383 Vortec TPI Dyno Results (and questions) - Page 4 - Aftermarket Product Review - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

Mike Crews · 04-28-2002, 08:02 AM

Ooops, I didnt mean to post that yet, oh well (I meant to preview it not, post it). Sorry for the spelling errors. Anyway, I hope that make sense. Let me know.

Went to the track last night. I can say that I was NOT impressed with the Power and Amp pulleys that I borrowed from a friend. They didn't seem to make any difference. However, I did have one good run, and I ran my best 1/8 and 1/4 mile ETs. Best 1/8 et 7.87 @ 86.17 mph, and best 1/4 et 12.447, but only @ 103.58 mph. My 1/4 mph was consistently down all night. I normally always run high 105 to 107. Last night, I made ten runs, and only hit 105 twice. All of the my other runs were in the 102 - 103 range (I lost 3 mph somewhere !!). The only thing that I changed was the pulley set (I even went back to my old standby chip, Crews 6). I woudn't think that the pulleys would have a negative effect on my mph, but I'm going to take them off and try again this weekend without them.

Warbird, I'm still running my best times with Crews6. I ran Crews7 and Crews8 last night, and 6 was still faster. However, I need some more data (more runs - without the pulleys, maybe) to add some more confidence to that statement.

Later, Mike.....

Mike Crews · 04-28-2002, 02:41 PM

Well, I got some time to review my time slips from last night, and also talked to some of my friends that were at the track with me. I think that I know why my 1/4 mph was down last night. I was rollng too far into the lights after I turned on the last staging light. Usually, I roll in and just barely turn on the last set of bulbs. For some reason, last night I was moving way into the light after it was on. I was actually "racing" several cars last night, as opposed to just running time trails. I tend to get a little "nervous" when I'm racing somebody (for bragging rights). I ran a guy with a Procharged 97 WS6 T/A last night. I beat him 2 out of 3 times. The time that I lost to him was only because a car had just blown up on the line, oiled the starting line down, and I spun off the line. My friend even had some video of me racing, and pointed it out to me how far I was rolling into the lights. That is certainly cause enough to lose a few mph at the other end. So, I'll be more careful this weekend, and see if it helps any.

Later, Mike.....

89Warbird · 04-28-2002, 08:05 PM

Mike, okay sleep helps, I reread the post about the torque arm pinion adjustment and yes that is how I'm doing it. I have mine set at -3 degrees. I think most of my problem is street tires just can't handle this honkin engine. Anyway, it was interesting to hear about your trials and tribulations at the track. When I am running strictly for E.T. and mph I always shallow stage. Then when I'm racing if I'm cutting good lights shallow staging I continue to shallow stage. If my lights are a little slow then I'll deep stage to cut down the RT and move my car that much closer to the finish line. Are you racing a sportsman tree or a pro tree? When I race a pro tree I always deep stage because I have never been able to react fast enough to redlight in a street car on street tires. On a sportsman tree it's a different situation, then like I said, it depends. So are Crews 7 & 8 made for better driveability or for WOT? My chip is supposed to be here early this week. I'll be glad this malconent FI system needs to be set right. I also already have the power and amp pulleys, but after frying my alternator I'm trying running with just the crank pulley to slow down the alternator. So far no problems, but time will tell.

Mike Crews · 04-29-2002, 08:20 PM

Hey Warbird,

I received your other e-mail too, I'll get to that later. Anyway, I run a sportsman tree where I race. I ususlly run strictly for mph and et, but Saturday night I was doing mostly racing (which is unusal for me). Lately a lot of guys at the track want to "try me out" becaue they think that I am BS-ing when I say that my car is running 12.4s. These are all street cars, mostly Camaros and Mustangs that are in the mid to high 12 second range (mosty all N2O, with a few superchagers). I really enjoy handing them their butt. Some of them are now saying that I am hiding a N2O bag kit somehwere in my car.

Crews 7 & 8 are both primarily changed for drivability. A few degrees of timing taken out here and there to get rid of some knock retard, some idle adjustments, and more fuel under 2000 rpm.

Later, Mike.....

89Warbird · 04-30-2002, 03:43 AM

Mike, what is your total timing advance? Base and computer? Right now I'm showing 35.7 computer with 6 base, way to much for Vortec heads. When I'm at WOT I'm getting about 2 degrees knock retard, which I think is great. Once I get to 34 total advance then I should have no knock retard at all. It looks like 10.35:1 is just about the limit for a 6 inch rod Vortec Head motor on 93 octane. I'll see how it does on 92 octane when I get the new chip. What kind of plugs are you running? I'm running Bosch +4's because they are supposed to be very detonation resistant. But I couldn't get them in a colder heat range.
What is your MAF reading at WOT at redline? Are you going over 255 g/sec? I took mine to 5200 today and I saw I was at 230 g/sec. So I think I will be over at 5600, that's my shift point.
Sounds like folks over there just can't believe that the proper parts make all the difference in the world. Just keep that Sneaky Pete NOS kit hidden!

Later!

Mike Crews · 04-30-2002, 08:20 PM

I think that Dean has been shooting for around 38 - 39 total (31 computer and 8 base). However, I haven't really been checking the total timing lately, I have just been making different types of runs and checking for knock signals. Right now I have virtually no knock retard at all.

I'm running AC Rapid Fire #8 plugs. They seem to be doing fine - no complaints yet. I really didn't know which plug I should run, so I looked at the GMPP book, and saw they listed Rapid Fire 8s in almost all the vortec headed motors, so I gave them a try.

The last time I checked my MAF @ WOT was BEFORE I went to 1.6 intakes and the SS runners, and it was around 210 at 5000. I need to check it again. I'm shifting at 5500 with the trans in drive and auto shifting. I have experimented with many different shift points, some higher and some lower, and have also manually shifted, but 5500 auto shifting always nets the best ets and mph for me.

Hey, I'll respond to that other e-mail tomorrow night. I've been working late the past few evenings, so I haven't had much "computer time."

Later, Mike......

89Warbird · 04-30-2002, 08:59 PM

It's interesting that Dean has you at 8 degrees base timing. He told me he wanted me to put mine at 10. I was waiting to see what he put for total advance. If it is 38 to 39 I'll probably get him to drop it to 34. I read a test quite awhile back and they didn't see a decrease in performance until they went to 28 degrees advance at WOT on a 355 Vortec motor, I think they set it at 32 total advance. I also read that the GMPP crate motors with Vortec heads have 34 degrees total advance on them, so that is why I wanted to go with it.

As you know less spark advance means less detonation. What temperature thermostat are you running? I'm running a high flow 160.

Later

Mike Crews · 05-03-2002, 01:46 PM

Warbird,

Dean actually had me start out at 10* several months ago, but I have been playing with it a lot. The last time that I went to the track, I made two runs at 6*, two runs at 10*, and two runs at 12*. There was virtually no difference that I could tell, even between 6* and 12*. The car did "seem" to run a bit better at 6*, but it was only by a few hundredths. So, I have left it at 8* for about a month now, and it has made all its 12.4 passes set at 8*. I'm running a 180 thermostat, but I have also run 160s as well. My car actually ran a little too cold for my taste with the 160. With the 180, so far this engine has never run above about 195 (even while flogging it at the track). Around town in traffic, it usually runs around 175, which is right where I like it.

Wolfpack · 05-08-2002, 10:27 PM

All i have to say is WOW...this thread has a ton of info in it. To Mike Crews: Sounds like you have an awsome car there!!!! Gave me alot of ideas on how i want to build my engine. Again WOW

Chrome · 05-12-2002, 12:30 PM

Mike,

Your heads are great. Vortecs are some of the best heads out there for the price and alot of ppl rip on them and I think its because of high egos that nothing can be better then their alum cnc'd heads. Granted the afr's are great heads and flow alot but combusiton effeciency is where its at. I'd rather put my investment into a company that has the funds for the top dollar engineers and technitions aka GM. Chevy high performance is doing a series of tests using the new GMPP HT383. Basically a 383, w/ a forged bottom end, average compression, and vortec heads. W/ a 750 holley and a GMPP Hot cam the 383 benched 440hp. This is only the second part of a four part series. I'm interested to see the numbers next time when they put an even bigger cam in it. I imagine in the last installment they'll port the vortecs something else i'm interested in seeing dyno results. I'd suggest anyone who's looking at building up a 383 check this series out. Really interesting. Those numbers also point out that its the EFI (or LTR's) thats limiting you. But don't let anyone tell you your heads are **** because they're not... Nice setup mike!! :hail:

Chrome · 05-12-2002, 02:15 PM

heh, if you are wondering wtf i'm talking about this now, i just read the first page of the thread, oops, LOL

Saywhut · 05-12-2002, 10:38 PM

Hey guys, I don't have technical contribution but I wanted to say Mike should put some pics of the engine (and car) up, they're gorgeous, especially the engine. Mike is like the Detail King, I mean that thing is SHARP! Runs STRONG, too!

Mike Crews · 05-14-2002, 08:25 PM

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the last few replies. I've been out of town for the last few days. I went to Bowling Green, KY for a ZR1 gathering, car show, and dragstrip shootout. Had a great time. Lingenfelter brought a twin turbo ZR1 that ran 9.54 @157 in the 1/4. My ZR1 only ran 12.45 @ 116, but Bowling Green (Beech Bend) is always about 0.3 slower than everywhere else. My IROC runs almost the same ETs as my ZR1 now, it kind of hurts my feelings (only a little).

Maybe I'll get some pictures up someday soon. I dropped and broke (oops) my digital camera a few months ago, and I've been too cheap to buy a new one. Plus I've been spending all my money on car parts. Thanks for the compliments everyone (Wolfpack, Chrome, & Saywhut). Well I don't have anything new or interesting to report right now. I'm going to get back to tweaking and get back to the track soon.

Later, Mike.......

jmd · 07-26-2002, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Crews
From a cfm standpoint, I would say that is ould be hard for any TPI style intake to compete with an LT1/Miniram setup (especially as rpm increases).

I agree. You should go for a Mini-Ram III from TPIS. If you're running 12.5's now, I'd like to see what you hit afterwards (w/ some tuning.)

Jer82Z28 · 07-26-2002, 09:07 PM

12.4 with a vortec motor is friggin awesome!
You've given me hope that my high 13's vortec
350 has more in it

You might have answered this already, but did you have to machine your head for the stronger valve springs?

I want to goto a bigger cam and if I can do the spring change without taking the heads off, even better.

Mike Crews · 07-30-2002, 07:22 PM

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay in my reply. I just haven't had time to get on the computer much lately.

JMD, I have considered the Miniram swap, but I will stick with the LTR setup right now just because it looks pretty much stock, and is kind of a sleeper. I like the surprise factor at the track. Plus, I just always wanted an IROC with a kick butt LTR TPI setup (I love the way the engine looks). Someday I'm sure that I'll end up with a Miniram (and a bigger cam) in the car.

Jer82Z28, thanks for the compliment. Like I mentioned earlier, most of the guys at the track think I'm full of it - until they run me. A stock looking IROC that will hit 12.4 - 12.5 surprises a lot of people (when they can't find a bottle). As far as the springs go, I used TPIS springs part # 700-132 ($125). They drop right into the vortec heads (after you simply remove the center dampner spring from them). They lift to .540, and I have at least 75 runs on the car at the dragstrip with no problems (plus everyday driving). I reused the vortec head locks and retainers. Hope that helps.

Later, Mike.......

Chris Ja · 08-14-2002, 03:04 AM

Mike I just read most of the post. I have a 87 IROC with a 350 LPE Dport heads,LPE cam,SR ect. I dyno 303.57 rwhp 343 torque. The intake is what is holding you back on HP. The problem is if you change to a SR or MR you are going to lose some torque. You will pick up some HP and engine will pull harder on top end. You have a strong running cars the way it is. You are running faster times than me with less HP. At this point to really see a difference in ET you would have to go with NOS. Just my .02

Mike Crews · 08-14-2002, 07:08 PM

Hi Chris,

Yea, I know that my car is making a living (12.4 E.T.s) on the big torque that it is making, but without the big hp my mph will never come up (still stuck at 107 mph). I've been thinking that I might try some NOS, but I don't know a whole lot about it. The car is running so good now, that I don't really want to mess with it. I've been steady tuning and tweaking. Saturday night I ran 12.45 @ 107 at the track in 95 degree heat. So, when it cools off this fall, I'm sure that I'll be in the 12.3s somewhere. I know that NOS would be a good bit cheaper than a switch to a miniram, but I'm just a bit scared of it. Plus, I'm like you - I don't think that a switch to a miniram would really get me much better ETs. I'm thinking maybe .1 or .2 based on the results of another guy on the board that switched from SS LTR to a miniram (Traxion). Not worth it to me. Anyway, I'm in the saving money mode now anyway, so NOS would be the only thing that I would even consider from a cost standpoint. Any recommendations on a NOS kit (type, brand, etc.)for my car ?? Just curious.

Thanks/Later...Mike

Chris Ja · 08-17-2002, 01:57 AM

Mike I have a NOS wet kit I am going to be installing. Most people say don't do it with a SR but I would rather blow the lid off than the engine. I have a few friends that have them and never had a problem. I would est that with a 150 shot on your car you would be running around 11.2 ets. I don't worry about MPH when racing because I have friend that trap 125.00 MPH and are just getting into the 12.9 because they spin half way down the track. They have there cars set up for road racing. No weight transfer.
Your car runs very good the way it is set up. I would not think you are going to get anymore out of it unless you SR,miniram or juice. Bang for the buck NOS. just my .02

Mike Crews · 08-17-2002, 09:12 AM

Hi Again Chris,

Yea, I hear what you're saying about blowing the top instead of the bottom - I can certainly relate to that. I never really thought of it that way. I'm looking into some wet kit options myself. I live right around the corner from Compucar Nitrous Systems, so I'm going over to talk to him one day next week. I really like the setup of the new NOSzles, but they cost a ton of money. Chris, thanks for your help. I'll let you know what I decide.

Later, Mike..........

Chris Ja · 08-18-2002, 12:44 AM

Mike a good wet kit with everything you need should not cost you more than $900.00. That would be for everything including the bottle heater.

SpeedJunkie · 08-27-2002, 07:47 PM

Any news Mike on the nitrous?

I actually just got a vortec engine for free and going to start my 383 project pretty soon and was wondering if you ported your heads and how much. I'll need new valves and springs but I don't know if I should just go for W/P heads or keep the proven vortecs. I just don't know if I can do a good home port and polish job.

WS6 Dealer · 08-27-2002, 11:05 PM

hey guy, ive got one question for you. did you leave the stock 194 150 valves in those heads or did you switch to 202 160s. i bet that might be a big part of your problem. my 383 in my chevelle uses a mild roller cam and ported vortecs with 202 160 valves. i make 435 hp ( flywheel) and 465tq (flywheel) the valve upgrade helped. Good luck

SpeedJunkie · 08-28-2002, 06:46 AM

See I forgot all about the valves........

...So the stocks are smaller than 202? wow How much for the bigger valves? Any 202 160s valves will work?
Now I just gotta get some extra money to get to the machine shop.......

DownUnderIROC · 08-28-2002, 08:40 AM

This is an awesome thread, great job Mike!

Your results have inspired me, I have a stock 89 GTA with 350 TPI that I just purchased a month ago, and I plan to build it for street performance with the occasional trip to the drags, on a budget. I just purchased a set of L31 Vortec heads to go on it

I plan to run the SDPC Vortec base with AS&M LTR's, and the usual TPI mods. Next step is the choice of cam. I am thinking of the ZZ4 cam or maybe the Crane 2032, remember that I am on a tight budget here. Solid 13's are my goal with 3.27 gears, stock auto trans & converter (for now) and street tyres (Falkens).

I also have the Compucar nitrous system off my old IROC which will be fitted to the GTA when all the engine mods are done. With a 100 shot on my modded 305 TPI IROC I went from 14.4 @ 94 to 13.0 @ 105. That was in full street trim with street tyres, wooohooo!

Anyway, I enjoyed reading the thread you started Mike, great effort.