BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Travis is right.
That relay is called the Starter Enable Relay and is controlled by the Pass-Key decoder module, it does not control the ECM or anything. If you only had a problem with this relay and not the whole Anti-Theft system, then taping this relay closed helped solve your issue. But it wouldn't work for any general VATS problem, specifically missing keys, bad ignition cylinder key contacts, broken key wires or bad Pass-Key decoder module. Your fix only addresses a bad SER, no other VATS issues.

Hope this clears it up.
Lou

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Ive lost count at the number of threads were Ive explained the VATS system, but here it is again...

The VATS system works like this. There is a VATS module that is programmed to activate when it reads a correct resistance load on the circuit. This resistance load is created by the chip in your key. When you put the key in the ignition, each side of the "chip" in it makes contact with electrical contacts in the ignition cylinder. THis completes an electrical circuit and current flows though the "chip," and arrives at the VATS module with whatever amount of resistance the key gave it (with a little more from the actual wiring). If the VATS module doesnt interpret this as a correct value, it does nothing. If it does interpret the resistance value being correct and within the tolerance range, it activates. When it activates, it does 2 things. It grounds the start enable relay under the driver side kick panel, allowing current to pass to the starter and spin the motor. It also sends a signal to the ECM that tells the ECM the correct key is inserted and its ok for the injectors to fire. Without BOTH of those happening, your car doesn't run.

The person who just taped the relay together, you most likely have a faulty start enable relay, or your VATS module is malfunctioning or has already been bypassed.
The easiest way to bypass the start enable relay is to ground it permanently and leave it in place. Or you can rewire the starter solenoid wire to not include that relay if the relay is bad or you just want to get rid of it.

Shagwell

Is there a simple way to "trick" the ECM by sending signal to it? Pos or neg and would it need resistance?

I've got an '87 gta that we put the original harness & ECU from my '89 in. Was planning to have the chip re-flashed to eliminate the VATS, but haven't had much luck getting that done for what I would consider a reasonable price(have been quoted $100+). Also, not really wanting to mess with carrying the '89 column and all the VATS related stuff over either.

Thanks

Yahtzee

Well thank you for clarifying sir!! And since I did an LS swap I suppose just bypassing the SER was all I needed to do.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

There are kits on fleaBay that generate the appropriate signal for the ECM to simulate a working Pass-Key decoder. However, once you do that, any retard on the planet will be able to start your car with a screwdriver and drive away. VATS pays for itself because it cannot be easily bypassed and the car is hard to steal.

It is easier to burn a chip. Sending you a PM.

Lou

DiabloWS6

iTrader: (8)

i recieved last week the vats bypass module from hawksthirdgenparts.com it looks like it was worth the $60

Shagwell

Thanks Lou. Getting the chip done as I originally intended is probably the best deal, I'll let you know.

sec-k

I am about to install a 1991 Firebird TBI engine in a '56 Chevy. I have the engine harness from the donor car and have already cut out the unnecessary wires. I also have a computer from a 1992 Camaro. I'll be using the stock '56 ignition switch to crank the engine but heard from others that it won't fire due to the VATS. I only need the engine to fire, so I'm not concerned with the security. What needs to be done to trick the ECM to thinking it's still in that 1992 Camaro? Will the resistor trick work in my situation? Do I need to get the VATS module from the donor car?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Unless you get the VATS module from the 91 or 92 donor car, then youll have to either get the ECM chip burned to remove VATS or buy a VATS bypass module. If you do get the VATS module then the resistor trick should work. Youll need the module from whatever cat you got the computer from btw. The VATS module is nearly impossible to get to without tearing the dash completely apart, and the bypass module is like $50. Id suggest just buying the bypass module.

sec-k

Thanks for the info. I think the bypass module is the way to go.

DiabloWS6

iTrader: (8)

yeah i bought the vats bypass from hawksthirdgenparts.com its simple with the help of some of these friendly and smart fellow thirdgen owners

pjammer

use a miltitster set to ohms, or your dealer has a reader to give you the #. (1-15)
compare # to chart above.

pleiku10

I just bought the Hawks bypass for my wifes alero today, but look at this!http://www.gmupfitter.com/publicat/bull/bull26.pdf On the alero the 3 small wires are on top of the ignition switch,I have read that the car should be running when you cut the thin yellow wire to splice in the toggle switch, that way the system is in fail/operate mode and will remain that way. The toggle is insurance that if your battery goes dead or needs to be replaced or disconnected, you can turn on the system to get started again and then turn it off again-----This whole system is a POS!!!!

travis401

iTrader: (1)

"Start the engine with the ignition key (modification switch must be in the OFF
position). Turn modification switch to the ON position (contacts open). The
Security Telltale will light up indicating that the Passlock System is inoperative.
Once the security telltale has been on for at least 5 seconds the vehicle can be
turned off and then remotely started."

The above was quoted directly from your link....this only works if the VATS system is FULLY FUNCTIONAL to begin with. You have to start the car with the correct key then flip the "bypass" switch then kill the car for it to work. This isnt ment to bypass broken systems, its ment to install a remote start like most modern car alarms have provisions for. And its specific to certain 98-06 GM trucks, not your wife's alero or any thirdgen.

Syntax45170

Hi y'all ! I bought a 88 Firebird Trans-Am as of a week ago today. Please keep in my mind that this is the first car I've ever owned that was over 10 years old. And I can't start the car and I suspect it's the VATS system fault but I've also been told that they only put those on the 89's and later. Is that true? Could I have gotten a newer Anti theft system and will need to disable the VATS? If so what is the easiest way to do so? I'm only 18 and eventhough I'm handy with a ratchet I'm no where near a prodigy. Could I just get it done professionally?

cronsformula350

My system is also screwing up. It lets the starter work, but doesn't ground the fuel injectors or fuel pump to prime and run. I saw on my gauge the injectors were primed, and they weren't firing, the exhaust didn't smell like gas. No fuel. I can't by pass that yet to work, thats a more complicated fix at an unltra foods, lol. I'm wondering does that vats module see a problem where then? I read that lead with my meter in my car, it shows my amount & still no fuel action, lol. But 15 times on off ignition resets it? I've never heard that, I just put 10K on my car, and 132+ and it just screwed up last night, lol. I'm all ears

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

No chip on the key = no VATS. No mistaking if it is there or not either.

And your 88 should not have it.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Unless your starter enable relay has been bypassed (grounded) then its not a VATS issue. The module grounds the start enable relay and sends the signal to the ECM. If the VATS module grounds the relay, then its functioning. There could be a break in the wire from the VATS module to the ECM or something like that. Or a faulty ECM or prom. Biggest indicator of the VATS malfunctioning is the SECURITY light staying lit when you turn the key. If it lights up then goes off, VATS is fine.

cronsformula350

wheres the starter enable relay? I've never heard of that before, my starters working, but the fuel side isn't coming in, which is also part of the vats system as stated on all data

Here's all data:

CIRCUIT OPERATION

The brain of the PASSkey(R) system is a special decoder module that reads the pellet resistance through the lock cylinder contacts. It then compares this key code with its own internal code.

If the codes match, the decoder supplies a ground for the starter enable relay and modulates a 5 volt reference signal (at 2.5 volts) from the ECM or PCM which will then pulse the fuel injectors.

If the codes do not match, the decoder module sets its internal timer which locks out starter operation and fuel enable for up to three minutes.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

The start enable relay is located under the kick panel on the driverside, sorta under the hood release latch. Most likely under a black square of goo. If your starter turns it sounds like the VATS module is getting the correct resistance from the key and sending the signal, its just not making it to the ECM, or the ECM isnt functioning correctly. Does the SECURITY light on your dash stay lit when you turn the key to the ON position?

cronsformula350

no security light on, crank, no fuel injector relay or pulsing. I primed the pump, and its at like 40psi for 2 dasy now. VATS won't energize the fuel circuit as part of its safety, so its something funny, ed wright mentioned I should remove the vats alarm module all together, so I'll try that soon today, i'll keep you posted...son bich lol

travis401

iTrader: (1)

THe vats module is next to impossible to get to without tearing most of the dash apart. In youre case its either an ECM issue, or a wiring issue. It sounds like your VATS works fine, just that the signal isnt getting to the ECM or the ECM isnt functioning correctly.

cronsformula350

Yeah I've pulled quite a few things a part, after disconnecting the module and reconnecting it, I have no power for the computer either, no ses light, so it means its not firing up. So now I'm on that journey, lol

cronsformula350

I just found a TSB that there are a lot of electrical connectors, it looks like this now, explaining my problem:

TECHNICAL

Bulletin No.: 09-06-03-004D

Date: December 08, 2010

Subject: Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules - Diagnosing and Repairing Fretting Corrosion (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant)
Models:
2011 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks

Attention:
This repair can be applied to ANY electrical connection including, but not limited to: lighting, body electrical, in-line connections, powertrain control sensors, etc. DO NOT over apply lubricant to the point where it prevents the full engagement of sealed connectors. A light coating on the terminal surfaces is sufficient to correct the condition.

Supercede:
This bulletin is being revised to update the Attention statement and add the 2011 model year. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-03-004C (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

Condition

Some customers may comment on any of the following conditions:
- An intermittent no crank/no start
- Intermittent malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) illumination
- Intermittent service lamp illumination
- Intermittent service message(s) being displayed

The technician may determine that he is unable to duplicate the intermittent condition.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Thats just a general bullitin to put an electrical conducting grease one any electrical connector having intermittent problems.

cronsformula350

WELL that was actually written up as a TSB on ALLDATA but I checked the one right near the brake booster, it was fine, theres a tar like substance in there from the factory. I also fixed one terminal by the battery, I got it apart, barely and it was broken inside, usually they're not glued together, but this one was. So I fixed that. At then end I pull the fuse panel down, and the ecm dual wires that usually go to the ECM fuse, were broken, I reconnected, got fuel pressure and she started right up. I knew there couldn't have been some other issue, which is why it was baffling me, lol. I had my whole dash apart to find the problem. At least now I know its fine, mileage happens and mine does have 132,000+ on it now. The copper link from wires to the back of the fuse was just broken free and laying there, hence why it just stopped in traffic, but its all better now

Camaroguy91

my wire is 2 yellow wires wrapped in black. i did the resistor fix but still doesnt start it.. still has no power to the starter and fuel pump at least thats what the "mechanic" said.. any advice as where to look next? or what it could be.. HELP please

travis401

iTrader: (1)

thats not the coorect wires to start with...it should be a white and black wire, wrapped in an orange case. usually wires wrapped in a yellow case are for the SIR.

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

Tell me if this is VATS:
New motor, all new ignition etc.
Cranks but injectors don't spray, turn ignition on and the ses light stays on. I plan on trying the resistor fix in a couple of days and I really hope it's that.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

the cranking and SES light staying on says it could be vats, but more likely something else. what does the security light do?

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

The security light? Damnit I never knew these cars had that? I'm pretty sure it's not coming on... I don't think i've seen it ever come on my digital dash.. I'll have to check tmrw, so it's not the service engine light that when you turn the igniton "on" it should come on briefly then in a few seconds go away?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

yea, theres a ligh on the dash that says "security" it should light up a few seconds then shut off. if it stays lit theres a problem with VATs, or its the wrong key or something alone those lines. if it doesnt have a security light on the dash then youre car may not have a VATS system at all. I dont remember what year they started putting them in, but it was sometime in the mid 80s

travisgold

i have done it in my brothers 94 bird same procedure you going to want to remove the kick panel under the steering coloum grab a multimeter and find the leads heading up to the ignition you going to want to hook up the multimeter to those wires turn the ignition over with the key the multimeter will give the right resistor reading write down that value head to your nearest radioshack and buy the resistor that the multimeter read out and hook it up to the leads thats how you bypass it which is basically the same as disabling it.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

the resistor trick is only used to bypass a problem with either the key "chip" or the ignition cylinder contacts/wires. if youre getting the correct resistance values on the wires comming from the column, then adding the resistor is pointless since it only mimics the resistor in the key that is either not there, or not contacting right.

this doesnt solve an issue with the VATS module itself. if the VATS moude is bad it has to be either replaced or bypassed with a VATS bypass module (the ones on hawks and other various sites).

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

You just solder your resistors in a series, then stick them in the back of the plug in? Do you unplug it or leave it plugged in?

Mr Froman

You tell me. Do it in series and tell me what happens please. I've seen a picture a million times of a resistor in parallel and I don't see how that would work.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

you shouldnt need more than one resistor. as long as you get one within the tolerance range of the VATS. if you need more than one you can run them in series (its how i had mine before i got rid of the computer completely). you unplug the column wires and attach the resistors in its place.

again, this doesnt fix a VATS module problem, it only bypass the key/ignition contacts part of the VATS system.

travisgold

in a way i don't see what the point of vats does sure it makes it hard for the car to be "jacked" but its pointless an alarm system should do the trick better

travis401

iTrader: (1)

its a factory installed theft deterant, not a "theft proof system" the only way to get a VATS equipt car to start without the correct key is to either provide the resistance in the circuit or supply the correct pulse wave signal to the ECM. what theif do you know carries a resistors or a bypass module with them to steal a car?

travisgold

yes i understand that

ArtB

pulse wave? I thought the signal from the PASSKEY module to the ECM was a steady 5 volts? hmm. So much for my plan of making the ECM work without the darn thing.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Steady 5V would be easy to supply with a paperclip in a few seconds so there would be no point in using VATS in the first place.
The signal from the PassKey module to the ECM is a specially modulated waveform that cannot be easily bypassed with a screwdriver or a paperclip. Though it can be still bypassed with the right module and adequate training. So as it has been pointed out numerous times before, VATS does not make the car unstealable but it makes it harder to drive away in for a regular thief.
If somebody wants to steal your car, they will. Even if you put chains through the wheels and weld the steering shut. Flatbed, anybody?

ArtB

Well actually I'm not looking to steal anything. I'm looking to make the L98 tune port engine run in a swap. I have the PASSKEY module and all (yes all) of the wiring harness,engine to gas tank. (gas tank too) So I will either get one of those by.pass deals or the resistors for the lead to the ignition tumbler.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

resistors are cheap and easily replaced. the bypass box is expensive, but good for someone who doesnt know how to use a multimeter. You can always have the ECM tuned to delete the VATS part too.

cronsformula350

Well in my car, it wasn't anything to do with the VATS when these cars came out in the 80's they were the most commonly stolen vehicle in america, they didn't use resistors because they were cheap, your wrong on that one. Mine broke because the ECM 10 amp fuse holder, made of copper snapped in half at 134K and since 1989 in 2011. I'm likely going carb soon, my motots gonna be over 600hp on motor, so **** fuel injection, too much money to tune, let alone changing all the wiring and ****, and spend money on dyno tunes, f that!

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Old way of thinking right there. It costs you virtually nothing to tune an EFI system other than your time. You just have to invest the time into learning to do it right, just like tuning a carb. It takes a simple laptop and cable and FREE software. Or you can get an aftermarket system that TUNES ITSELF. I run a carb for 1 simple fact, its cheaper. I dont have $1500 for a complete fuel injection set up so I have a free carb with a $30 rebuild kit sitting on top of the engine.

cronsformula350

I have known how to change timing, tps and fuel pressure for years, thats not always "tuning" I meant the knowledge the computer has about the engine. Ed Wright closed his business now, no more dyno, and I'm just gonna run a carb!

BigMyke

1992 Firebird 305 5 Speed VIN#F
I checked behind my kick panel and this is what i find. Am I missing something or should I be seeing a relay? BTW, I had to break open the black insulation for the first time to look behind it. Does anyone have an actual picture of the starter relay?





neither one of these can be the starter relay is it? If not, what are they?

mehanso

My 92 Z28 looks exactly like your T/A wheel well featuring the same lack of the starter relay. So, if someone can enlighten me as well I would greatly appreciate it.

BigMyke

Mehanso, can you check if the relay is behind a shield near your starter/solenoid under your car?