Firebird_dave7

So what can i lose in my 1987 Firebird to get that 3400lbs done to around 2600lbs, most of it in the front end so i can put a 455 and richmond 6-speed and keep the weghit distribution the same or close to it thank you for the help!!!

Dave

blackphoenix

I do not know if it is possible to get your car down that much interesting to see what others say. I thought about putting a 455 in my 87 GTA but since my husband will be the one doing the work pretty much already said NO due to the room. You could start by taking out the A/C & power steering. If you don't need it heard of people taking out the heat too. Might also want to consider taking out back seat & getting racing seats to eliminate some weight. good luck with that.

Firebird_dave7

well yea i think i ght be able too if i take out all the reinforcements on the front end, but yea i really would like a 455 thats streetable and able to be a daily driver, i plan on having a richmond 6-speed mounted to the rear-end

thebandit92

Take a look at the following website,the guy on there has a '83 Trans Am with a 455 and gives some info on installing it,not sure how to get weight down though.

http://webpages.charter.net/ta455/

84redta

iTrader: (34)

you could always go on a diet, that helps a little :-p, just playing...i've heard of lexan windows, the notchback offered by hawks (i think) apparenlty is significantly lighter (though with traction problems i don't know how you would control that), they make fiberglass doors for 2nd gen and 4th gen, so i'm assuming someone out there is playing with the design of 3rd gens. with all this weight reduction and such, you will want to add to the framing with subframe connectors, wonder bar, ect, so with how much weight you'll actually save, in putting in that 455 i could only assume you'll need some extra reinforcement!

other than that bare bone the interior, swap out dash for lighter wieght fiberglass one with light weight custom dash set-up. get rid of all the seats in favor of one or two racing seats, Swap out power windows for manual, get rid of power locks, power mirrors, power antenna (get rid of it all together, get one that goes in the interior if your worried about a stereo), drop audio equipment if your really looking to lose a little weight, you can figure out how to swap in the 91-92 plastic pulldown motor to save 3 lbs i think(prob not worth it) or switch to a stationary latch (not sure of weight there, but no wires going to it will save very little), get rid of the power hatch popper (all of a pound, so your disgretion), lexan windows, fiberglass notchback hatch, get rid of spoiler, one piece fiberglass front end (if made? if not get individual pieces, your choice either way, pin-able hood though to save 5+ pounds in the hinges), t-top roof to hardtop for sure if you getting a 455 (don't have a picture so i don't know if you have t-tops), get rid of all unnecessary wires, probably re-wire your car with wires that you need for basic operation. If you can deal with it not being as aerodynamic you can put your headlights up and take the motors out to save 5 or so pounds, take climate control out completely if you want to lose the most weight, otherwise just get rid of the a/c system and do the basic heater system, light weight shifter assembly,

Other than that don't forget alluminum driveshaft in your powertrain swap, light weight rims, alluminum radiator, aluminum a-arms and front suspension parts, lighterweight pannard (sp) arm in the back with the control arms, and all the bars holding the rear axle in, lighter weight torque arm from tranny to axle, your pushing one heck of a budget at this point and a lot of labor/time...With that 455 your going to want to definally beef up suspension and brakes dramatically, c5 or c6 brake swap probably wouldn't be a bad idea at all on brakes. And for good measure throw the battery in the trunk, lol. All in all good luck!

Like blackphoenix said, can you get a f-body that low in the first place, can somone say that is a reasonable "usable/streetable" weight?

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

There's a thread in the Fabrication forum titled 'Late night quest for 2800lbs' that details a couple members going crazy with weight reduction.

Firebird_dave7

well thank for the help but i have a couple thing i want to keep like my audio and seats but i am trying to find a way to lwer the center of gravity on the car when i put that 455 in so that i can try to hit like 115 down athe turnpike cause right now i can hit like 85 but i wann take some of that dead top heaviness off, and yea i have t-tops and wanna keep those cause im not makin a drag car im makin like a roadracer which i have goal for a while with my car.

But thanks for all the ideas thanks again, and does anyone know how hard it is to make power windows manual quickly?

thanks

Dave

84redta

iTrader: (34)

I just did manuals to power in a matter of 2-3 hours, but if you haven't done it before...you'll have fun trust me :-D...anyways you'll need 8 1/4" rivets...find those first if your serious about doing this to your car.

I don't know how that 455 is going to like those t-tops...or vise versa, it was rumored that GM stopped t-tops on the 350 cause of torque issues or w/e, like i said, your going to need a bit more reinforcement than the stock body, and that framing underneath would give you a little bit of that center of gravity back because your adding weight at the lowest point of the car.

emory 4-4-2

is the 455 all that heavy in the first place? all the pontiac V8s are externally the same, so the big guy can't be that much heavier than even the 326. they say a 500 caddy isn't too much heavier or bigger than a 350 and smaller and lighter than a big block chevy

Firebird_dave7

well ok then that will be pretty cool then, and the pontiac 455 weighs around 700lbs and the small block i have now is around 500lbs, but the Buick 455 weighs like 630lbs so i think i will use th pontiac just to say i have a pontiac in there.

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

Yo try fiberglass everything. Here ya go.

http://www.vfnfiberglass.com/site.htm

Click Catalog, scroll down to Pontiac and click on 82-92 Trans-am & Firebird

They have doors, full front ends, hoods, front rear and gfx bumpers

They have the full body camaro in fiberglass. ONLY WEIGHS 115LBS FULL BODY.

Firebird_dave7

thanks alot for this, post i have been looking for full fiberglass front ends

84redta

iTrader: (34)

what i meant is the massive torque that motor will put out after he's done modifying, as far as body twist and what not, not actual weight, i know that the motor can sit in there just fine, lol.

Firebird_dave7

well i plan on putting subframe connectors on and i plan on puting a crossmember in it and a strut tower brace and i think that should take care of it for now.

TheMutt

you want to lose 30% of the cars weight from the front end alone? sorry, I don't think it's possible. Maybe from the car overall, with a lot of work and money, but not from the front end alone.

Consider that the majority of the weight is the engine, and you're planning to just put a bigger one in.

stick to the basics
-fiberglass and lexan windows
-ditch all accessories and anything not necessary
-relocate battery and radiator to rear

Firebird_dave7

Well im not sayin just from the front end, im tryin to make a street legal road racer that will blow any tuner/wanna be muscle off my local roads i mean its fast already but i wanna be faster!!!

84redta

iTrader: (34)

hows the radiator in the back work!?

TheMutt

I've seen it in track cars before. You could just put a big block in an rx7. It's lighter to begin with.

Firebird_dave7

I know considering it has under body indutcion this aint no muddin truck, or rock crawler.

But gotta beef up the cooling for summertime driving cause its florida here
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Im a Firebird type not *****/patty

84redta

iTrader: (34)

naw i know track cars and what not, i've seen side ducting and i assumed underneath was pulling air as well, but he's talking a streetable car here, so i didn't see a front engine pulling a rear radiator efficiently, either for air flow or for the water pump, you would add weight for how much more fluid you would need i would think!

Firebird_dave7

you would be running alot of fluid in that set-up

naterman35

How much are you willing to spend here?...

If your looking for a car that is streetable and could beat any people in your area... Why don't you Have a 350 put in which is lighter then the 455... And just build your 350. Put in lighter weight headers, Aluminum heads to save weight, A lighter weight radiator, Slap a supercharger on it...

Or build a 383 stroker. make it as light as possible, And supercharge it.

Firebird_dave7

because thats the thing im working with a budget engine build that comes with enough power and torque stock, that i dont have to do alot to.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

and the right to brag about a 455 and 6 speed :-p, something the old SD 455 wish they could be up against :-P

emory 4-4-2

yep, and it's so easy. cam+headers+heads=450 hp

emory 4-4-2

and it's a pontiac in a pontiac

Firebird_dave7

there you go thats what i like to hear, but anyway any help is much need still, i need to now if all i do is strengthen the subframe and body the how low will i need to put the motor an d how far back into the firewall?

i dont know

Any help will help yall thanks

emory 4-4-2

i would say as low and as far back as possible, but i imagine you'll be set up by where the tranny needs to be, unless you're looking for a bunch of work.

TheMutt

losing anything close to 30% body weight, if possible, cant be done "on a budget".

Firebird_dave7

yea ok then do i use poly mounts or solid

82Five-O

I'd go poly, solid mounts will shake and beat your car to death!!

Firebird_dave7

i figured that would be best and the monuts will help woth the torque twist

ntomsheck

iTrader: (1)

If you want to have a daily driver, don't worry too much about weight loss. The 455 is a monster, and behind that 6 speed, it's even quicker. My GTA weighed about 2500... without the engine, trans, drive shaft, radiator, and AC system in it... see where I'm going with this? It would be next to impossible to make your car lose that much weight and be strong enough to hold together with that torque monster. Just focus your time and money on making that engine more powerful.

Firebird_dave7

well thats pretty true but i still wanna put 'er on a diet., maybe not so much but still keep it around stock weight you know 3200-3600lbs

Firebird_dave7

well i took out the heater box/ac equipment and thats outta there now, where should i begin the suspension or chasis strengthening?

subliminal

iTrader: (1)

Take off your fenders, ground effects, and quarter panels you dont need em just extra weight. While your at it rip out all your interior even the seats, just leave the steering column no dash or anything, then bolt in a plastic milk crate to sit on.

84Z28406

I knew someone who was testing out their new car build using an apple crate as a seat... He didnt bolt it down though. Guess what happened on that first hard left turn.

Firebird_dave7

So yall wanna race when im finished or do i just toss you to the curb like i do tuners/trash, or would you rather quit bein f*gg*ts and actually help.

82Five-O

Hey dude, they're just jokin. take it easy. Sheesh!
As far as strengthening, order the subframe connectors from Summit.

Firebird_dave7

well if they wanna joke go somewhere else i got a car to build not a comedy tour, but my bad i did go a lil far

89RsPower!

If your car has ground fx, takem off. You could remove all unessicary things from the interior such as door panels, center console, sail panels, go with a fiberglass dash board, remove the carpet and padding, all sound deadner, manual windows, racing seat or seats, remove the rear seats, front and rear sway bars, replace all glass with lexan including t-tops, fiberglass pin-on hood, lightweight wheels, skinnys in the front, remove all undercoating from bottom of car, remove front and rear bumpers, Probably other things I left out, it is really not pratical at all to try to loose that much weight for a street car. 2,600lbs for a street legal 3rd gen is really a pipe dream.. especially if your adding weight with a heavier engine..

Firebird_dave7

where can i get a fiberglass dash
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well i actually changed my mind i am just goin to strengthen it so it will hold and handle the 455 and richmond and im justgoin to do that
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thanks i think i might make some at school

ntomsheck

iTrader: (1)

Make a custom tubular K-member for the engine. That, with coil overs and tubular A-arms, and I think you'll loose about 80lbs off the front That wont reduce the strength. Although, I don't know how well your strut towers will fare with the added weight (because the force that holds up the front of the car will now be on the sheet metal strut towers, because of the coil overs).

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Why don't you put an LSX motor in this?

Firebird_dave7

well ok a k-member and coil overs and tubed a-arms, sounds good.

Well i dont have the cash for a lsx

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Do you know how much money it's going to cost you to do what you're planning?

1983Fbody

Example: Cobra kit cars start w/ an aluminum chassis @200lbs. add fiberglass body 200lbs. when all is done w/ driveline, wheels/tires/brakes, etc. they end up about 2500lbs. using 80's mustang engine/trans/rearend. The mustang driveline is pretty light compared to a a 9" or 12 bolt rear you'll need for the torque of that 455. The richmond trans probably won't be that far off from the weight of a Tremec 5spd, and the 455 compared to a 302, well I'm sure there is a bit of diff. there. Your heavy thirdgen chassis and proposed driveline is what is keeping you from your goal, not the body.

This is more of a realistic goal. A few things I've picked up on while playing the weight game- Don't compromise safety, a roll cage should be part of your plan. Notchback is way lighter, an 1/8" lexan rear window would be almost as good. Engine setback more than 12" is going to require a big notch out of the windshield or dry sump type oil pan and offsetting pedals to the left, using circle track type of clutch and brake pedals is almost mandatory. Lexan for side/rear glass is fine, don't use it for the front if you plan on actually driving the car. There's a lot of weight in the chassis itself, an aluminum interior kit like the dragster kit from jegs would be a good place to start w/ firewall, floor pans, etc.. Stripping the body down to a shell and having it oven baked will remove up to 200lbs. of seam filler, paint, etc. on a thirdgen. Fiberglass doors w/ pinned lexan windows will drop a ton of weight just don't leave out the x bars in the roll cage. Reinforce your rear shock mounts and install coil overs back there. Up front you won't get much lighter than a one piece 'glass frontend, tube crossmember, and aluminum heads without redesigning the stock suspension. Race seats and fiberglass dash, removal of stock wiring harness, etc.

Start with mods which your budget allows, some things will be easier to do later on like adding light weight wheels, driveshaft, etc. Look at modifying the chassis as much as you can within your budget and time now because you won't feel like taking the dash out once the rollcage is in, won't enjoy swapping cylinder heads once the engine is in, exhaust routing, etc. A little bit of planning at this stage will save a lot of time later.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

I still say your best bet is to either drop in a 6L iron block LSx or a bigger cube small block.

1983Fbody

That richmond 6speed is worth about what a used LS/trans combo would cost. If weight was the priority, I think he's going more for the factor of the 455! I've also heard those pontiac engines can make more torque at idle than most sbc at WFO.

edit- If you're worried about weight distribution a dana 60 might help even things out. lol

Firebird_dave7

alright thanks for the info.
But if i take my 500lbs 305 engine and put a 630lbs 455 it isnt to bigg a difference, and i can make up for it by positioning and structuring, but isnt a 700r4 the same weight as a richmond 6 speed or close to it?