I have an '87 350, tpi, auto, 2.73s.
Some of these mods I've already installed and some I'm about to order.

Full tune up- 8mm wires, plugs, coil, etc.
AIR pump removed.
Full K&N CAI, airfoil, tbb, MAF screens removed.
SLP y-pipe, gutted cat, Hooker cat-back.
Increased base timing.
Holley AFPR.
Ported plenum, AS&M LT runners, Edelbrock base.

What else do I need to get into the 13s? I haven't been able to take my car to the track yet.

P.S.-I know my biggest restricions are still the gears, heads, cam, exhaust manifolds, and TC. But I don't wanna change these until I have to. (except maybe switching to 3.42s or 3.23s)

Thanks a lot.

Well, In that list of stuff you don't feel like getting into yet.. lies the answer.

Take it to the track and run it as it stands, You should be deep into the 14's.

Drop the gears to 3.42's. Anything more and your revving out of your TPI's powerband at the end of the 1320.

Pick up the SLP headers, and you will rip into the 13's for sure.

The stock TC could also be replaced with something like a vig 27-3000, Wich would grab you a good few tenths.

But, You should be able to bolt headers and 3.42's onto that combo you have now, and providing its Running well and In good shape, Run high 13's all day long.

You might want to think about DIY PROM tuning, if your into going fast on the cheap Alot of potential to be unlocked and it is key to making any combo, weather mild or wild, Run to its fullest.

Dont ignore traction and suspension

I really like my stage 2 shift kit. Think it was worth .1-.2 in the 1/4

I cheated. I just bought a ZZ4 and threw a bottle on it and go high 12's all day long. Untill the bottle runs out. Then she'll pull mid 13's.

Of course, But he should be able to Laucnh into the high 13's with the stock rear suspension just fine.

being "ABLE" to is one thing, but he could drop some time with LCA's & Relocation Brackets

Yes I forgot. Definately some decent tires and LCAs w/ relocation brackets. Subframe connnectors too.

My big decision right now is that SLP y-pipe. I know just the pipe is not near as good as having headers. But I can get the pipe from a friend for $120, and I don't have to install headers or deal with leaks and all that heat. I don't think that y-pipe will bolt up to headers if I decide to get them in the future, it's just for the stock manifolds.

Tough decisions.

Thanks again.

I'd worry about what my car ran now before i set a plan into motion myself. And if you're immediate goal is to run 13s with as little as possible, your current plan leaves a lot to be desired. For example, runners and base are gonna be next to useless on a stock heads/cam car. I'd spend the money on SLP headers and an S10 torque converter. Or a vigilante, siamese the stock base and grab that SLP y-pipe. As a matter of fact, if you can drive, the latter combo should / would be good for easy 13s all day long behind a good running L98 car.
Then again, what do i know. I set out as trying for 13s in a heavier car with a smaller engine Give me a week....

the stock gears will hold you back a lot. try finding a used rear in a junkyard for a few hundreds bucks. make sure it is the 3.42 posi rear. you can add all sorts or parts but in reality, the motor will turn faster with steeper gears. its like a bike, try starting in high gear on a 10 spd bike. its hard to start off. you are the motor moving the bike. now start off in the big gear. its a lot easier and less strenuos(sp) on your legs. there is no point in adding a TC to a 2.73 open rear. maybe you can score a posi rear with disc too.

you can get into the 13's without changing heads and cam too. suspension plays a big role as well. also good driving skills will hel you. how many miles are on your car?

Not that a mild rear wouldn't help him, i will strongly disagree with your assessment of not being a point to putting a converter in front of 2.73s. If given the choice between a nice converter like my vig and 2.73s, or a cheap/stock converter and 3.42s (or ANY gear for that matter) i would absolutely pick the vig / 2.73s. Funny thing is, i was always kind of skeptical of that statement myself, but instead of talking trash and guessing, i BOUGHT one, tested it, and am now a believer. It takes a leap of faith, but once you have one, it's the only way to leave the line. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
And there's more to gears than mechanical advantage. Like with short gears you shift into third at a lower MPH, thus you spend less time utilizing the mechanical advantage of second gear as you push third down the track. A taller gear would let you ride second longer, thus accelerating harder in the MPH between when the short and tall gear ends. The same thing happens in first gear as well. Those 2 windows between MPH at shift can add into some ET for you.
Also don't forget that gears don't affect recovery RPM, a big concern in our 700r4 with it's big gear ratio drop on shifts. A TPI car shifting at 5k will drop to practically 3k on the 1-2 shift, bogging it out of the powerband. With a converter it will only drop to 3500 or more, allowing you to stay in your powerband, and also enjoy more torque multiplication as you recover from the shifts.

Sorry, i know thats a bunch of jumbled concepts. I just wanted to make the point that gears are far from the universal mod they once were IMO. All they have going for them is mechanical advantage, but they bring a heavy penalty of reduced time in gear. A converter has many advantages over gears. True a converter can't make up for a big mismatch in powerband and 1/4 MPH (like if you have a 7k rpm turning screamer, yeah, 2.73s are a little non-ideal, lol), but when you're talking about a very much in the ballpark match of MPH and powerband (did anybody do te math and realize that 100mph = ~4k rpms in a 26" tire car, i.e. right in the fat spot of TPI power), a converter will be a bigger bang for the buck. So far, all the facts i've seen support this, and like i said, i'm adding to the cause myself.

Yes. That is a bunch of jumbled concepts. You guys are throwing me for a loop, and just when I thought I was starting to get this figured out.

See I had my trans rebuilt about a year ago and it felt a lot different when I got it back. (like it's got a different convertor) I don't know what though for sure.

And I sort of like my 2.73s. I don't really wanna rev higher when I'm cruizing down the interstate. And I don't mind my gas mileage either. Added to that all the issues you just stated.

And I still don't wanna get headers any time soon, especially when they aren't exactly cheap

The ported plenum/runners/base I'm only gonna get because I found someone who wants to sell them for $500.

Maybe I should look into PROM burning and 24# injectors, but I doubt those things will help much either on a basically stock motor.

I'm still stuck.

Take that 500$ You were going to spend On The intake, there's your SLP headers Right there.

And Ed is exactly right when it comes to Gears. They arent the easy one size fits all ET reducers that everyone thinks.

Ideally, You would cross the trap At just past your Peak Power.

Ed's aregument of a Converter w/ ****ty gears Is On target, Too.

The Converter keeps the Car In the powerband, Regardles of Gear.

The Gear's are another way of Getting the car Into the powerband faster, but also getting out of it, faster.

All gear does is Give you, Like ed Said, mech advantage.. more Torque multiplication Sort of.

Say you have a Motor Makeing 100 ft/lbs at 1000 RPm, and a 2.73 Gear out back... In 3rdgear On your 700r4 Wich is 1:1 ( for simplicity sake

Your putting 100 ft lbs x 2.73 = 273 ft lbs to the ground.

Now take a differnt Motor, Putting out 79 ft lbs at 100 rpm

With 3.42 gears behind that motor, Your still putting 3.42 * 79 = 273 ft lbs to the ground. Instantanious acceleration at that point is going to be the Same.

the Motor With More gear is going to Wind up faster, Run through its powerband faster, and Be overall Finished and Done with Before the 2.73 Geared Motor, each putting the same amount of power to the ground.

In a 1/4 Mile, as Long as you Make sure your Not peaking out of your powerband by the trap, You will Go faster with deeper gear.

You get more torque to the ground for the Torque your engine actually puts out.

thing is, Our torque curves arent Flat, So its not all that simple.

If you only make power from 3k-6k, Then You need to get the motor spun to 3k as fast as possible, and keep it there.

Like in ed's example, If your L98 Shifts 1-2 and drops to 3k Flat out of its powerband, then Your gonna bog a bit untill the Motor Climbs back Up. Gear's can help this sure, But its still going to be a relative lack Of power, compared to the rest of the powerband.

With a Converter, Your Motor never hits the 3k mark, because the converter lets it keep spinning a 3.5k, wich is right in your powerband.

So obviously, the best combination is Gears And Coverter. But If its one or the other, Im Inclined to belive ed that a Well built converter wich Keeps your motor In the powerband all the time, is going to net you better results than a marginal gear change wich just whips you through all RPM faster.

that was a bit convoluted I know... I hope some of it makes sense.

I hear you, there's a million ways to go here for you. You need to decide how fast you want to go, and how you want to get there yourself though. Since your immediate goal seems to be 13s, and you also like your gears, your immediate solution IMO is a nice converter. But a vigilante is over $700. Nobody said going fast was cheap. Of course, i guarantee that if you spend 750 on a vig, or spend 500 on the intake and the rest on little stuff, the vig combo would be quicker.
But, $500 is a great deal on those parts. If you're planning on getting into heads and more down the road, then they'll be useful so you might as well not pass the bargain. Then again, by the time you want to go fast you might want to ditch LTR TPI altogether and run a stealth / mini ram.
lol, even when i try to straighten things out they get confusing. It's just that there really are a million ways to look at the situation, BUT if you always are working towards a goal or vision, it's easy to stay on track. Your problem is that you're just thinking, i dunno, i wanna go faster, but you're not givinga clear budget or end goal.
For example my end goal was to be able to get kicked out of any track for running 13s in my vert. So i kept things simple and looked for the right bargains to get me there. I'm basically done buying parts for my car for the immediate future and i still have a lower intake to finish and install. And then tune it. In the meantime i'm going to have a sit down with myself and really decide what i'm going to do with it. I may just wait till the 305 pops and put a complete nothing special 350 in and keep it a lo 13 second cruiser. Then again, paint and bodywork are on the boards, so a cage may be in the works. Then i'll be spraying this mill till it bleeds, ideally culminating in a blaze of glory at an NFRA event right next to an ARE motor doing the same in the next lane (note the 'next to' part, and i'm still talking about a 305)
And then i'd still be faced with a choice as to whether to build a serious mill, cuz i ain't putting an 12 point in my vert for 11s.
See how this stuff snowballs. And some would consider the above a 'cohesive' plan.

Now you're making sense. Sure some day I will probably wanna put in a cam and heads, but the reality is that I'm a college student commuting an hour and a half to school every couple weeks.

I guess I don't know enough about torque convertors yet to make that decision. This is gonna sound dumb but a higher stall just makes it so right after you upshift your rpms drop from redline to about 3500 instead of 2500? (just an example) Would this be with a 3500 stall then? Is Vigilante the only way to go? What stall speed would I want, if I am going to upgrade to 3.42s ro 3.23s some time in the future? I know I know, I need to do a search, but I thought I'd ask while we're on the subject here.

ROTFLMAO

ARE - The track Lubricator.

btw, To Like ed said, a Goal is important.

My Goal was to take this pig 305 Into the 13's.

Almost there. Im actually over realizing my goal Because Im going to hit 13's Without even touching the Converter. I imagine with a Solid Vig I will be hitting 13.7ish Timeslips.

Not bad for a 180k, daily driven, 23mpg, Carburated, Full weight 305.

Oh yeah, my actual goal isn't really to run 13s, it's to be able to atleest run with or beat LT1 fbodies. And most of them with light mods seem to be running high mid to high 13s. So basically my goal is to run 13s

A Higher Stall is sort of a hard concept to grasp for alot of people.

The Torque Converter Slips. on purpose. Its sort of like a clutch, But then again, not really.

If you have a 3500 RPM flash stall, that means that Your converter will basically let the engine wind up to 3500 Before It ( the converter ) stops slipping, and actually transfers power To the Wheels.


That sounds like a bad thing, It isnt.

What it means, Is that If your powerband dosent start untill 3500, You don't waste time from 2800-3500 trying to wind the engine up with the load of the car on it, It just blips up No problem to 3500 with the relatively minute load of the converter.

Then when It hits 3500, the converter stops slipping, and the Engine picks up the load of the car, But thats okay, because now your making Power enough to Move it.


Get it? I don't blame you If You don't.... took me a while.

An overly simplistic way to think of it, is some sort of Auto-Clutch that dosent Engage Untill 3500 RPM.

Of course this is only under WOT. at part throttle you can drive around semi-normally. At least, with a High Quality converter Like a Vig.

Get a vigilante torque converter. It is about a $700 modification but it will be the biggest ET reducer you can purchase right now. I recommend something in the 2600-2800 range. That will have you smiling from the timeslip booth to the pits. And the LT1's sitting at the stop light.

I think I understand you very well. Thanks a lot. I'm still not sure which stall would be correct for my application though. Too small of a difference will yeild poor gains and too big of a difference and it could be a pain to drive at part throttle, especially on ice or snow. Thanks again everyone.

oops, you posted right before me. thanks though.

I'm with stupid.

And there you have it....

To confuse the matter more... if you go with a 2800 stall on your 305, when you swap to a 350 or something that puts out more torque, that same converter will stall higher (eg- 3200rpms).

Vig. is the best brand IMO for the 3rd gen... :hail:

Admittedly it does provide a big gain in available power, however available is the key word. If you take it easy it's not going to spin wins really bad. Since the converter isn't giving any torque multiplication at light throttle it'll work better than gears in the same situation. It also mildly softens shifts, especially at part throttle where most of your driving is.
A 2600-2800 rpm vigilante would be about perfect for a stock L98, and they are very well matched to the combination. My converter does exactly what i expect it to do. And even apparently flashing around 3k, i can drive at part throttle in the 2k-2.5k range and be accelerating faster than needed. And once you're cruising the converter clutch kicks in so real mileage and driveability isn't affected.
It's not for the weak of heart. This is for people that really are trying to go fast, it just happens to also be very driveable.

I've seen them many times for sale used for around $400-$500. Is it wise to buy a used one as long as there aren't too many miles on it? Is the Vigilante TC for a 4L60E the same one as for the 700R4? What's the flash speed for a stock convertor? Thanks again.

Im not positive but I think the stock one is absurd like 1400 or 1500 or something. Someone correct me if Im wrong, it is something I seem to remember from quite a while back.

It might be as much as 1600, but I think that might be pushing it.

As for your plan (which I didnt get to read all of earlier) forget the base and runners, you wont need them. Instead, just port the base and pay attention to the transitions from one part to the next, much improvement can be made there. You might consider siamesing the intake base, something I am going to do to a 305 car here fairly soon and then to a stock 350 at a later date, just to see what sorta results I get. Take the EGR walls down, put some headers on the car and you should be close if not already into the 13's. The converter will help but can wait until later, until you really want to take care of those pesky LT1's.

As for buying one used, there are somethings to consider.

Ideally you want one off of a living transmission. If the transmission died with the converter on it, then the converter could be filled with debris that got into the fluids when the clutches or whetever let go. However, even if the person says their tranny was alive, you have to be able to trust them that they're not lying.
Of course, even if you pull one off a living tranny, ideally you would want to get it professionally cleaned anyway. If you're really lucky, the previous owner might not have used their free stall change. This is an absolutely perfect situation since you could get them to send teh converter back to precision and have it cleaned and have the stall changed for YOU before it gets sent to you.
As for 4L60E vs 700r4 (no E), AFAIK the LT1s take the same converter. LS1s definitely take a different one though.