I was having trouble finding info via search and I didn't see it in the stickies.

First, I live in California so the smog laws are extrememly strict. I have a 92RS 305TBI and I want to swap either an LS1 or and LT1(more probable). I just talked to the owner if a automotive shop and he said you can only but the same size engine in my car (he said I could probably put in a 350 as long as I kept everything else visible stock).

Now, if swapping the motor is out of the question legally, can I at least change to TPI?

For those of you who've done similar things and live in CA, what are your experiences?

 

It is not out of the question, at all.

You can swap practically any NEWER engine into a car. You'll have to go through the "referree" process if it's not an engine that came in the car, which would include things like LT1 or LS1. It will have to meet the emissions specs for the year of the engine, NOT the year of the car; and it will have to have all devices and controls and so forth that go with the engine, again, NOT the car.

When I lived in Carlsbad I knew somebody in Temecula that used to put LT1s and LS1s in older Jaguars, and didn't have any trouble getting them legally smogged; so it can be done, if you follow the rules. But - ANY deviation from the rules, will probably not be tolerated; so be prepared to do it right, in detail, because your work WILL BE checked.

I would not recommend going to all that trouble for TPI. Too much maze, no cheese at the end.

 

Sooooo true, well put.

I've never lived in CA, but what RB says sounds about the same as what Ive heard others say. Basically, you cannot install an engine in your car if its older than the car (ie. '92 Camaro, '79 350) but basically any newer car engine can be swapped in.

IIRC, you cannot use a truck engine (ie. SS454 motor, or a Vortec 350 or something) because trucks use different emitions laws from cars.

 

You can do it, but its not an easy process. Not only do you need to show the referee the new engine is more efficient or environmentally friendly than the old one, but you also must have a reason for the swap. Yes, the reason can be made up b/s, but still, its another hoop to jump through -- and ultimately the decision rests on that particular referees shoulders. If he's having a bad day, doesnt like the way you look, or just has it out for thirdgenners . . guess what ? no dice.

Easier to just build up a 5.7L 350 SBC and add a turbo or nos -- prolly a lot cheaper too.

I went from one extreme to the other, and eventually ended up with a new N/A 355 -- im quite happy with it, and not a single problem when I took it down for smog.

 

Only problem with that is that he will 'technically' have to find a '92 or newer 350 block from a car. In that case, it might be easier just to swap to an LT1, which is basically a '93+ 350.

 

From what I've been hearing, the smog ref is someone to be avoided if at all possible. One of many reasons being, that he needs to check off your car for each smog test in addition to the initial one. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that, it's just something that I read that was posted here.
That would make it especially difficult for someone who wanted to make a HP car out of a TBI, unfortunately.
My suggestion is to browse the boards dilligently, do a lot of searches, be patient. There are solutions.
When I first started looking for HP TBI parts, the parts stores all told me that the only parts I'd be able to use were a set of underdrive pulleys, some TES headers and maybe an Edelbrock 50 state legal cam. I've since learned that there are more options than that.
You have to dig though.

Good Luck

 

Thanks this is some great information.

So depeding on the 'ref' I may or may not be able to swap a newer, cleaner engine in my car. At least it CAN be legal. Who is the smog ref though? Is it someone that ok's my car before I swap engines and tells me it will be okay to do the swap? Or is it the person who ok's the engine AFTER the swap when I take it to get smogged?


LT1's and LS1's are newer, and those are my first choices. Someone mentioned that I should just build up a 5.7 L though because it would be cheaper (maybe easier too?). Would a crate engine satisfy the smog stuff just as well as an LT1/LS1? My brother put a crate engine in his 68 Camaro, but he didn't have to smog it. Does the engine have to be NEWER, ie, made after 1992, or just a newer STYLE engine (because aren't a lot of crate engines old styled and made for old cars)?

I hope I'm not being too confusing... but then again, smog laws are!

 

double post, sorry

 

The ref inspects and signs off your car after a swap is completed. But you should make an appt and talk to him beforehand. The DMV can give you the #.
The info that the ref will give you will be "to the letter of the law", but there's a lot he won't tell you. Something that's to the advantage of chevy enthusaists is that small blocks all look alike, and that makes it possible to fudge a little on the visual part of the test.
Is your car already registered to you?
When is your next test?
If you can avoid the ref it makes things simpler. The ref is a professional who is paid to go over an engine with a fine toothed comb, the guys at the smog stations aren't as picky.
For example if your performance expectations weren't all that high, and you were willing to keep the TBI on your car, you could avoid the ref cause it wouldn't be a swap.
You could bore + stroke the 305 and still keep the TBI and probably pass if you knew how to tune it and kept the cam pretty small. But a TBI is the least desirable intake system, unfortunately.
So much of it depends upon your mechanical resources, it's hard to suggest anything other than to search and see what other Ca guys are doing. And talk to the ref too.

 

Hmm... a '68 Camaro wouldn't be smog checked with any engine would it?

Anyway, IIRC, the engine only has to be the same or newer than the car it is going into.

 

Don't forget, if you have a Camaro or Firebird (later than '85)you can install a TPI (even a 350) and not have to go to a referee.
These cars came with that option and therefor are legal in all respects(properly done). I speak from experience having done several of them. I also have done an '87 El Camino and a '77 truck and when they are done at the referee station they attach a bar label and that is what the test station uses after that for the smog check.
And yes, I also had a '92 RS with the swap. Also did a '87 Firebird V-6 to a '87 TPI V-8.

 

If an L98 motor could be swapped in without a ref visit, then that opens a lot of doors.
I just recently learned that the superram is a legal intake. That would be a setup worth looking into for some serious fun.

 

So the ref is someone you take the car to in order to get certified. im guessing he give you some type of certificate or something, and then you can take it to get smogged.

What about crate engines though?

And if you build up your own, how do you prove it's newer than the one in your car?

Is there a list somewhere that tells your what's legal for CA or is it just up to a ref?

 

If you take it to a ref, he can look at the block #s and tell if you're pulling his leg.
There's stuff like the oil dipstick location and a few other things that can give you away if you're trying to put a motor in there that you shouldn't be.
Good news... the late 350 blocks are the ones to get anyhow cause they have the roller feature, and one of those could be substituted without any trouble.
Begin now, doing research and by next year, you'll be prepared to make the right decision.
In a lot of ways, the rules are senseless. Which is understandable when you consider the source. Ultimately, it only means that you have to do some homework before you choose parts. Because if you don't, you can end up with a motor that fails because of some superficial detail like a stupid number cast into the back of the block or the dipstick being on the wrong side.

Crate motors? Some might pass, some might not.

Dyno Don is more experienced with it than I am. Maybe he can explain better.
I just know that if I were doing a swap, I'd make sure that the engine I got was very close to original for the year it was made.

I'm a crummy typist, I'm the wrong guy to be trying to explain this.

 

I've spent a good deal of time researching this topic, as I'll be moving to CA sometime in 2005.

Crate engines are fine - as long as you get basically the same design as what is already in your vehicle. (GM Goodwrench 350 is a pretty safe bet, in your case). You are actually allowed to put in ANY engine that was available in your car or newer with minimal hassles. You can also put in other engines that were NOT available, but it has to be from the same "class" of vehicle (say, a 383 crate engine with a TPI intake and a Procharger - all legal! But you could not use say a '97 305 Vortech out of a Chevy Silverado truck - trucks are a different "class". Likewise, you couldn't put a V8 in something like a Pontiac Fiero that never had anything bigger than a V6, from what I'm told) . But basically you'd be swapping your V8 engine for another V8 engine, so you are staying in the same "class" as long as you don't use a truck engine.

As for the LT1 and LS1 engines, there is no problem swapping to either of those engines either (still a V8 from the same "class," and because they are "newer" (read: more efficient) technology, it is in some ways "desirable" to have. The only problem is the increased cost of the swap.

As was mentioned earlier, all of your emissions equipment has to match the year of the engine, not the car. (Pre '76 vehicles do not need to be smogged, but the minute you put a '76 or newer engine into the car, it has to pass smog/CARB requirements, once again). For my LS1 swap for example, this meant I had to swap to a 4th gen gas tank so I would have all the EVAP equipment, rebuild my exhaust to comply with the necessity of 4 oxygen sensors, have a custom wiring harness made so that all LS1 sensors would be fully functional with my 3rd gen car, etc.

In my case, I'll have to pass inspection on 3 levels:
OBD-II for LS1 (custom wiring harness and 4th gen sensors)
Smog (for LS1s, TR224/224/114lsa and smaller have PROVEN passability)
Visual inspection (biggest thing here is your exhaust - must have visible O2 sensors in place, CA legal headers or else stock manifolds, cats must be in a stock location (although there is a little flexibility here, I've been told that the 3rd gen stock location should be fine, as opposed to the LS1 cats being directly attached to the exhaust manifolds), and basically ANYTHING not stock has to have a C.A.R.B. number to pass.

An excellent source of information is www.smogtips.com

I would suggest narrowing your choices down to 2 or 3 engines, then finding people in CA who have done the EXACT swap you are looking at with the same car you are swapping into. There are always little things that have to be done that you won't know ahead of time until you talk to someone who's run into it, and 3rd gens actually vary a lot from year to year and between models.

Good luck to you,
Adam

 

There are a couple things that Adam didn't mention.
When an LT1 or LS1 is being swapped in, the tranny is controlled by the ecm, so in addition to your gas tank the tranny needs to be included in the swap to be legal.
Or at least that's what I was told.

Another thing is, although there are CARB approved cams, and pistons, and timing chains and such. Anything that's on the inside of your motor doesn't actually need a sticker because they're not going to take apart your motor to see what's in there.
Although they'd like to have you think that they will.
The sniffer test is the part that determines the passability of your internals. That's why, as stated above, a 224* cam will pass.

Hopefully you're starting to get the picture by now.

 

I've had my 91 LS1 Z running with the LS1 in it for just over a year now. I got the ref to sign it off and all that...Just make sure you have all the OBD2 stuff from the engine you're swapping over..For an LS1 you do (4 o2's, 2 cats, air, evap, egr (depending on year), and gas tank w/ pump (bolts in just gotta trim filler neck.) then you get a sticker looks like this after you pass visual and a smog test


It's not very difficult to do the swap, Speartech did my wiring harness which helped a lot as well. There are pics of my car and entire swap on my web-site.

Click here

Good luck,
Brad

 

CobraKilla

I've got a couple (+1) questions for you if you're reading this.

1) The trans is a part of the swap, correct?
By that I mean, leaving the thirdgen trans in there isn't an option for a legal swap.

2) Is it true what I heard about the ref having to re-examine your car periodically?

3) Did you get all your stuff from a single donor car or did you buy it piece by piece?

Thanks

 

Yeah this information is very encouraging!

CobraKiller:


How did the 2 Cat system work? If I get a Cat back system now, will I have to modify it to make the 2 cat system fit?

How hard was it to install the extra sensors and whatnot?

 

I'm not sure if it's illegal to not swap the trans, but you'd be better off just doing it anyway IMO. I used a 6spd out of the donor car.

I'm not sure if the ref has to check out the car each time. I'll be smogging my car in about 2 months so we'll find out.

I got my stuff out of one donor car, yes. If you're looking for that kinda car let me know I know some people who deal with that.

Chomp- You should be able to do a cat-back system now. For the 2 cats you just have to have an exhuast shop make you a custom y-pipe with the cats integrated in it. Here's a pic of mine-



Installing all the smog stuff isn't too bad of a deal, the Speartech harness was really easy to work with and it was all plug and play.

 

Thanks for the offer CobraKilla, I'll certainly keep that in mind.

When I spoke to a ref, I'm 99% sure that he told me the trans has to accompany the engine swap, since the ECM (or PCM) recieves signals from the trans and there are output signals to the trans as well. But when I asked, all my questions were in reference to autos too.
At that point I decided that when/if I do a swap, it will be into a different car than the one I have now. I'll be looking for a 5sp that has a nicer body for that.

Fortunately for me, at least my car is a TPI so there's some potential there if I decide to build on that.

 

For my swap, I'm just using the 2 cats in their original location (my 89 Formula TPI had 2 cats stock, anyway). Just make sure your cats are CARB legal - many are NOT.

 

Okay, because I'd really like to upgrade the exhaust since it's so crappy on my car. So the only changes I'll have to make after a swap would be from the cat forward right (and thus I shouldn't mess with any of that now..)?


By any chance would you know if L03 headers will fit on a LT1 or LS1?

 

No, they will not.

Furthermore, you have to make sure there is a CARB number for any headers you use, as well. The only headers for the LS1 that have CARB #s that I'm aware of are the JBA shorty headers, and the 2000+ stock manifolds have been proven to flow BETTER than those, even before ported.

There ARE rumors that some guys get inspected, THEN put headers on there cars until the two years between required inspections are up, then temporarily swap their stock manifolds and y-pipe back on..................

But of course, those are ONLY rumors...........

 

hmmmm... swapping every two years kinda seems ... not worth it though. well actually, the y-pipe just bolts to the cat right, so you dont have to weld it on every two years...



the hooker headers aren't CARB legal? also, how good are the stock manifolds on 2000+ cars and older than 2000 cars?



lastly, what did your entire swap cost, and what did it include?

 

The ONLY headers that have CARB numbers (and therefore, the only ones legal in CA) are shorty headers. Last time I checked, Hookers were NOT legal. (Unless they've come out with shorties that have a CARB # since last winter).

The stock manifolds on 98-99 LS1 engines flow about the same as a shorty header would. Nothing great, but still better than our 3rd gen stock manifolds did.

2000+ LS1 stock manifolds are actually referred to as the "stock headers" by some, because they actually do look like a shorty header. Independent reviews I've read showed that for CA legal, you won't find anything out there to beat the stock parts for exhaust flow. The only extra trick you can use is to port the lip around the holes, which is a "slight" restriction of exhaust flow. Not sure how much it actually frees up, my guess would be maybe 5 hp or so.

My swap is still ongoing, so I don't have totals for you. This is what I've got so far, though:

* 2001 LS1 engine (from a Z28, came with LS6/Z06 intake manifold stock)
* 1999 T56 6-speed trans (from a TransAm)
* Ported throttlebody from Jantzer
* Tubular K-member from Hawks
*Deciding on whether to port stock heads, or wait till later (may put on a blower once I get to CA, in which case I'll have to re-do the heads and pistons anyway)
* Thunder Racing 224/224 112 lsa Cam (114 lsa is proven sniffer/smog passable in CA, I'm gonna take my chances - I'll change if i have to, but I'll enjoy the idle in VT for now!)
* Pacesetter Long Tube headers - same as the cam, I'll enjoy them in VT, change later WHEN I have to - but not till they MAKE me!
* I have a pair of stock 2001 exhaust manifolds already ported for the day I have to meet CARB requirements
* Custom wiring harness from Speartech
* 2001 Gas tank, emissions equipment, etc.
* I'm debating on the exhaust - my mechanic wants me to go with an x-pipe system for max power, but I'm worried about the CA smog ***** giving me a hard time. I may just stay with my Flowmaster American Thunder Catback, get two Random Technology cats (CARB legal!!) and put them in the 3rd gen stock location, and make a custom y-pipe. Then I've just got to put in the 4 oxygen sensors to make it legal.
* 4th gen console
* Shorty shifter
* Replacing the stock Borg-Warner 9-bolt rear with a Moser 9" rear, going to 4.11 gears (great racing gear, but still get 27+ mpg in sixth gear!)
* Spohn adjustable torque arm with crossmember mounting
* Spohn subframe connectors
* LCA relocation brackets for 3rd gen with Moser 9"
* Aftermarket replacement clutch (25% stronger than the stock clutch on a Z06)
* 4th gen brakes all the way around
* New wheels and tires, researching that now
* Not sure what else without looking, but those are the "big" items

I'd guess I'll be somewhere around $10k for the swap when I get done. That's a ballpark figure - could be less, might be more. I've gotten great deals on some very good used parts, which has helped me out a lot. Anyway you look at it, it's still expensive - and THEN I'm gonna need new paint for my ride!!

 

Well, I'm still researching and talking to people who have done swaps, and I'm leaning towards an LT1 swap because it's easier and cheaper, while stil giving a pretty good boost in power.

Do you know anything about headers for LT1's (since they will fit on my current L03 TBI engine)?

I think I'm going to redo the whole exhaust.. headers,cat,cat-back, since I can reuse it all next summer if I do the LT-1 swap.


Do you know if the shorty headers are CA legal (they say 50 state legal on thunderracing.com ... im not sure though).


Also, what's a good, CA legal cat? YOu mentioned the random tech. one, but is there anything else cause that thing is like $220.

 

I'd give Thunder Racing a call and ask about the headers - they are very helpful and very knowledgable. I'll be more than happy to give them my business in the future - I am a VERY satisfied customer with all the extra work and research they've put in for me without any extra fees!

Anyway, talk to someone at Thunder on the phone, and they'll be able to tell you exactly what headers will/won't be legal in CA for an LT1, and what will be the best for your application.

As for other cats, I really don't know. Everything I hear about the Random Tech's are that they are simply the best there is. Maybe someone else will pipe in. Or you can check here http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm
and contact them for a complete list of all CA legal cats (or other parts, for that matter), and then do some research from there. Again, the folks at Thunder can probably tell you a lot there as well.

As to the LS1 vs. LT1, it really comes down to what you want and how much you want to spend. I wanted to build a 500+ hp street car, still get good highway mileage, and have the capability of even more power down the road. The LS1 was in my budget, and met all of my needs - plus I just like anything that is "advanced" technology (I'm a hobbyist techno-geek), and the LS1 qualifies over the LT1 in that regard. Having said all that, the LT1 is definitely a stout alternative that got a close 2nd place for me. Had I a smaller budget, I would not have hesitated. Go for it man. Definitely both easier and cheaper, and still a HUGE upgrade from what you've got now.

 

Most cats are legal in Ca. The issue is that some cars use the tube to the side of the cat with the air pump to pump fresh air into the cat. The v8 third gens do that. They make cats without that tube, but they aren't legal to use on a car that requires the tube. Our cars require the tube. You can use any engine used by any car from the same manufacturer for the year of your car without going to a referee. That means that for a 1992 only, you could install an lt1 out of a 92 Vette without going to a referee. You would still need all of the smog equipment installed. If you put something in that requires a sign off by a referee, once it is signed off and gets that sticker in the door jamb, you are done with the ref. From then on, the smog tech just scans in the bar code on the sticker, and they get all of the info coming up on their computer that they need.

 

As a former CA state referee and current CA state licensed smog check technician, once the referee puts the B.A.R. label on your car you can go to any licensed smog check station. DON'T be surprised if you are picked to go to a "test only" station. As far as engine changes go, you can install an engine in your particular car if that engine is the same as the one you have(a replacement engine), an engine that was offered that year for your vehicle so long as the required emission controls are installed and connected.
So my 87 RS has a 2.8L engine, and I want to put in a 305 TPI I can do it without referee inspection because that engine was offered that year and I have to have ALL of the required emissions systems hooked up and working. I can go so far as to put the correct emission underhood label and no smog tech would know the difference unless he checks the VIN. Now with that V-6 lets say I want to put in a 3.1 or a 3.4. Technically those two engines weren't available for a camaro in 87, but offered later on. By law you would have to have the required emissions for that year engine and have the referee inspect it and issue a B.A.R. label. BUT you know as I do those engines look identical so if you put it in and have all the correct stuff for the 87 no one can tell the difference, and the car will be smogged as if it was a 2.8L.

Now for the LT-1/LS-1 swaps, those engines were offered in 4th gen cars so you have to have all the 4th gen equipment in the 3rd gen and go see the referee. As far as trannys go, 96 and later cars have the speed input to the ECM so that is needed otherwise the computer won't work right and the "check eng"light will always be on, and when the smog test is done we plug into the OBDII diag port to check for monitors and codes. As far as 93-95's go I don't know.
I just picked up a 89 RS 305 TBI car and I'm gonna put in either a L98 350 or a vortec-headed 350 and retain the TBI and hop it up a bit. Under the hood will look stock and you won't tell the difference.

 

Wow, California sounds like it sucks to live there.

 

mikey-R :hail: Thank you for clarifying that.
It's a confusing book of rules that we got to live by out here.

 

Looks like you designated yourself to answer a lot of questions in the near future.

 

any way I can help guys do this stuff right Im all for it. Im not saying Im an expert or an "know it all' but I do work in the business and get access to information not shared by the state and so on. Besides, I would like to see modified cars come in, Im sooooo bored doing hondas and toyotas!!!

 

Mike R,

what are the legality's about Vortech heads on L98's? since you would have to run a system like a corvette for the EGR, will a smog tech fail you because of the vortec heads and the additional tubing to the manifolds? since Vortec's were not offered that year and that technically changes the emissions routing. whats the standings on that?

 

honestly, Im not sure. I don't know why you would want to change the alum heads off your L98 to vortecs, but my guess is that since its almost all GM parts it would be okay so long as the change doesn't adversely affect the operation of the emission controls. Gotta watch out though with the heads that the combustion chamber doesn't increase the compression so much that it grossly increases NOx.

Im thinkin of calling the B.A.R. or the referee to get an answer.

Just read my smog check manual and under Apendix K on modifications and add on parts, there is a CA VC section 27156 that says "no person shall disconnect or modify or alter any emission control device without authorization from the A.R.B. Essentially, a part that isn't FUNCTIONALLY indentical to the original in all respects which in any way affect emissions must be "approved" by the A.R.B. before that part can be used on any emission control motor vehicle.

"Replacement" parts do not need ARB exemption numbers.
A "modified" part that is not functionally indentical to the original equipment in all respects which in any way affect emissions must be approved by the A.R.B.
via an exemption order number. Examples include: performance cams, heads, etc.

"Acceptable" replacement parts, any intake manifold or adapter that includes provisions for OEM emission controls(EGR, TAC,carb, thermal vacuum switches, choke stove exhaust crossovers, etc)

Parts requiring ARB approval: EGR modifications, exhaust headers, crossover pipes, and intake manifolds not described earlier.

Contact the Air Resources Board for verification of parts
www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt.htm

HOPE THAT MAKES ANY SENSE

 

just an FYI, the only L98's that came with aluminum stock heads were the corvettes, camaros got iron. thats what i have

 

i hope the hooker headers that are 2055 are 50 state legal i just bought them. although i can always get my car to get passed by someone. i probaly have to do that anyways since i am running no cat.

 

yeah they are.. i have them on mine, they come with a carb plate on the driver side manifold.














500th post :lala: :lala: :lala:

 

Mikey,

What would be a good Cat. converter for my Car (92 Camaro 305TBI)?

I'm redoing the whole exhaust. I'm getting hooker 2055 headers, and a banks cat back..

 

carsound catalytic converter by magnaflow is the best cat.

 

Im looking into either the magnaflow cat or the dynomax cat. Either one will be fine so long as its the correct replacement cat for your car. When you get it done be sure you get a receipt with the part# on it and either the box or the warranty card saying the cat is CARB and EPA approved for your car.

Anyways I called the ARB on friday, they told me if it aint got a ARB E.O. number for the particular part you want to use on your car, it's not legal, even if it's a factory part. So the vortec thing...OUT. As for putting a whole H.O. L98 in your car...the whole thing including the TPI and computer, etc has to go in and then a date to see the referee.

Now here's were it gets a little fuzzy... a 350 was offered in a camaro in certain years. So getting a "replacement" engine is not required to see the referee provided ALL emission controls are hooked as originally installed. BUT, you can't put in the H.O. motor with the alum heads and put on the TBI unit cuz of the way the EGR system is set up. But...if you put in the 350 with the iron heads and dress it up as it was when it had a 305 that's fine. There is that 1% chance that the particular smog test shop you take it to is gun shy and doesn't want to do it for fear of the smog police.

I've figured out what I'm gonna do with my 89 RS...but I'll never tell...:lala: