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Old 04-28-2002, 08:02 AM   #151
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Ooops, I didnt mean to post that yet, oh well (I meant to preview it not, post it). Sorry for the spelling errors. Anyway, I hope that make sense. Let me know.

Went to the track last night. I can say that I was NOT impressed with the Power and Amp pulleys that I borrowed from a friend. They didn't seem to make any difference. However, I did have one good run, and I ran my best 1/8 and 1/4 mile ETs. Best 1/8 et 7.87 @ 86.17 mph, and best 1/4 et 12.447, but only @ 103.58 mph. My 1/4 mph was consistently down all night. I normally always run high 105 to 107. Last night, I made ten runs, and only hit 105 twice. All of the my other runs were in the 102 - 103 range (I lost 3 mph somewhere !!). The only thing that I changed was the pulley set (I even went back to my old standby chip, Crews 6). I woudn't think that the pulleys would have a negative effect on my mph, but I'm going to take them off and try again this weekend without them.

Warbird, I'm still running my best times with Crews6. I ran Crews7 and Crews8 last night, and 6 was still faster. However, I need some more data (more runs - without the pulleys, maybe) to add some more confidence to that statement.

Later, Mike.....
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 04-28-2002, 02:41 PM   #152
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Well, I got some time to review my time slips from last night, and also talked to some of my friends that were at the track with me. I think that I know why my 1/4 mph was down last night. I was rollng too far into the lights after I turned on the last staging light. Usually, I roll in and just barely turn on the last set of bulbs. For some reason, last night I was moving way into the light after it was on. I was actually "racing" several cars last night, as opposed to just running time trails. I tend to get a little "nervous" when I'm racing somebody (for bragging rights). I ran a guy with a Procharged 97 WS6 T/A last night. I beat him 2 out of 3 times. The time that I lost to him was only because a car had just blown up on the line, oiled the starting line down, and I spun off the line. My friend even had some video of me racing, and pointed it out to me how far I was rolling into the lights. That is certainly cause enough to lose a few mph at the other end. So, I'll be more careful this weekend, and see if it helps any.

Later, Mike.....
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Old 04-28-2002, 08:05 PM   #153
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Mike, okay sleep helps, I reread the post about the torque arm pinion adjustment and yes that is how I'm doing it. I have mine set at -3 degrees. I think most of my problem is street tires just can't handle this honkin engine. Anyway, it was interesting to hear about your trials and tribulations at the track. When I am running strictly for E.T. and mph I always shallow stage. Then when I'm racing if I'm cutting good lights shallow staging I continue to shallow stage. If my lights are a little slow then I'll deep stage to cut down the RT and move my car that much closer to the finish line. Are you racing a sportsman tree or a pro tree? When I race a pro tree I always deep stage because I have never been able to react fast enough to redlight in a street car on street tires. On a sportsman tree it's a different situation, then like I said, it depends. So are Crews 7 & 8 made for better driveability or for WOT? My chip is supposed to be here early this week. I'll be glad this malconent FI system needs to be set right. I also already have the power and amp pulleys, but after frying my alternator I'm trying running with just the crank pulley to slow down the alternator. So far no problems, but time will tell.
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1989 Pontiac GTA Nighthawk, 389 CID TPI, 448 HP 485 TQ. Vigilante 2800 stall Converter and TCI Steetfighter Trans. Spohn Suspension. 4th Gen. wing and hood, 92 GTA GFX front wheel back.
1/4 mile 11.742@117.8 on Drag Radials 12.22@118.0 on street tires, top speed over 180 mph.
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Old 04-29-2002, 08:20 PM   #154
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Hey Warbird,

I received your other e-mail too, I'll get to that later. Anyway, I run a sportsman tree where I race. I ususlly run strictly for mph and et, but Saturday night I was doing mostly racing (which is unusal for me). Lately a lot of guys at the track want to "try me out" becaue they think that I am BS-ing when I say that my car is running 12.4s. These are all street cars, mostly Camaros and Mustangs that are in the mid to high 12 second range (mosty all N2O, with a few superchagers). I really enjoy handing them their butt. Some of them are now saying that I am hiding a N2O bag kit somehwere in my car.

Crews 7 & 8 are both primarily changed for drivability. A few degrees of timing taken out here and there to get rid of some knock retard, some idle adjustments, and more fuel under 2000 rpm.

Later, Mike.....
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 04-30-2002, 03:43 AM   #155
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Mike, what is your total timing advance? Base and computer? Right now I'm showing 35.7 computer with 6 base, way to much for Vortec heads. When I'm at WOT I'm getting about 2 degrees knock retard, which I think is great. Once I get to 34 total advance then I should have no knock retard at all. It looks like 10.35:1 is just about the limit for a 6 inch rod Vortec Head motor on 93 octane. I'll see how it does on 92 octane when I get the new chip. What kind of plugs are you running? I'm running Bosch +4's because they are supposed to be very detonation resistant. But I couldn't get them in a colder heat range.
What is your MAF reading at WOT at redline? Are you going over 255 g/sec? I took mine to 5200 today and I saw I was at 230 g/sec. So I think I will be over at 5600, that's my shift point.
Sounds like folks over there just can't believe that the proper parts make all the difference in the world. Just keep that Sneaky Pete NOS kit hidden!

Later!
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1989 Pontiac GTA Nighthawk, 389 CID TPI, 448 HP 485 TQ. Vigilante 2800 stall Converter and TCI Steetfighter Trans. Spohn Suspension. 4th Gen. wing and hood, 92 GTA GFX front wheel back.
1/4 mile 11.742@117.8 on Drag Radials 12.22@118.0 on street tires, top speed over 180 mph.

Last edited by 89Warbird; 04-30-2002 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 04-30-2002, 08:20 PM   #156
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I think that Dean has been shooting for around 38 - 39 total (31 computer and 8 base). However, I haven't really been checking the total timing lately, I have just been making different types of runs and checking for knock signals. Right now I have virtually no knock retard at all.

I'm running AC Rapid Fire #8 plugs. They seem to be doing fine - no complaints yet. I really didn't know which plug I should run, so I looked at the GMPP book, and saw they listed Rapid Fire 8s in almost all the vortec headed motors, so I gave them a try.

The last time I checked my MAF @ WOT was BEFORE I went to 1.6 intakes and the SS runners, and it was around 210 at 5000. I need to check it again. I'm shifting at 5500 with the trans in drive and auto shifting. I have experimented with many different shift points, some higher and some lower, and have also manually shifted, but 5500 auto shifting always nets the best ets and mph for me.

Hey, I'll respond to that other e-mail tomorrow night. I've been working late the past few evenings, so I haven't had much "computer time."

Later, Mike......
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 04-30-2002, 08:59 PM   #157
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It's interesting that Dean has you at 8 degrees base timing. He told me he wanted me to put mine at 10. I was waiting to see what he put for total advance. If it is 38 to 39 I'll probably get him to drop it to 34. I read a test quite awhile back and they didn't see a decrease in performance until they went to 28 degrees advance at WOT on a 355 Vortec motor, I think they set it at 32 total advance. I also read that the GMPP crate motors with Vortec heads have 34 degrees total advance on them, so that is why I wanted to go with it. As you know less spark advance means less detonation. What temperature thermostat are you running? I'm running a high flow 160.

Later
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1989 Pontiac GTA Nighthawk, 389 CID TPI, 448 HP 485 TQ. Vigilante 2800 stall Converter and TCI Steetfighter Trans. Spohn Suspension. 4th Gen. wing and hood, 92 GTA GFX front wheel back.
1/4 mile 11.742@117.8 on Drag Radials 12.22@118.0 on street tires, top speed over 180 mph.
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Old 05-03-2002, 01:46 PM   #158
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Warbird,

Dean actually had me start out at 10* several months ago, but I have been playing with it a lot. The last time that I went to the track, I made two runs at 6*, two runs at 10*, and two runs at 12*. There was virtually no difference that I could tell, even between 6* and 12*. The car did "seem" to run a bit better at 6*, but it was only by a few hundredths. So, I have left it at 8* for about a month now, and it has made all its 12.4 passes set at 8*. I'm running a 180 thermostat, but I have also run 160s as well. My car actually ran a little too cold for my taste with the 160. With the 180, so far this engine has never run above about 195 (even while flogging it at the track). Around town in traffic, it usually runs around 175, which is right where I like it.
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 05-08-2002, 10:27 PM   #159
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All i have to say is WOW...this thread has a ton of info in it. To Mike Crews: Sounds like you have an awsome car there!!!! Gave me alot of ideas on how i want to build my engine. Again WOW
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Old 05-12-2002, 12:30 PM   #160
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Mike,

Your heads are great. Vortecs are some of the best heads out there for the price and alot of ppl rip on them and I think its because of high egos that nothing can be better then their alum cnc'd heads. Granted the afr's are great heads and flow alot but combusiton effeciency is where its at. I'd rather put my investment into a company that has the funds for the top dollar engineers and technitions aka GM. Chevy high performance is doing a series of tests using the new GMPP HT383. Basically a 383, w/ a forged bottom end, average compression, and vortec heads. W/ a 750 holley and a GMPP Hot cam the 383 benched 440hp. This is only the second part of a four part series. I'm interested to see the numbers next time when they put an even bigger cam in it. I imagine in the last installment they'll port the vortecs something else i'm interested in seeing dyno results. I'd suggest anyone who's looking at building up a 383 check this series out. Really interesting. Those numbers also point out that its the EFI (or LTR's) thats limiting you. But don't let anyone tell you your heads are **** because they're not... Nice setup mike!! :hail:
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Old 05-12-2002, 02:15 PM   #161
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heh, if you are wondering wtf i'm talking about this now, i just read the first page of the thread, oops, LOL
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Old 05-12-2002, 10:38 PM   #162
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Hey guys, I don't have technical contribution but I wanted to say Mike should put some pics of the engine (and car) up, they're gorgeous, especially the engine. Mike is like the Detail King, I mean that thing is SHARP! Runs STRONG, too!
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Old 05-14-2002, 08:25 PM   #163
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Hey Guys,

Thanks for the last few replies. I've been out of town for the last few days. I went to Bowling Green, KY for a ZR1 gathering, car show, and dragstrip shootout. Had a great time. Lingenfelter brought a twin turbo ZR1 that ran 9.54 @157 in the 1/4. My ZR1 only ran 12.45 @ 116, but Bowling Green (Beech Bend) is always about 0.3 slower than everywhere else. My IROC runs almost the same ETs as my ZR1 now, it kind of hurts my feelings (only a little).

Maybe I'll get some pictures up someday soon. I dropped and broke (oops) my digital camera a few months ago, and I've been too cheap to buy a new one. Plus I've been spending all my money on car parts. Thanks for the compliments everyone (Wolfpack, Chrome, & Saywhut). Well I don't have anything new or interesting to report right now. I'm going to get back to tweaking and get back to the track soon.

Later, Mike.......
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 07-26-2002, 12:40 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Crews
From a cfm standpoint, I would say that is ould be hard for any TPI style intake to compete with an LT1/Miniram setup (especially as rpm increases).

I agree. You should go for a Mini-Ram III from TPIS. If you're running 12.5's now, I'd like to see what you hit afterwards (w/ some tuning.)
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Old 07-26-2002, 09:07 PM   #165
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12.4 with a vortec motor is friggin awesome!
You've given me hope that my high 13's vortec
350 has more in it

You might have answered this already, but did you have to machine your head for the stronger valve springs?

I want to goto a bigger cam and if I can do the spring change without taking the heads off, even better.
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Old 07-30-2002, 07:22 PM   #166
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Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay in my reply. I just haven't had time to get on the computer much lately.

JMD, I have considered the Miniram swap, but I will stick with the LTR setup right now just because it looks pretty much stock, and is kind of a sleeper. I like the surprise factor at the track. Plus, I just always wanted an IROC with a kick butt LTR TPI setup (I love the way the engine looks). Someday I'm sure that I'll end up with a Miniram (and a bigger cam) in the car.

Jer82Z28, thanks for the compliment. Like I mentioned earlier, most of the guys at the track think I'm full of it - until they run me. A stock looking IROC that will hit 12.4 - 12.5 surprises a lot of people (when they can't find a bottle). As far as the springs go, I used TPIS springs part # 700-132 ($125). They drop right into the vortec heads (after you simply remove the center dampner spring from them). They lift to .540, and I have at least 75 runs on the car at the dragstrip with no problems (plus everyday driving). I reused the vortec head locks and retainers. Hope that helps.

Later, Mike.......
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 08-14-2002, 03:04 AM   #167
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Mike I just read most of the post. I have a 87 IROC with a 350 LPE Dport heads,LPE cam,SR ect. I dyno 303.57 rwhp 343 torque. The intake is what is holding you back on HP. The problem is if you change to a SR or MR you are going to lose some torque. You will pick up some HP and engine will pull harder on top end. You have a strong running cars the way it is. You are running faster times than me with less HP. At this point to really see a difference in ET you would have to go with NOS. Just my .02
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87 IROC L98 A4 best et 12.96 at 110.57 MPH on the motor. Forced induction comming soon
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Old 08-14-2002, 07:08 PM   #168
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Hi Chris,

Yea, I know that my car is making a living (12.4 E.T.s) on the big torque that it is making, but without the big hp my mph will never come up (still stuck at 107 mph). I've been thinking that I might try some NOS, but I don't know a whole lot about it. The car is running so good now, that I don't really want to mess with it. I've been steady tuning and tweaking. Saturday night I ran 12.45 @ 107 at the track in 95 degree heat. So, when it cools off this fall, I'm sure that I'll be in the 12.3s somewhere. I know that NOS would be a good bit cheaper than a switch to a miniram, but I'm just a bit scared of it. Plus, I'm like you - I don't think that a switch to a miniram would really get me much better ETs. I'm thinking maybe .1 or .2 based on the results of another guy on the board that switched from SS LTR to a miniram (Traxion). Not worth it to me. Anyway, I'm in the saving money mode now anyway, so NOS would be the only thing that I would even consider from a cost standpoint. Any recommendations on a NOS kit (type, brand, etc.)for my car ?? Just curious.

Thanks/Later...Mike
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 08-17-2002, 01:57 AM   #169
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Mike I have a NOS wet kit I am going to be installing. Most people say don't do it with a SR but I would rather blow the lid off than the engine. I have a few friends that have them and never had a problem. I would est that with a 150 shot on your car you would be running around 11.2 ets. I don't worry about MPH when racing because I have friend that trap 125.00 MPH and are just getting into the 12.9 because they spin half way down the track. They have there cars set up for road racing. No weight transfer.
Your car runs very good the way it is set up. I would not think you are going to get anymore out of it unless you SR,miniram or juice. Bang for the buck NOS. just my .02
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87 IROC L98 A4 best et 12.96 at 110.57 MPH on the motor. Forced induction comming soon
96 WS6 FORMULA LT1 A4 13.5 at 105 MPH on the motor

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Old 08-17-2002, 09:12 AM   #170
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Hi Again Chris,

Yea, I hear what you're saying about blowing the top instead of the bottom - I can certainly relate to that. I never really thought of it that way. I'm looking into some wet kit options myself. I live right around the corner from Compucar Nitrous Systems, so I'm going over to talk to him one day next week. I really like the setup of the new NOSzles, but they cost a ton of money. Chris, thanks for your help. I'll let you know what I decide.

Later, Mike..........
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 08-18-2002, 12:44 AM   #171
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Mike a good wet kit with everything you need should not cost you more than $900.00. That would be for everything including the bottle heater.
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87 IROC L98 A4 best et 12.96 at 110.57 MPH on the motor. Forced induction comming soon
96 WS6 FORMULA LT1 A4 13.5 at 105 MPH on the motor

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Old 08-27-2002, 07:47 PM   #172
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Any news Mike on the nitrous?

I actually just got a vortec engine for free and going to start my 383 project pretty soon and was wondering if you ported your heads and how much. I'll need new valves and springs but I don't know if I should just go for W/P heads or keep the proven vortecs. I just don't know if I can do a good home port and polish job.
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Old 08-27-2002, 11:05 PM   #173
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hey guy, ive got one question for you. did you leave the stock 194 150 valves in those heads or did you switch to 202 160s. i bet that might be a big part of your problem. my 383 in my chevelle uses a mild roller cam and ported vortecs with 202 160 valves. i make 435 hp ( flywheel) and 465tq (flywheel) the valve upgrade helped. Good luck
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Old 08-28-2002, 06:46 AM   #174
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See I forgot all about the valves........ ...So the stocks are smaller than 202? wow How much for the bigger valves? Any 202 160s valves will work?
Now I just gotta get some extra money to get to the machine shop.......
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Old 08-28-2002, 08:40 AM   #175
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This is an awesome thread, great job Mike!

Your results have inspired me, I have a stock 89 GTA with 350 TPI that I just purchased a month ago, and I plan to build it for street performance with the occasional trip to the drags, on a budget. I just purchased a set of L31 Vortec heads to go on it

I plan to run the SDPC Vortec base with AS&M LTR's, and the usual TPI mods. Next step is the choice of cam. I am thinking of the ZZ4 cam or maybe the Crane 2032, remember that I am on a tight budget here. Solid 13's are my goal with 3.27 gears, stock auto trans & converter (for now) and street tyres (Falkens).

I also have the Compucar nitrous system off my old IROC which will be fitted to the GTA when all the engine mods are done. With a 100 shot on my modded 305 TPI IROC I went from 14.4 @ 94 to 13.0 @ 105. That was in full street trim with street tyres, wooohooo!

Anyway, I enjoyed reading the thread you started Mike, great effort.
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Old 08-28-2002, 03:10 PM   #176
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To Mike Crews -

Hey, I need your opinion on my new setup. I finally got the car all back together (Hooker Longtube headers, six speed swap, etc.) The car ran a 13.30 @ 104. The very next day the stock bottom end started knockin' (144,500 miles "original motor") So, I built a 10.6 to 1 compression Vortec 355ci. The heads have been ported and polished, 3 angle valve job, upgraded springs,locks,retainers, cam is comp cam .503/.510 224/230@.050 112lsa. I'm waiting on the Vortec TPI intake (SDPC said that it is back ordered for a FREAKIN month!!!) I'll be running 22lb injectors with a AFPR, ported upper w/SLP runners and the ECM tuning will be handled by Ed Wright. This isnt the bad boy motor that I wanted to build, it's just something to hold me over for awhile. How much ponies do ya think it might make and what possible problems do you think I would be running in to? Oh yea, I also removed ALL the emissions stuff and will delete EGR/A.I.R./VATS from the prom. Constructive criticism only please!!

Thanks,
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Old 08-28-2002, 08:24 PM   #177
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Hey Guys,

I ran my best ET this past Saturday night - 12.39 @ 107.8 (1.66 60' ime). Finally into the 12.3s !! I know it'll run even better when the weather cools off. I'm still tweaking.

Speedjunkie, I have not moved forward on the nitrous issue. I'm still looking at the NOSzles, but they are so expensive ($1400-ish). I'll have to save for a while to afford that kit. Plus, I still like saying that I'm NOT spraying and running 12.3s. All my friends are bugging me to go ahead and spray the car, but I just don't know. All I did on my heads was pocket porting and a competition (5 angle) valve job. I also replaced the stock valves with good Manley valves for reliability, but stayed with the stock size (194/150). My machine shop guy (who does a lot of vortec head work around here) recommended against the additional porting and bigger valves, so I followed his advice. He said that I would get a very minimal return agaist the cost of the additional porting and valves. This is my first "big" project, so I listened to him. I have heard and read many times that the bigger valves and additional porting does not add much to the vortec heads (not like it might with other heads). However, I have no "real" data to support this conclusion one way or the other. I do kow that I will not be pulling my heads to mess with the valves right now.

Thanks Downunder, good luck on your cam selection. That is always a tough decision. I've always liked the ZZ4 cam. If I had a 350, I would probably run the ZZ4 cam (or maybe the LPE 74211). I think that the ZZ4 is a great cam, especially for the money. I said previously in this thread that I think the vortec heads and the ZZ4 cam with a 3.27 gear is an excellent and cost effective combo (and should be your solid 13 second performer). Don't negelect suspension mods, they're worth .3 - .4 seconds, and you WILL have traction "issues" with the torque of a hopped up LTR setup.

Hey Mike (1bad91Z), good to see that you're still working on your car. I'm really not very good at guessing hp/tq numbers. There are just too many variables. Your setup looks great to me. Your cam is a little to big (I/E durations) for my taste with a 350 LTR setup, but then you can tell how conservative I am by my "little" LPE 211 cam in my 383. I've seen plenty of people make the biggger cams work just fine. It will largely depend on how well Ed Wright tunes your chip to the cam. Watch your timing advance and your fuel octane with the 10.6 CR. Get a Tech 1 or other handheld to check on how much knock retard you are getting under load. Adjust your timing accordingly (either manually, or with the chip). Also use the Tech 1/handheld to check your Block Learns and your Fuel Integrator readings to see how your fuel system is working with the new setup (and adjust the FPR or the chip as required). If you can get your Block Learns right (128 ish), the car should run fine. I would also recommend some 100 octane fuel (or more) when you go to the track, just as cheap insurance against detonation. 100 octane works well in my car. Hope this maybe helps a little, I know it's not much (just my humble opinions). Good luck with the new setup!

Later, Mike
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 08-28-2002, 08:39 PM   #178
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In a motor like a 383 breathing in is as important as breathing out. What i mean is your not gonna use a wild cam with stock exhaust manifolds....... your gonna use a high flowing set of headers. When you have a cam and headers but small valves it only allows the motor to make power and torque in a low rpm level. By using a bigger valve for intake and exhaust it alows the chamber to fill faster as well as empty faster(due to the larger diameter). This allows the motor to rev faster and create more power in the upper part of the power band. Ive machined (ported) many heads and I prefer to use Ferrera valves. They in my opinion are the best for the money. Ive never wiped out a set of these valves and ive tortured many a motor. So good luck. Make sure to use a reputable machinist to install those bigger valves and give you a quality 3 angle valve job.
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Old 08-29-2002, 12:01 AM   #179
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To all using or considering Vortec heads -

I have spent a considerable amount of time in MANY speed shops watching motor's go together and have spent countless hours talking to machinists. They have all told me that they would'nt recommend altering intake valve size, however they all recommended using a 1.56 - 1.60 exhaust valve (stainless) and replacing the stock 1.94 intake valve with a stainless same size replacement. Then have a 3 angle valve job, swirl polished (undercut stems) then do throat and bowl work on intake/exhaust, machine for upgraded springs (that match your cam) and you would have a awesome set of heads for CHEAP!! All of this work has been performed on my heads (I'm using a 1.56 exhaust valve). I guess we'll see when I get an intake (if SDPC ever gets them) and throw the car on the chassis dyno. Hope this helps!

And thanks again Mike Crews, I may need help with the PROM tuning (when I get to that point, I'll e-mail you)!!


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Old 08-29-2002, 02:00 AM   #180
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Mike Crews,

I just want to give you a big thanks for this thread and all of the information you and everyone else have provided. I am really impressed and I, too, want my L98 to look totally stock...but to perform like you.

Thanks to you, and also to everyone else who provided this info.
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Old 08-29-2002, 12:18 PM   #181
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Mike crews=vortec celebrity at thirdgen.org

I'm envious of your 60' Mike.

I got my vortec 350 to the track finally. I ran a best of 13.7@98 at 4700ft air density.
with a 2.08 60' on radials.
that corrects to a 12.9@105
I'm running the puny XE262 cam atm

even my carb setup makes good torque, these heads are awesome factory heads.

I'm just finishing a vortec 350 in a friends S10, it still has stock manifolds so the engine could be passed off as a stock 305 with an intake. can you say sleeper?
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:37 PM   #182
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Congratulations on that 12.3, I knew you'd get there with Practice, and good suspension.

I wouldn't put any Nitrous on it, just drive and enjoy!

I'm in the finishin processes of getting my Z28 runing and down the track. I'm running Vortec heads but the entire things' vastly different than yours.

My heads are Pocket ported, valve jobed, as are yours, with the appropriate springs, the Pocket porting On the exhaust side espcecialy helped alot, brought the E/I ratio to 72-74 % across teh board, Bare.


Mine's Not a 383, but a 10.7:1 350. Forged rotating assy. Rpm intake,and a 780 holley, a bit more "basic" than yours but it should do the job, I'm running a Hydraulic XE 274 cam, which should compliment the heads nicely.
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Old 08-29-2002, 07:33 PM   #183
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Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the kind words.

Pony Killer, you were right - all it took was a LOT of practice (already on my second set of BFG DRs) and tweaking, and I hit 12.39. I think that the car is about maxed out now. However, it was 84 degrees and very humid the other night when I ran the 12.39. In the fall when the temp is cooler and the humidity is lower, I'm confident that the car will be into the mid to high 12.2s. I can't wait !!!! Your car sounds like it should be strong.

Jer82Z28, you have a PM from me (suspension info). Oh yea - I like sleepers !!

Mike (1bad91Z), just give me a shout when you start with your chip. I'll be happy to help where/if I can.

Later - Mike.......
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 08-31-2002, 03:07 AM   #184
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Wow, reading through this post has been very encouraging.

Me and a friend have been busy all summer putting together what we have thought to be a very nasty combo-

The block is a 50k stock bottom end 350 original to the car.

custom grind comp roller cam- 220/230 114lsa, 510/510 lift. - this cam was made especially to work well with keeping te cylinder pressures up in a LTR design EFI system...

on the other ends, we have a set of vortec heads, ported and had a great valve job done, severely upgraded valve train, SLP 1 3/4 headers, hooker 3" cat back, hi flo cat, scoggin dickey vortec TPI base, slp siamese runners, but VERY ported, ported plenum and a 52mm TB...

We are hoping for 400 crank hp, as that has been our goal. It seems that we are gonna be using a bit of a more brutal cam that what mike and war bird are both using. We can't wait to get the dyno #'s after the 1st chip is done up- but we expect that with the less cubes, and the bigger cam we might surpass our goal

When its all dynoed, we'll have the #'s up here for ya asap!

Steve
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Old 08-31-2002, 06:18 AM   #185
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Hey Steve (fb305svs),

That sounds like another strong combo. It's always interesting to me to see how many different combinations can make good #s. I'm looking forward to hearing the dyno numbers. Your cam seems similar (at least at a glance) to 1bad91Z's cam.

You mentioned Warbird - do you have any idea how his car running? I haven't seen/heard anything from him in a while.

Later - Mike........
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 08-31-2002, 07:06 AM   #186
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No- i do not know very many people on this board... be intresting to see how it was if he did have it running.

Steve
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Old 09-01-2002, 08:38 AM   #187
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Hey Mike Crews,

Just an FYI since you brought up the nitrous idea. Everyone I've talked to about them talks bad, and the two cars I've seen with them, ran bad. They didn't do two bad at WOT, but they didn't get the dyno numbers for the amount of spray they used. The big problem was a complete loss of off bottle performance. You get no spray from your injector into the cylinder, and consequently, terrible atomization. The analogy I think I saw on this board somewhere and heard at the track is take a garden hose with a spray tip adjusted to make a nice fanned out spray, just like your injector spray, and then put the end into a short piece of pipe. You won't get a spray coming out the other end -- it will stick to the walls and be a mess. True, fuel doesn't have the surface tension of water, but the cars still idled terribly, and had pathetic throttle response until the system kicked in, which sprays the nitrous and fuel out in a pattern that isn't choked. Just adding 2 more cents to a thread that's already rich. Later.
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Old 09-01-2002, 11:33 AM   #188
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Yeah i always wondered the same thing about those injector units....i would do a nice reliable plate system
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Old 09-01-2002, 01:14 PM   #189
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Hey Guys,

Yea - I agree with both of you. IF I decide to spray, it will be a wet kit plate system. There are MANY cars where I run that use them, and they all run great with no drivability issues. However, I'm going to tweak some more things before I dive into the N2O.

Speaking of tweaking (I like the way that sounds) - Today I put in a new Wells MAF Sensor (purchased NEW off ebay for $55), and I noticed that the car is idling a bit rougher than before. I previously had a "ported/modified" Bosch MAF from Mid-America Corvettes in the car. The car was running fine before, I just changed MAFs because I caught a good deal on ebay, and I wanted to see if the Wells would flow any better than the ported Bosch unit. Anyway, have any of you switched to the Wells? If so, did you see any change in your car's performance (good/bad)? Do you think switching MAFs might affect my car's "calibration"?

Thanks/Later - Mike.......
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 09-01-2002, 01:35 PM   #190
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i bought my maf from the same guy. did you reset the ecm already? it may help, i didnt notice a rough idle when i installed mine. but it is a little funky at low speeds, i dont know if its the maf or prom change though. i will have to play with it and figure it out.
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Old 09-01-2002, 02:19 PM   #191
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Hey Turtle,

No, I haven't reset my ECM yet. I'll do that to see if it helps things. Like I said, I haven't driven the car with the Wells MAF, I've just started it up to check for codes and idle stability. I drive it a bit too and see if it steadies out. That sure seems like a killer deal that we got on the Wells MAF ($55). I just couldn't pass it up, even though I didn't really need one.

Later - Mike........
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 09-10-2002, 04:41 PM   #192
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To Mike Crew's - Hey, I talked to COMP Cams about your setup and they said that my cam would make probably another 30HP in your setup!!!

Here are all the specs if you guys are interested:

Comp Extreme Energy Hydraulic Roller (XR276-HR)

.503/.510 lift
224/230 duration @.050
276/281 duration at .006 tappet
112 Lobe separation angle
108 Intake centerline angle

All specs are with 1.5 ratio roller rockers

1.6 Rockers would put specs to .537/.544 lift

I'm using my crane gold series 1.5 self alligning roller rockers because the vortec heads dont flow that much past .500, so my cam is right in the "meat" of the flow. Plug this cam into desktop dyno2000 and you'll see a BIG difference!


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Old 09-11-2002, 06:40 PM   #193
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good *** this is to Mike, you realize that you are putting like 500 ft lbs of torque at the flywheel if you have 420 at the wheels!!! that is awesome
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Old 09-14-2002, 07:33 PM   #194
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http://members.tripod.com/~Vette383/1986-IROC-Z.html Go here and then check out his vette page and youll see what he did to his motor. 12.01 in an 86 Iroc is very good and it was a LTR car!! Naturally aspirated also!

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Old 09-15-2002, 08:48 AM   #195
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Hey Guys,

I've been on vacation for a week (cruise ship). Found some Mustang guys on the ship to talk some trash to (and my wife thought/hoped that there would be no "car talk" for a week ). Anyway, that 12.01 in the 86 IROC is awesome!!! Those are the kind of numbers that I'm hoping for. I wish that I knew which cam he was using. Changing the cam in my car will probably be my next step, it'll just take me a LONG time to figure out wich one (still kind of skeered of nitrous). Mike (1bad91Z), your cam is one of the ones I'm looking at. The others are: the GM Hot Cam, the Comp Cam "below" Mike's (218/224, 495.503) - 89 Raptor is using this cam in an engine very similar to mine, and I'm also loking at two two SLP cams. I just don't know - it's a hard decision (but fun).

Later - Mike..........
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 09-15-2002, 01:29 PM   #196
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He had the LPE 219/219 525/ 525 but had 1.6 rockers on it making it 560/560. I have another friend with an 85 vette same combo and he went 11.35 N/A. This is a great combo and Im gonna copy the same thing because ive seen these two cars in person run numerous times and helped put the motor in the 85 and so I know they run and why! like ive said before, there is no reason to go away from LTRs because they can run with the right combo of parts.http://vette383.tripod.com/ . Heres his dyno numbers for the motor in the vette. Do you have AIm or yahoo or MSN messsenger, if so left me know here and I will contact you and tell you everything you need to know about the motor.

Last edited by REDZ28; 09-15-2002 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 09-15-2002, 07:55 PM   #197
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Hi REDZ28,

Thanks for the cam info and the links. I know that the LPE 219 cam is a great cam. I would have used the 219 if I had not already purchased the 211 cam (changed in midstream from a 350 to 383). I don't have AIM, or Yahoo, or any MSN stuff, but my e-mail address is smcrewszr1@aol.com (if that helps any). I'd be happy to have any info that you could offer about the engie combos. Both the Vette and the IROC are bad cars in that link.

Thanks Again. Later - Mike.........
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89 IROC, 383, stock block, cast eagle crank, stock rods, Speed Pro coated hyper pistons 10:1, Vortec heads (TPIS springs, Manley valves, screw in studs, pocket ported), CC XR269HR cam, SDPC Vortec TPI intake, 24# injectors, AS&M SS LTRs, ported plenum, 58 mmTB, cold air intake, SLP 1 3/4" headers, SLP exhaust, 700R4, 2600 stall Vigilante, LPE driveshaft, stock 3.27 BW 9 bolt, full Spohn suspension.
Track #s: 1.66 60' time, 7.86 1/8 mile @ 86.17 mph, 12.392 1/4 mile @ 108.50 mph
(Dynojet) Dyno #s: 302 rwhp & 424 rwtq (SAE/corrected)
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Old 09-16-2002, 12:47 AM   #198
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http://members.tripod.com/~Vette383/1987-CORVETTE.html This should be most everything you want to know. Your car runs great also!
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Old 09-16-2002, 02:44 AM   #199
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Mike

Great thread!!! It is so awesome that this thread has been alive for so long!!! Anyway, I have been studying it and the rest of the board for the past month in order to put together the meanest possible NA 383 LTR. I have several questions specific to your combo and figured due to the wealth of answers to previous questions in this thread I would post VS. emailing you.

1. How much cash do you actually have wrapped up in your Vortecs?

2. I have read that your plenum and runnuers are port matched, but are your runners and intake port matched along with your intake and heads?

Cam selection seems to be the only mod that you are questioning. As you state this is absolutely the hardest choice to make. I have narowed my selection to 2 possible options. In no order of preference: LPE 219/219, CC 218/224. I will not go with any more duration period. Now it comes down to the single pattern VS. dual pattern. Below is what i plan to base my choice on, just a bunch of misc. thread posting and other results.

HiTech5 says in another thread: "As mentioned, you have a combination that has been proven to work well by John Lingenfelter. John designed the 219/219 cam to work with cylinder heads that had a better than 70% intake to exhaust flow ratio. A dual pattern cam will work better with stock heads or where exhaust flow is below 70% of intake"

Traxion says in another thread: "I went 12.5's @ 107.9mph naturally aspirated on the stock 350 bottom end with AS&M SSLTRs and a TPIS Big Mouth base with CC 218/224 before I switched to the MiniRam. The car still had much more left in it. This setup would have EASILY gone low 12's with a better PROM and skinnies. A wonderful setup with a ****L0ad of torque and enough upper RPM horsepower to keep the mustangs at bay"

My thoughts: This stuff may be way off base!!!

1. The LPE 219/219 was designed to be used by a Superram setup with LPE CNC'd Vette heads. I mean think about it, this was John's badest NA combo in its era. With that in mind I believe the LPE 211/219 was sold for general TPI performance in different levels of modifcation and closer to stock or out of the box performance heads. The LTR vette in the above posted links runs the LPE CNC'd heads wich I think the 219/219 was custom ground for. This cam has put a bunch of Superram combos and only 1 LTR in low 12 high 11 sec range with AFR 190s or LPE CNC'd heads.

2. The CC 218/224 put Traxion into 12.5 with a 350. Traxion in another thread stated that after he switched to the miniram he felt that the CC218/224 enjoyed having some more RPM to work with in the higher reving Miniram but was definitely to small for the minram and has since changed it out. This combo ran on out of box AFR 190s, I am not 100% sure of out of box though. My belief is that if Traxion thought the cam liked a little more intake it will definitely like a few more cubes. Traxion has the only car that I know of that has reults posted with this cam.

FACT: The exhaust flow of stock exhaust valve sized Vortec heads leave a bit to be desired.

Anyway Guys, Please be gentle as this is my first ever post!

Mark
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Old 09-16-2002, 02:52 PM   #200
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Supercharge that batch!!!!
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Old 09-16-2002, 02:52 PM
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