TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

If you move it out you can could also seperate them a tad or even angle them to get to the schrader valve. The adj fuel psi reg will b another story..

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That is true about moving the fitting(s) over. I put some paper in there to simulate how the fill in would look. With the Holly adjustable fuel regulator that has the big thumb wheel on top instead of the screw I don't think it will be a problem to adjust it at all. That is also one of the reasons I am not going to bring the fittings out all the way.

The other is I don't want the larger threaded part of the fittings hampering me in screwing on the fuel pressure gage. I can easily remove the rubber hoses while installing the gage and then re-install the hoses after the gauge is in place. So I will go ahead and make this modification.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Okay, I moved out the area where the air fittings go. I also moved the right fitting over some to give more room to access the Schrader valve. This modification sure cleans up any possible air flow obstructions for runners 6 & 8. It also adds 2-3 cubic inches to the volume. Here are some pictures showing what I did.

I now have everything pretty much completed except for cleaning up some weld areas on the plenum and base. I will try and get the whole assembly flowed next week. Then over to the ceramic coater and then the installation on the car. After that on to the chasis dyno to see what the 2nd harmonic wave is all about.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Must say I been following your progress for long time and thoroughly impressed with what you have done so far, my question is, you have a name for it yet lol?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I don' have a name for it yet. Maybe we should wait until after the dyno results.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Just a little information update. I have set up to have the whole thing flowed over at Joe Sherman Racing this Friday morning. The base, runners and plenum will all be flowed together. After that is done I will take it over for the ceramic coating. Getting closer.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Talk about sick! thats going to take LongRunner TPI 2 a whole new level !

ASE doc

Neat stuff! Very exciting.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of updates. I took the base, runners and plenum all bolted together with gaskets as it would go on the motor over to Joe Sherman racing for a test flow on his flow bench. Using port 5 it all flowed 336 cfm. Not bad at all for a long tube runner system.

After that I took everything over to get it coated with a ceramic heat barrier on the inside passages and a black themal dispersent on the outside. This will probably take 2-3 weeks. After that over to Dyno Don's shop for the installation. There are a couple of other cars in our club that will be doing some dyno pulls so maybe around the 1st week of September we will have a club dyno day and some results.

Long Beach Z-28

iTrader: (1)

Great, just freakin' great, now we have to build a 600 plus HP small block combination to take advantage of this amazing long tube runner induction system. Way to go Allen!!

After breakfast tomorrow, we can go pick up the Chromoly tubing for your new cage!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"After breakfast tomorrow"

Ok, you are on.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Time for some 220cc heads with flow numbers like that

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Time for some 220cc heads with flow numbers like that "

Hahahahaha. You must be talking to Dr J (Bryce). That is exactly what he is telling me. I will need new heads to take advantage of the flow.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yup, bigger heads will prolly be needed 2 make that intake work!

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

if you decide to get new heads and want to get rid of your afr 195 heads i will gladly take them off your hands lol....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Actually I was I sent him an email about the airwolf series.. I have also been talking to Chad Speier... I got somethings planned for the turbo motor that should be interesting

skinny z

Remember the guy that operated the amusement rides at the fairgrounds when you were a kid?
He said " Do you wanna go FASTER?!!? "

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Orr, I am watching your project closely and I am interested in what you are up to.

I will wait to after the dyno pull before making any judgement call on the possibility of getting bigger heads. At least these are the Competition version so they flow 20+ cfm more than the Eliminator version.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

So where is this monoblade throttle body?

Oh and those numbers are sick!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"So where is this monoblade throttle body?"

Presently installed on the car with the intake system I am running.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Show Off!!!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Show Off!!!"

Hahaha. That was just in case there were more questions about the monoblade.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

very impressive work..... i bet your one of the few people ever to have a N/A tpi at these power levels.... its crazy to think that you have more rwhp and wtq numbers than a 03-04 kenne bell cobra..... i highly respect you for doing this.... wish you the best in your build...

White'89

iTrader: (8)

I guess it would have helped if I read your sig...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks. What I find interesting is that with my current intake system I don't think the runners are long enough to even take advantage of the 3rd harmonic wave like the LSX systems do in the rpm range I am running in. My current length is around 13.75". The LSX are around 16" in length. Maybe a tad longer. The only possibility would be what effect the siamesing of the runners might have in increasing the length.

If they do I don't think the pulse wave would be that strong like a clear cut wave would have with a proper bell mouth type entry. So I am hoping that utilizing the 2nd and strongest and longest harmonic wave will give me a chance for a nice increase in power utilizing a more proper bell mouth type entry from the plenum.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I guess it would have helped if I read your sig..."

I turned on the signture after your post to help answer yours and anyone elses questions. I have since turned it off again as it clutters things up to have it on for every post.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

By the way for general information and comparison. Here are some flow numbers I found for some of the LSX intakes.

LS7 Intake-330cfm
L76 Intake-300cfm
Fast 90 Intake-300cfm

I did not find anything on the Fast 102 intake by itself. Some information bolted to heads.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

wow those are good cfm numbers.... hey 1989gtatransam... would you happen to know the flow numbers for a FIRST tpi intake... i was wondering where does that fall into place....

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The First intake base that is on my car now flowed 301cfm untouched out of the box. This did not include the runners and the plenum such as my long tube runner I just flowed or the LSX intakes above. However the First does have the potential to be opened up substantially for far more cfm.

Of course air speed is very important, so one needs the right cross sectional area and cubic feet per minute for the motor size and rpm one is running. I just hope I have obtained those goals on this intake system for my motor.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

i see.....impressive work ken has done on those manifold... that is excellent for a tpi base...even better for a untouched base at that... judging by your work i dont see any reason why you would have trouble with your goals.... im watching your thread closely and seeing how far can one push a N/A tpi...... your previous dyno numbers are already past mild bolt on LS territory... i would have stayed with the gm type tpi with its slp runners and such but i dont have near the porting skills and what it takes to get the proper areas done as you... i also sure dont have the money right now to pay dr J to open up my old edelbrock base and slp runners and do the plenum...

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

The other port we flowed was better, 314cfm without the runner and 294 with.
That was out of the box on the First.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

wow... so 294 with runners huh.... thats good... that should support 360-370whp im guessing... i know this is a little off track but what are the edelbrock and accel base at with slp runners and accel or as&m runners... im just curious

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Should support more than that. Stealth Ram has been posted to flow high 260's to 275cfm and with a mild port job, I've made 400whp. I think my intake flowed 280's with the port enlargement but hard to say exactly...without measurements its impossible to know.

I think a 1205 miniram flows somewhere in the 270-280 range as well? My friend made 470whp on that

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

You can figure 2.0hp/cfm. Larry's program PipeMax looks like he is around 2.15hp/cfm. With some of the more advanced motors it is higher than that. The problem is accessing the available cfm. The more cfm you can access the more power you can make. This is why having the proper/size exhaust system with no restrictions is so important. It starts the ball rolling by pulling on the intake charge during the overlap period. The right airspeed/csa keeps that ball rolling and towards the end wave tuning comes in and finishes filling the cylinder. That is how you get a high VE.

The First certainly can be opened up to flow a ton of air. More so than my intake system in this thread. This is one of the reason I am very interested in the runners Ken is sending out with a 1.9" inside diameter. That thing could be dynomite on the right motor.

I figure with my current setup my motor is only accessing 245cfm out of say an available 300cfm. My VE according to PipeMax is around 104.5%. I believe my exhaust set up is doing its job. The smaller than desireable cross sectional area is causing the airspeed to be higher than it should be causing the engine to work harder to draw the air in. I don't believe I am getting all that much help in the wave tuning area. So with the new intake the airspeed and cfm should be right going by the calculations and the wave tuning hopefully is spot on or close.

Now if I could just get another 35 cfm through the motor.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

wow very good news here... so u think that the first can really outpower a out the box hsr and superram intake according to what dyno don and 1989gtatransam just posted about cfm numbers... well i can see why 1989gtatransam power numbers are so high... all of his intake components i think flowed well past 300cfm and he backed it up with nice flowing heads and dyno dons headers and im guessing kevins91z's tune... u really do need to open the tpi intake up quite abit to get any real power out of them.. i did not know that the FIRST close to 300 with everything hooked up.... 1989gtatransam really has something unique on his hands..... if he told some guys,( whos not a member on this site but hears the usual "tpi is a great truck intake and robs horsepower" )that he had a 430whp and 400+wtq tpi NA motor im sure they will say yeah right.... but when he shows that dyno sheet and video he will have MANY people speechless on how he got those numbers.... tpi deserves more respect.... gm made the intake and people like dyno don kevin91z and 1989gtatransam etc are just making a few changes for it to perform like it should have been in the first place imo

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

well i know (1989gtatransamgta) that you have been telling me to ditch my flowmasters 80 series.... i just may have to now according to your info.. also i remember you saying that my exit ports on my first base seem to be better than yours.... i wonder if he gave me updated runners to go along with that base.... im think he did because those runners were freakin huge...

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

so my question is what is the ideal exhaust system for our cars with tpi's... maybe i need to change some of that because i know flowmasters are some of the worst for flow which i unfortantely have..

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Any idea what the average inside diameter of those runners are?

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

i didnt check.... but i can check sometime this week... i have a caliper and taking the plenum off only takes me about 15 min... the throttlebody is off now anyway.. im curious to know now....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I think airspeed in general is too high in the AFR ports to make power up top (over 6400rpm) on your setup. They are fast velocity ports and can choke out sooner if the CSA is on the smaller side for the application. I think a well ported 210 head would help, perhaps abit larger...like a CSA in the 2.4-2.5 range if your turning to 7K rpm.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

How do you go about measuring the airspeed?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Usually when you flow the port, you can put a probe/meter in there to measure air speed at certain points. I believe Bryce (Dr. J) and Chad Speier do this as they give air speeds with their flow numbers. I know Speier flowed an AFR 235 head and its velocity is alot faster than his comparable 227-245 cc heads. Their thoughts are that this would lead to port choke on higher port depressions than the standard 28" of water (motors see wide range of pressures) on a CSA thats not large enough for the application.
I'm thinking these 195 heads are on the smaller side CSA-wise for this application trying to turn up to 7K. Its making great power, but I'd be curious what it could do with abit more head flow and abit wider CSA/slower velocity port to be more stable at higher rpms.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

88fastgta: You need to purchase Larry Meaux's program called PipeMax. It will give you the information you need for your setup. Just enter the required data. The price is around $40-$45. Well worth the price.

Orr: I sent the screen shots of PipeMax to Larry Meaux and the pushrod pinch cross sectional area of my AFR heads. Near as I can tell the CSA is about 2.050". He thought that should be good enough to about 7000rpm before choke sets in.

However I agree with you that it would be better to go say a 210cc head or maybe a little larger. My emails with Tony Mamo agree that at this power level the 210cc head would be better. Heck the LS1 347 motors are using 215cc heads to good advantage. I can't wait to see the dyno results of that 421 cubic inch motor with the AFR 195 heads. That will put them to the ulimate test.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What did pipemax call for cam lift to achieve those rpms?

That 421 will be interesting but I dont think it has enough cam to really push the heads. My friend has a square 4" stroke/4.03" bore 408 with base 195's on it with the 242/248 cam 294HR and its all done by 6000-6100 if that. Makes about the same power as my 383 did judging by similar trap speeds

I cant wait to see what mine does with the 245cc's

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I cant wait to see what mine does with the 245cc's"

Now that is going to be interesting.

With my motor and at 6500rpm peak power PipeMax calls for the following for the intake valve lift.
Min. .577".
Normal .622".
Max. .684".

I am at .595" which is about right for my AFR heads. Max flow is at .600" and does not go higher above that. Larry was speaking of the 7000rpm limit as the point the heads would go into choke with my motor.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Sounds like you are getting the most out of the heads then Next dyno should show that. I know my friends 406 made 468whp running a touch lean with a miniram on old style AFR 195's ported to 208cc and 300cfm, which should be very similar to the new 210's.
I was happy with how my 383 did with regular 195's. I didnt have the cam to support more than 6200 peak but it held that to 6500-6600 and I could shift at 6800 and not lose ET. You already have more power than I made.

Yeah, Chads V2.72's 245cc. Bret Bauer cam this time around...its gonna be wicked

gbayfisher

Been following this thread quitely since its started, and must say watching that intake evolve into what it is today is nothing short of amazing, props to 1989gtatransam and all the others helping along. Waiting patiently to see the results....
I would love to see what you can pull out of a complete FIRST setup!!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Yeah, Chads V2.72's 245cc. Bret Bauer cam this time around...its gonna be wicked"

Sounds to me like you are going to test the limits of that SHP block.

"I would love to see what you can pull out of a complete FIRST setup!!"

No doubt in my mind a 600+hp motor would be achievable. 1.9" I.D. runners would be easy to do. I think it is posible to do 2.0" I.D. runners. We are talking some serious air flow with those diameters.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

shoot i might be getting a truck here by the end of this year... if i do 1989gtatransam you can use my whole first tpi intake to test on to see what kind of power you can get out of it....

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"you can use my whole first tpi intake to test on to see what kind of power you can get out of it"

Actually I have one of the older ones available but the problem is the money I have to spend on it. My hybrid First is going to a good friend if this one works out and we might do something with it such as opening the runners up to 2" I.D. Then really open up the ports in the base. The plenum is already set up for a monoblade it one wanted to install one.