Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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When was that CHP test done? Those are really low #'s and I always trust on that mag to give the right #'s. If they are true then I think it's easy to say you get what you pay for when comparing PTL's and AFR's.
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__________________ 2002 SOM ws6 M6, the 91 never was ressurected after the fire...
Old cars:
91 Z w/383 , all forged bottom end, miniram, TPIS ZZ-X cam, Ported AFR 210's, Pro-built trans, Vig 3200 stall, Hooker LT's, drag susp., 17x9 ROH Snypers, and quite a bit more. 375 rwhp 375 rwtq.
89 Iroc, SuperRam, 219 cam, AFR 190's, sold to the old man, now has 406, runs 11's.
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I wonder if they bothered to put the 30* backcut on the valve like ProTopline recommends? I doubt it. There have been some members who have done independent tests on these and theyve flowed very close to advertised. Ill have real world, non-magazine ProTopline dyno numbers in June, Ill share them, good or bad.
Originally posted by Twilightoptics There really isn't a point to running aluminum unless you are changing your compression way high or have a knock problem.... or are REALLY into weight saving.
My Pro 200cc Irons were BEAUTIFUL and the HSR/IRON combo with a Felpro 1205 is PERFECT.
Don't know what you guys are talkin about with the aluminums, they are the same style casting.
I got my from Summit fully assembled.
They share the same cc and manufacturer but the 1205 gasket had nothing in common with my ports. I held a 1205 and a 1206 gasket up to it. I have seen the 200cc irons and they have a nice 1205 shape, but my aluminums were narrower than a 1205 and almost as tall as a 1206, much taller than a 1205. why would they do this? at the time I figured it was done simply to irritate me. I got such a sweet deal on them I thought I had it made. For the same money I could have bought fully loaded canfields from Competition products , and I wish I had now actually because they raised thier price now.
My recommendation: if you can't afford AFR's buy the IRON pro heads, the "gee-whiz" of having aluminums in the case of the pro-action aluminums is not worth it, spark plug problems, pushrod clearance issues, and odd port sizing cancel any benefit of being able to get them cheaply. As with all things, you are not getting something for nothing, and anything that sounds too goot to be true isnt.
When was that CHP test done? Those are really low #'s and I always trust on that mag to give the right #'s. If they are true then I think it's easy to say you get what you pay for when comparing PTL's and AFR's.
Feb. '04
180cc AFR's blow the doors off these heads, but at a price.
Originally posted by formularpm These are a members flow figures in page one of this old *ss thread.
yeah and he dynoed 274hp with those flow numbers, said he was running real lean, but still 274hp? People have put 380+hp to the wheels with AFR 195 streets out of the box.
Show me untouched Pro Toplines making that kind of power on a 350.
Ok you guys are freakin me out with all this anti pro topline talk...lol. I did buy a set of the 200cc aluminum pro toplines and the quality was questionable. One thing I noticed as the intake ports seem like they were cast abit off center on a couple of pairs of cylinders as the intake gasket didnt line up well. The problem didnt look as though it could have been corrected with a port match. It was a lack of material causing the problem not the usual problem of extra material that can be removed to square up the port. Despite this I figured I bought them so Id give them a shot. I have the engine in the car, but havent fired it yet. When I do I'll be sure to report my experience with them. If they suck I 'll just pull them off and get a set of AFR 195's like I was going to in the first place.
Originally posted by BaddAzzRS Ok you guys are freakin me out with all this anti pro topline talk...lol. I did buy a set of the 200cc aluminum pro toplines and the quality was questionable. One thing I noticed as the intake ports seem like they were cast abit off center on a couple of pairs of cylinders as the intake gasket didnt line up well. The problem didnt look as though it could have been corrected with a port match. It was a lack of material causing the problem not the usual problem of extra material that can be removed to square up the port. Despite this I figured I bought them so Id give them a shot. I have the engine in the car, but havent fired it yet. When I do I'll be sure to report my experience with them. If they suck I 'll just pull them off and get a set of AFR 195's like I was going to in the first place.
If you made your pro-toplines ports line up with the intake then you should be good to go.
yeah and he dynoed 274hp with those flow numbers, said he was running real lean, but still 274hp?
With the flow numbers that he got from those heads, that engine (assuming it was at least 350 cubes) should be capable of much more than that, his problem is obviously elsewhere. Maybe his cam has under .500" lift and hes not seeing the full flow potential, I dunno. Anyway, no matter what name is stamped on the casting, cfm is cfm; and 263cfm at .500" lift and decent mid-lift numbers should be good for 400-450hp at the flywheel.
Quote:
People have put 380+hp to the wheels with AFR 195 streets out of the box.
Show me untouched Pro Toplines making that kind of power on a 350.
Show me unassem. AFRs that can be had for under $800. Did you bring this thread back from the dead just to rehash old arguments?
I get the impression that my pro actions were supposed to get cnc ported and never were. I have seen other's pro-action heads that definitely need porting to run. Mine were atleast reasonable.
I got a set of the 200cc proaction heads in alm. flowed both heads not one of them flowed the numbers as advertised. Called them up thay were very nice to deal with thay even sent me another set to flow and there valve specs. And let me clean up the short side and open up the bowel. The numbers were better just not what thay adv. even after the work. the ex. side came up nice it flowed higer 190 range . One thing I did notice was the valve seats were all at different depths.But at the end proacton was a very nice comp to deal with thay refunded me the money for the heads and in talking to them thay use 4.25 bore to flow on.I only used 4.155. I ended up with the afr 195 heads out of the box but with a 30 deg back cut on the intake valves here are the flow # and sorry about not having the flow #s on the pro action heads used dam fax paper to print it on cant read athing on the paper Intake 200-147 .300-196.9 .400-243.5 .500-260.1 .600-269.6 .650-273 Ex .200-106.65 .300-150.8 .400-182.8 .500-192 .600-197 .650-201.6 700-203.5 And im not saying that all pro actoin heads are like the ones I had because the person that flowed my heads has seen some that did do as advertised on his bench and he does not sell afrs or proaction. My flow #s above are on a supe flow 600 at 28" on a 4.155 bore.
Hi guys, I usually post at IROCZONE but not alot of guys know what the heck im talking about when I mention all the problems I ran into with these heads.
Like it looks with alot of guys my set required dremeling some of the cast because about 4 of my pushrods were scraping. My accessory bracket also did not line up correctly, so a little bracket was made to help support the 2 holding it on.
Among other things....
This was my biggest purchase for my car, and I felt extremely po'd that they were loaded with problems, but kept moving along.
I have the aluminum 200CC straight plug's because I was told angle wouldnt have worked with my headers.
I have SLP 1 3/4 shorties and I cant change my plugs w/out taking them off, and one touches, even with accel shorty plugs.
Can anyone help determine which plugs I should be using if I do not want to take off my headers everytime they foul....
I have to have it tuned, its running extremely rough with an lt4 hotcam, HSR, and these heads.
Im running around 9.7 or 9.8:1 with the math that was done with using a thinner head gasket, my bottom end is completely stock with 70K on it, I figured id see what this brought me before I built a forged 383 bottom end but the options im looking at is getting rid of the toplines and getting some AFR 195's or having custom headers fabricated.
To be honest I dont want to do neither, It took me a month to get ahold of the headers with SLP being out of stock, and ive put over a grand of comp cams parts into the toplines.
Did anyone else experience the plug issue with SLP's?
yes, I had the same header clearance problems, the same pushrod clearance problems. This is because even the straight plugs face or angle downwards.
I have the same exact 1 3/4" SLP headers this is what I had to do.
I had to build a custom spark plug socket, and I still had to dent the #6 primary (ok because the primaries are so large) to clear the #8 spark plug. Don't even fool with the shorty plugs.
To get more info on plugs see my post here (near the bottom of the page):
Did anyone else experience the plug issue with SLP's?
Yep.
Quote:
I still had to dent the #6 primary (ok because the primaries are so large) to clear the #8 spark plug.
Same here.
The valve guides on mine were shot as well. They didnt seem that bad, so I ran it anyway to see if they were good enough to work...needless to say they werent, and the valves did not seal...
Anyway, these issues coupled with the modifications necessary to make these heads work with my HSR (welding material on the intake) would have complelled me to choose AFRs had I known about the problems beforehand. At least this information will be in the archives now so people will have an idea of these issues before purchasing them...
MAN! looks like the header requires some serious denting.....werent you worried with that tom?
I was so happy when I got my SLP's in and didnt have to dent anything, unlike alot of people who had to dent for the steering peice that was in the way,
:edit: didnt require denting for steering but would require denting to run full length plug
There is no other way to get it on except to dent it?
And are the plugs your using actually shorter than accel shorties?
....Yeah and I also ran into the sensor problem with my threads having to be re-tapped as well, forgot to mention that one earlier.
thanks guys
Last edited by 89Kicker_IROC-Z; 12-26-2004 at 06:49 AM.
no those are full length plugs there are NO SHORTIES in a plug that will work.
getting away from that primary and putting in a set of unburned plug wires will make some of your rough running go away. I had the same problem of rough running. It was likely more pronounced on my car due to the fact that it is speed density.
I was running 412 cid, super ram, huge monster cam. But fixing that primary and plug wire, adjusting my TPS, putting fuel pressure to a stock pressure, and seting my timing RIGHT AT STOCK fixed 95% of my rough running problem.
also changed to a fresh set of plugs after doing all the rest of it and it became a decent cruiser and drove well. But to get any kind of decent power I did need to tune.
Tom, im running accel shorty header-plugs right now, but I cannot get to 4 of the inside plugs to change them, and I had to put the boot on first before the header to kinda avoid the problem with the last plug on passenger side. It still touches and burnt the boot but it doesnt look to be melted all the way through but it IS touching.
Are you saying that I need to run FULL LENGTH plugs only and get rid of shorties?
Like i said the car runs with the shorties in but the car accelerates like crap, but thats also due to my fuel pressure being all messed up.
I tried running Rapid Fire #5's (which I still have) but it was near impossible getting them all in without putting them in before the headers, and the denting would HAVE to be done to run full length. I think the other plugs also touched, I cannot remember.
Are the plugs your using at the moment full length or are they a bit shorter than standard?
I really need help on deciding wether to have my header modified if those plugs are a bit shorter like I have now, if they arent I dont know how you can change them without loosening the headers beforehand.
These heads are so odd I emailed a company that has AFR 195's in stock, and I was pondering whether to sell my toplines and change to AFR's but my compression would be very low with them being a 68CC head and not a 64CC like my toplines.
I could mill them but it looks like id have to modify the HSR as well to accomodate the mill but I didnt want to do that.
If you know what plugs I should be running with these heads let me know and Ill look for them at napa or something.
there is a rapid fire plug, no way it would work without denting and I didnt want to do that.
Im still running into problems with the car and im looking for a way to change my plugs without having to take them off to change.
I dont understand what you meant about there being no shorty plug available,
I am using Accel U-Groove 576S #8199 set @.45 gap
Unless there is something wrong with this type of plug...it would make sense since the car falls on its face when I feather the gas and chokes up, is slower compared to stock tpi, and only feels like its making power @5000rpm and above
only way for the car to kinda-go fast is mashing the gas after I get it moving, anything in between slow and fast will choke the car
Last edited by 89Kicker_IROC-Z; 12-26-2004 at 06:44 AM.
You'll have to just live with removing the headers to change the plugs. Or you could by some flange spacers, but they're $$$. But they did the trick on a buddy's car who's on the board. He's running SLP Tri-y's and RPM heads, we needed the flange spacers
which weren't cheap, but they did the job.
89Kicker, the plug you're showing in the picture is a tapered style with what appears to be way too short a reach...I doubt that the electrode would even protrude into the chamber fully tightened...and I don't think that a tapered-style plug will work very well with the (at least alum.) Toplines.
Im using a gasket-seat NGK BKR6E-11 that has about twice as much thread area as the Accel plug in your picture...I think you're using the wrong kind of plug which could be part of your runability problem...and I doubt that you will get away with not denting the primary if you go with a longer plug, its a PITA to get the plug boot on even with a dimpled header...impossible without. And I installed about half of my plugs before the headers...there really was no other way.
Also, did you have to mod your HSR to work with the Toplines?
and this is because such a plug is just not available from Accel.
Those are about 3/8" to 1/2" reach and tapered. I would rather mash a set of headers than ruin the spark plug holes by mashing in the first few threads with a taper that doesnt belong to run a plug that wont even reach the chamber.
I had no idea I was doing this, I didnt realize they were special set of heads that required those type of plugs.
Tom thank you for letting me know this, hopefully putting the right plug in my car would turn it into no longer running like crap.
and I didnt modify my heads with the HSR, then again I didnt know I had to and just bolted them on.
Im not really experienced with heavy engine mods, it was my first set of mega bolt on's that I did with my cousins help, he basically guided me thru it, but he has a ford so I wouldnt doubt I did something wrong ...
I just hope I dont have to take the heads off because there is an alignment issue with the HSR or something...could you explain what type of problem would be occuring if it was?
Last edited by 89Kicker_IROC-Z; 12-26-2004 at 03:06 PM.
yes, the spark is shrowded down inside the plug hole
there is no projection into the chamber. also the heat transfer from plug to hed is minimal due to reduced contact
and I didnt modify my heads with the HSR, then again I didnt know I had to and just bolted them on.
The heads should not require any modification, I was referring to modification necessary to the HSR to fit a F-P 1206-sized intake port.
Quote:
I just hope I dont have to take the heads off because there is an alignment issue with the HSR or something...could you explain what type of problem would be occuring if it was?
Out of curiousity, what type of intake gasket did you use?
From what I experienced with my HSR/Topline fitment issues, there was no way to efficiently run an unmodded HSR with (at least alum. 200cc) Toplines. The Topline intake port is actually taller than a F-P 1206 opening, and furthermore the 1205 (smaller) gasket that is the max for the unmodded HSR covers up at least 1/8 in or more of the top (and highest-flowing part) of the intake port of the Topline. Even if you disregard the flow obstruction, a 1205 comes dangerously close to not sealing, or may not seal the Topline port at all, it could very well be just too tall...I don't know, I didn't want the risk so I improvised.
Even with the modifications done, I still don't like the way that the HSR (or any tunnel-ram style intake) entry angle pairs with the Topline's. Look at the very large "hump" in the short side radius of the port...the entire port is designed around directing the air gradually towards the back of the valve rather than right at the long-side radius of the port like most SBC heads...it makes for a very bizarre looking runner, and consequently it lines up better with a TPI-style intake manifold whose runners are nearly horizontal where they meet the head. With a more vertical trajectory like the HSR has, the intake port actually is directed right at the floor of the head port, so incoming air has to negotiate a 90-degree turn, right as it passes into the head.
Next time you have the plenum off, use a flashlight and look down the runner, you will basically see a wall of aluminum and you'll know what I'm talking about.
For my iron Toplines, Pro recommended a Champion V59C plug which has a shorter electrode than that Accel one. And it ran great with them. Problem is they were resistorless so the radio wouldn't work. Your problem is not your plugs for sure, it's something else.
Yeah the irons are totally different, there is about two pages in this post covering how different and to some extent actually better (in my opinion) the irons are compared to our aluminums.
Included thoroughly in those discussions is the fact that no such problems in the spark plug department.
Originally posted by formularpm The heads should not require any modification, I was referring to modification necessary to the HSR to fit a F-P 1206-sized intake port.
Out of curiousity, what type of intake gasket did you use?
From what I experienced with my HSR/Topline fitment issues, there was no way to efficiently run an unmodded HSR with (at least alum. 200cc) Toplines. The Topline intake port is actually taller than a F-P 1206 opening, and furthermore the 1205 (smaller) gasket that is the max for the unmodded HSR covers up at least 1/8 in or more of the top (and highest-flowing part) of the intake port of the Topline. Even if you disregard the flow obstruction, a 1205 comes dangerously close to not sealing, or may not seal the Topline port at all, it could very well be just too tall...I don't know, I didn't want the risk so I improvised.
Even with the modifications done, I still don't like the way that the HSR (or any tunnel-ram style intake) entry angle pairs with the Topline's. Look at the very large "hump" in the short side radius of the port...the entire port is designed around directing the air gradually towards the back of the valve rather than right at the long-side radius of the port like most SBC heads...it makes for a very bizarre looking runner, and consequently it lines up better with a TPI-style intake manifold whose runners are nearly horizontal where they meet the head. With a more vertical trajectory like the HSR has, the intake port actually is directed right at the floor of the head port, so incoming air has to negotiate a 90-degree turn, right as it passes into the head.
Next time you have the plenum off, use a flashlight and look down the runner, you will basically see a wall of aluminum and you'll know what I'm talking about.
That wasn't my point. My point is regardless of the material, the casting for a 200cc lightning head, whether it be iron or aluminum is the same, the flow characteristics are the same as well as the combustion chamber. Regardless of the material the casting is the intake charge needs to be ignited in the same place.
I was just pointing that out. the plug has a very short electrode, and is close to what is called out by the manufacturer.
I was basically going to say the same thing, I used to assume they were the same casting with just a material and a few other things changed. There are more notable things for example the iron 200cc heads are closer to 200cc's also they can easily use a 1205 gasket. our heads fit poorly if not at all for some peoples heads with a 1205.
They are about as tall as a 1206 and narrower than a 1205.
It's been a long while since I have posted in this thread so I apoligze for any repeat of information.
I have the iron 220cc heads and use a 1206 intake gasket. It matches up well, however make sure you glue it to the head so it doesn't move, there's really no margin for error. The gasket is a little bit wider than the 220 port and there was no way I was going to attempt and portmatch it. I am using an Air Gap RPM intake and did do minor portmatching with it, not for sure why I'm sure it didn't do anything. The engine is currently apart due to the fact I'm an idiot and installed the second ring upside down.
I always had spark plug problems, now I know which were due to the oil control problem and reverted to using a R44T AC plugs, after comparing the measurements in the AC catalog to the autolite/champion plug that was recomended. So I am not sure which plug I should run when I get the engine back together.
I was wishing that I had went with the aluminum heads, now it sounds like a good idea I didn't.
Originally posted by formularpm That may be, but no one that has the iron Toplines has expressed any of the port-alignment concerns that B4Ctom and I have.
Are you running the iron Lightnings, CruzNbruzR? ...if so, what size intake gasket did you use?
To tell you the truth, it took 2-3 times to seal the intake. I ended up using a 1266 gasket. Only because it was like an 1/8 thick. but I went through 3 sets, I glued the last one with body man's glue before I dropped the intake on, and it sealed good. From what I've read a 1205 is supposedly a near perfect match for the iron lightnings. The fact you guys are having so many problems with the aluminum is discouraging. I bought my set from Shaver racing and they pushed the fact more than once that if I had any problems to just let them know. Has anybody contacted Pro to let them know about your problems?
The reason most of us have not made issue of it with the factory is because the heads we got, well atleast what I got and a few other I have seen got were bare rough heads shipped to dealers for final machining. I beleive it is no fault of Pro's but more our fault for trying to swing such an impossible deal.
I purchased assembled heads from fastengineparts.com
I got em in about 2 days, I ordered BARE heads for $800, and I recieved them assembled ....hehe
Anyway I had the heads switched over to manley valves, comp cams titanium retainers, dual springs, shims, locks, guideplates etc and arp studs...im using comp cams pro magnum 1.6's and hardened pushrods.
this is why I really dont want to get rid of these suckers, I have like 700 bucks invested into them and would hate to put all the old stuff back on just to sell em to someone else....
I think the only thing that would be a bigger problem is if I ordered a set of ford heads
Has anybody contacted Pro to let them know about your problems?
For me, aside from the valve guides there was physically nothing wrong with the head. The problem lies with bizarre port....no doubt it it has to flow well, though (some of the deepest bowls I've ever seen). Like I said, I don't think there is anything wrong with the heads per se, merely that it was difficult to match them to my intake...and I definitely made the wrong choice with the HSR-Topline combo. I suppose the +0.100 valves were a bit of an inconvenience as well...
to be honest, I dont know what they were assembled to, I just gave the shop my heads and all my new parts and said here, put all this crap on and give me all the old stuff in a box and they raped me for 65 bucks.
Last edited by 89Kicker_IROC-Z; 12-28-2004 at 12:48 PM.
Protopline is no longer in business the way I understand it, they are supposed to be splitting the company into three parts, the factory heads, performance, and i don't know what the other is. Comp cams is supposed to be buying the performance head section. This is the information I got last week from my friends that own the machine shop.
FYI.
Dart has a new head out now, the platinum line, they are supposed to flow 15-20% more above .400 lift and are supposed to be priced about like the protoplines were. On paper the flow numbers outflow my 220cc heads and are 215cc runners.
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