum. The Super Ram is 13.75" wide.

The drawing does have taper in the runners. PipeMax says I should have a plenum entrance of 3.029 inch squared so that is what I am shooting for. The bellmouth entrances are shown with a .375" radius. It is 9.00" from the base of the intake manifold to the top of the plenum. There will be some material subtraction but there is plenty of room. Here is the picture.

One more thing. The top line of the runner under the injector is at the same angle as the head. So that part is a straight shot into the head. Just past the injector is where the extrusion starts and is angled up at that point a couple of degrees. I may got up a half or one full degree more. We shall see.

Long Beach Z-28

iTrader: (1)

1989 GTA,

Lets start thinking about specing out another cam for the dyno sessions, I'm thinking that we will need a few more degrees to take advantage of this new Cross-Ram intake. Since its gonna be a cam for the dyno tests only, lets get really aggressive with the .020" lift numbers too

What the heck, valve springs and lifters are pretty cheap!

You gonna be around this Friday? Let me know.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Pat

Should be around Friday. Let me know. What would be ideal is to have a camshaft for your 383 that peaks around 6500rpm. That would coincide perfectly with the Crossram. Maybe something around 236 degrees on the intake with a total lift around .600" with 1.6 rocker arms or even 1.65 rocker arms on the intake side of things. Probably would need 36# injectors. I don't know how radical you want to go. Hahahaha

Guys what we are talking about is using Pat's 383 motor to check out my Cross Ram on the engine dyno. His motor is new so it will need to be broken in and checked out. It will certainly be a good test to see how well the TPI Cross Ram will perform.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If emissions wasnt a concern.... jones 240/243 on a 108 sounds good. Think near .600" but I'd like to see more. Thats what he spec'd for my 383 back in the day but I went turbo instead.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Orr, something along those lines would work. Pat had a 238 degree cam from Jones but the distributor lobe went bad. That would have worked. By the way Pat has my old AFR 195 Competition heads and had Dr J work them over. They now are virtually like the heads I have on my car. They do not require much in the way of exhaust duration. So a single pattern or maybe up to 4 degrees extra on the exhaust would do.

Long Beach Z-28

iTrader: (1)

How ya been ORR? Hope TX is treating you well. I would not be concerned at all about emissions with this cam. Like I told Allen, we could use this new cam just for testing on the engine dyno. When we get around to putting the 383 in a car, we could just use one of the tried and true COMP XFI 280 cams that will pass the CA sniffer test,

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

TX has been pretty good, but I'm actually moving back to PA. Tranfering job positions so its back to the home base where I wanted to be. More time to work on my projects

280xfi is a proven cam thats for sure but it seems to be all done around 400whp +/- 10 hp or so. Should be on the plus side of 400 with good heads and 383. I'd be more tempted to try the 292 XFI. The 280 wont peak much above 6000 rpm in a 383 I dont think. Its great in a 355 for mid 6000's but a 383 with that long stroke eats up the duration a good bit.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I ran across the Ford Boss 302 intake. It is somewhat along the lines of what I am doing, so hopefully we are on the right track with this design. I have not ran across a picture of the interior so I do not know what the runner openings are like in the plenum. Here is a picture of the Boss 302 intake. Pat has a 242 @ .050" camshaft with .600" lift on the intake we will use on his 383 for the engine dyno test of the TPI Cross Ram. That should work ok and save us some money.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Progress report: The Holley Stealth Ram fuel rail kit arrived today. It confirms that the height of the fuel rail is correct as shown in my drawing as posted above in post 27. There are some dimensional differences from the factory unit but when all added up it came out the same. The factory unit uses clips to hold the injectors in place. I was wondering whichmethod Holley would use. Well they have a counter bore if you will at the top of where the injector goes so it can only go into the fuel rail so far. That is also one of the dimensional changes.

As shown in the picture I will use the factory fuel regulator. It will go just about as shown in the picture but turned a little. I will plug and weld shut the one side and only use one inlet and the outlet. So with a couple of mods it will work just fine. I am going to angle the injectors over around 5 degrees. I will also follow the Holley system for the fuel feed. I will run the feed line to the passenger side rail at the rear, cross over at the front of the passenger side rail to the drivers side rail, the fuel regulator will be at the end of the drivers side fuel rail and the return line will go back up to the front from the regulator. This way I can use a lot of the factory lines.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Jon Schmidt on Speed Talk mocked up my intake with a CAD drawing. In my case our small cap distibutor will clear but just barely. Here is the CAD drawing and it might give some a better idea on what is going on with the TPI Cross Ram.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Some progress is being made on the TPI Cross Ram project. The Aluminum extrude runners are under constrution. I had the manifold injector area welded up for the new placement of the injectors and widening of the ports in that area to accept the new cross sectional area. Here is a picture showing the progress of the base.

gregs78cam

I like where you are going with this, I was thinking of something similar, but as I started to model it, I just didn't like the way mine was starting to look. so I decided to model one after the RAMJET 502 intake. I am very happy with the injector angle now, points right at the valve. I am still working on the drawings for having the straight portion of the runners made on a CNC forming machine. I haven't decided yet if I will bell the runners or blend them into the plenum. I don't have to pass emissions but I had also thought about adding EGR from the crossover. Like you said, plenty of room.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That is another interesting concept. With the curvature of the plenum walls in your design maybe the raised bellmouth would work the best.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I like that a lot.
It would be great If it was a LSX type plastic with aluminum water and Tstat pasages and a TPI- LT1 T-body.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Here is one I saw before, just to thro more ideas out there.

ASE doc

Hope you don't mind some constructive criticism. Looking at the angle of your runners where they will meet the cylinder head, I see almost a 70 degree difference between the runner exit and the intake port of the head. I would think it best to reduce this angle as much as possible. One of the key advantages with the cross ram concept is the natural reduction of this angle.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"One of the key advantages with the cross ram concept is the natural reduction of this angle."

Yep, the one I am building is initially lined up perfectly with the top roof angle of the head and after about an inch plus it changes to maybe a 2 degree angle up.

I plan on doing the same with the bottom floor but it will change a little more rapidly to fit the floor extruded runner.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here is a concept design being done by someone here locally in SoCal. Of couse with this type you can forget the EGR. However that would not matter to some.

ASE doc

That looks more like the design of the cast unit we've seen pictured on this thread. One advantage I see with this concept is the equal spacing of the runner entries. This will have a positive effect on air flow in the plenum. I would think you would want to equalize runner lengths though for even cylinder filling.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I would think you would want to equalize runner lengths though for even cylinder filling."

Also if you wanted the harmonic tuning to come in at the same rpm. The way it is drawn the runners will differ somewhat as to the tune peak rpms.

I guess with a SBC that has a distributor and water neck there is only so much you can do with a cross ram. They appear to be variations of the same theme including mine. However I have to camouflage mine for the smog techs and add in an EGR.

1bad91Z

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Morbidly curious... subbed!

1989GTATransAm

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Going to take the base over to the welder tomorrow and get the areas around the injector bungs welded up. Also going to add another .125" of weld to the sides of the runners in the injector bung area. Things look like of messy at this point but I don't want to remove to much material just yet. As you can see I will be doing one half at a time. Here is a progress picture.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hows the manifold handling the heat of welding? Any worry of manifold warping?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

So far so good and yes it is always a worry. You will notice the aluminum bar stock bolted to the intake manifold flanges. Hopefully this will help in keeping things straight. My welder preheats the manifold in an oven before welding and lets it cool down gradually in the same oven.