B4Ctom1

OK I got the NGK equivalent of the C59C from napa for 1.79 each! I cant remember the # right this second. but they will find it for you! Ok I got more info for you on my install. I purposely purchased my pro toplines with straight plugs to fit my SLP 1 3/4" headers, and that still did not make them fully compatable. The heads use a special plug, and those plugs are not available in a Accel header shorty, they are 14mm thread, washer seat, 5/8" hex, and .750" reach. The biggest interference seems to be #4 and #8. There is some improved fit to some of the other plugs on the drivers side now. Like I said the plugs on these heads are of the straight design, but the design from pro makes them angled downward some. This is what gives us a better fit on the drivers side. The # 4 is close enough to a primary to require the use of a cut down 5/8" plug socket and a 3/4" shorty wrench. The # 8 plug is enough of a problem that I will have to pull the pass side header back off and give it a treatment similar to the kind given for the steering shaft. you cannot use a wrench to tighten these plugs (unless this is a problem specific to the NGK's I got) because the hex on the plug is too far into the recess machine in the head. What I can't say for sure is that this problem could be just as bad with any header, but I can't say for sure either way.

Cruz'N Bruz'R

Yes, the straight plug design is quite recessed, so a socket is your only deal. Even though their straight plugs, the sit on quite a downward angle, that's Pro's solution to angle plug combustion in a staright plug sort of manner.

I have to remove bother headers to change plugs. Once a year will be fine with me.

B4Ctom1

my desicision was to "massage" the primary that is right in front of the #8 plug to clear the socket and the plug wire boot, and also to cut down and drill the center some of a 5/8's plug socket to make it easier to work on the #4 plug and it happens to make it easier to work on the rest of the plugs and my 91 too...

I like to be able to change plugs eisily. besides I gotta burn a chip and I dont know what may come in the future as far as plug fowling...

383backinblack

it should be noted that AFR heads are not flowed on a superflow flow bench......

the numbers obtained from flow tests on a non-superflow bench are typically 5-10% lower than those obtained on a super flow.

therefore, the numbers on the afr heads are even more impressive than initial impressions would dictate.

also, the afr's have superior combustion chamber design and excellent port velocity.

Ive seen the flow tests done on a bench, and nothing came close to AFR heads

Corvette0096

Ok Here is a break down what I have done with these heads. The install went good. There was a issue on the driver side. Power steering holes didn't line up well. No biggy drilled the hole out bigger on the PS bracket. Times with the stock D- port heads where 13.00@105mph. Now with just the heads and I bumped up to 1.6 roller instead of 1.52. I run 12.5@110mph. 1.81 60' times with Get this, Pepboy tires!!!!! And tranny was slipping in drive. Tranny took a dump on me this weekend. New Pro tourqe 2800 converter and drag radials are on there way where I will be shooting for a 12.00. That and a new tranny....

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Excellent man. What's your setup? Cam, intake, suspension, gears and such? I had one pushrod that was rubbing and I had to move the guideplate over. The engine would be in the car by now if I hadn't screwed up the steam holes.

I am supposed to get them back this week from the machine shop. Also, did you run a longer pushrod? The valves are .100 longer and you are supposed to run a longer pushrod to compinsate for or premature guide wear my occur.

Good times!!!

camarojoe

Hmm. Interesting point, I didn't know that.

I agree about the combustion chamber design, I've written a few times on here that there's a lot more to making power than flow #'s.

For those of you who's thing is flow #'s, Chevy Hi-Perf. got 209cfm from the ProAction 235's at .400 lift, while the AFR 210's are at 240cfm at the same lift. AFR 227 flow even more at .400. This lift and below is critical for a street sbc. Of course the ProActions that CHP tested were the iron heads, and they may be different from the aluminum ones. Both heads were tested on the same unbiased superflow bench. At least I'm assuming the #'s are unbiased.

camarojoe

Okay guys here's the deal. I just found out some new info, that some of you may already know.

First let me say this. ProAction vs. AFR=AFR wins by a landslide. AFR vs. ProTopline=very close, or IOW personal preference. I was reading the new CarCraft and they have an article describing how ProAction split from AFR and merged with the automotive company called Topline Automotive Engineering. And they formed what is now know as ProTopline. I was and I'm sure others have been and are confused as what the difference is between ProAction and ProTopline. Anyway, ProTopline has access to a new huge facility since the merge and they've done their homework, because of the extra $$$$, on their heads and that's why the new ProTopline heads kick a$$.

What this means is first, my above post is irrelevant unless you're running old proaction heads and second, the new Proline heads are really up their with AFR's and Dart and the other good head manufactuers.

Corvette0096

I have a zz4 short block compression at 10.7 to 1 Lpe 219 cam Pro mags 1.6 rockers,Super ram. Protopline heads 180 runners Svo injectors #24lbs Hooker 2149 headers random tech cat. flow masters. 3.07 dana44 52mm T/B. Gutted MAF. Cut lid. 2400 stall that is killing my 60' and Pepboy 275-45-17' The heads where set up by a Racing shop on a blue printed block. He said he had to do some grinding or the push rods would hit. The push rods where 7.200. harden $150 for them dam things. Oh on the spark plugs I run the NGK fr5's They burn pefect...

PLANT PROTECTION

iTrader: (6)

Nice gains.

383backinblack

it should be noted that im not saying the proaction heads are not good heads.....they are an excellent cylinder head....but compared to a fully cnc ported AFR competition head its just not the same thing

Cruz'N Bruz'R

Yeah, well fully CNC'd Pro Actions flow quite a bit as well.
If AFR's are soo much better, why are Pro's used more in the Engine Master's Challenge?

camarojoe

ProAction heads were not used in the Engine Masters Challenge. They were PROTOPLINE if you read my previous post. And yes AFR's are still the best, for obvious reasons like let's say that they were the heads used on the WINNING engine, duh. Joe Sherman rules!!

crus'nbus'r, I'm not trying to imply you didn't read my post, I'm just stating that ProTopline is kind of like an technologically advanced version of the ProAction heads that used to exist. I'm not by any means trying to be a di*k. The ProActions in CHPs database are not the same heads as the Protoplines that were used in the EMC, that's all I'm trying to say, and to why as none of the builders didn't use the AFR 227's is way beyond me. Maybe they thought they were too big, but those are damned near the best 23deg SBC head, period. I think they're the best personally, you can't touch the raceported CNC'd that AFR does. The Dart Pros are right up there too, if I were shooting for 600hp N/A, but I'm only shooting for 500, so the 190's are fine.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

How can I tell if the heads that just showed up at my door are PROACTION heads or PROTOPLINE heads? I was under the impression that I was ordering PROTOPLINE heads from summit. The heads cost around 1150 w/ the K2 spring kit.

ANY reply would be greatly appreciated.

383backinblack

im just telling you what ive seen in person with my own eyes on a flow bench

camarojoe

Don't worry, Free Bird, you got the ProTopline heads, the ones that kick ***! I just checked the Summit catalogue, they've been carrying the new brand of Pro Lightning (topline) for around a year now.

383backnblack, are you sure you saw the new and improved protopline heads on the bench? The #'s that Corvette0096 posted a while back on this thread are proof of what the new lightning heads can do. And those are the 180's :rockon:

383backinblack

yup the afr's still flowed better, and had far superior velocity, the AFR's also respond far better to modification

newer heads are gaining on AFR because they have been around for awhile now and people are cloning portions of their port and chamber designs

camarojoe

383backnblack,

I agree about the AFR's. I always preach that there's more to head performance than flow #'s and that is still why AFR's are still the best street head.

383backinblack

thats what im sayin......you can flow 100000000cfm at .100 lift but if your ports are slow, or inefficient and your chamber design is inefficient and doesnt promote good swirl than your still not gonna make any power.......

the AFR's are the best because they make more power, not because they have the biggest flow numbers(but in most cases they do anyways)

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Actually, not to get off topic, but there's not really a "best" street head. I've seen some "built" motors with AFR's that didnt make all that much power.

In fact, my ported Vortecs out flow the CNC AFR 195's from 0 - .600 lift AND have a better port design (taller port = higher velocity).

Just a thought!

camarojoe

Mike,
Any motor that didn't make great power with AFR's has some sort of problem. It could have had improperly matched components or maybe it was lacking in detail in one of several areas, like short block machining, assembly. It could have also had a couple of goof-up errors, which there are to many to list here. Heck, a 302 Mustang engine gained 100 hp from just adding AFR's to a stock engine with a bigger cam, headers, and a gt-40 intake. 100hp over stock heads is quite a bit especially on a 302! This article was in a recent car craft.

If you wanna compare apples to apples take Joe Shermans ported AFR 190's or even 89gta383's heads and stack those up to a set of Vortec Stage 10X port job and see which set makes more power. I also think there's a guy on here with a set of ported AFR's which flowed like 250-260cfm on the exhaust side and the intake runners were no larger than 215cc. I don't think you'll get that out of a set of factory heads.

mastrdrver

Anyone will agree that AFRs are probably one of the best $/performance out there. I told a friend about that CC artical with the 302, and he said that he wasnt surprises, he said that even those where some of the best flowing stock 302 heads, they are still terrible compared to the AFRs. I think that the flow diff between the 2 heads is over 100cfm! Obviouly when you have a head that flows soo much better, your going to have a great improvment.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

The article that I read in car craft about the 302 was, it was with AFR 165cc, a stock cam, roller rockers w/ the adjustment on the pushrod side, intake and headers, made I can't remember how much more power, i think it made close to 400hp. Thats with a stock cam.

camarojoe

Thanks for the correction, LilJayV10. I merely skimmed through the mag at a local Wal-Mart. It's even more impressive that that car had the stock cam. This article is just another testament to the quality that AFR puts into their products.

Scott_92RS

Too bad AFR had/has a 4-6 week wait on a bare set of 190's.... You would think they'd keep some friggin stock on hand, just in case someone actually wanted a set in a decent amount of time....

383backinblack

ya well the demand is pretty high, which is part of the problem.....also, when you make every set of heads to order your getting a much greater quality product....but the wait does suck

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

AFR DOES make a good set of heads for FORD motor's. Ford AFR's flow way better than the chevy heads, that's a known fact. Forgive me if I'm not a fan of their chevy heads, I've seen ALOT of motors in alot of fast street cars and the faster one's in the bunch (chevy wise), were not using AFR heads.

I'm not saying they are terrible and not worth having, but they aren't the greatest thing since sliced bread, so to speak!

Just my $.02

JR305

Corvette0096 those are the first numbers I have seen from anyone using these heads. Has anyone else seen any dyno sheets or track times? Was the tranny slipping when you made the previous run, before the heads? Looks like the heads were around 50hp bolt on, not too shabby.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

JR305 - how's the car running?

formularpm

I doubt many will dispute that the AFRs may be a slightly better head than a ProTopline, but is it really worth the extra cash? I got my unassembled aluminum ProToplines for $800. They may have slightly less velocity because of the extra 5cc port volume, but the flow numbers are great for what I paid.

B4Ctom1

somebody might have mentioned it but I think this comparo is about as fair as the boost camparo jut done by a magazine. AFR's are 'ringers', its not a fair comparison. AFR's are all CNC'd and cost more because of it.

383backinblack

port velocity is not determined by the size of the runner, although it is sometimes a major factor.....the design of the ports and runners is much more important than their size.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, that's why the Fast-burn's / Vortec's are better heads! Just because the out of box "numbers" aren't as high as AFR's, doesn't make AFR's "better" heads.

Vortec / Fast-burn's were designed like the LT-4 heads but to work with old school small blocks. Taller ports = higher velocity.


Didn't mean to change the subject.

If I had to pick the best head for the buck between AFR and ProTopline, I'd go with ProTopline.

Now, if I was born backwards, and had a mustang, AFR would be the only way to go!

B4Ctom1

mustang jacks run GT40P's, canfields, and TFS not AFR

JR305

Running good. I had to pull the manifold to fix an oil leak, its a good think that I did. Originally I thought I had felpro 1205 intake gaskets, the largest you can run on the stealth ram, but they were a size smaller. I am going to do a little gasket matching with the 1205s before I put it back on. Does anyone know if it would be alright to cut out a little of the gasket to enlarge it, seems like their would still be more than enough gasket to seal? It is about ~1mm too small for the ports on the heads.

383backinblack

wow, i guess thats why everyone just builds high buck big power motors with vortec heads then. assuming that taller runners is the only determinant of port velocity is just as silly as assuming that runner size (in cc's) is the largest or only determinant of velocity.....

length, overall shape, twist, size in a complete 3 dimensional plane combined with the surface finishing on the walls of the runner and the edges of the port are all factors determining flow and port velocity.....and they still arenot the only ones, just the major ones.

I dare you, and im sure any engine builder would as well....to build a 9:1 compression 350 with a fairly mild cam and get 500hp out of it with a set of unmodified vortec heads.

cause its done every day with AFR's

B4Ctom1

vortecs are the perfect street head, I aim high though. even with porting they stall around the .500" lift point but they have awsome mid and low lift numbers and a terrific chamber. Most people go for AFR's and pro's because they are aiming for something hotter than a "hot street" car. I absolutely love low buck power and vortecs are the king there. so basically, quit trying to tell us the oranges are 'orangier' than our apples.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

If you want an "example" of a mild motor that make's GREAT power with out of box fast-burn heads, take a look at the GM crate motor ZZ430. I guess 235 cfm (out of box fast-burn heads) can make 430 HP on a mild small block and you really don't need high flow #'s on paper to make more HP than most people are making on this board. My "opinion" if I'm allowed to have one, is that Fast-burn / Vortec / LT-4 style heads are better heads than AFR "chevy" heads. AFR heads on that same ZZ430 could probably make the same power, but it would have to achieve it with bigger flow numbers. Which makes me think that the Fast-burn's combustion chamber's, port design, etc..... is more efficient.

But hey, get what makes you happy. You are the only one's that have to live with your choices.

Good luck and G0Dspeed !

Mike (1bad91Z)

Hawk92z-TDZ

AFR has a set of LT4 heads, are they the same port design as the stock LT4 heads, flow any better?

Just wondsering as we are thinking of upgrading our LT1 to the LT4 intake, Hot cam and Heads and wasnt sure to go with the GM LT4 heads or the AFR LT4 heads.

formularpm

I just received my ProToplines today, the ports look great for being as-cast, especially for $800.

I was under the impression that velocity was directly related to port flow and port volume. Small volume + high flow = high velocity. I could be mistaken, but isnt the design of the ports and runners just a means to an end? (flow) This is why most good head porters try to increase flow as much as possible without adding too much volume to the port in the process. Extrudehoning is based on the same principle, increasing flow while keeping virtually the same port volume results in more flow and more velocity. Anyway, if the ProToplines and AFRs ports flow roughly the same, wouldnt the determining factor for velocity be volume?

mastrdrver

AFR may make a good SBC heads, but their LTx heads suck. I cant tell you the number of people I have talked to that have been disappointed with not only the flow #s, but the track #s they get with the AFR LTx heads.

formularpm for port velocity take a look at this post I asked a question about port velocity over on z28.com adv tech section and found out some interesting things.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Have a GOOD shop port and polish, valve job a set of regular LT-4 heads. That would be your best bet. LT-4 heads are a nice set of heads if you put a little work in them.

Since the Vortec port shape etc.. is the same as the LT-4 heads, I'm thinking about Modifying an LT-4 intake (like the Milican intake), for my Vortec motor. It's way less $$$$$ than the Mini-ram III.

camarojoe

I respect your opinion just as much as the next guys, but I will have it be known that I completely disagree with this statement. And no I don't think I'm any smarter than the average "joe" on this board and no I'm not trying to sound like a no-it-all, but I think this statement is rather silly. How are the GM heads better? If you've ever looked at an AFR head, you'll notice that the combustion chamber is neater and cleaner looking than about every other SBC head, except for maybe the Dart Pro 1's fully CNC'd or maybe some SB2 racing head. One of AFR's goals is to make their combustion chambers as efficient as possible, which makes them get as much quench as possible, the GM heads you mention also strive to do this. The difference between the GM heads and the AFR heads is that one has a completely CNC'd combustion chamer and one is cast. And when you combine the CNC'd chambers along with 80% of the intake runners and 100% of the exhaust runner runners being computer ported, this being the street AFR head, you'll notice that one clearly has more hp potential. It's not the extra CFM has that makes them AFR's better, I'm sure if you ported the GM heads to flow the same it'd be closer, but I still believe the AFR's would make more power. The reason that AFR's are an overall better head, price being no object, is because of the time, money, effort that AFR puts into their top-notch mahining equipment for the development of their heads. It's not that GM doesn't have better ideas and designs, or money, duh, they obviously are yrs ahead of the aftermarket, it's more that they aren't as specialized as AFR for putting out an all out killer street head. Yeah GM makes the best racing heads, but their as cast-port street heads are NOT the specialized street heads that AFR's been known to produce for the last 30some yrs.
I'll argue this fact all day till I'm dead rolling in my grave. Anyway, I'm just rambling, and I'm not trying to single you out by any means, I just want to get my opinion out in the open. So this IMO for everyone. By the way when did this become an AFR vs. the world post?

383backinblack

well ya that would be true if you lived in the academic world of cut and dry physics with finite quantities of knowns and variables.......but sadly thats not the case.....heat sink and dissipation play a role as they relate to expansion and contraction of the material.....and countless other variables...

thats why cylinder heads are now designed using computer models and not 90 yr old master head porter voodoo (which is sweet in its own right)

B4Ctom1

this is definitely a case of you get what you pay for. I don't even think if this was a reasonable comparo, I mean I could understand if this was a comparison of cnc'd heads of similar port size, and price range.

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

Corvette0096,
Can you give me the Proline Casting Number? Those are great exhaust flow numbers!!

Corvette0096

They are the one in Summit, 180 angle version aluminum. I bought the bare castings and had a local speed shop build on them..

mastrdrver

Did they do anything else to them but put them together?

Corvette0096

Polished the chambers and milled them down is all..They flow right out of the box.

AllGoNoShow

Corvette- Whose brand of valves did you install?