88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

You may like Solidedge a little better then. Instead of the usual sketch->create feature steps, there's a "synchronous" mode that allows you to grab a face, edge, or vertex, and dynamically change it, with little regard to parent or child features. I cut my solid modeling teeth on Unigraphics NX-4, and I like that interface the most probably. It almost seems too simple, on the verge of primitive, but it just works. I haven't found anything yet that its missing.

I prefer to draw my own mastercam geometry rather than importing geometry from somewhere else. Give me an old fashioned print, and I'll draw whatever lines I need to make the part.

The_Punisher454

Right on, I'll look into solid edge for sure then. I kinda like some of the parametric features in solidworks, but I really HATE having to draw so many 2d sketches. I'm used to working almost 100% in a 3d environment and only check isometric 2d views for precise alignment an measurement. But of course thats in a 3d art package and I can understand why there are some of the workflow differences, but it seems like a PITA and seems to take a lot more time.

89_RS

I came up with a 3 axis Bridgeport style knee mill and an add on rotary table. I could do alot of things with it fairly quickly. Then again, not that I'd want to do an entire TB like that. The time spent with the boring bar would be pretty hefty.

The_Punisher454

If I had a bridgeport and rotary table at home I think I'd make a TB or two. The radius on the bores looks like the only tricky part. I just checked prices on big radius cutters, kinda spendy. You could make your own cutter, or do the radius in steps and then hand blend it. Plenty of options and opportunity for creativity.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

If I were gonna do it on manual machines, I'd mill the outside contour, and then bolt it to a faceplate and turn the bores on the lathe. That way you could easily make your own radius tool out of a $10 HSS toolbit.

Edit:
BTW if anyone's on the edge of their seats waiting for progress, I did try and use the live tooling to mill flats on a piece of 5/16" bar stock. That one got a big red X marked in the "FAIL" column. A piece that small stuck out 3" just turns to spaghetti when you get an end mill close to it. Definitely more than one way to make that part though. I'll probably end up putting the stock in a mini V-block, and doing it in the mill. I'll be buying close tolerance stock, so I won't need to do any centerless grinding or anything like that.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

This project hasnt been abandoned. I sourced a chunk of stock from school, and put in an order to McMaster Carr for the rest of the stuff I need to get started. The bearings I got don't quite fit as snug on the shaft as I'd like, but I think I'll be able to knurl the end of the shaft to get a little better fit. I was completely guessing on the springs, but it seems these will work great! I have a plan to hide the springs within the"hub" part of the linkages, which should end up pretty clean looking. Still haven't thought of any clever ways to incorporate a cable bracket, but any aftermarket Holley style bracket should work.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Check out the third throttlebody down. Close to the one I was talking about in a previous post. The one I have seen before didnt have the center between the two blades. Also poke around and see what they use for bore size on their 8barrel setups. nifty stuff.
http://www.kinsler.com/page--Throttle-Bodies--22.html

I also like what they use for fuel PSI. Read 3rd paragraph of GROUP FIRED.
http://www.kinsler.com/page--Throttle-Bodies--22.html

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Great site. Thanks for the link. I'm liking that they sell their linkage and brackets separately! I'll have to look into that.
I wonder what injectors their running that can idle good with the pressure at 72 PSI??

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=88gunmetalgta;5109338]Great site. Thanks for the link. I'm liking that they sell their linkage and brackets separately! I'll have to look into that.
I wonder what injectors their running that can idle good with the pressure at 72 PSI??[/QUOTE


Most injs can idle with that psi. Some older designs won't tho. More fuel psi= better attomization and the o2 controls how much fuel goes in. (waaaay simplified of course)

The_Punisher454

I know Bosch design III injectors work great at higher pressure levels. I would assume that the newer Delphi and Siemens types do also, although I have no experience with those.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Come to think of it, I'd only heard of problems with stocker injectors, and mostly TBI at that.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

small update:
I got all the programming done over my long Christmas weekend. I have to consult with someone who knows the machine better than I do, and then I can post the G-code. I did the programming in an educational version, so I can only post-process it at school, an hour away from the mill :-/
Hopefully, the next weekend the mill isn't running overtime, I can start making chips. I have two hours worth of machine time, so it should make for a pretty long day/weekend, unless everything goes much more smoothly than I expect it to.

I also revised my design of the throttle blades. Based on the Kinsler designs, I will mill the blades in an oval shape, with an angle on the leading and trailing edges. That way, the throttle blades cannot bind in the closed position.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Finally!

89_RS

AWESOME!!! Take a little sand paper on a Dremel and polish it up and it'll be a thing of beauty.

gbayfisher

very well done, you doing an external type IAc or built in?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

The throttle body will be anodized red.

I made two mistakes in my programming, there is a small nick on the top of one of the bores, and I also ended up taking most of my IAC surface off. I may bolt on a block for the IAC, or I may use an external type. I have a few options as far as that goes. The blemish in the top of the bore will be welded and sanded smooth.

I want to get the machining done on the sides and bottom of the body, and the shafts and blades mounted, then I will finalize my linkage and IAC configuration.

gbayfisher

Bolt on block IAC will work good,. You going to use a LS or early type IAC?
Are you building the throttle linkage brackets from scratch?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I will be using the LS style IAC.

Bracketry and linkage is still up in the air completely. I would like to see a varying radius cable track such as what the LS1 TB's use, but I'm not sure if I have the room for it while keeping pedal travel sufficiently long. But, yes, I will be making it all myself.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Making chips again tonight. Working on the two sides and maybe I'll get to the bottom setup too.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Well I got both sides done last night, I went to set up the bottom and crashed it due to another programming glitch. I mushed the center drill at one of the mount holes. So now I have to get the hardened drill point out of there and clean up the area where the collet ran into it. Bad things happen when the machine doesn't pick up a height offset I wish my boss would fix his post processor, there's just too many edits that have to be made to make a program run right, and chances are a guys gonna miss one every once in a while. Oh well, at least it's on the bottom.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

More pics. I have to take a second look at my IAC setup and finish the seat and bore from the back of the throttle body, and also I will have to drill and tap a couple holes for stops at 0 and 90*. Everything is shaping up nicely though. Luckily my few mistakes haven't really hurt any functionality.

gbayfisher

Thats looking pretty sweet. The mounting hole marring should not be a problem, hard to tell how deep it is, but you could always build it back in with some weld.

I know they are not attached to the shafts , but do the blades travel freely in the bore?

I see you have the TPS mounted, looks good. Did you figure out the IAC mounting?

You're almost there!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

That was just a blade I made for practice. I have a pic on the previous page of the bore I made. The blade would not fall through the bore, but it would spin nicely.

gbayfisher

Thats good.

What size bores are they again, and what type of flow rate you expect?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

1.75" bores. Hopefully it will be comparable to the other 4150 style throttle bodies on the market, but if I were to put a carb on my engine, it would likely be a 750, so I'm thinking the throttle body will flow just fine for my app.

gbayfisher

It sure will flow more than you need.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Looking good!!!
If you happened to miss it, the throttle blades don't close flat but at a bit of a angle. How do you go about angle cutting the sides of the throttle plates?? And would they still be "round"? or a lil oblong?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

What, you've never turned an ellipse before??

I'll turn a blank on the lathe, and drill the two screw holes with the live tooling. Then I'll throw it in the mill, turn the 4th axis 14*, and run an endmill around it in a circle. Since the blade is "tipped" to one side, it will end up elliptical with angled edges. I will also knife edge one side of the blade while it's in the lathe. That way it will have a very small cross section at the leading edge as it opens, and will stay slightly thicker at the pivot point.

Blades are the easy part. How am I gonna measure the angles across the shaft since the flats for the blades and the flat for the TPS are not parallel, and don't appear to be at an easy angle like 45 or 90? I'm thinking I'm gonna have to make the TPS flat first, put the shaft in a rotary indexer and actually hook up the TPS so I can measure the voltage output, and locate the flats for the blades that way.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Very nice. I have never done anything like what you are doing soo Im asking a few questions
Soooo the blades are the easy part huh? I wonder if you could build me a 52mm mono blade for my TPI Tbody ??? I built one years ago with a hacksaw and hand file. Took a bit of time lol. Its been on the 89 car since 91 and works fine buuuut it may look a tad better if it was done like that..

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

How often are you looking at your TB blade??? Lol The tough part about that would be getting accurate geometry to fit your hand-made (I'm guessing) port. That's why mine are so easy, they're just circles. Also I'd have to start with stock that's already at the right thickness, since I wouldn't be able to use the lathe cut it to length.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

you'd be surprised at how often someone wants to see that thing!

My mono 58 is on top and the org 52mm mono is on bottom..

The_Punisher454

I just built a TB adaptor for somebody and had to add an IAC to it. I discovered that the IAC (LS1 style) seat can be made with a 5/8" 120degree countersink bit. In fact I suspect that is what its patterned after. Needless to say I was very happy to see that the part I was most concerned about getting right ended up being the easiest part.
Your 4-barrel looks great BTW!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Interesting! The IAC seat in my LS1 TB is flat. I think I will continue with that design since I only have .078" minus about .01 for drill runout between the top and bottom holes (can be seen in the pics). I will have to hit that depth exactly in order to avoid a vacuum leak. I think the only change I'll have to make due to my screwup is to add in a simple block with a hole in it to make up for the stock I lost. I can probably even attach the block first, and then mill the IAC bore as an assembly.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Got bored at work tonight.
Second pic shows how they get thinner at the edges.
I still have to mill these into an elliptical shape with the angles an the leading and trailing edges.

thebuffalo

this is seriously nice. if you make one that fits an 05 tiburon i'll test it out for you

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Still making progress... Went in to the shop today, but there was still a mold component in the machine, so I couldn't mill anything today, but I finished programming the last part I need.
You can see the linkage is coming together. The springs I bought are too stiff, I'm gonna have to order a new pair of springs.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Some more pics. Getting close now!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I finished the linkage and bolted it on the car last night to test, and it ran!!!
I need to buy throttle and TV cables, and a holley style throttle bracket before I can install it permanently. Also, I don't yet have the IAC done, and I need to drill and tap the spacer for vacuum ports and MAP sensor.

Some of you may be wondering why its on sideways; well, that was not intentional No harm done, I don't think it will affect anything.

gbayfisher

Nice to hear that its working so far. So did you figure out where are you mounting the IAC motor?

Why do you need new cables?
Did you make a new cable bracket, and where are you mounting it?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

The IAC motor will go in the "back" of the body. I just haven't Machined that part yet. (now its the left hand side). Mounted this way, I can get away with a 1/2" spacer, whereas the standard orientation I would have to use a 1" spacer. As it is now, I still will not be able to run the extreme velocity carb hat I want damn these GTAs that only look good with the original hood!

I need new cables because they will provide additional adjustability, and versatility as far as mounting them. Also I lost my original TPI throttle cable... I will be running an off the shelf Holley style bracket.

gbayfisher

Yep, darn GTA's only look good with factory hoods and rims!! No denying that.
Where does the extra clearance come from the new orientation?
Instead of carb hat, have you considered a 360 degree filter and drop down base?

Are you attaching the IAC directly to the TB, or building an attachment block to mount it too?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

It will be like this:

The linkage sticks out from the side of the throttle body a little bit, and would interfere with the fuel rails if it were on there in the normal orientation.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

IAC is done!
I need to drill and tap my spacer for vac fittings, and then I can do a fully functional test! I don't have new cables yet, but everything else should work right.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

http://youtu.be/ycvE8am3xEA

Here's a quick video. Excuse the squeaking belt.... The camera picked it up a lot louder than it actually is. I didn't change the tune a little bit, but throttle response is pretty good all things considered. Idle still hangs a little high; there's a lot of air moving through at closed throttle. The blades seal off pretty good, particularly the secondaries, but there's still quite a bit of air being drawn through. Maybe I can drop some spark advance and make it idle nice?

gbayfisher

Nice to see the finished product! You should be able to get it to idle it down. How is the Iac seating , and is it adjusted? Try blocking the iac port to see if it stalls out.

GTAmazing

A fine job you did there. How many hours do you think you spent on it?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

30, not including time spent brainstorming, drawing, or programming. The second time around would take quite a bit less time.

GTAmazing

Being a machinist myself and knowing what it takes to produce something like that, I applaud your finished product and creativeness to make your own throttle body. There must be a high level of satisfaction in knowing you turned a square block of aluminum into a beautiful working TB.

However with the average machinist making $30/h coupled with the BBK being less than $400 and Accufab at around $500 I 'd rather buy one and use my time elsewhere.

I have guys ask me to make things for them all the time. I usually tell them it's cheaper for you to go buy one. I'm not bashing on you or your work it's just my opinion.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

At this point, I still find myself with much more time than money as I said before, significant time savings could be gained on any additional throttle bodies produced. In my eyes, a 4-barrel throttle body could be produced at much lower prices than accufab sells theirs for and they're at the cheap end of the spectrum! Take a look at how much Holley wants for the NASCAR bodies!

Napster134

I like the sound of that!... So when can we expect to see mass production of these (for much lower prices than accufab) and available for purchase by thirdgen members? lol

That thing TB looks amazing!