ASE doc

The correct converter compliments an engine's torque curve to produce the best torque transfer to the drivetrain. One thing I forgot to mention, an old general rule is the stall speed should come in about 500rpm above peak torque. I think with the advancements in converter design, that rule is way over simplified. Again, talk to Dana.

I see now what you are talking about with valve relief trimming. I was thinking you were talking about fly cutting your own reliefs. Believe it or not, there is actually a fly cutting tool sold for cutting reliefs using a power drill and the valve guide as a guide for the tool. Not to talk down anyone who has used that method, but for myself, I do not trust my ability with a power drill nearly enough to go blind cutting the top of a band new forged piston with a fly cutter through the valve guide.

You chose the right piston crown for your needs. I don't know that trimming the reliefs is of that much value at 11:1, but as long as you're super careful and don't remove much material, it can't really hurt anything. Be sure to get the surface where you worked as smooth and shiny as the rest of the finished surface. The fine finish helps resist hot spots that cause detonation. A polishing wheel on a bench grinder works well for that. I assume that the AFR 210s come with CNC finished chambers.

cardo0

That's common practice from what I've read - smooth out the the sharp edges. Or even contour the surfaces to aid the flame travel. Through I haven't had to do it myself that's what I've read - take it or leave it. These are pretty much optimized pistons as flat as possible - nice choice!

UltRoadWarrior9

Final install has begun.

Started with the bottom end, crank installed with bearing lube and main cap nuts torqued using ARP lube. ARP main studs were installed by the machine shop and they used thread lock. I don't think they line bored it after installing the studs however. I don't see it on the receipt. But after installing and torquing each and every cap, the crank still spun very nicely. EDIT: They did check the line bore.
Then went on to install the piston/rod assemblies using ring lube and a $9 piston installer. First 3 were a challenge, then the last five pistons went in no problem. The ARP rod bolts were torqued using ARP lube as well.

Then I saw how close the tops of the rod bolts came to the block during rotation of the crank by hand. I wasn't too happy with what I saw. I've read .1" minimum in books. My eyes tell me MAYBE .060" clearance. I'll have to get a drill bit next time out to the garage and measure this more accurately.

UltRoadWarrior9

Cam installed here. You can also see my machinist followed my request and drilled and tapped for threaded NPT pipe plugs and not 'staked' plugs. Got a HV oil pump in there, ain't risking nothing stupid going on at 7000+ RPM.
You can also see the rear cam plug and 3 more threaded NPT pipe plugs in the other pic.

UltRoadWarrior9

Double roller timing chain set installed. I forgot to give them my chosen cam bearings, part#SH1349S, arrgh! I'll have to call and see which set they installed. I chose that specific bearing because of the tension the double roller puts on the bearings, especially the front bearings.

UltRoadWarrior9

3-piece front timing cover installed. Loving that cover, especially when/if it comes time to change the cam in the car, without disturbing the oil pan gasket.

UltRoadWarrior9

I was held up by a $4 missing gasket for the 1 piece RMS adapter. Using a Timken PTFE RMS.

UltRoadWarrior9

Very close to this....

But first I have to replace the AFR8000 valve springs, meant for a solid roller cam, that came with these AFR210's (competition ported with titanium retainers) with PAC1934 springs and .060" valve spring locators/spacers. Also will be checking valve movement in the guides, when the springs are off at the machine shop.

cardo0

That induction looks too cool - all business,no joking here! BTW why did you choose the Edlebrock mono blade air horn over the Nitros Outlet air horn using the standard dual butterfly throttle body?

UltRoadWarrior9

I'm not familiar with that setup you refer to, can you provide a link?

Mainly because I got that 90mm TB for $85 off eBay and that Edelbrock elbow, part#3848, @$120 was a great fit. 90mm TB is max for that elbow... Also, I can use a throttle cable from a 98 Camaro that will reach the butterfly bracket. The trans detent cable might need some experimentation, but luckily it comes from the same side of the engine compartment as the butterfly bracket, so I don't anticipate too much of a problem there. Another thing is, that LSx style TB has the same electrical pinouts for the IAC and TPS sensors as the 3rd Gen IAC and TPS sensors. I think the MAP sensor and IAT sensor too? This is a plus since I intend on using the 7730 ECM w/EBL P4. Which reminds me, I need to put in an order for RMS adapter gasket and MAP, IAT sensors/connectors from rockauto!

cardo0

OK, this should work: http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/perform...ake-elbow.html

It's a lot more expensive but allows use of stock like TB. But there maybe gains from the newer LS style single blade TB I donno. Is the throttle position sensor output the same? I can see the throttle lever is on the other side. Please let us know how you work things out with the TPS, throttle cable and TV linkage.

You're intake and elbow look really bad azz! Ya know I think you could reverse it to and take cool air right from the high pressure at the base of the windshield - just an idea so don't loose sleep over it. sbc has so many options it becomes difficult to choose. And a dry flow intake/induction makes it even more difficult! We can find plenty of single plane EFI intakes on the shelf now. I'm hoping someone comes up with a dual plane EFI for sbc but for now they have to be converted by someone that knows what they are doing. Converting an carb intake to dry flow EFI is gonn'a be at least 500 bucks plus the intake cost. Then $350 for a Nitrous Outlet elbow. But you say the Edlebrock elbows are only $120?

Good luck with your build and please keep us in the loop.

UltRoadWarrior9

That's a bit of an expensive elbow just to keep the dual 58mm TB. Why for cable compatibility? Doesn't seem worth it to me, I think it would be proper to follow the newer LS style because no doubt it flows better since it's newer tech....

Was back in the garage today to check on the rod bolt to block clearance using a 1/16" (.062")drill bit to get a feel for a real value, instead of 'eyeing' .060". On a few cylinders clearance was well clear, but on a few others clearance seemed to be around .050 which according to SA21 Engine Blueprinting, this is satisfactory for a stroker with high RPMs. So I'm done worrying about that issue.

UltRoadWarrior9

Ran into a problem while doing a mock-up install of this Moroso oil pan, part #20206. Can you see what the problem is in the second pic?

In the first pic I installed the oil pan studs with red loctite. Also installed the Moroso HV oil pump, part #22139 along with oil pump copper gasket and ARP stud, from Summit.

UltRoadWarrior9

I drilled the hole thinking it'd be in the middle of the gasket track. Wrong! Was right up against the oil pan. Had to go to work today and use an air hammer to massage the metal in order to make room for the ARP 12 point nut.

Also, I decided to use GM's oil pan reinforcement pan rails. Had to shave some metal in order to fit those to the Moroso pan. They worked out pretty good. I hate oil leaks is why am spending time on this.


...But in retrospect, I probably should have just sent the oil pan back.

-=Z28=-

iTrader: (3)

Nice job. Getting closer! Today I had very similar clearance issues with my rod bolts to oil pan rail. Have you checked your rod to cam clearances? My machinist recommends at least .030. Pan rail, .060.

Keep up the good work.

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks! I will ask about the rod to cam clearance. I was going to head in to my machinist today, on my day off, in order to check out the AFR head construction and switch out the valve springs, but I felt I needed abit more face time with my engine before heading back to the machine shop. I'm building up questions you see
I spent a couple hours today installing the ARP head studs (part #ARP-234-4301) with the ARP thread sealer (part# ARP-100-9904) into the Chevy Performance Parts 880 block.
Also, you can see in this pic after the final stage of smoothing of the forged Mahle piston edges on the valve reliefs that I did last week. A few scratches, but no scratch is deep enough to catch anything rubbing against the surface. Not even the tip of an exacto knife.

UltRoadWarrior9

Trying gasket fitment. Was going to use this Felpro head gasket part # FEL 1003 in this build but it has compressed thickness of .041". Too much quench at .051". So I can use this $40 head gasket for valvetrain clearance checking, whilst saving the Felpro MLS gaskets, part # FEL 1142026 at $64ea. It has a compressed thickness of .026" as mentioned before.

The FEL 1003 went on pretty easy, left pic. On the right, the FEL 1142026 install was a PITA, the gasket kept catching the edges of the stud threads! Not necessarily bad, but definately very tight tolerance!

UltRoadWarrior9

Prehead install. Noticed these Felpro MLS gaskets have gold colored rivets. 5 rivets were clearly out of the path of the AFR 210's. But the 6th? Next pic...

UltRoadWarrior9

Here's the one I was worried about. But no need to worry, the AFR clears this rivet!

UltRoadWarrior9

Today I took a used Chevy hydraulic lifter, gutted it, and put a length of 5/16" brake tubing instead of the guts in order to make it a solid roller. Went back together nice and tight. When I get the Scorpion roller rockers in by mid-Oct, I'll be able to check for proper pushrod length using CompCams 6.8"-7.8" adjustable pushrod.
Just a note: I got the Scorpion roller rockers meant for AFR 'ELIMINATOR' heads, apparently they're offset .100" and there's a set of rocker arms for the left heads and a set for the right heads.

So, in 2 days the PAC-1934 valve springs will be installed on the AFR210's by my machine shop and we'll see if these heads are good to go.

ASE doc

Remember on all engine studs,(studs are very good idea on high HP build BTW) to leave them loose about 2 or 3 turns from bottomed out. Otherwise, you will not be able to slide the heads or main caps over them. Plus, if bottomed out tight, they will cause misalignment and distortion, even if you can slide the part over them.

UltRoadWarrior9

I did in fact install the head studs all the way tight. As for the main cap studs, my machinist did those, so I might be inclined to give a call and ask him. It makes sense not to fully seat the studs as it may point the stud off-center, then when torquing the nut may distort the block. In my case, the head did slide on nicely with no interference problems unlike those MLS gaskets!
But why 2 or 3 threads? I would think backing off 1 thread would be sufficient

UltRoadWarrior9

Well guess what, I went back and loosened all the ARP head studs about 1 turn and I was able to more easily remove/install the Felpro MLS head gasket! BTW, the ARP sealer hadn't fully dried after even 2 days. I guess it's heat activated?

ASE doc, you're a great credit to TGO knowledge. Thx for your input on this first and last GEN I engine build!

UltRoadWarrior9

Summit said availibilty by mid Oct from Scorpion... Wrong. TY. Got my Scorpion RR's for AFR heads today

UltRoadWarrior9

Uh, got 14 of part# 10006859 and 2 of part# 10004700. Sorta pisst, gonna make a phone call tomorrow.

ASE doc

1 turn from tight is probably fine. The reason for 2-3 turns is, for one it makes no difference in the strength of the studs grip, and just in case you roll it back in a turn when running down the nut. I like the newer studs with the hex in the top. It will make them alot easier to remove if you ever pull the heads for any reason. Earlier ARP studs didn't have that. Pulling heads on a factory block(coolant in the head bolt holes) where you have to seal the head studs to the block can be a bear if you can't roll the studs out first. They tend to harden in place and on most heads the studs bind in the bolt holes and require a lot of gentle prying and working the head back and forth to get it off over the studs.

The Dart block is a different story. Just install the studs in the block with assembly lube and they come out easy.

I'm sure your machinist knows not to seat the studs. It's common knowledge among those who use them. I would never assemble any serious engine build without them.

UltRoadWarrior9

Makes sense backing off the head studs 2 or 3 threads in order to anticipate the stud turning slightly during final torque. Thanks for explaining that bit of detail. I've already backed off 1 thread on all cylinder head studs. I'll add another full 360degrees, for 2 full threads.

UltRoadWarrior9

Called them. Those were Lot #'s not part #'s on the Roller Rockers. That's a my bad.

Still, I ordered 8 left .1" offset and 8 right .1" offset. I think this is incorrect. What do you guys think? The limited research Ive done says no offset on the exhaust rockers and a .1" offset on the intake rockers.

UltRoadWarrior9

This is definatetly wrong according to the AFR FAQ on SBC Eliminator heads. http://www.airflowresearch.com/sbc-faq/
Only their heads with intake runner sizes above 227cc require offset rocker arms. I'll have to exchange these Scorpion offsets for their standard SBC 1.6 ratio. Same price. Hopefully will be an easy exchange and negotiate shipping charges.

UltRoadWarrior9

I've been building up parts here and there for the front end of the engine. Nothing to shiny, as I like modified stock.

Going for a 1992 3rd Gen serpentine belt setup with March overdrive pulleys.
Regarding the engine brackets, I've acquired the Alt-P/S pump bracket for the left side of the engine from RockAuto for $56, brand new.
The Smog pump bracket, I found cheapest on Ebay for $85. It also came with the serpentine belt tensioner and some mounting hardware, studs/bolts etc. Used, but cleaned!

Regarding the accessories, the power steering pump and high pressure lines are cheap, the alternator is cheap, the A/C compressor is ~$150. Not so cheap... + Hoses/lines

Regarding the March overdrive pulleys. I like kit #4410-08. Comes with the underdrive crank pulley, water pump pulley and alternator pulley for $185. P/S pulley will remain stock. AIR/smog pump will be removed and bypassed by a bracket/pulley combo, part #10186167.

UltRoadWarrior9

Alright, I'm sealing up the bottom end. Gonna retorque all ARP main cap nuts and all ARP rod bolts before I torque in the oil pan rails. I've added 5 ft/lbs to ARP specs.

Just measured clearance from bottom of oil pump pickup screen and fitted the 7qt Moroso pan without the single piece FelPro gasket. Using play doh, it's showing me around .290" clearance. That's real close to 5/16" with a gasket on there.

UltRoadWarrior9

Update: Concentrating on front of block while awaiting the Scorpion Roller Rockers, then pushrods.
Just got in March underdrive pulleys,black, part #4410-08. Theme to be consistent with black/silver(chrome/aluminum).
Could not afford the Stewart water pump yet, but did order the alternator and power steering pump from rockauto. Also got smog pump delete pulley, but found I might not even need it. Already have the smog/alt brackets. Had to shave abit of metal off the alt bracket to clear the Comp Cams timing cover. Once PS pump comes in, will measure the shaft diameter and order a March PS pulley to match. Pics soon...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Didnt see it earlier but the afr 180-210 heads should not need offset rockers

ASE doc

Absolutely, the 210s and smaller DO NOT take offset rockers. You will most likely have interference issues with .1" offset on a cyl head not designed for it.

Offset rockers are only needed on heads where the pushrod openings have been relocated to allow for very large intake ports. For instance, AFR recommends shaft mount offset rockers on their 227 and 230 heads and they are required on their 245 heads.

The only offset rockers that are worth using anyway are the very pricey shaft mount type. Rocker stud mounted offset rockers tend to not ride squarely on the valve tip. This leads to premature valve tip and valve guide wear.

UltRoadWarrior9

YUP, check my post #229 and the link the AFR's site...

This was a 'my bad' moment. Lucky for me since I didn't do anything with the Scorpion parts, Summit is accepting my return and sending me a set of 'regular' 1.6 RR's. Just minutes ago I received an update from Summit that they received my return...
It's my fault, I should have read AFR literature on their website (which I did after I ordered parts DOH)... What initially got me going offest was the Scorpion Performance website, which advertised the offset RR's for AFR heads. They don't spec the size head offsets are needed for... But again, it's my fault, any serious engine builder would have known this.

UltRoadWarrior9

These are the 2 brackets of which I speaketh....

ASE doc

It's just part of building a hotrod. Figuring out what works and what doesn't. Best advice on cyl head install is always consult the cyl head manufacturer for installation questions.

UltRoadWarrior9

Just got in my Harmonic Balancer, SFI approved. Good to 12,000 RPM

ASE doc

I should know this well but I don't remember as well as I should. I seem to remember the AIR pump mounted in the lower opening on the bracket to the left in your photo(RF of the motor as viewed from the driver's seat). The issue with deleting the pump was belt routing. There is an idler pulley available, as I remember, that mounts in place of the AIR pump. It provides correct routing of the belt without the pump.

Remember also, you need a reverse rotation(89 and later) water pump for the serpentine belt system.

UltRoadWarrior9

I thought this was a good read. Picked it up somewhere around here on a recent TGO thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/serpentine/
There is a idler pulley, i.e. smog (A.I.R.) pump bypass pulley available that goes where the smog pump was. I ordered one from Summit, although is on backorder till Oct 6.
Yes, the water pump. I'm choosing a long style reverse rotation (counter clockwise) water pump made by Stewart.

Got the AC Delco Alternator and PS pump in. PS pump shaft measures .748". After much searching for a billet aluminum black pulley, could not find one. Will settle for the OEM steel pulley, which is black, for 1992 Camaro...

Things coming together very quickly now. Will have to determine:
1) PTV clearance. Final Install AFR210's with MLS gaskets.
2) Final pushrod length choice. VTG check.
3) Install water pump, and all pulleys and check 6-rib serp belt alignment

ETA:Hopefully, in a couple weeks we have a 95% complete engine build here.
The other 5% is: pushrods, stud girdles, valve covers, 1992 new wiring harness from Larry's Electric, EBL P4 Flash... And I think that's it!

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

When you eliminate the air pump you can just run a shorter belt. Thats what I did on my L98.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yup shorter belt

UltRoadWarrior9

Ok, thx guys, will decide soon what to do there...

Today I started out by installing the harmonic balancer and crank pulley. I measured TDC and set the adjustable pointer on the timing cover. Also, made a couple mod's to really see true TDC using the pointer. 1 mod was a black line on the balancer to make TDC easier to see and 2nd mod was to drill a hole through the pointer so getting the correct visual angle is much better!

To get an idea of PTV clearance I used the felpro gasket AFR recommends, I think 1005 (which I am not using but I did buy 1), I torqued down the head using just 4 bolts to 20 ft/lbs. Installed a Chevy stock 7.2" pushrod and did a 1/4 turn after zero lash on the 1.6 Scorpion rocker arm nut and rotated the engine. Measured the playdoh and was very surprised to see clearances of .342" on the intake and .263" on the exhaust. I thought it was going to be way closer!
So next I will clean the block and heads, install the .026" FelPro MLS gaskets and torque the ARP nuts down to 25, 50 and 80 ft/lbs using the assembly lube under washers and nuts and a touch on the threads.
Correcting for that thick .045" 1005 gasket, I should have PTV clearances of .323" intake and .244" exhaust.

UltRoadWarrior9

While installing the MLS head gaskets, noticed they didn't guite make it to the china wall as per the directions. Put a bead of 'Right Stuff' RTV in there before torquing. Notice those black 15850 lifters in the background

UltRoadWarrior9

Not everything was as easy as it seems. Had to grind some metal off of the ARP head washers for the number 1 stud. You can see how tight it is in there with these wide PAC-1934 springs!

UltRoadWarrior9

Instead of diving into VTG, I decided to do 2 things:

First was to check head to exhaust gasket clearance and gasket to header clearance. It fit the AFR210 pretty well, but the fit on the header not so good. It's very tight already between mounting bolts and exhaust passages. Will the copper exhaust gasket just burn away?

UltRoadWarrior9

2nd was to check the front engine bracket situation, especially to see if the serpentine belt pulleys were lining up, which they did...

Side note: Had a situation this morning whilst installing the harmonic balancer, it was not a smooth install. First, I heated it up to 350 in the oven, above the recommended 250 because even at 250 it did not go over crank snout. At 350, it still did not go over the crank snout. I did something stupid and tried to pull it on with the ARP crank bolt. Very stupid! F'd up the threads in the crank, was freaking for abit. Headed to work and got my harbor freight SAE tap and die set I bought 2 months ago. Was able to save the crank threads and the ARP crank bolt. Just the first 3/8's of the bolt was mangled... I wound up hammering the balancer on the crank, so I was curious about the serp belt situation, but all appears to be good at this point. Used anti-seize on the threads and torqued the bitch on. Hopefully I'll never have to pull that damper off! No pics of that ugliness... BTW only AC Delco Reman'd parts!

UltRoadWarrior9

A couple next stage dream pics

cardo0

Ya know, that stuck dampner happens a whole lot. Ive even seen pix of a bend crank snout. Good u got it.

U may have this already planned but just a suggestion as long as u are fittings things up its a good time to fit up a water pump and the serpetine belt. IIRC thats a fourth gen bracket it set yes? Throttle body looks pretty cool but will the intake duct clear the belt?

Thx for posting.

ASE doc

Heat up the damper? Never heard of that on an SBC, through the many that I've assembled over the past 40 years. For that matter, I've never used heat to install the damper on any make of engine. What about lubing the seal surface to prevent damage to the seal? How does heat affect that? Can't be good.

I've always used a harmonic damper installer, just like I use on every make of engine. I have a set that covers just about every engine made, in addition to having one especially for SBC and BBC that I've owned for 30 years. It has 7/16x24 thread on one end for the SBC and 1/2x24 on the other end for BBC. It threads into the crank and has a thrust bearing and big nut that presses the balancer on. Done it probably a hundred times. Works like a champ. It's a very common tool. You can buy a cheap one at the local auto parts store that will certainly work fine.

This is how I learned it 40 years ago and the only way I have ever seen it done or done it myself. It is the method and the tool shown in the factory service information.
You always make sure the seal surface is clean and smooth and lube it with clean motor oil or seal glide to prevent scuffing the rubber seal.

You never never ever use the balancer bolt to pull it on, just like you never never ever drive it on with a mallet.