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First thing is dump that washer fluid. Use M1 VP mixed with distilled at 50/50. Next up the nozzle. 360ml is only 5gph. You should be at least at 8gph. Move the turn on to at least 3 psi maybe 4 or lower . You may just leave it the way it is as the better mix and higher gph will bring down the temps.Try this and you will see alot better temps. Timing is very conservative. Iats aside even hot at 160° with true 50/50 meth you could easily run 18° total timing under boost on pump gas. That washer fluid is garbage. It makes a distinct smell when its burned. Real methanol is the way to go. 8$ gallon m1 plus .89 cent distilled a gallon. So you have a one way valve before the nozzle? With a filter? That washer fluid is very dirty. I used to use it as first and my screen filters would fill up quick. Try this site you can get a switch cheap. Search Alcohol injection systems.
Why do I need to dump the wiper fluid? My setup is more for cooling and detonation control. I have low compression 9.5:1 with an LS motor and maybe 10psi boost. Recommended fuel is 91 pump and I run 93. The 30% meth is going to give me a little higher octane but the water will help cool the charge and control detonation. I will have to see how the 175ml handles the charge as I never stay that high that long bc the car is hauling *** lol so its not on long enough to log anything. My next nozzle size is a 375ml I think which would put me in the 750ml flow range I'd suspect. I agree about the turn on pressure. I just ordered a genuine hobbs switch for 2psi NO so it should be turning on at 2psi once I get the new switch in. Yes on the pre filter, I run dual tanks and both have screen taps to catch larger particles, then into a Y to the pump. out of pump goes to a 16psi check valve (to keep boost from pushing fluid back and has an instant on/off spray pattern), then into the flow gauge and then into the snow nozzle with integrated check valve. I was unsure of the check valve pressure rating in the snow nozzle so thats why I run the 16psi check valve. The 16psi check valve also has its own integrated filter as well as the snow jet has a filter built on.
Timing is conservative, only put 40 miles on the new setup and still tuning AFR in open loop. I would like to run a minimum of 15* at WOT. But I have yet to have it higher than 4500rpms in boost and logging.
I use the wiper bc its cheap and easily availble, premixed and ready to go. Getting the real stuff is not going to be easy and that **** is dangerous lol. As long as it works thats fine with me. I do have 2 bottles of HEET that I can mix with wiper fluid to give me a 50/50 mix out of 1 gallon.
Why do I need to dump the wiper fluid? My setup is more for cooling and detonation control. I have low compression 9.5:1 with an LS motor and maybe 10psi boost. Recommended fuel is 91 pump and I run 93. The 30% meth is going to give me a little higher octane but the water will help cool the charge and control detonation. I will have to see how the 175ml handles the charge as I never stay that high that long bc the car is hauling *** lol so its not on long enough to log anything. My next nozzle size is a 375ml I think which would put me in the 750ml flow range I'd suspect. I agree about the turn on pressure. I just ordered a genuine hobbs switch for 2psi NO so it should be turning on at 2psi once I get the new switch in. Yes on the pre filter, I run dual tanks and both have screen taps to catch larger particles, then into a Y to the pump. out of pump goes to a 16psi check valve (to keep boost from pushing fluid back and has an instant on/off spray pattern), then into the flow gauge and then into the snow nozzle with integrated check valve. I was unsure of the check valve pressure rating in the snow nozzle so thats why I run the 16psi check valve. The 16psi check valve also has its own integrated filter as well as the snow jet has a filter built on.
Timing is conservative, only put 40 miles on the new setup and still tuning AFR in open loop. I would like to run a minimum of 15* at WOT. But I have yet to have it higher than 4500rpms in boost and logging.
I use the wiper bc its cheap and easily availble, premixed and ready to go. Getting the real stuff is not going to be easy and that **** is dangerous lol. As long as it works thats fine with me. I do have 2 bottles of HEET that I can mix with wiper fluid to give me a 50/50 mix out of 1 gallon.
Its not dangerous if mixed at 50/50. You keep gallons seperate in a vp container sealed. Washer fluid is low quality for meth injection. It isnt even 30% meth 70 % water. There is other chemicals and cleaning agents in there as well. And its dirty. Ive ran way over 50 gallons through my system and there is alot of particles in the winshield mix. I stopped using it because of that.To check round about your gph instead of guessing is turn on the system for 30 seconds into a container and then measure it and figure it out gph wise. Then take your ratio mix and see where you are meth % gallons vs water % gallons. 50/50 is the standard for safety, one because its not flamable at this ratio, and two its half and half. Even snow sells their mix at this ratio. If your just for cooling and detonation you could just run a water injection. Meth is for the octane boost. Water has more btu cooling than methanol does. But inject to much water and you can bog a motor. Inject too much methanol and it will richen the mix but still burn.But use quality meth, its not in washer fluid. 15 ° total timing under boost is really low. You are loosing alot of hp at that level. Aim for 18 min. Using an aftermarket ecu is the best bet here. Like a holley hp. Once the injection starts the ecu will pull fuel from the injector to compensate to your desired af ratio at that set load/rpm parameter. Buying methanol is easy. Just go to a station that sells vp and ask for it. Use their container to store it. I have a funnel with a built in screen filter. I measure out the mix depending on the size I need to fill. Thats the beauty of having a 3 gallon meth container. Wait till it gets down to about 1 gallon, then dump a whole bottle of distilled and refill with methanol and add that. But you do what you want. Your not getting the desired results of using methanol, im just telling you why its so.
Its not dangerous if mixed at 50/50. You keep gallons seperate in a vp container sealed. Washer fluid is low quality for meth injection. It isnt even 30% meth 70 % water. There is other chemicals and cleaning agents in there as well. And its dirty. Ive ran way over 50 gallons through my system and there is alot of particles in the winshield mix. I stopped using it because of that.To check round about your gph instead of guessing is turn on the system for 30 seconds into a container and then measure it and figure it out gph wise. Then take your ratio mix and see where you are meth % gallons vs water % gallons. 50/50 is the standard for safety, one because its not flamable at this ratio, and two its half and half. Even snow sells their mix at this ratio. If your just for cooling and detonation you could just run a water injection. Meth is for the octane boost. Water has more btu cooling than methanol does. But inject to much water and you can bog a motor. Inject too much methanol and it will richen the mix but still burn.But use quality meth, its not in washer fluid. 15 ° total timing under boost is really low. You are loosing alot of hp at that level. Aim for 18 min. Using an aftermarket ecu is the best bet here. Like a holley hp. Once the injection starts the ecu will pull fuel from the injector to compensate to your desired af ratio at that set load/rpm parameter. Buying methanol is easy. Just go to a station that sells vp and ask for it. Use their container to store it. I have a funnel with a built in screen filter. I measure out the mix depending on the size I need to fill. Thats the beauty of having a 3 gallon meth container. Wait till it gets down to about 1 gallon, then dump a whole bottle of distilled and refill with methanol and add that. But you do what you want. Your not getting the desired results of using methanol, im just telling you why its so.
I think your miss understanding me in some ways.
Didn't say mixed meth is dangerous, mixing it is (not good to get on your skin or eyes etc) but straight meth is very dangerous and storing it you have to be careful. I wouldn't keep it in my house if I had to store it and meth is affected by weather i would assume due to condensation etc.
Another thing is the IAT temps, you realize the temps I'm posting are NOT with the meth activated and flowing? Thus the temps do not reflect the temp drop that meth/water would provide? at 8psi my meth fired for literally 1s if that and I had to let off as i was going 100+Mph on a highway. So the IAT temps are literally with just the supercharger and 18" of pipe right to the TB. I was posting the IAT temps for the OP so he could see the temps I was seeing with no IC/Meth. I would hope the meth would provide a 20-30*F minimum temp drop.
Closest speed shop is over 30 min away from me and it would be a special order. I can't even fill NOS containers without going through the state and getting a license.
-20 blue wiper fluid is 30/70, its pretty proven. No additives besides meth and water and blue dye. You don't buy the Di icer ones etc. But -20 means its a minimum of 20% meth, more likely 30-35%. Most of the time wiper fluid is rated in C* so a -40*C typically has 45-50% methanol. -20*F = -28*C so figure 28% + 5% minimum over = 33% methanol total content. I had wiper fluid in this system before (altho not alot) and it stayed pretty clean. I would never run anything higher than 50/50 bc at 60% it becomes flammable with a 130*F flash point.
I'm not guessing on nozzle flow, I literally can flow test my nozzle at pump pressure and figure out how much the nozzle is flowing. But since I know my 175ml nozzle flows 360ml at full pressure that means its safe to assume that a 375ml nozzle will flow 750ml just based off the above. It would take me 15 min to prove my point but I dont think I need that much nozzle. Since I run the wiper fluid i get a slight bump in octane but its more about the cooling/detonation resistance of the 70% water as thats my main purpose of the kit. I Dont want to put the motor on the brink and then have it rely on the meth to keep it alive.... its not worth the very small amount of power when I could have something that would live under worst case scenarios. At this point in the game its all about longevity and drive-ability. Not gona miss the 30hp at 5500 when I have yet to be above 4500 and run out of road and speed limitations. Then if a fuse pops or pump/line failure the motor will live. I will increase timing as this is still base tuning trying to get AFR's correct and driveability. And I will have about 18* total and have IATs take out neccessary in the warmer temps. So as long as the soon to be added FMIC keeps temps lower and then meth activation I could see max timing provided IATs are low and dont pull timing.
Didn't say mixed meth is dangerous, mixing it is (not good to get on your skin or eyes etc) but straight meth is very dangerous and storing it you have to be careful. I wouldn't keep it in my house if I had to store it and meth is affected by weather i would assume due to condensation etc.
Another thing is the IAT temps, you realize the temps I'm posting are NOT with the meth activated and flowing? Thus the temps do not reflect the temp drop that meth/water would provide? at 8psi my meth fired for literally 1s if that and I had to let off as i was going 100+Mph on a highway. So the IAT temps are literally with just the supercharger and 18" of pipe right to the TB. I was posting the IAT temps for the OP so he could see the temps I was seeing with no IC/Meth. I would hope the meth would provide a 20-30*F minimum temp drop.
Closest speed shop is over 30 min away from me and it would be a special order. I can't even fill NOS containers without going through the state and getting a license.
-20 blue wiper fluid is 30/70, its pretty proven. No additives besides meth and water and blue dye. You don't buy the Di icer ones etc. But -20 means its a minimum of 20% meth, more likely 30-35%. Most of the time wiper fluid is rated in C* so a -40*C typically has 45-50% methanol. -20*F = -28*C so figure 28% + 5% minimum over = 33% methanol total content. I had wiper fluid in this system before (altho not alot) and it stayed pretty clean. I would never run anything higher than 50/50 bc at 60% it becomes flammable with a 130*F flash point.
I'm not guessing on nozzle flow, I literally can flow test my nozzle at pump pressure and figure out how much the nozzle is flowing. But since I know my 175ml nozzle flows 360ml at full pressure that means its safe to assume that a 375ml nozzle will flow 750ml just based off the above. It would take me 15 min to prove my point but I dont think I need that much nozzle. Since I run the wiper fluid i get a slight bump in octane but its more about the cooling/detonation resistance of the 70% water as thats my main purpose of the kit. I Dont want to put the motor on the brink and then have it rely on the meth to keep it alive.... its not worth the very small amount of power when I could have something that would live under worst case scenarios. At this point in the game its all about longevity and drive-ability. Not gona miss the 30hp at 5500 when I have yet to be above 4500 and run out of road and speed limitations. Then if a fuse pops or pump/line failure the motor will live. I will increase timing as this is still base tuning trying to get AFR's correct and driveability. And I will have about 18* total and have IATs take out neccessary in the warmer temps. So as long as the soon to be added FMIC keeps temps lower and then meth activation I could see max timing provided IATs are low and dont pull timing.
I guess I missed some stuff there. On the methanol I wouldnt worry. Been storing it in my garage for years now and no issues. Pure M1 vp. Do the lower turn on and see where it goes. Was refering to the quality of the mix in terms of washer fluid. 20% is low. It does have other things in it besides what you listed. Yes Ive used it. It makes a distinct smell when injected vs m1. Injecting to much water can bog the motor. In all my testing I found that on my system as its different then yours is the furthest down the intake track the best. Mine is a draw through. On yours right after the turbo would be best as you cool down the whole piping and it compounds the effect. Guys even shoot low gph through the compressor for a big decrease in iats. I shoot right through mine but its a screw unit. Just for ***** and giggles I ran a 25gph nozzle for testing and it dropped the gauge so fast way below ambient it was crazy. But the ecu will not compensate for the added fuel on my setup as its tuned for 14gph. If I remember in an 80°day on 10lbs which would equal to at least 180°iats under boost with no intercooling I was seeing way under 80° which theroretically is over a 100° drop in temps. A quick pull over in the side of the road and the blower case was like a ice chest. I wouldnt assume to be honest how much ml or gph your running Id test it. Couple of things affect it. One is the boost pressure pushing back on the fluid trying to come out so you lose psi there. And the psi to overcome the one way valve before the nozzle. So if your running 8psi and usually the valve takes about 15psi or so to open. So right there your losing 23psi pressure. Now a 220psi pump is 197. Give or take. Im interested in seeing your results. When are you getting the hobbs switch?
I guess I missed some stuff there. On the methanol I wouldnt worry. Been storing it in my garage for years now and no issues. Pure M1 vp. Do the lower turn on and see where it goes. Was refering to the quality of the mix in terms of washer fluid. 20% is low. It does have other things in it besides what you listed. Yes Ive used it. It makes a distinct smell when injected vs m1. Injecting to much water can bog the motor. In all my testing I found that on my system as its different then yours is the furthest down the intake track the best. Mine is a draw through. On yours right after the turbo would be best as you cool down the whole piping and it compounds the effect. Guys even shoot low gph through the compressor for a big decrease in iats. I shoot right through mine but its a screw unit. Just for ***** and giggles I ran a 25gph nozzle for testing and it dropped the gauge so fast way below ambient it was crazy. But the ecu will not compensate for the added fuel on my setup as its tuned for 14gph. If I remember in an 80°day on 10lbs which would equal to at least 180°iats under boost with no intercooling I was seeing way under 80° which theroretically is over a 100° drop in temps. A quick pull over in the side of the road and the blower case was like a ice chest. I wouldnt assume to be honest how much ml or gph your running Id test it. Couple of things affect it. One is the boost pressure pushing back on the fluid trying to come out so you lose psi there. And the psi to overcome the one way valve before the nozzle. So if your running 8psi and usually the valve takes about 15psi or so to open. So right there your losing 23psi pressure. Now a 220psi pump is 197. Give or take. Im interested in seeing your results. When are you getting the hobbs switch?
Understood. I'll look into what it would take/cost to get the good meth. And your right about fighting the boost pressure and check valve. I don't think 30psi drop with a 250psi pump is much of an issue but I could see how that would scew the output a smidge. All my flow testing was through the completed system. So it went through all filters and check valves and nozzle like it would. So at that point flow would only be affected/changed by boost since its reading the flow with all check valves in place.
I've read mixed reviews on spraying before a turbo/supercharger. Which by the way I am not turbo'd but running a centrifigual supercharger. Spraying before the turbo or SC can help cool the head unit as well as seal the tiny gaps and make the unit more efficient but has also been found due to such high impeller speeds that the fluid cavitates or causes mini explosions eating away at the impeller. Spraying after the unit before the IC is good to help lower heat soaked ICs but I'd be worried about fluid collecting in the IC. My nozzle is currently like 18" away from the TB. That might change as I just recieved my FMIC kit and I'm already fitting it onto the front of my TA. I honestly might run a dual nozzle setup and run a small nozzle before the IC to help if needed. I have the jet, and another nozzle holder and a Tee fitting. But I want to see how the FMIC is going to work with the meth.
Last night tearing the charge pipe off I realized a big issue that I didn't see before. The nozzle is set back too deep in the Bung welded in the charge pipe causing the spray pattern to immediately hit the inside of the bung and cause a flow of fluid to ooze into the charge pipe with a hard stream hitting the opposite side of the pipe. No fine mist spray cone pattern like I thought I was getting when testing the system outside of the charge pipe. Nothing I could do as the bung itself was deep and the nozzle would allow any deeper. I had to plug that bung and run a modified 3/8" NPt reducer in another bung next to it. I verified the spray pattern is now a nice cone of mist. So that should work correctly now.
I've started mounting the FMIC and will see how it does. Fixed the meth injection and relocating the piping. The new Hobbs 2psi switch is on the way and should have it next week. Due to the new piping I have to space the tab farther out so the charge pipe clears the alternator. So I purchased a 1" TB spacer not for the intended use but it will push it out far enough to clear the alt pulley and that's going to slow me down as it could take over a week to get here due to the holiday.
Will report back with my findings. But I hope the 2psi switch will allow enough injection time for me to see a drop with the meth on its own.
Last edited by customblackbird; 05-27-2016 at 09:05 PM.
Whatever you do dont install a nozzle before an intercooler. It will pool. And air to air only gets as cold as ambient temp. So injecting it before will cool that charge then when it hits the intercooler it will actually warm it back up. I run a methanol through my supercharger. Alot of guys do. You just have to stay at or under 50% methanol. I havent had issues in 3 years. Try it. Then after a full boost run put your hand on the head unit and you will see what Im talking about. On that site they have adjustable boost switches too
Whatever you do dont install a nozzle before an intercooler. It will pool. And air to air only gets as cold as ambient temp. So injecting it before will cool that charge then when it hits the intercooler it will actually warm it back up. I run a methanol through my supercharger. Alot of guys do. You just have to stay at or under 50% methanol. I havent had issues in 3 years. Try it. Then after a full boost run put your hand on the head unit and you will see what Im talking about. On that site they have adjustable boost switches too
Are you running a blower on the 421" motor or on the old combo?
Thats a really nice setup on the prometh link! and its $160 lol but its a nice option and not terribly expensive.
Got alot of work done on the car this weeked. FMIC is installed! Was kind of annoying to do but if it helps lower cruising IATs I'd be happy. New 2psi pressure switch came in and got that installed and wired up. Redid the water/meth setup and BOV location. I also redid the Meth feed lines since Ive moved the nozzle location. I did some reading on placement of the nozzle before the SC and have read that its safe due to the superchargers slower impeller speed (turbo is not a good idea). I installed 2 nozzles now and have the original 175ml pre TB about 24" before the TB, and the second nozzle i believe is a 100ml and spraying that about 3" from the Supercharger inlet. I cut a hole in the silicone coupler and put the nozzle right in the silicone since it won't see boost and just vacuum it will be fine. It was a tight fit and still screwed it into the coupler so its not going anywhere. I understand about the IC heating the cooled SC air but honestly this car will see all street driving and will get hot. If the air going into the IC is cooler the cooler won't do much esp if ambient is 100*F in the summer, but the shot of meth after the IC will cool it back down before entering the motor. If the IC can help reduce IATs out of boost (meth activation) then id say its worth it... esp giving the shitty air flow of the TA bumper. My rad/trans/IC is about 1.5" lower than stock so it gets a little more Air flow than a stock setup.
I fired up the system and verified I'm now getting about 700ml of flow with both nozzles. Pump is also a 220psi pump with internal bypass. I had to rework my gauge and change out the settings bezel/gauge face from a 500ml to the 1000ml setup. I re-plotted the water/meth fail safe flow zone and all is good.
FMIC wasn't too crazy, running the pipe on the driver side was a PITA and required small cutting but mounting the IC was pretty straight forward. I then went to home depot and got hardware/brackets to mount the IC and picked up a 3" test plug and 3" rubber cap so I could pressure test the system. I modified the test plug and drilled a hole, threaded in air compresor quick disconnect and tested the IC to 20psi and found no leaks, then tested the whole system from the SC to the TB and tested to 12psi and fixed any leaking couplers etc. I dont think I'm going to get 12psi now with the IC but would be happy with 8-10psi of cooler air. The test coupler setup I made worked great and only cost me about $9.
Got the car back together and just waiting for the TB spacer so my charge pipe clears the alternator pulley.
Worst case is the IC does more harm than good and I remove it, go back to the original setup with the short charge pipe and 2 couplers and run the pre SC nozzle and the other and call it a day. Prob should of did that before spending the money, time and cutting into the car to do all this without testing the pre SC nozzle. But that wouldn't affect my out of boost IAT temps which is killing my timing due to high IATs.
Last edited by customblackbird; 05-31-2016 at 01:15 PM.
BOV that came with the kit. Referenced to manifold vacuum via vacuum block.
I have a large car show this Saturday. Car needs to be running as I paid for a spot lol. Well see about testing but I would hope I might have time friday to drive it around alittle and see what its doing now. Depends when the TB space comes in so I can finish it all up.
I just tried to tear the steering box apart to preload the bearings again as I have a good bit of slop and I dont think it helped much but that was a PITA. I still need to do an alignment.
BOVs new home.
Pre TB meth nozzle.
Charge pipe interference. This is why I need the spacer.
Last edited by customblackbird; 06-01-2016 at 02:46 PM.
Spacer came in today. Ended up only being 1/2" thick but it worked. I don't like the design so I'm going to orders true 1" thick spacer and used oring seal and not a paper gasket. Got it all together and ready to rock. Hopefully I can get it out tmrw for a test run.
A lot more piping with the intercooler. Gotta see if the hood closes lol.
Finally got to drive the car but have no data log as I didn't have my computer in the car for the car show.
A couple of things:
No idea what IATS where but...
Got a weird ticking or flutter on light load/throttle. I did change the source for the BOV to the boost block. I switched it back the the intake and we'll see if that was the issue. My engine temps rose quite a bit tho. Everything seemed good earlier today and it was still warm but driving today my engine temps which were like 178*F went to 180-200*F depending on driving and took awhile
To drop after going down a grade with no throttle. I'm not super happy about that so the FMIC might be coming out but want to verify with a datalog as I have a discrepancy between the PCM coolant temp gauge and the speed hit coolant temp gauge that I can see. Usually the speed hit is showing a 10-15*F lower temp that what the PCM is seeing so that's not good lol.
My supercharger heat soaked to 151*F via the IR temp gun, intercooler piping in engine bay at 131*F and the FMIC read 93*F inlet and 90*F outlet.
Meth switch came on right at 2psi and stayed on. Def got flow and car didn't bog or anything. Had my highest boost reading thus far 11.8psi l, I saw flash on the gauge on the highway on ramp. AEM flow gauge confirmed I had lots of meth/water flow so I know it pushed fluid. Everything seemed great otherwise the much hotter engine temps. Not sure if it was the hot idling and it was mid to high 80s today and humid.
Wish I was able to log but didn't happen and it's going to rain tmrw. Want to confirm IAT temps in log with FMIC otherwise it's coming out and I'm just going to run the 2 meth nozzles. I have a 1" TB spacer coming and I'll drill and tap a hole for meth that way it doesn't hit 2 hard 90* turns before entering the TB. It also will be behind the TB blade so that's prob a good thing and I'd keep the smaller nozzle in front of the SC.
Nothing else to report without a log and car felt good in boost. Going to look at adding timing.
Can I just observe a few things? On my car a twin screw is one of the hottest heat soaking superchargers you can run bar none. On a hot day it wont get over 160 iat idling and light cruise and even light throttle. On the highway my cold air intake even brings the temps down into the 130 range. And Im reading this right after the supercharger before it goes into the lower intake one of the hottest places on the engine. I have no intercooler and the mass of all that metal heats up and never cools down hood closed.For you to be reading that high on a centrifical , which have way less mass and do run alot cooler,esp with a fmic and methanol you are def having issues. On a procharged setup which I ran on my camaro way back the intercooler sits horizontal right above the air dam under the nose and a scoop was attached to ram air through it. Most likely your intercooler is way to small or just constructed in a way that its not rejecting heat fast enough. What brand is it?I still think you are still under nozzled. Its not recommended to inject through an intercooler too btw.They will fight each other temp wise. I do nozzles in gph. You should be around 7-10 gph. Which is 650-940lph. When your nozzles are rated say 175lph you have to know if thats rated at your pump pressure. So a 175lph nozzel will flow 175lph at 220 psi. You are doubling your flow numbers for some reason and getting X from a 375. Another issue is gauge and even the sensor reading it. I can tell you if your not using a thermocouple you can throw all those numbers out the window. They are not accurate. I can speak from exp. They dont react fast enough and they are not rated to be used in "wet" environments. They go on na cars that never see anything wet in the manifold.
If your using washer fluid your injecting 70% water and 30% methanol. I know your situation. But the industry standard almost everyone uses is 50/50. Real meth and distilled. Snow sells their own mix as does devils own. Your way to hot on an intercooled setup esp with methanol and a bypass. Bypass will dump the air fast so the supercharger doesnt keep beating the heat into the charge. I assume your reading the temp out of the upper plenum? Where are you drawing the air for the supercharger? In the fender? Heat gun is somewhat accurate but I wouldnt base anything off that.
Im trying to picture your setup. If you have a bov here is how it should look. Bov right before tb and methanol nozzle between the two. Only reason is when you let off you dont want to be spraying all that residual injection all over the engine bay. If you did a small injection at the blower thats fine, like a 1gph or 2. But if your injecting a 7 before a bov thats a mess. To be honest a quick and rudimentary way to tell if its working "correctly" the injection system that is, it is cooling is get the car up to temp , get the iats up to operating range. Pull over put your hand on the top of the plenum, or heat gun it, best both. Go for a full boost run. Immediately pull over and recheck. It should be ice cold. If not your under nozzled. Can you post pics of everything. Intake side, routing of pipes, intercooler , bov location and meth nozzle location?
Can I just observe a few things? On my car a twin screw is one of the hottest heat soaking superchargers you can run bar none. On a hot day it wont get over 160 iat idling and light cruise and even light throttle. On the highway my cold air intake even brings the temps down into the 130 range. And Im reading this right after the supercharger before it goes into the lower intake one of the hottest places on the engine. I have no intercooler and the mass of all that metal heats up and never cools down hood closed.For you to be reading that high on a centrifical , which have way less mass and do run alot cooler,esp with a fmic and methanol you are def having issues. On a procharged setup which I ran on my camaro way back the intercooler sits horizontal right above the air dam under the nose and a scoop was attached to ram air through it. Most likely your intercooler is way to small or just constructed in a way that its not rejecting heat fast enough. What brand is it?I still think you are still under nozzled. Its not recommended to inject through an intercooler too btw.They will fight each other temp wise. I do nozzles in gph. You should be around 7-10 gph. Which is 650-940lph. When your nozzles are rated say 175lph you have to know if thats rated at your pump pressure. So a 175lph nozzel will flow 175lph at 220 psi. You are doubling your flow numbers for some reason and getting X from a 375. Another issue is gauge and even the sensor reading it. I can tell you if your not using a thermocouple you can throw all those numbers out the window. They are not accurate. I can speak from exp. They dont react fast enough and they are not rated to be used in "wet" environments. They go on na cars that never see anything wet in the manifold.
If your using washer fluid your injecting 70% water and 30% methanol. I know your situation. But the industry standard almost everyone uses is 50/50. Real meth and distilled. Snow sells their own mix as does devils own. Your way to hot on an intercooled setup esp with methanol and a bypass. Bypass will dump the air fast so the supercharger doesnt keep beating the heat into the charge. I assume your reading the temp out of the upper plenum? Where are you drawing the air for the supercharger? In the fender? Heat gun is somewhat accurate but I wouldnt base anything off that.
Im trying to picture your setup. If you have a bov here is how it should look. Bov right before tb and methanol nozzle between the two. Only reason is when you let off you dont want to be spraying all that residual injection all over the engine bay. If you did a small injection at the blower thats fine, like a 1gph or 2. But if your injecting a 7 before a bov thats a mess. To be honest a quick and rudimentary way to tell if its working "correctly" the injection system that is, it is cooling is get the car up to temp , get the iats up to operating range. Pull over put your hand on the top of the plenum, or heat gun it, best both. Go for a full boost run. Immediately pull over and recheck. It should be ice cold. If not your under nozzled. Can you post pics of everything. Intake side, routing of pipes, intercooler , bov location and meth nozzle location?
Not a problem, observe away! I can't speak for my IAT temps since I wasn't logging. This was just the info I collected driving to and from a car show.
No idea what IAT temps were only can give you information about IR temp readings after I took when parked. This was a brutal day tho, high humidity, no airflow/wind and an 88+ temp day. I got the sunburn to prove it. IATS could have been a lot cooler than the surface temp of the components due to the meth but u gotta look at it like this. My centri was heat soaked to 150*F and intake piping to 131, intercooler was only 93* inlet and 90* outlet. This was with about 15min of driving after a boost run so no methanol for at least 15min before before parking the car. This is a lot of idling time at lights and sitting waiting for my wife to move her car so I could slowly back my car in on an incline grade. So I'm not shocked by the temps of the engine compartment esp when this was the hottest day it's been out and I literally sat for 30min in bumper to bumper traffic with light throttle causing a ton of heat to build. That being said this is the hottest this car has ever gotten and I'm not a fan, that can also attribute to the super high heat soak temps of everything in the engine bay since the motor and rad was now running 22*F warmer. Still 190-200*F engine temp is by no means over heating it's just higher than the 165-178 I'm used to seeing.
I didn't spend a lot on the FMIC as I know the flow issues with the TAs. It's a speed daddy 31x12x3.25 with 3" inlet and outlet. All tubing is also speed daddy 3" and couplers etc plus some extras I got to make sure I had enough to make it fit. It's a cheap IC but didn't look horribly when I inspected. Fin count was prob a bit low but didn't look bad and passages looked large and straight through. Plus I pressure tested it and it didn't leak. Are you able to see the pics I've been posting? If not I'll do some more. Mine is mounted in front of my trans cooler by like 3/4" clearance, which is behind the rad with roughly the same clearance. I know it's blocking air as everything from the trans to my engine temps rose the same amount. But the IC was only 93* which is within 10* of ambient when the motor was at 190-200 and everything else was heat soaked from 131-150. If the IATS were higher the IC would be hotter no?
I will look into a true 50/50 mix but for now I'm sticking with the 70/30 wiper fluid. Only bc I want to figure this all out.
Intake air comes from driver side by firewall, not the best place as the tube sits above hot headers but I had no choice due to the setup design. I will prob get the header coated at some point to cut down on radiant heat. The hope is to pull some cooler air from that corner as its open to the wheel well air.
IAT sensor is located In the intake plenum right after the TB in a EGR block off plate. I need the IAT for motor operation so it's staying but will look into the Kthermo for more accurate readings.
I have to calculate GPH flow for you but my nozzles are 175cc and 100cc which flow 750ish cc according to my AEM flow gauge at 100% pump injection which is 220psi. Maybe I'll put each nozzle In a jug and run it for 60s and then multiply by 60 to get you a measurement.
BOV is located in pass battery tray and that's where the bungs are for the one meth nozzle. I didn't put them there... The supercharger manufacture did. It's a 3/8npt and 1/8" not port for a meth nozzle and IAT sensor. I plugged the 1/8 due to being too deep for spray pattern and use the 3/8" for my pre TB nozzle. So yes it's right in line with the BOV. This nozzle needs to make 2 hard 90* turns before entering the TB so I'm thinking of relocating the nozzle to a TB spacer behind the TB which is within 3" of the IAT sensor.
Remember I have no IAT temp readings, just heat soak temps and while I would agree that the 150* compressor is not good I have no idea what IATS were going through it 15min before, but if IC is at 93* I doubt the IATS were much higher than that. But this is also 15min after a boost run and 15 min of coasting and street driving till
Parking. I need to get a log to be sure. But I'm not a fan of my new engine temps lol
Here are some pics
Intercooler sits 1.5" lower than stock rad location as does the trans cooler and rad.
BOV location above pass battery tray, brass fitting in the left of the BOV is the pre TB meth nozzle next to the 1/8" not plugged bung.
Pre supercharger nozzle 100cc
Whole setup at the show. U can see the BOV and meth nozzle almost mounted directly across from each other by the whiper fluid tank. These were pre welded bungs and I just used what worked.
Well let me first say your engine compartment is beautiful.Im trying to see how big that intercooler is. It looks small. Here is a quick link to a 3 core procharger setup I found for reference with the nose off.
Just to picture how big that one is. Has a scoop on the bottom and the radiator gets fed still some by the air dam and through front nose. I can see why your engine temps went up. The radiator is sucking hot air fright off the intercooler. On the cc to gpg issue 63cc equals 1 gph. Id you go by nozzle number you are at about 4.5gph. But then you say the aem gauge says 750cc. Which 11. Somthing gph.
Look at this. You said the day was hot high 80s. You said the supercharger temps are 150 or so. So reading the temp going into intercooler (93) the meth is working comming out the intercooler cant cool it anymore because air to air can only cool as cold as ambiant outside air. When I ran my 355 procharged I had a stock radiator, still do. With the dual fan setup. No ac condensor which does make a diff however. But I had that big 3 core procharger intercooler. And if I wanted 170° temps it ran that.
How is that intercooler rated? What Im asking is how do you size it? Procharger was all 3 inch in and out pipe. It seems like a decent unit. Maybe your thrown off by the temp out and in are close? I think its the methanol fooling you. If the supercharger was 150 and the outlet was 90 no methanol on a high 80°day Id say its doing its job. Are your holes 1/8npt? For the methanol? If your up to it Ill send you some nozzles for comparison. Take the hose of with nozzle, activate it and watch the spray and volume for quick reference. I have alot of devils own pieces. Can prob send a nozzle holder, but I know the plactic pipe push lock fittings are the same. Ill see what I have lying around.
I always put pipe dope on them if Im taking them in and out too. Ok if you have snow nozzles 175ml/m nozzle is 2.77gph. A 100ml/m nozzle is 1.58gph. I think your AEM gauge is telling you you have 700 something cc of flow. There is something going on in the calculations Im missing. Lmk on the nozzle. When I run your numbers through devils own calculator it says a 10gph in needed. Or 940ml/m. Snow rates ther nozzles at I dont know what psi. Mine are rated at 200 or 220 psi. Lmk on the nozzle.
Well let me first say your engine compartment is beautiful.Im trying to see how big that intercooler is. It looks small. Here is a quick link to a 3 core procharger setup I found for reference with the nose off.
Just to picture how big that one is. Has a scoop on the bottom and the radiator gets fed still some by the air dam and through front nose. I can see why your engine temps went up. The radiator is sucking hot air fright off the intercooler. On the cc to gpg issue 63cc equals 1 gph. Id you go by nozzle number you are at about 4.5gph. But then you say the aem gauge says 750cc. Which 11. Somthing gph.
Look at this. You said the day was hot high 80s. You said the supercharger temps are 150 or so. So reading the temp going into intercooler (93) the meth is working comming out the intercooler cant cool it anymore because air to air can only cool as cold as ambiant outside air. When I ran my 355 procharged I had a stock radiator, still do. With the dual fan setup. No ac condensor which does make a diff however. But I had that big 3 core procharger intercooler. And if I wanted 170° temps it ran that.
How is that intercooler rated? What Im asking is how do you size it? Procharger was all 3 inch in and out pipe. It seems like a decent unit. Maybe your thrown off by the temp out and in are close? I think its the methanol fooling you. If the supercharger was 150 and the outlet was 90 no methanol on a high 80°day Id say its doing its job. Are your holes 1/8npt? For the methanol? If your up to it Ill send you some nozzles for comparison. Take the hose of with nozzle, activate it and watch the spray and volume for quick reference. I have alot of devils own pieces. Can prob send a nozzle holder, but I know the plactic pipe push lock fittings are the same. Ill see what I have lying around.
I always put pipe dope on them if Im taking them in and out too. Ok if you have snow nozzles 175ml/m nozzle is 2.77gph. A 100ml/m nozzle is 1.58gph. I think your AEM gauge is telling you you have 700 something cc of flow. There is something going on in the calculations Im missing. Lmk on the nozzle. When I run your numbers through devils own calculator it says a 10gph in needed. Or 940ml/m. Snow rates ther nozzles at I dont know what psi. Mine are rated at 200 or 220 psi. Lmk on the nozzle.
Thank u! It's still not done, threw it together over the winter with a baby on the way who's now out and limits my available time!
I just tested the system to get an actual measurement for you. I removed both nozzles and put them in containers and ran the system at 12.5v for 1min. I combined both into a coolant and it's a 1/2quart between the 2. That means when I convert it that both nozzles are flowing 7.5 GPH together with 220psi pump busy at only 12.5v. I would figure alittle more at 14v.
Here is a pic of the flow gauge with it running after 30s or so. It says 650cc but I know it should be higher.
Intercooler is rated about 800hp according to eBay lol but from what I've read if your under 600hp it does well. My blower maxes out at 1150cfm or a tick over 700hp depending. The cooler overall is 31x12x3.25 but the core is only 23.5x11x3.25.
Yea that's why I'm confused since I have no datalog I can't verify IAT temps but if the IC is only at 93 and ambient is like 85ish then I'd say it's doing ok. But wouldn't the inlet be higher like closer to the 150 of the super charger? I think it's weird that the inlet was 93 and outlet was 90 but the supercharger was so warm. My only guess is that the methanol did such a good job right at the supercharger that the temps were cooler than ambient and the IC warmed it back up or all the high downhill coasting before parking cooled the charge with just the IC and since I wasn't in boost or so for 5 min before parking that I wasn't heating up the air charge and thus the IC was cooling due to the low load.
I'll let you know about the nozzles. If Devils own is saying I need 900+ml then I might have to run a 375 nozzle and the 100 pre supercharger.
Tried to get voltage higher than 12.5 and no luck even with a 10amp charger, 50amps was too high and it auto shut off. Either way the 175 and 100ml nozzles are putting out 600-650ml at 220psi according to the gauge.
Just swapped out the 175ml nozzle for a 375ml and now I'm getting 850-875ml of flow via the flow gauge. Measured it out to 3/4 of a quart with both nozzles on for 1 min. Which means now I'm getting 11.5 GPH of flow with The 375 and 100 nozzles. Here's the proof
I know about pooling in the IC but that's why I put the smallest 100ml nozzle I figure it will be absorbed before getting to the IC and being able to puddle.
I could swap the 100 for a 175ml nozzle pre supercharger but I'd be worried about pooling. But it would def get me the 950-1000ml of flow you said I needed. Gona research how much I actually need tho.
Do you see any issues injecting behind the TB blade? I know meth doesn't like to make hard bends as it sticks to the walls of the bends/tubing.
I still might rip out the FMIC only bc the hotter engine temps aren't really helping even if lowering IATS. I don't want to hear soak everything just to cool it down. Then I could run the 175 pre supercharger and the 375 behind the TB with no issues of pooling and hot engine temps. It's a waste of $200 and a weekend but live and learn. But then I'd have to deal with high IATS out of meth activation.... Ugh.
I just calculated the 875ml a min to gallons and it's like 13.5 GPH according to the gauge. Actual flow is pretty close to that so I figure the gauge must be pretty accurate.
I just uploaded a new tune and increased max timing to 18* at 4K and beyond, all timing up to that point was also increased slightly. This is 2-3* average higher in the higher rpm ranges. I also reduced IAT retard considerably starting at -1* at 130*F IATS. Also trying to figure out this issue with hot idle where my idle rpm goes up like 100-200rpms when hot and won't go down. TPS % stays up too but the throttle doesn't seem to be hanging physically. Tried reducing idle increase and leveling it idle rpm tables.
Decided to take the car to work, first time! This way I can get a log both ways. Only issue is that morning traffic won't allow much high rpm boost logs. But it will show me how hot everything is getting below boost. Here's the sum of whats happening.
Started out warming up in the driveway.
Ambient is 72*F this morning (cool morning as we got a ton of rain yesterday) so low humidity too.
startup/warmup
Ambient = 72*F
IAT = 68*F
Coolant = 79*F
Peak of warmup before driving
Ambient = 72*
IAT = 70*F
Coolant = 131*F
Light driving
Ambient = 72*
IAT = 72*F
Coolant = 140*F
Medium driving up to 3500rpms uphill grades coolant almost up to temp
Ambient = 72*F
IAT = 81*F
Coolant = 171*F
25min total driving some traffic sitting, speeds below 50mph, one light 2.3psi boost blip
Ambient = 72*F
IAT = 113*F
Coolant = 174*F
Coolant temps never got higher than 176/178*F, car didn't sit much in traffic. Just a few long lights. I will say after looking over the log quickly The FMIC did drop IAT temps slightly over some brief moments. IATS up to 104*F and then dropped to 102, then 100*F and fluctuated between 100 - 104 back and forth for a little while (probably downhill coasting).
Side note My idle hung again, starting and idling TPS% shows 0.0% and .55v TPS with a 600rpm idle. Then after heating up TPS% stays stuck at 13.7%, .57v TPS with a 730rpm idle. I can seem to get rid of it.
I have no conclusive tests for actual IAT temps or even IR gun tests as I didn't take the gun with me. I will however get them when I go home after work and will log again. Hopefully I can get alittle more of a boost run depending on the time and traffic to see how the meth affects the IAT sensor/charge temp. On the light boost run it felt strong but thats also bc I was up to 17* spark vs the 13* it prob would have been. So take it for what it is at this point with the new info.I do however think the IAT might be getting heat soaked a smidge in in the intake as its mounted in a billet block off plate perhaps. BUt it was good to see the engine temps stayed below 180* even tho it was a crisp 72*F outside lol.
Got a decent log on the ride home, stayed late at work so their was less traffic on the highway.
TPS % is still giving me a problem, I tried resetting the TPS but unplugging and turn the key on for 30s then plug it back in. It zero'd the TPS % at cold idle which it is normally. But it got to 14% within minutes and stayed if not increased slightly TPS voltage stayed consistent at .55v at idle.
Car felt pretty good when in boost with the added timing. The FMIC or the added and now properly working water/meth is causing mid 10s on AFR while in boost with the meth on. So I'm going to have to lean out the VE table out from about 120kpa up. Ambient temp as 82*F out but it was very hot today and sunny, car sat out in the sun all day so it was still warm when I popped the hood before starting.
IATS actually went up and down to like 100*F depending on driving condition until first boost run.
Boost starting IAT 106 *F
IAT 2 seconds into boost was 104*F
IAT 4 seconds into boost was 102*F
Then I was out of boost and within the next 5s it was at 95*F and 15s later i was at 82 then temps started to climb.
Engine temps ended at 185*F
SC head unit was 143*F
SC outlet was 132
SC inlet above headers was 143
IC inlet was 86
IC outlet was 85
IAT sensor mounting block off plate was 124.7
IAT reading at engine **** off was 120* charge temp, after sitting a few min IAT temps with the key on was 135.
I feel like the FMIC is working but at the cost of heating the motor up.
So heres the plan. My IAT temps are probably not accurate so I'm trying to figure out how to get a Kthermo gauge with probe installed. But I think I'm going to remove the FMIC for further testing. Personally I'm not a fan of the FMIC and my engine temps and sure it was a waste of $250 and a weekend.
So here's the plan. I removed the 3.5" SC inlet pipe and crudely fabbed up a aluminum heat shield to shield 90% of the inlet pipe from the engine/header heat. I snapped a photo of the inside of the inlet pipe where the 100ml nozzle was installed and spraying. It left a white residue/mark on the inside of the silicone coupler. So heat shield is installed. I can hear a chugging under light load/throttle that goes away with heavier gas almost like an exhaust leak at light throttle... I think its something with the IC and bypass valve being weird. But I'm going to remove my heatshield and check header bolts and for any leaks.
Now I'm going to remove the FMIC and run the original setup with the pipe straight from the SC to the TB. My 1" spacer should be in today where I will drill and tap it for a nozzle. That way I can have the nozzle spray behind the TB right in the intake. I ordered a 2nd IAT sensor to put in the charge pipe or have as a spare. Since I'm unsure if the IAT in the intake isn't getting extra heat soaked.
Now I'm going to change the meth setup slightly. Im keeping both nozzles at the moment (100ml pre SC and 375ml post TB) but I'm going set it up as a dual stage system. Since I want to lower the cruising IATs as well as boost I'm going to set the 100ml nozzle to come in at lower vacuum with its own dedicated switch (my original snow performance vacuum switch) which is adjustable from 18" to 0" vacuum, prob set it for like 8" or so so that it comes on pretty regularly to help cool the SC head unit and possibly the overall intake charge to keep it within range. The small amount also shouldn't affect or bog the motor I dont think a check valve sill prevent siphoning and dribble. Then the 2nd nozzle located in the TB spacer will have a NX meth solenoid which will be activated by the 2psi pressure switch, since the system will be on already with the other nozzle spraying since 8" or so the solenoid will open and the 2nd nozzle will spray the boost cooling/detonation control. The solenoid will then act as the checkvalve for the 2nd nozzle and prevent siphoning. This setup will allow me to use both nozzles at different times and hopefully allow me to control out of boost IAT temps. I'm going to blow through more fluid but the 7qts capacity will help with how often I have to fill it. Now the $2/gal wiper fluid will be more cost effective vs $35 for 4/gal or $9 a gallon.
FWIW Snow nozzles are rated at 40psi and Im right in the range required for 550fwhp which they recommend 476ml/cc, my 100 + 375 =475ml which is perfect! My only issue is the 100ml pre SC will more than likely already be evaporated from the SC temp/compressor and thus Im really only seeing 375ml at the TB. So I might end up stepping the pre SC nozzle to 175ml if I need to down the road esp if I need extra cooling of IATs around town. (SEE ATTACHED CHART!)
Last edited by customblackbird; 06-07-2016 at 01:56 PM.
Where is your iat located? Mine is in the steel intake pipe about 20 inches from the throttle body and I get iat's of 100 or so when driving and they creep higher the longer i sit.
subscribed to this thread as i was going to get a meth kit next on the list
Where is your iat located? Mine is in the steel intake pipe about 20 inches from the throttle body and I get iat's of 100 or so when driving and they creep higher the longer i sit.
subscribed to this thread as i was going to get a meth kit next on the list
My IAT is located in the intake behind the TB. The stock 5.3 intake has a very large hole for the EGR which they sell billet plugs for in retrofits. I drilled and tapped it for 3/8" npt for the sensor which is an open cage style. The only issue is that due to it being in the engine it heat soaks I think since the IR temp was so close to IAT readings that's possibly contributing to the readings. The nice thing is that it's located in billet aluminum (small peice) and the stock intake is plastic which is very good at not conducting heat.
My IAT location is actually cooler than the charge pipe according to my readings and mine is all aluminum. Your steel pipe is not helping.
I have no complaints about the meth system thus far and it seems to be working really well. So well I'm planning to just run that.
I missed posting the pics earlier. See pics.
Last edited by customblackbird; 06-07-2016 at 10:16 PM.
Spacer differences, black is coming off as u Can see it fits inside intake opening this decreasing the actual opening size... No thanks.
IAT sensor location from TB opening in intake. Open cage design in recess so it might not actually get "wet" from meth injection and skew readings.
New TB spacer mockup for nozzle placement drilling and tapping. It's tight but going on bottom or on driver side. U can also see IAT location in EGR block off plate right behind the TB.
Waiting on:
New TPS sensor
New IAT sensor
NX meth solenoid
New EGR block off plate
New cheap IAC valve as spare
Removed all the FMIC tubing, cleaned the TB even more. Sprayed the IAC down and passageways. Removed the TPS sensor.
Drilled and tapped the spacer for the meth nozzle and installed the nozzle. Moved battery back to stock location. Mocked up new spacer + TB and original charge pipe. Plugged both bungs in charge pipe (1/8" and 3/8") I might be swapping the new IAT into the 3/8" charge pipe bung but haven't decided if I want to keep the one in the intake which will prob get wet from new nozzle location in TB spacer. Or run the one in the charge pipe which wouldn't get as wet (just the pre SC nozzle). What do you guys think?
I modified the SC inlet heat shield and checked for exhaust leaks but didn't see any carbon. I retorqed exhaust bolts to 18ftlbs and some were a smidge loose on both sides.
Found my original snow performance vacuum switch and set it for 7-8" vacuum activation for pre SC nozzle. Point being the system will turn on in low vacuum and activate small 100ml nozzle pre SC and hopefully cool the SC and IAT pre boost. That way I don't waste meth fluid and still have high cruising IATS. Since the system will already be on the solenoid is stopping meth in the TB nozzle which will be activated via the 2psi Hobbs switch currently controlling everything. So essentially it's a 2 stage staggered meth setup. It should also help with any bogging like a progressive kit since 1 nozzle will be on before hand so it doesn't just dump all its load at once.
Just updating even tho I will prob only post my results as I've jacked the thread enough.
New water meth lines plumbed, just need to wire the solenoid for the 2psi nozzle and the activation with the vacuum switch. I'll prob clean this up alittle more down the road but for now it will work. Still need to pull out the intercooler.
Installed new TPS sensor and the cleaned TB and IAC. Not sure if I'm going to run the new IAT in the charge pipe or in the intake. Got a few goodies coming to finish off the install.
Ended up spending $200 ugh on what should be definitive proof of actual high accurate IAT readings/temp. Spent $160 on a new innovate MTX-D EGT gauge as well as the connector harness to my innovate PSB-1 WB02/boost gauge. So I'll have a working high quality EGT gauge in the intake track to measure actual IAT temps. Gauge/sensor is 60 samples a sec I believe and accurate from 32-1600*F. And when connected to my PSB-1 I can datalog via log works (seperate from my HPT logs but oh well). The MTX-D gauge and PSB-1 will connect together and give me IAT temp, RPM and boost/vacuum in that seperate log. So I will still know Where I was RPM wise and boost and where I was IAT wise even tho I won't know when the meth was activated but I should see the drop in temps or be able to tell depending on what vacuum or boost I was to which nozzle was activated. Gauge and wiring harness won't be here till next week.
So to recap:
100ml noozle pre SC activated at 6-7" vacuum
375 nozzle activated at 2psi via solenoid
What do you guys think about IAT and EGT location? I can leave the IAT in the intake but it's going to get slammed by the TB nozzle spray pattern and run the EGT in the charge pipe 6" before the TB so the EGT will only pick up charge temp of 100ml nozzle. Or swap the 2 and run the IAT in the charge pipe (where it will get the least contact with water/meth) and run the EGT in the intake which will see the total charge plug get wet from the 375 nozzle. Or I can plug the intake port and run the IAT and EGT in the charge pipe where both will see the least fluid. The TB nozzle will just mean actual temps will be less than what both sensors are seeing.
Ripped out all the FMIC and made some changes. First hurdle was I wired up the meth stage 1 100ml nozzle to be activated at 6-7" vacuum. Little did I realize that with the engine off but key on the system activated since it's showing 0" lol. So I had to think outside the box for arming the system. Instructions say to wire in a manual kill/activation switch... But I'm not a fan of having to remember to turn something on and off everytime I start the car. It dawned on me to run a oil pressure safety switch to arm the system. No engine no oil pressure no meth activation. Shut the engine off and the system deactivates. My only concern is the cranking and shut off that the system might arm and Fire briefly when oil
Pressure builds but not running enough to pull enough vacuum. This isn't too bad as long as it's not on for too long but think of it as a self priming mode lol.
2nd stage is solenoid activated by the 2psi switch which is a 375ml nozzle in the TB spacer.
So the good news is I will finally have dead accurate IAT temps constantly. Innovate MTX-D EGT gauge mounted in charge tube should give me accurate readings 60 samples a sec with 3*F accuracy. pITA running the probe an wiring for it to reach. Removed my dash to replace trans temp with EGT and move trans temp to pillar. Good news is I can datalog EGT temps with boost/vacuum, RPM, boost via the PSB-1 so I'll have real world data logs. Had a horrible time getting the EGT gauge configured with a serial cable and my new Windows 10 laptop... Can't believe innovate uses serial cable still! WTF! Their gauges are awesome tho so I deal.
I relocated the IAT to the charge tube next to the EGT probe so they should see the same air temps and I can verify differences in temp readings. Verified 75*F ambient temps tonight and EGT was showing 75*F whoop whoop!
Installed a new TPS sensor and cleaned the TB theroughly and IAC.
For reference the 100ml nozzle flows 360ish and the 375 should flow 500ish. I have a total flow of 875 according to the gauge.
Hoping to get the car out for a drive Friday to get some logs.
IAT sensor on the right , EGT on the left and bottom left is BOV. That's the farthest the probe would go in.
well I had the car out the other day and drove it around a lot with multiple hot starts and such.
Since Ive also been posting with no comments back I figure this will prob be my last post unless responses are warranted.
Got a bunch of logs. But only one really matters. I Have the 100ml nozzle pre supercharger coming in at 7" of vacuum, the larger nozzle located in the TB spacer (between the TB and intake) is 375ml. Flow testing with the AEM flow gauge is about 875ml total. The IAT and EGT charge temp gauge are located inline with the BOV and are between the 175 and 375ml nozzles. THis means that they only see the charge temp coming out of the supercharger and not what the TB nozzle is doing. I did this so the IAT/EGT didn't get soaked with the fluid and give false readings.
My conclusions of the days testing is that the IAT sensor is proven to provide exaggerated temp readings to the tune of 50+*F comparing the the EGT which Is very accurate. Another thing is that the EGT temps didn't react at all by the 100ml injection at any point during a pull or cruising. Which I forced the system on by loading the motor in OD going 45mph. I still never saw a huge drop in charge temp.
With that being said I can say with the new (non FMIC) setup my true IAT temps are in the 120-140*F range most of the time, I would see large drops in temps when I let off the gas after boost and coasted etc.
My log showed IAT sensor readings (not the EGT) with my largest boost run was 5-7s and I went from 145*F IAT temp at the beginning to 9.6psi boost with a 196*F IAT temp, then dropped to 172*F within 2s of letting go of the gas. TEmps eventually dropped to 120ish*F IATs via highway coasting. I know that looking at the EGT gauge it never ever got that close and I might have seen a 140*F temp via the EGT gauge. The shitty part is that the IAT temps the computer sees is so high at 196*F that I was only running 12-12.5* of timing at the 9.6psi so It was retarding 5* due to the high temps. I'm honestly temped to pull the timing retard in IAT to 0* so it has no effect but hope I don't have a meth failure. On a positive side my engine temps never broke 180*F even sitting in traffic or in boost. So the FMIC was really heating my engine up but prob lowing the IAT considerably since if I remember my IAT readings from the older logs was like 113*F - 130*F I think.
So the only thing I have left to do is mess with my meth injection and either squirt a larger amount into the supercharger to help cool it down around town or run the EGT in the intake and really see whats going on after the big 375ml hit. but the sensor would def get wet.
So now your seeing the real temp with the thermocouple probe. Only condundrum your having now is the ecu is reading the inaccurate iat sensor for temps. Im glad you finally got that thermocouple. Those iat sensors were fooling you into thinking it was running one way and its really another. See how cruising, no intercooler the iats are not bad at all? Now gm makes two iat sensors. One is an open cage and another is a solid brass unit. I have an idea.
, or some whatever,lol. My spa technique gauge uses a convertor box. In that I say it comes with an iat sensor which I didnt like and was terribley inaccurate and responded slowly,but you know all this now. But when you upgrade to a k thermocouple you buy a convertor box which takes the signal from the k thermocoupleand convertes it I assume to the gauge simaler to what a regular iat signal. You following me? If you could use a thermocouple in the upper plenum, then have a convertor box, then splice those 2 wires into ecu for signal it might work. Can you map out your nozzle locations in relation to thermocouple and iat sensor? Kind of like where is everything. So under full boost how hot is the thermocouple reading vs iat sensor?
The incorrect IAT temps aren't that much of a problem per say. I literally just went in the tune and only started pulling 1* of timing at like 160+*F IAT temps, ending up at -3* pulled at 192*F temps. So worst case my 17-18* total timing could be limited to 14-15*F in case of a meth failure and I don't think the motor will blow with the boost I'm running and 93 pump gas on a stock 5.3. But I've been wrong before. If I can get a measure on the IAT temps then I will pull timing when they are above normal.
IAT sensor was off pretty much the entire time but Their were some points when it was close lol. The sensor I run is the open cage style… supposedly the most accurate and fastest responding but also susceptible to the water/meth messing with the temps.
I guess figuring out how to use a thermocouple instead of an IAT is possible… BUt I also saw I have a IAT sensor calibration table in my HPTuners OS… so I wonder if my sensor is "off" as its not the OEM sensor but a FAST sensor.
Under full boost I would say I was in the 140's EGT probe ( I didn't datalog the EGT only the IAT as its a separate setup) but the IATs got to like 196*F. The EGT stayed pretty normal and didn't fluctuate as much as I thought it would… esp when I knew the METH/water was pumping. BUt as Ive stated the EGT and IAT are only seeing temps after the SC and 100ml nozzle and not the big 375ml nozzle in the TB.
I have attached a pic of the nozzle placement as well as the EGT and IAT and BOV locations. The BOV, IAT and EGT are all at the same location in bungs that go 1/2 around the 3" charge pipe. So the EGT is sampling at the exact same location as the IAT sensor. I was merely testing the IAT's accuracy this time. I could mount the EGT sensor in the intake behind the TB to get temps at the 375ml nozzle for more accurate temps but it would get hit with ALOT of meth/water like sprayed directly on it.
I'm not going back to FMIC only because I don't want the hotter engine temps. And I feel the Meth is worth pursuing and capable to cooling my mild combo. My main question is if the 100ml nozzle is enough meth pre SC as it doesn't seem to be dropping the temps AT ALL when activated. I have no idea what the 375ml nozzle is doing yet as I don't have the EGT in the intake yet. But for me to NOT see any temp drop after 2-3s of the 100ml nozzle being active is a problem no? I'm thinking of stepping it up to 175ml and possibly getting a set of AEM nozzles to play around with. I guess I expected a 20-60*F drop spraying the meth into the SC. I don't get a lot of info when googling but from what I've read most are running a ton before the SC like 15gph but its usually straight Meth. Since I'm only at 30/70 meth/water mix I'm not super eager to shoot that much water into the SC lol… but from what Ive read the water is better at heat absorption/detonation suppression and the meth provides the octane boost.
It seems like your moving forward on this. The 100ml may be a bit to small. Think of it this way. If your car never enters boost and the car is driven say 20 min the head unit is very hot. Its a good size chunk of aluminun and steel. So when it injects. Your dighting two heat sources. One the temp increase from the boost and two the whole mass of the metal of the head unit. Easy swap of the nozzles will show you this. Swap the bigger one before the supercharger and recheck. I still see issues with the placement of everything. Where the nozzles are interms of the second one. Cooling of the air charge takes two things. Time and distance. Im not familiar with the setup. But here goes. After the head unit is where I would have put rhe second nozzle. Spray on the walls and stuff like that would be a non issue. It would get pushed by the boost and mixed well right into the motor. Plus you cool down that whole intake pipe that sits right above the radiator and sucks up all the head from the fan. But the blow off valve is the thing Im not familiar with. I mostly see bypass valves that dump the charge back into the intake of the supercharger. Is the iat sensor evem showing a temp drop at all? But your saying the egt gauge is? They make 2 iat sensors. I dont know if a ford sensor would work plug wise or thread wise, but popular use of these off the lightning supercharged trucks as they are used because they have a bigger voltage range vs na sensors. The wetting of that open cage sensor may be an issue. They sell a solid brass unit as well for gm. Egt after all the nozzles as well as Iat. Still think that pre supercharger nozzle is a bit small. Its about 3gph conversioned over to gph. From your 175ml/m at 220 psi. Just going up 1gph is a noticable difference. Try that swapping of the nozzles. Does methanol mix shoot out of the bypass when it opens?
I think the meth is the way to go with this due to lack of airflow on the Firebirds.
I agree now I think the 100ml is too small. I'm thinking of swapping them, prob try the 375 pre supercharger and the 175 in the TB spacer. Car sees nothing but street miles so its out of boost 80% of the time so its just heating the head unit the entire time, then I go into boost and the IAT/EGT go up quickly like 10-20*F depending on boost.
The setup is as it was designed/delivered from the supercharger company. The 1/8" and 3/8" bungs are pre welded including the BOV so I have no choice with those. I found the 1/8" bung too "deep" and caused the meth nozzle to spray into the sides of the bung and make a mess so I have relocated the nozzles for proper spray pattern. The BOV is a bypass valve but its just vents to atmosphere so no plumbing back to the intake. And its very loud lol.
I guess if I use my head its better to run the 375ml nozzle pre SC or right outside the compressor so it has time to cool, the 175ml or 100ml in the TB spacer will provide the detonation resistance I need/want.
To clarify the guage temp readings... no they both show no sign of temp drop with the 100ml meth activation. Say I have 140*F EGT and 160*F IAT readings, at 7" of vacuum the 100ml nozzle activates and the temps dont change for a few sec I get nothing and no change. Then I let off the gas and coast for a few sec and the IAT/EGT readings will drop accordingly (depending on how fast I'm coasting).
Wetting of the open element IAT sensor is why Ive positioned my nozzles in their current locations. Hoping that the 100ml was evaporated coming out of the SC so it didnt wet the IAT or EGT sensorand give me false readings. Then the 375ml dumped a large safe amount to control detonation and decrease a last ditch of air temps. The Truck intake has very long runners so even injecting at the TB the air still has to travel 11.5" of runner before getting to the head surface and then the extra distance of the runner in the head. But as youve stated I can't measure those temps and the PCM doesnt know of it either. So I'm going with what you said.
I think I'm going to swap the 100 to a 375 and swap the TB to a 175ml. Thank you for your help thus far. I really want to kill the IATs with this. I dont drive the car enough to not beat on it and enjoy it so the cost of wiper fluid is not a concern or even 49/51 mix boost juice as i doubt i would go through 5 gallons a summer. AIS said in a thread that they recommended a 7-10 GPH pre supercharger and then a 3GPH at the TB.
I havent noticed any coming out of the BOV yet, but then again the hood is down and i'm driving and im sure its dried by the time I stop.
Last edited by customblackbird; 06-20-2016 at 01:32 PM.
Swapped the nozzles and increased the nozzle in the TB to 175ml. Tested the system to verify flow rates and make sure everything is working.
From the flow gauge with just the 375ml nozzle pre supercharger in seeing 700-763ml on the gauge/log. Kick on the solenoid and the 175 bumps total output to 1063ml roughly. That's a lot of fluid!
I checked with Devils own and they said I should be running a D05 pre supercharger and a D04 after or just a single D010. That's like 900-1000ml flow which is right where I'm at.
Also reading up I saw AIS is throwing 15gph nozzles pre supercharger so it cools the head unit and the left overs make it into the motor. They also run a tiny nozzle before the TB to make sure some water is making to the chamber.
If the weather is going to be nice tmrw I'll take the car to work and get some results.
Drive to work went well. Car feels really good but ambient temps were only 75*F/44% humidity. So it was a cool nice morning. I did not bring the computer to log or look at IATs so I was just going off the EGT gauge (car show after work and didn't feel like bringing the laptop).
Shooting 375ml pre supercharger didn't do a whole lot for charge temps as far as dropping, charge temps got to 104*F and ended at 102*F parking the car. Only good news is that the charge temps didn't get higher than 104*F with city driving (55mph and slower) and got into boost a few times (low boost). However with the 375ml (700ml flow) wasn't affecting the EGT temps... so didn't drop at all even after a few sec of injection. Still I'd take 104*F charge temps all day if thats the highest they get lol but I doubt it being a cool day and only a 15min drive.
Look at it this way. You didnt know the actual temp of the running supercharger. If intake is 75° and your seeing 104 cruising, its safe to say the supercharger actual metal temp in is the 140 range. So under boost ,8lbs , you should have seen 185° iat round about,no meth. If your seeing 102° thats an 80°drop. You need time and distance to see temp drop. Where your injecting and where your reading is about 2 feet. No time really to drop temps. If the k thermocouple was in the manifold I can bet the drop would be more significant . Your using a k thermocouple , am I correct saying this? Plus where is the storage container for the methanol? When installing you want the tip in the center of the pipe too. I bought mine from a vendor in MI that specialised in race k thermocouples. 90° type and all. Some are made diff than others. Seems your making progress.
That is true, Supercharger temp is unknown until I park the car and use a IR heat gun.
My testing has shown supercharger temps to be in the 140-159*F temp range. I didn't get up to 8psi today so far... prob 2-3psi perhaps. But from what I've read I should see 10*F per 1psi of boost heat. So 3psi = 30* estimated about 170*F IATs.
I would agree that getting the thermo K probe in the intake is best. I mainly wanted to see if the meth was doing its job at the source of the heat at the SC. I'm going to try to put it in the EGR port and see what it reads.
Charge pipe is 15" alone, not including the bends. The only way to increase length would be to add inter-cooler piping. From what Ive read it takes about 6-8" for meth to evaporate and water for the most part (I'm sure it takes longer).
Yes the gauge/probe is a K thermocouple sensor, EGT K-Type Probe (Stainless Steel). sensor/gauge specs
DISPLAY RANGE
Temp: 32 - 1999 °F (0-1093 °C)
KEY FEATURES
Change from EGT to CHT range. CHT range allows greater resolution
Display in either °F or °C
Change exterior LED as a fill bar or light a single indicating LED
Due to the probe length and bung length I couldn't get the prob in more than 1/2" inside the tube. Literally can't push it in anymore due to the bend in the probe. The bung was pre welded into my charge pips so i couldnt change that. Thinking of getting SS tube with a larger BOV and welding my own bung.
Methanol containers are the snow 3 qt tank, and stock wiper tank both located in the driver battery tray. So i'm sure they get a smidge warm under the hood lol.
Drove a short 10min drive to the local car show and saw 127*F EGT temps. It's 82* ambient and cat sat in the sun fall day so EGT were like 100*F on startup. Didn't get into any real boost except a short burst of meth for a split sec but nothing to really allow it to cool anything. I can only imagine what the IAT sensor was seeing.
On the way home from the show which I jump right on the highway and no traffic EGT temps were lower. Started at like 82*F EGT and it went up to 96 on a very short burst of throttle/boost. Then it never went above 102-104*F. This included long boost runs on the highway and quick medium throttle blasts off highway with some
Coasting.
Pulled the car in and used the IR gun and got 127*F SC head unit and 117*F charge pipe temps. IAT sensor body was 127*F. SC head unit temps were after 5min of coasting/driving after a meth injection.
I did find something with the meth volume when driving on the highway. While in drive the car has a 2400 stall and the motor isn't that loaded and when in boost the meth kicks on and you can feel the difference and then I can lay into it and the motor takes off. But when I loaded the motor up at like 3k in OD with the converter locked I could feel the motor get sluggish up till like 3psi of boost and then it would take off like it needed more boost or rpm to get past the 1000ml I'm injecting.
EGTs stayed steady and never really dropped temp with the meth engaged.
Depends on which LS motor or if its MAF or SD. Mine was originally a 99 MAF truck motor. IAT is located in the MAF housing, 5 pin plug/harness. I removed the MAF and cut the harness for SD tuning and used the 2 IAT wires from the MAF to connect the new IAT sensor.
Thank you for the link to the Kthermocouples. Gona see if I can get this one to work for now depth wise. I honestly thought the temps would be jumping around alot more or have more fluctuations given the readings. But they are almost at like a stand still 99% of the time unless it heats up very quickly like 10* or so going into boost. I guess I thought I would see more fluctuating temps given driving conditions.
Ok guys this is going to be my last update. Figured no one ever finishes what they start on the online forums. Revamped everything and the car was in the air for a month or so.
1.) Installed a AEM progressive meth controller, wired into stock 2bar map sensor.
2.) Changed nozzles to AEM with 250cc nozzle 18" before the TB
3.) put IAT sensor back in the EGR hole in the intake
4.) Put EGT probe in the TB spacer right behind the TB
5.) Stock power bulge hood now on (removed 4.5" cowl hood)
6.) had to remove the 130amp large case alternator for a 140amp small case alternator (charging has suffered now)
7.) Installed the FMIC again with all piping. but decided to add in a 44mm BOV between the SC and the IC, as well as keep the 38mm BOV between the IC and the TB. I have the 44mm BOV spring swapped so it opens or closes at 10" of vacuum roughly. So its open at idle and coasting but once I get into it at a bout 10" it closes up. Both BOVs have really decreased the discharge noise when coasting at high speed with my foot off the throttle (engine braking) its much quieter now but louder before I get to 10" of vacuum lol.
8.) Installed a SS coupler with 3 bungs for meth nozzles, running one 250cc nozzle currently and remove the PRE SC nozzle due to the FMIC.
9.) Car has a new exhaust (removed 4" exhaust) and put a summit racing 3" cutback with CME 4th gen center exit exhaust tips. Couldn't be happier with the quieter sound!
10.) New used OEM gas tank with 340lph pump installed
11.) removed 1 gallon of coolant mix from radiator and put 1 gallon of straight distilled water
12.) still using the wiper fluid for meth injection.
Heres some data from logging.
Ambient temps were 93*F and HOT
Startup IAT was 104*F, EGT read 102/104
Ran the **** out of it with lots of boost runs and a mix of city and highway
Ending IAT readings were 152*F, EGT read 132*F
SC inlet tubing = 153*F
SC head unit = 180*F
SC outlet elbow going to IC = 146*F
FMIC inlet = 103*F
FMIC outlet = 94*F
Engine Inlet IC piping = 130*F
Engine temps peaked at 205*F but usually stayed in the 190's and temps would actually decrease at a light but would heat up driving the car hard. Coasting on the highway didn't help much with engine temps which tells me I'm not getting enough air at highway speeds due to the IC and such. I did have a large gap the whole height of the radiator 1-1.5" wide and 19" tall which I quickly made a cover plate but have no results as that was done after the logging/driving. So that might have been a large air leak not helping the high speed cooling.
Logs show I only hit 7psi at 4600rpms which is down 2psi from before ( I think its the 44mm BOV as the piston isn't fully sealing at the flange in the closed position). But The Logs show consistently that the IAT temps drop from the beginning of a boost pull to the end by about 7*F including the small 250cc of the wiper fluid. I can live with 120-150*F IATs as long as they are fluctuating and this was on a very hot day to be beating on it. So this is going to be the setup I stick with with small changes.
I made a cover plate for the large 1.5" x 19" gap to help seal the front of the radiator off. I'm thinking I might put a small 11" spall fan on the IC to help move air at speed. Ive let the coolant mix and I removed 1 gallon of mixed coolant and put in another gallon of distilled. I might mess with the 250cc nozzle or add the Pre SC nozzle back in. 180*F is the hottest the SC headunit has ever gotten.
Ive also adjusted the tune, consistently running 10.5-11:1 above 130kpa 4000rpms+ so I took a bunch of fuel out I'm also only seeing 15.5* timing at 4600 when I should be seeing 16-17* so I'm getting timing retard somewhere. Car is running really good otherwise and the new exhaust doesn't seemed to have cost me noticeable power loss.
Idk why your temps are not dropping that much. I see 20 to 30 drop from measures temp at boost run at 12-13 psi. But that 7 degree drop is actually more than that when you factor in 10°for every lb boost over temp before boost hit.
Getting cooler temps on a 'bird are always going to be harder then on a camaro with that front grill opening. When I added my front mount IC it was fall out and coolant temps were normal. Now that it is 95-98 degrees in Florida, the lack of a front grill and the stock fans didn't cut it with the front mount. Coolant temps went up to 214 while driving and came back down to 207 when cruising but it is still too hot for me.
I switched to a dodge stratus dual cooling fan unit and now coolant temps are 180-185 driving even in 95 degree heat. The new fans pull the temps down from a heat soaked 200 to 185 in about 5 seconds when the car is re-started. Factory fans never did that for me.
I just bought a used alky control meth kit and can't wait to install it. My iat's are 115 with 88 degree ambient and rise to 130-133 at the end of an 1/8 mile run, going up top 150 and then coming back down to 120 by the time you get the timeslip and get back to the pits and park. Still not good enough for me in this heat, which is why the meth kit is next.
On your set-up i would expect more of an iat drop also. I am going to start with a 50/50 mix and might go to 70 meth/30 water later.
Idk why your temps are not dropping that much. I see 20 to 30 drop from measures temp at boost run at 12-13 psi. But that 7 degree drop is actually more than that when you factor in 10°for every lb boost over temp before boost hit.
WEll I made some changes to see if I could get lower IATs. I added a 100ml nozzle pre SC which flows 250cc/ml, the AEM small 200ml nozzle flows about 450ml so i'm now pushing 700ish ml, 250 pre SC and 450 pre TB. Changed my Air dam alittle to scopp some more air. Ambient temps have been really cool the last week or so in the 70-80 ish range but my engine and IAT temps are much lower now but could be due to the much cooler outside temps.
I'm seeing 80-100*F IATs on a 73-78* day, I see a small drop in IAT temps during a boost pull, no real change with the meth on. Engine temps have been consistently below 180* for the most part.
My EGT gauge isnt worth **** at this point. It never shows any fluctuation in air temps besides going up where my OEM IAT is constantly going up and down throughout my logs. I can only assume that its getting heat soaked and therefore won't register lower temps. I wonder how that would work in a exhaust setup tho as I'm sure they get heat soaked as well.
Getting cooler temps on a 'bird are always going to be harder then on a camaro with that front grill opening. When I added my front mount IC it was fall out and coolant temps were normal. Now that it is 95-98 degrees in Florida, the lack of a front grill and the stock fans didn't cut it with the front mount. Coolant temps went up to 214 while driving and came back down to 207 when cruising but it is still too hot for me.
I switched to a dodge stratus dual cooling fan unit and now coolant temps are 180-185 driving even in 95 degree heat. The new fans pull the temps down from a heat soaked 200 to 185 in about 5 seconds when the car is re-started. Factory fans never did that for me.
I just bought a used alky control meth kit and can't wait to install it. My iat's are 115 with 88 degree ambient and rise to 130-133 at the end of an 1/8 mile run, going up top 150 and then coming back down to 120 by the time you get the timeslip and get back to the pits and park. Still not good enough for me in this heat, which is why the meth kit is next.
On your set-up i would expect more of an iat drop also. I am going to start with a 50/50 mix and might go to 70 meth/30 water later.
Yea stock fans on these cars are not enough. Good choice on those fans they are pretty good as Ive looked at them in the past.
I like my meth kit and what it does... I'm not seeing the temp drops but I can feel the motor pull harder when its engaged. My temps aren't bad anymore... the FMIC takes ALOT of the heat out and the meth provides detonation resistance. I'm looking into relocating my pump and tank into the cargo area and stepping up to a 2.5ish gallon. When I get it where I want it I'm going to run 50/50 mix and prob just get the snow boost juice for convenience and its like $35 and should last me the whole summer.
Your IAts aren't that bad. I wouldn't want mine higher than 150 tho if possible. I think your meth kit will show little improvement as your temps aren't really high enough for the meth to absorb the heat per say, but the water will help with detonation resistence.
05-26-2016, 12:46 PM
whoop whoop!
