skinny z

So much for "truth in advertising" !
Waiting on your review of the Mickey Thompson SS radial...

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

ET Street S/S arrived today and will be mounted in a few days.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Wow, what a night and day difference. Those Nitto NT05R tires are a joke!

These Mickey Thompson ET Street S/S tires flat out work! Even at 35 psi these tires hook in 1st gear like the Nittos did in 3rd gear. I can go full throttle in 1st gear now if I roll into the power. I'm going to begin lowering tire pressure and see what it likes from a standing stop.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yuuup

skinny z

That's encouraging news. MTs are on my list for next season.
Did you get the 255/50/16? (not sure of your rim size)

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

275/40-17


I was doing some data logging today and see in one of the data logs where I did a short hit from 30 mph roll and went to 50 mph in 1 second with no tire spin. These tires are great!

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

More proof the Nitto's are junk. Found a data log from a week ago with the Nitto NT05R tires @22 psi on the street. Immediate spin off the line (tires at 25 mph). Never exceeded 50% throttle in 1st gear and tires were spinning the whole way. Hit 2nd gear and gave it 70% throttle and scrubbed/spun the tires the whole way until I let off. This is literally as good a run as I ever got out of those Nitto tires.

In contrast today, the MT tires (@35 psi) held 90% throttle in 1st gear. And I haven't even played with tire pressure yet.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I went to the drag strip to get numbers on my car the normal way I drive it with tires at 26 psi. Basically, it acted just like the street where the tires don't hold any power off the line but hold all the power part way through 1st gear. Best 60' was 1.9 seconds with an 11.8 quarter mile. Trap speeds ranged in the 123 to 125 mph range depending how much traction I got from the start, and whether or not I bounced on the rev limiter. I've never run my car "all out" on the street so it was a new and fun experience for me! I'm pretty happy because I've got an honest 11 second street car just the way I drive it.

You know, you see these magazine articles with fast numbers and I didn't see a single car run that good. There was a Dodge Viper turning out 12.5's at 121. One of those new Mustang GT's with the track pack turned 13.7's at 108. A stock LS1 Camaro running 14.1 at 106. There was a supercharged Z06 (C5) running 11.7 at 127. Even some of the cars with slicks and roll cages were turning out low to mid 12's. I got the impression the track was slow that night, which might make it even more impressive the numbers I turned.

So.... I guess I have to decide what to do next because if I do hook up off the line I am going to be knocking on 11.5 and I don't have the safety equipment. Sometimes going faster isn't really worthwhile.

skinny z

The track is a blast isn't it?
As for your potential sub 11.50's, you may find that those rules are relaxed somewhat. My local track, which is IHRA regulated allows for:

11.50 Roll Bar Rule Update: This group is limited to any unaltered 2008 or newer foreign or domestic, production type automobile or truck that is street driven with proof of registration, vehicle insurance with valid license plates. These vehicles are limited to street events, test & tune and select import events. Competition in the facilities normal weekly ET bracket series under these parameters is prohibited. These vehicles may run provided all of the criteria listed within this section is verified prior to participation. Unaltered 2008 OEM model year and newer production cars running slower than 10.00 and 135 mph do not have to meet the requirements and specifications for the Summit Sportsman ET safety rules.

As such, many racers have managed to run below 11.50 that aren't 2008 or newer etc, etc, and don't get asked to leave. Your track may follow similar guidelines. Certainly your ride isn't some safety incident waiting to happen.
Get out there and go faster....

thilp

Off-topic, but you list your engine as a "stroked LS"

If not done carefully stroking some LS engines can present big problems with the pistons, see the video for more info.


If you already knew this, sorry.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Ya, I know. If the engine lasts 50K miles it will be way too long to still be interesting. I'm turning up the wick next year. Not even using the whole power band yet.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Already looking forward to going back to the track next spring for another try. My horsepower curve has not peaked yet and I figured out that if I lift my rev limiter 400 rpm then the change in shift points will give me +25 HP going into each gear. Also ordered some gauges tonight so I know when to shift. I was flying blind last time because the factory tach was behind 600 or 700 rpm at high rpm's. I was either shifting early or bouncing off the rev limiter the whole night. Combine that with the Holley EFI flipping out over the low voltage and there are several reasons why I should run faster next time.

But alas, winter is here and the car sits in the garage with bed sheets on it. Only good thing about the cold is I get a chance to extend the cold start map. High on Sunday is projected to be 9F so I will do a little cold start tuning.

izcain

It is amazing how much time is lost on a shift if the limiter is just bumped.

skinny z

Somewhat similar to what I hope to achieve next season. Although in my case, it's having a new engine that makes more horsepower at the prescribed shift RPM. I anticipate a gain of 50+ HP at 6500 RPM. (Not so much power made but a reflection of the lack of power with the old cam and heads.)

Isn't that the truth. The Chevelle, with it's style of limiting, cuts the fuel off past red-line with a huge lean spike resulting. Power disappears and the engine needs time to recover. This season it made a difference between running 11's (11.01 flat) and accomplishing the first 10 second pass.


Pretty much. Around here that means another 3-4 months of hibernation.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I got some time to reflect on things over winter and I think my poor 60' time is a simple matter of front springs being too stiff. The car has almost no weight transfer whatsoever. I found a thread with stock spring rates and I was shocked to learn that my front springs are more than 2x the spring rate of some of the V8 models.

Right now the torque arm is being reworked for more ground clearance so I can run software springs without scraping the ground all the time. I'm shopping for new front springs and I'll see how that works. Probably going to be an entirely different car off the line.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I have Global West #4256 Street/Drag springs installed for my fronts. I was looking to raise my front end - 84TA with Aero package. This was 20 years ago. But you might want to research these springs.

Edit: I just sent an email to GW asking for info.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I appreciate the thought but I'm going to have to be very selective what I get in order to achieve the ride height I want and balance it all with decent handling and travel limits of my shocks. Not looking for a long travel drag spring.

My car ends up sitting way lower than normal because of the combination of aftermarket parts on the car. I don't think my spring perch is at normal height. I'm going to have to measure things out and order the correct springs to get this right.

Pyroviking

iTrader: (4)

Oh, hey, I remember this thread!

So, I was having a similar problem getting my '90 Trans Am to hook up. So I took Kingtal0n's advice and went out and bought a 2800# 2.0L Turbo ('07 Solstice GXP), since he seemed pretty knowledgeable and confident about that being the solution. I was so excited when I got it home! As soon as I parked it, I immediately hopped into my '90 and took it out...

... but it still wouldn't hook up.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Okay, that is funny.

skinny z

AND clever.

skinny z

I would think that the new springs will only be part of the recipe. Wouldn't it call for different shock valving too?
There's that line again about a more drag race orientated setup vs one that's more suited to the street. Personally, I'd like to set of double adjustables front and rear so I could have the best of the both worlds.
That and new drag radials....

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Yes, struts might be in my future too. I need to feel this out one change at a time because I'm not wanting a drag suspension. Just looking for an incremental improvement over what I have now.... problem is I'm not sure how large an increment until I feel what happens with each change.

skinny z

One thing I know that benefits these cars is the ability to pre-load the rear suspension.
In the absence of adjustable arms, as in the case of some four-link designs, the working option is to adjust the spring rate of one side vs the other.
After reading through one of my suspension books (just yesterday actually), I re-read about the use of airbags to achieve this rather the actually changing springs. This was directed specifically at the torque arm platform. Having incorporated the airbags long ago I was surprised to read that as much as 25 psi additional pressure in the passenger side may be required to keep the straight at the launch. I've only worked with about 15 PSI in the difference and the car still wandered out of the groove to the right. This season (if I ever get my car reassembled), I'll work the rear suspension tuning further. At some point, I'll undoubtedly have to invest in struts and shocks just as you may have to. And as I've mentioned, new drag radials are needed as well.
I'm certain that there's quite a bit more in my 60' that the 1.71 which marks my personal best. And that was long ago. It's dropped into the mid 1.8x with no signs of improvement from whatever tuning I'm able to do (which is minimal).
I'll be interested in your progress.

skinny z

I'm still digging into this and I came across an article by Ron Sutton. You might find it interesting.

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...-vs-lower-link

Sutton's contribution is in post #5.
I'd like your feedback if you find the time to read it over. Some of it doesn't pertain to our particular platform but there is pertinent information regarding a torque arm suspension.

Here's a link to the first article I was referring to.

http://www.musclecardiy.com/performa...nd-three-link/

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Most the info in that post does not apply to a torque arm. You would be better off finding a post that talks about torque arm suspension to avoid confusion.

A 3 link has a fixed location, pivot mounting point at chassis and axle. A torque arm has a fixed, rigid mount to the axle (cannot pivot) and the front mount can slide in the fore-aft direction and only applies force to the chassis in the vertical direction (up and down).

skinny z

The 2nd link deals directly with a torque arm suspension.

"This chapter looks at muscle cars with rear-suspension systems using coil springs with two lower control arms and a torque tube. These factory three-link cars include GM 1982 to 2002 Camaros and Firebirds (also referred to as third- and fourth-generation F-Body cars). Since rear-wheel-drive cars with rear coil springs, two lower control arms, and a torque tube did not have upper and lower control arms with opposing angles like the factory four-link cars, it was also necessary to add a track locater (called a Panhard bar)."

Regarding the link first posted, admittedly, a lot of it doesn't come out in that particular post but information is there.
If I'm not mistaken, Rob Sutton has some notoriety regarding the 3rd gen and some SCCA success. TEDSGrad has a thread here (but I think you've seen it?).

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...ther-scca.html (Smith grabs another SCCA Majors victory in American Sedan)

Z28FAST1

What kind of mileage are people getting with the MT ET S/S tires? I'm deciding between these and the Toyo tq radials.

I have Mickey Thompson ET Drag Slick 26 for the track, low 1.5s 60 ft but can't hook in street trim Nitto N555r (305/35/18)

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Ron Sutton is the boss. I have seen him post in various forums about how to make a car handle. He is fantastic at talking at a level that most people can understand and putting ideas to work in the real world. There are lots of smart people out there but much fewer that can communicate well.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I haven't had mine long enough to know. About 3K miles from what I have heard. Maybe more of a problem is that street driving dries them out. Mine are already losing grip and I need to do some maintenance to restore traction. Need to find a way to do that without tearing up the tread badly.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I am learning that DOT drag radials aren't really for the street. Street driving these MT ET/SS tires is ruining them. They are getting slick as snot and burnouts aren't helping much any more. I did a long burn out tonight and didn't even get smoke off the tires.

I have tried a few things to improve traction. None have been successful in the slightest. Keep in mind I want the car to handle well so I am intentionally avoiding a true drag race suspension.

* Switched out the Bilstein yellow front struts for some Koni yellows hoping the rebound adjustment would be of some help. No help at all other than ride quality.

* Next I swapped out front springs for something with more travel. Had some Hotchkis springs laying around so I pulled out the 800 lb/inch Ground Control weight jacks and dropped in the 600 lb/in Hotchkis. No effect on traction.

* After that I swapped out the rear springs for some Hypercoil variable rate springs I had laying around. Not sure the spring rate, but they were definitely softer than the Ground Control springs I had in the car. No effect on traction.

All in all the ride quality has improved some but the car is less settled than before. The rear oversteers way too easy now and it feels like the car just wants to do something unpredictable every time I mash the throttle. I think I'll put the Ground Control weight jacks back in because it will keep me out of the ditches.

So it looks like the secret sauce must be in the rear shocks. I need somethings stiffer. Any suggestions?

skinny z

I'm in much the same boat as you are. I'd like a drag racing setup when at the track but I don't want to give up the overall street driving ride.
It seems that it's not possible. For handling, the Koni yellows are the de facto standard. The adjustability doesn't work for what I need at the track though. My understanding is that the typical 90/10 front and 50/50 rear extension/compression ratios aren't something that's achievable with the Konis (or any other adjustable "street" shock that I've come across). On the flip side, getting a set of Viking/QA1 or similar adjustable "drag" struts/shocks, while allowing for a race setup, won't transfer well to the street. QA1 has two separate listings to distinguish between the different applications.
At least so far as my internet inquiries have shown. But maybe I'm missing something.
I'm curious as to what you'll some up with.

skinny z

I've sent a request to QA1 regarding this.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I talked to Viking today. They suggested the Warrior shock for my car that will be street driven a lot. I don't make enough power to take advantage of their Crusader line of shocks. The Warrior will give me more adjustability in the range that I would use.

A true drag shock is indeed different valving. They didn't offer to go there for my application. Their catalog has some info in it that illustrates the differences in the damping curves.

http://www.magazinevolume.com/17689BF/#/1/

skinny z

Thanks for the link.
(Haven't received a reply from QA1 yet)

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I went ahead and ordered up the Viking Warrior shocks for rear.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Curious how they work out for you but to me, street traction is purely weight balance and tire size. Theres only so much you can do.

Shocks springs etc are for static launches at the drag strip. On street if you are already moving then i dont think any of that stuff helps much. Atleast for me i havent seen it. Track is prepped. Street is not. Just never will hook the same no matter what you do imo

Even from a stop, on the street, shocks can def help some but most traction comes from weight biased over rear tire and big slicks

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

No harm done. My old shocks appeared to be too weak so I was getting new shocks anyway. Having the double adjustable will at least satisfy my curiosity.

skinny z

I know this has been discussed regarding the lower control arms and relocation brackets.
My question is (as a benchmark for myself in my chassis tuning): What angle would you say your LCAs are at (relative to the ground)?
I know I'm looking for "up" at the front and I'm presently using the lowest holes on the Spohn LCARBs. This is something I'll measure (when I'm back in town) and it would be interesting to have a comparison. I don't suppose there's a set value but if you have success then I (and possibly others) have something to go by.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Kinda depends on what the car is doing which is effected by power and weight bias. You want anti squat which means front of lca is higher than the part that attaches to the lcarb brackets. Harder you hit the car with power, and lower the rear of the lca is, the more the rear will plant and body will lift. Helps keep the front down but shock settings also need to work together here

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I'm sitting at about 3 degrees (axle side down).

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I always liked that near parallel slightly down for handling purposes but thats just going by butt dyno around streets. Lca all way down seems to feel weird on hard turns to me.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Finally found what appears to be a good article about drag radials. I've been doing things wrong and have some false expectations.

From what I am reading, a drag radial is a "dead hook tire." If the tire spins then it can be hard to regain traction. It just isn't a very good match to a manual transmission.

Secondly, I should have been rotating the tires frequently whenever the feathering appeared. Not rotating the tires reduced the life of my tire dramatically and also reduced traction. This is probably why my tires stopped working.

And my traction has been further reduced because my wheel isn't wide enough. I am running a 9 inch rim which is the minimum for my size tire. Drag radials work better when stretched to the maximum size.

I also need to do some work with my suspension geometry. Car is not leaving the line in a good manner. Regarding the new shocks, I have not installed my rear shocks yet. I hurt my back and working on my car is not an option at the moment.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Good info. Please keep us posted.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i said this....14 months ago the reasons i said it was because of the reasons you now know. next time i'll spell it out more clearly.

on a side note, i hate to hear you got hurt. mend up man, lots of hotrod enjoying weather left!

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Yes, I didn't forget. Back then I didn't realize bias ply are "controlled slip" tires, resulting from the differences of tire construction compared to radial tire design. Or more importantly, I didn't realize drag radials don't like to slip. It is very easy for me to spin tires off the line so I've been trying to find a sweet spot of managed spin, but it turns out that might be an exercise in futility. Bias ply tires are off the table for me (street car) so I want to understand how to make these radials work a little better.

It is beginning to make sense why I have traction from a roll in 1st gear and not off the line. Tires can "dead hook" from a roll because the clutch (and rotating assembly) is already in motion. And I'm starting to figure out that suspension settings don't matter much from a roll. Like Orr89RocZ said, at that point it is pretty much about tire footprint and it appears I have enough of that when tires are in good condition.

Seems that getting off the line boils down to just one thing -- don't slip the tires. That is no small task with my car but at least I now know the objective.

Thanks, bud. House is dirty, lawn is unkept, I can't work on the car. I'm trying to get better, just a slower process than I would like.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

no tire slip off the line means huge clutch slip, or broken parts. can't dead hook a mechanical coupler (as opposed to a fluid coupler like a torque converter) and not expect parts failure. this is why i put an adjustable clutch in the car this year.

skinny z

In the same vein, I'd been asking about which tire which be better suited to my particular combination.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/whee...dial-drag.html

IIRC, the advice was much the same as you've been getting. Stick cars prefer a bias-ply and autos, a radial. That said, it was also inferred that a bias-ply provides good traction with either transmission type. That seems to prove itself out on the 10.9x '67 Chevelle in our group. Class restrictions disallowed the full on slick that was being run and that necessitated a change to a DOT tire. The radials selected couldn't keep up with the more or less stock suspensioned auto trans chassis with 60' times dropping to the 1.8s. 2nd gear shifts would blow the tires off. With the slicks, 60' foots were 1.59 with the ability to lift the front tires.

Just recently I came across this interesting but obviously dated video regarding tests of different track tires.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...cing-tire.html

I still haven't made a decision. (Not that it's terribly important seeing as work will keep me from the track again this year).

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Obviously I know next to nothing about this but I don't know if anything prefers a radial tire. From what I was reading the radial is more temperamental to track conditions and takes more effort with chassis tuning. Seems the people that use radials either have a multi-purpose car, or are racing in a radial tire class.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Back in the day I used biasply M&H racemaster "take no prisoners" compound. They worked very well on the street/track, even drove on them quite a bit but if it rained.... forget going anywhere. I pulled the front wheels off the ground many times, some even leaving a stoplight fairly aggressively next to my friend in his mustang. He's the one that told me it did it.
Now granted I was just a 350 tpi auto but it ran well.