Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
09-17-2007, 08:32 AM
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Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Now that Ive managed to meander my way through the TBI PCM, Ive been looking at whats next. From what Ive seen from the tables posted on the 'net for the LS1 stuff, the transmission code in the PCM is close to whats in the OBD-II PCMs. Or, at least it served as a base for them. Id also guess that the vortec truck PCM would probably be the best place to start as its an earlier computer and it would give a good intro to the 32-bit PCMs. It would also have the code typical for what would be needed to do SFI. My guess would be that it would be similar to the injector firing interrupt scheduling and cam sensor handling in the TBI PCM, but alot more complicated.
The main problems I see is that first theres little to nothing known about the hardware in these. From my experience, once you have the hardware mapped out, anything can be figured out in the software. Without the hardware map, forget it, your going nowhere fast. The other issue is how to reverse the code. Are there decompilers? Disassemblers? I have a 600(!) page PDF on teh instruction set for the M68XXX MPUs, but it doesnt give the corresponding machine code nor the structure. Are there any manuals available for these that detail the general hardware within the processor?
Its time to take that first step, but if someone else already has, I have no problems with sponging their work.
The main problems I see is that first theres little to nothing known about the hardware in these. From my experience, once you have the hardware mapped out, anything can be figured out in the software. Without the hardware map, forget it, your going nowhere fast. The other issue is how to reverse the code. Are there decompilers? Disassemblers? I have a 600(!) page PDF on teh instruction set for the M68XXX MPUs, but it doesnt give the corresponding machine code nor the structure. Are there any manuals available for these that detail the general hardware within the processor?
Its time to take that first step, but if someone else already has, I have no problems with sponging their work.
09-17-2007, 06:12 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
1st things first... I really don't know anything about it
but maybe check this thread in the TPI forum:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...-opinions.html
I have not read it but someday im planning on it once i feel ready. I talked to a guy at a car show that uses the PCM from an astro van if i remember right, the needed sensors and whatnot, and has his minirammed 1st gen smallblock running with OBDII. he said its like night and day. he strongly suggested it, and one day Id love to drop that aluminum block LS1 in the camaro, but this might be a great step between now and then.
its worth a peek for ya, or maybe your alraedy aware of it?
but maybe check this thread in the TPI forum:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...-opinions.html
I have not read it but someday im planning on it once i feel ready. I talked to a guy at a car show that uses the PCM from an astro van if i remember right, the needed sensors and whatnot, and has his minirammed 1st gen smallblock running with OBDII. he said its like night and day. he strongly suggested it, and one day Id love to drop that aluminum block LS1 in the camaro, but this might be a great step between now and then.
its worth a peek for ya, or maybe your alraedy aware of it?
09-18-2007, 12:41 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
What dimented24x7 is looking for (if I understand him right), is a group of people that are willing to help "disassemble" and "document" the OBD-II PCMs, similar to what was done in the old days on www.diy-efi.org.
Regretably, some have passed away and others recall how some did a lot of work only to have some others take the info and develop a "company" to profit from all the work while leaving the others with nothing.
Dimented (Adam), unfortunately, the processors used are far more complicated than those cracked before. As you said, just the documentation for the instruction set is well over 600 pages (plus with many new and complicated instructions to boot.
Lastly, based on the past experiences (and bad tastes in some people's mouths), I doubt many are willing to devote the extreme amount of hours required - only to have some jerk scoop the hard work for their own financial gain.
OR have a bunch of "leaches" who just sit on the sidelines waiting for free access to all the hard work devoted by others - and complain when it a bug is found or when they start expecting it to perform like some "very expensive" competitor's software.
Sometimes, it gets bad enough just being a moderator and having to deal with people's complaints that "they are not getting prompt enough service", as if we were being paid big bucks to do this.
Regretably, some have passed away and others recall how some did a lot of work only to have some others take the info and develop a "company" to profit from all the work while leaving the others with nothing.
Dimented (Adam), unfortunately, the processors used are far more complicated than those cracked before. As you said, just the documentation for the instruction set is well over 600 pages (plus with many new and complicated instructions to boot.
Lastly, based on the past experiences (and bad tastes in some people's mouths), I doubt many are willing to devote the extreme amount of hours required - only to have some jerk scoop the hard work for their own financial gain.
OR have a bunch of "leaches" who just sit on the sidelines waiting for free access to all the hard work devoted by others - and complain when it a bug is found or when they start expecting it to perform like some "very expensive" competitor's software.
Sometimes, it gets bad enough just being a moderator and having to deal with people's complaints that "they are not getting prompt enough service", as if we were being paid big bucks to do this.
09-18-2007, 08:51 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
It would be nice to have a group to work with, but to this point, Ive been flying solo on the software side.
One nice thing that Ive been banking on is the legacy built into GMs systems. This at least should give a general idea of where I am in the new code by looking back at the previous computers. Looking at the tables posted on the LS1 tuning sites, even the TBI PCM posses some of the engine tables and ALL the transmission tables that have been shown. On the flip side, the LS1 tuning packages only have about 15% of the tables in the TBI PCM defined. Thats a scary thought that those guys are only seeing 15% of whats actually in the old crusty PCM that I reversed. God only knows what theyre really missing. And they wonder why the cars don't always do what they think they should.
Glenn, your right, I do hate the thought of someone else using my work, but at the same time paralysis isn't going to help, either. People still have their heads up their asses with the new stuff, and its a lot harder to tune when the PCM is a black box rather then a system your familiar with. I easily saved time in the long run by going through the PCM first and then tuning the motor. While it took months to reverse it, it took just a weekend or two to get most of the tune done because I'm not wasting time guessing.
Even at the risk of others using my work, Id still like to plow forward so I can have the ability to confidently tune the newer PCMs. Hopefully, by releasing information along the way, I can drag a few more people in to help get it done. If we can get all the info out there, then theres at least less motivation for profit as people can go and just download it for free rather then pay joe blow $800 dollars for his package.
One nice thing that Ive been banking on is the legacy built into GMs systems. This at least should give a general idea of where I am in the new code by looking back at the previous computers. Looking at the tables posted on the LS1 tuning sites, even the TBI PCM posses some of the engine tables and ALL the transmission tables that have been shown. On the flip side, the LS1 tuning packages only have about 15% of the tables in the TBI PCM defined. Thats a scary thought that those guys are only seeing 15% of whats actually in the old crusty PCM that I reversed. God only knows what theyre really missing. And they wonder why the cars don't always do what they think they should.
Glenn, your right, I do hate the thought of someone else using my work, but at the same time paralysis isn't going to help, either. People still have their heads up their asses with the new stuff, and its a lot harder to tune when the PCM is a black box rather then a system your familiar with. I easily saved time in the long run by going through the PCM first and then tuning the motor. While it took months to reverse it, it took just a weekend or two to get most of the tune done because I'm not wasting time guessing.
Even at the risk of others using my work, Id still like to plow forward so I can have the ability to confidently tune the newer PCMs. Hopefully, by releasing information along the way, I can drag a few more people in to help get it done. If we can get all the info out there, then theres at least less motivation for profit as people can go and just download it for free rather then pay joe blow $800 dollars for his package.
09-18-2007, 11:54 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Ive been reading the "Source Code" thread saved in the guide book that Grumpy started back in 2001. Ive read some links explaining the microprocessor that Grim posted, but its a lot of reading and while i enjoy it, I dotn get a lot of time for it. I feel like once i understand the ins, outs, aboves, belows, of the 165 ECM, ill be better suited for the newer ECMs.
Like somebody in that source code thread said after there was not much response to Grumpy's initial statement, your idea is being thrown out there in this thread and sooner or later somebody will fit in and help you.
I would love to work with people to figure out something new, but for now im still catching up with that has already been known by you guys for years.
So Im sure there are more people like me, with the interest but not the ability, yet. But im also sure that there are people youll come across who will be able to help you
Like somebody in that source code thread said after there was not much response to Grumpy's initial statement, your idea is being thrown out there in this thread and sooner or later somebody will fit in and help you.
I would love to work with people to figure out something new, but for now im still catching up with that has already been known by you guys for years.
So Im sure there are more people like me, with the interest but not the ability, yet. But im also sure that there are people youll come across who will be able to help you
09-18-2007, 12:29 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
People who are afraid/mad at others for using their information for profit sound like a bunch of sour grapes to me. Its just a fact of life that others will use whatever information they come across to their benefit, regardless of why that information may be available. If they wanted in on some of the $$$ they should have sold the information instead of sharing it for free. I've shared some of my software that I wrote for work at home with a couple companies, and I'm sure more have it in use as well. I dont have any sour grape feelings that people are making more money by utilizing my time saving software. The only way man was able to get out of caves and build fires and move on to where we are now with cars, electronics, space travel, etc is by sharing information. If everything was a personal secret, we'd get nowhere. I dont hide my personal knowledge of riding a bike from the 4 year old at home so he can learn more important things rather than reinventing the wheel. Sure you need a base of knowledge to start with, but treading over old territory seems pointless to me.
If I had the time, I'd be willing to help but I just dont have enough time to invest to make it worth your while. Way too much other stuff I need to do, I'm already behind on oil changes and putting air in tires let alone decoding GM's cipher.
If I had the time, I'd be willing to help but I just dont have enough time to invest to make it worth your while. Way too much other stuff I need to do, I'm already behind on oil changes and putting air in tires let alone decoding GM's cipher.
02-02-2008, 11:55 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Well, for better or worse, Ive started work two weeks ago with the 98 vortec PCM code. I located the OBD-II serial datalink controller and traced it to get the address in the code. From there I managed to locate the Rx/Tx routines and buffers, and finally the OBD-II PIDs (basic scantool data), so Im in through the side door. Should be interesting to see what they put in these things...
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02-03-2008, 09:56 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Well, for better or worse, Ive started work two weeks ago with the 98 vortec PCM code. I located the OBD-II serial datalink controller and traced it to get the address in the code. From there I managed to locate the Rx/Tx routines and buffers, and finally the OBD-II PIDs (basic scantool data), so Im in through the side door. Should be interesting to see what they put in these things...
I have no education in electronics.
I am one of those guys that benefit from the guys on this forum like you and others all the other really sharp guys that figure out what to do.
I then try to make what's been posted and put it to work for myself and then share what I've learned with anyone else I can.
For better or worse, I've always tried to build on what someone else has the goodness in their heart to share with me, and then try to make it better, and then share that with others.
I can't help you with de-coding, but if you would like to have one of the 0411 Express PCM's, with connectors, I'd be willing to donate an extra I have to get you started.
If you need any tables printed out or something like that on your PCM or the 0411, I have Tunercat II, and would be more than glad to do that.
Maybe that would be a start in the right direction for me.
Just let me know.
Ron
02-03-2008, 12:20 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Actually, I went with the previous generation of computers used in the 98/99 trucks. Main reason is that on diy-efi.org, everything needed to get started was posted there, including the datasheet for the moto VPW datalink controller, which is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Without it, there would be no way to interpret the recieving/transmitting routines, and no way to find the diagnostic scantool parameters. I thought of starting with the '411, but I wasnt sure what the differences would be.
02-03-2008, 01:03 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Actually, I went with the previous generation of computers used in the 98/99 trucks. Main reason is that on diy-efi.org, everything needed to get started was posted there, including the datasheet for the moto VPW datalink controller, which is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Without it, there would be no way to interpret the recieving/transmitting routines, and no way to find the diagnostic scantool parameters. I thought of starting with the '411, but I wasnt sure what the differences would be.
Ron
02-04-2008, 09:52 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
This may sound very elementary as I am just getting into tuning, but why is all this work necessary? I know of plenty of guys who are running some real hot motors with the OBD2 Truck PCMs, and they didn't try and disassemble or map out everything the PCM does. They just built the motor, hooked it up to to TunerCats, tuned it, and proceeded to burn rubber.
With that said, are you saying that there is more power to be had by figuring out everything the PCM does, even more so then just hooking up a labtop and using the appropriate software to tune the vehicle properly?
Please don't think I am ranting. I am not. I envy you for the fact you have the ability to map out the PCM. I guess this intimidates me because I am more of a mechanical guy and from the topics you guys discuss, it makes me wonder if I will still have hidden power even after I have what I think is the proper tune from using the available software and hardware.
With that said, are you saying that there is more power to be had by figuring out everything the PCM does, even more so then just hooking up a labtop and using the appropriate software to tune the vehicle properly?
Please don't think I am ranting. I am not. I envy you for the fact you have the ability to map out the PCM. I guess this intimidates me because I am more of a mechanical guy and from the topics you guys discuss, it makes me wonder if I will still have hidden power even after I have what I think is the proper tune from using the available software and hardware.
02-04-2008, 11:02 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
This may sound very elementary as I am just getting into tuning, but why is all this work necessary? I know of plenty of guys who are running some real hot motors with the OBD2 Truck PCMs, and they didn't try and disassemble or map out everything the PCM does. They just built the motor, hooked it up to to TunerCats, tuned it, and proceeded to burn rubber.
With that said, are you saying that there is more power to be had by figuring out everything the PCM does, even more so then just hooking up a labtop and using the appropriate software to tune the vehicle properly?
Please don't think I am ranting. I am not. I envy you for the fact you have the ability to map out the PCM. I guess this intimidates me because I am more of a mechanical guy and from the topics you guys discuss, it makes me wonder if I will still have hidden power even after I have what I think is the proper tune from using the available software and hardware.
With that said, are you saying that there is more power to be had by figuring out everything the PCM does, even more so then just hooking up a labtop and using the appropriate software to tune the vehicle properly?
Please don't think I am ranting. I am not. I envy you for the fact you have the ability to map out the PCM. I guess this intimidates me because I am more of a mechanical guy and from the topics you guys discuss, it makes me wonder if I will still have hidden power even after I have what I think is the proper tune from using the available software and hardware.
02-04-2008, 01:07 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
If you want an OEM level of driveability, mapping out the ECM/PCM so that ALL the variables are in sight is a real help. The tuning software on the LS1 setups that I have seen don't even have everything that is mapped out in the old, slow 7747 TBI ecm or the 165 TPI ecm. Some of the stuff maybe close enough to leave as is in most situations, but there are times when the car refuses to do what someone wants.
02-04-2008, 06:04 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Makes sense to me, because the first copy of a def for tunerpro I got is way more primative than the latested I got for the aujp ver 4.
You guys keep finding things to tweek.
You guys keep finding things to tweek.
08-26-2008, 11:20 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Update:
Still working on reversing the 98 vortec code. Funny that last winter I thought that I would have this done before the summer. That was a bit of a dream. They really put a lot of stuff in these PCMs. But, Im finally getting to a point where an end is in sight. I haven't touched any of the e-trans stuff outside of whats used in the engine routines, but Ive gotten a good deal done on the engine management code. Outside of the SFI, these PCMs do have a lot of neat features. One thing I really dig is the fact that the idle control is now done entirely through the engine RPMs, and from an idle stand point, the engine can still be idling when the car is in motion, which will be handy with a stick.
One thing I still have to figure out is how to scan/datalog. The base SAE mandated OBD-II live data sucks in these. Its basically just the MAF, map, cool temp, O2 volts, etc. GM pretty much keeps anything not mandated by SAE as enhanced scantool data that can only be accessed with a tech 2 scanner, probably so people wont be able to reverse engineer the PCMs easily. Obviously now that the computer is mostly reversed, I can deduce whats in the enhanced scantool data, but I dont think there are any customizable OBD-II scan packages out there that are like tunerpro/scanner pro.
Still working on reversing the 98 vortec code. Funny that last winter I thought that I would have this done before the summer. That was a bit of a dream. They really put a lot of stuff in these PCMs. But, Im finally getting to a point where an end is in sight. I haven't touched any of the e-trans stuff outside of whats used in the engine routines, but Ive gotten a good deal done on the engine management code. Outside of the SFI, these PCMs do have a lot of neat features. One thing I really dig is the fact that the idle control is now done entirely through the engine RPMs, and from an idle stand point, the engine can still be idling when the car is in motion, which will be handy with a stick.
One thing I still have to figure out is how to scan/datalog. The base SAE mandated OBD-II live data sucks in these. Its basically just the MAF, map, cool temp, O2 volts, etc. GM pretty much keeps anything not mandated by SAE as enhanced scantool data that can only be accessed with a tech 2 scanner, probably so people wont be able to reverse engineer the PCMs easily. Obviously now that the computer is mostly reversed, I can deduce whats in the enhanced scantool data, but I dont think there are any customizable OBD-II scan packages out there that are like tunerpro/scanner pro.
08-27-2008, 12:29 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
i doubt it's customizable, but maybe mxscan can work for you, it seems cheap enough, though there is alot of fuzziness around the whole tunercat/jet/mondax/mxscan stuff. By fuzziness, I mean that there isn't much info out there, and just bits and pieces. I wish TC could have kept up with the ODBII stuff.
08-27-2008, 05:02 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
i doubt it's customizable, but maybe mxscan can work for you, it seems cheap enough, though there is alot of fuzziness around the whole tunercat/jet/mondax/mxscan stuff. By fuzziness, I mean that there isn't much info out there, and just bits and pieces. I wish TC could have kept up with the ODBII stuff.
I have mxscan, but have not used it yet because I can't seem to get enough time to finish my 41 pickup/OBDII setup. The product is a couple years old now I think, and he's never updated it as promised when it was released. Some guys on TCII message board have big problems with it, and others seem to be able to use it.
It'd be great for somebody to take that over and make it usable and versatile.
09-15-2008, 07:28 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I've been looking into what's needed to reflash the PCM. On HPTuners, there is some info on what is sent to and from the PCM during a reflash. It looks like there is a mode 36 where the scantool can enter block transfer mode and transfer data into the PCMs. From what I gather, the program that actually does the reflashing is loaded into the RAM, and control is transferred over to that routine. I found the lead in for the routine that allows for the block transfer in the 98 code Im working with in the boot sector. I would assume that this only exists in the boot sector as its the only place where a reference to the 4x VPW transfer mode exists. Since the 4x can generate interrupts at about 5 kHz, I would assume that this couldn't be run in the main engine loop, even with the motor off. One big question is what is needed to keep the PCM in the boot sector if the block transfer code only exists there? Its hard to see if there is anything that needs to be done to hold the PCM in boot-up mode for the reflash. Another issue is cables. I haven't seen any prefab stand-alone open source ones that can do the 4x VPW mode. Of course, there is the issue of the software on the PC as well.
09-15-2008, 07:50 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Another thing thats got me wondering is what has to happen on the hardware side for a reflash. The Vpp on the flash chip is actually tied to the Vss on the MPU (grounded), but not directly. Instead there is a 6 kOhm resistor linking the pin to the Vss on the MPU. Ahead of the resistor, there is a trace and a via thats tied directly to the Vpp pin. Makes me wonder if an external voltage is needed to initiate a reflash.
09-15-2008, 09:44 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Maybe you could try to hack a hypertech or similar handheld "programmer". they cant be that complex compared to the PCM.
You could use it to either figure out the communications, or use it as a programmer to upload your own code changes.
You could use it to either figure out the communications, or use it as a programmer to upload your own code changes.
09-15-2008, 12:38 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Im a little leery of reversing anything that could infringe on a copyright or a patent. Id like to try to use only whats in the PCM and been made publicly available. I think theres probably enough info available to figure it out, just have to put the pieces together.
Another thought I had is if the moto OBD datalink IC could be modded to work at a different baud rate, which would open up the possibility of using a standard RS-232 serial port. The chip has its own oscillator. Dont know what effect it might have on the intercommunications between the MCU and IC, though.
I think it could also be done with a standard OBD cable at 1x, but that could take a LONG time. Maybe 10 minutes or so for the whole 512K chip.
Another thought I had is if the moto OBD datalink IC could be modded to work at a different baud rate, which would open up the possibility of using a standard RS-232 serial port. The chip has its own oscillator. Dont know what effect it might have on the intercommunications between the MCU and IC, though.
I think it could also be done with a standard OBD cable at 1x, but that could take a LONG time. Maybe 10 minutes or so for the whole 512K chip.
09-15-2008, 01:12 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
you could still use the programmer for the front end, most of that stuff is off the shelf obd2 'standard' stuff. the patent/copyright stuff comes from the actual code changes within or any processing occurring post translation.
I sent you a PM earlier, BTW.....
I sent you a PM earlier, BTW.....
09-15-2008, 01:26 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
PM sent...
Forgive my ignorance, but how does the hypertech work? Is it basically a handheld that allows for pushbutton 'out of the box' mods, or is it a package that can be used with a laptop?
Forgive my ignorance, but how does the hypertech work? Is it basically a handheld that allows for pushbutton 'out of the box' mods, or is it a package that can be used with a laptop?
09-15-2008, 06:47 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
initially, I thought it was just a copy and replace handheld unit, where they copy out the original calibration, then dump in their own. I took a closer look at the instructions, and it appears to allow you to change certain limited functions, like fan temp, or similar. simple, probably constants. so it probably does a little bit of both.
it's got an LCD screen, and i think a 5 key keypad (haven't looked at it in awhile).
it's got an LCD screen, and i think a 5 key keypad (haven't looked at it in awhile).
09-16-2008, 02:42 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
okay, here is what I once did on a 99-2000 firebird once.
1. we had an extra PCM, which I soldered on a socket in place of the flash chip and cut a hole in the computer case.
2. burn a flash chip with a copy of the original chip.
3. connect the hypertech programmer, and change one parameter.
4. remove flash chip from socket, and read in burner, with note made of what the change was.
5. re-install flash chip in socket and repeat process until all hypertech programming options are recorded.
so thats how we figured out what all a hypertech can do, and where the changes are made. Now if you opened up the hypertech and found where the memory is stored you may be able to either interface with it or socket the memory chip and use it as a programmer for YOUR own code.
other than identifying pcm table locations the hypertech didnt yield and real info, besides the fact that their tuning sucks hard! when we did find the tables we noticed that the hypertech tuned tables were really rough and spiky!
1. we had an extra PCM, which I soldered on a socket in place of the flash chip and cut a hole in the computer case.
2. burn a flash chip with a copy of the original chip.
3. connect the hypertech programmer, and change one parameter.
4. remove flash chip from socket, and read in burner, with note made of what the change was.
5. re-install flash chip in socket and repeat process until all hypertech programming options are recorded.
so thats how we figured out what all a hypertech can do, and where the changes are made. Now if you opened up the hypertech and found where the memory is stored you may be able to either interface with it or socket the memory chip and use it as a programmer for YOUR own code.
other than identifying pcm table locations the hypertech didnt yield and real info, besides the fact that their tuning sucks hard! when we did find the tables we noticed that the hypertech tuned tables were really rough and spiky!
Last edited by The_Punisher454; 09-16-2008 at 02:45 AM.
09-16-2008, 07:43 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
The thought crossed my mind to see if one of the aftermarket tuners could be used to program a PCM. One thing is, it could be as hard or harder to reverse than the PCM. I saw some talk of using an autotap cable to upload/download the flash. I wonder what chip they use in it?
I did find the block transfer routine last night that allows you to transfer to the PCMs RAM. I would also assume that there is a portion that allows the processor to transfer execution to the code in the RAM once you transmit the lead-in address. Once you can do that, you basically can do whatever you want with the PCM, including DL'ing the flash and reflashing via the OBD-II.
I did find the block transfer routine last night that allows you to transfer to the PCMs RAM. I would also assume that there is a portion that allows the processor to transfer execution to the code in the RAM once you transmit the lead-in address. Once you can do that, you basically can do whatever you want with the PCM, including DL'ing the flash and reflashing via the OBD-II.
09-16-2008, 08:40 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I don't think that there is a great need to reverse engineer the code in the newer PCM's because they can handle and do pretty much everything that is needed and it is already there. For instance you can run MAP, MAF, or both. It has support for power adders so you can put in a turbo or a supercharger no problem. The cold start and idle code is light years ahead of the old stuff so programming a big cam has become very easy. Take a look at some of the threads of the guys running Gen I motors with a 411 they are not going back. Basically from what I can see is the core code is being used for all the cars regardless of the motor/trans combo. The real issue is that all the programmers tie down there programs to the VIN so you have to buy a license for each VIN with the exception of one which is Tunercat. The only way to get TC now is to get a roadrunner system from Moates or buy a used one like me since he sold out to Jet. If you try to go 05 or newer you are stuck with HPT or EFILive for the most part due to it being the CAN system. We have not heard from TC as to the support of those systems but he may in the future.
09-16-2008, 09:01 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
the reason he is doing this is becuase most of those vin locked packages only cater to a small area of calibration. He is interested in looking at the whole thing (which is quite the task). I'm also guessing he doesn't want to spend the $400 or more necessary to just get that barebones vin locked software.
Adam, check that PM I sent, that ELM part looks like it might work as a way to communicate back and forth.otherwise, I'll get that programmer out to you this week.
Adam, check that PM I sent, that ELM part looks like it might work as a way to communicate back and forth.otherwise, I'll get that programmer out to you this week.
09-16-2008, 12:43 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
69,
Youd be amazed at how much stuff they put in these things. The idle routines correct for just about everything imaginable, from low battery volts to lean LTFT's. They even have a PID spark control routine to control the idle speed and rate of change. Most of which isn't covered in the tuning packages. The MAF also has entire dynamic blending tables to determine which ratio of MAF cylinder airmass to MAP cylinder airmass is used. Again, not covered in the tuning package. My concern is that if something is off, I may not be able to fix it with only some of the stuff defined. It would be nice to have a prepackaged solution with everything defined. Id pay 400-600 if they had a reasonable level of depth in the definition.
Also, knowing how the computer works makes tuning much faster as you know what to look for when something isnt cooperating. It definately takes time to map these out, especially with only a few hours a week to work on it, but in the end, it makes tuning a lot easier. Im not a big fan of black boxes, and Im not just referring to the grody black paint they put on these things.
Joe,
Im going to check that out.
Hopefully if we get one of these PCMs mapped out, it'll open the way for freeware tuning packages like we have for the earlier ECMs. Would be nice to have a tunerpro like free or low cost package for interfacing with the OBD-II PCMs and reflashing. Right now, the reflashing is one of the last legs of the journey for me. After this, I can finally start putting the car together.
Youd be amazed at how much stuff they put in these things.
The idle routines correct for just about everything imaginable, from low battery volts to lean LTFT's. They even have a PID spark control routine to control the idle speed and rate of change. Most of which isn't covered in the tuning packages. The MAF also has entire dynamic blending tables to determine which ratio of MAF cylinder airmass to MAP cylinder airmass is used. Again, not covered in the tuning package. My concern is that if something is off, I may not be able to fix it with only some of the stuff defined. It would be nice to have a prepackaged solution with everything defined. Id pay 400-600 if they had a reasonable level of depth in the definition.Also, knowing how the computer works makes tuning much faster as you know what to look for when something isnt cooperating. It definately takes time to map these out, especially with only a few hours a week to work on it, but in the end, it makes tuning a lot easier. Im not a big fan of black boxes, and Im not just referring to the grody black paint they put on these things.
Joe,
Im going to check that out.
Hopefully if we get one of these PCMs mapped out, it'll open the way for freeware tuning packages like we have for the earlier ECMs. Would be nice to have a tunerpro like free or low cost package for interfacing with the OBD-II PCMs and reflashing. Right now, the reflashing is one of the last legs of the journey for me. After this, I can finally start putting the car together.
Last edited by dimented24x7; 09-16-2008 at 12:53 PM.
09-16-2008, 01:50 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I am all for freeware. In fact the OBDII interface and now the CAN interface is the real issue to freeware. My point is that in the past we needed everything to understand how to fix problems encountered with mods that we all do to our engines. Now the code coming out takes care of the need not to have to do that. For instance if you go to LS1tech you will see guys with monster cams running in their daily drivers. They can edit the existing code and have a good running car. They don't need to know all the details nor do they need to code for problems because it is already there with just a few changes. Take your idle example as case in point. Most people are not trying to reinvent the wheel. It would almost seem that if you could create a board that replaces the permanent flash with say just a plugin flash and you could eliminate the OBDII interface cable all together. Now you may have something.
09-16-2008, 02:26 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
yeah, I've been wondering about that, how these guys are running these nasty cams and getting the ecms to work efficiently. is the code that advanced that it can learn the ae and all of the closed loop stuff that the old ecm's struggled with? are these tuner guys messing with anything other than an afr or ve table to get these things to run? is reversion screwing up the MAF's?
so you are saying that boost code is already implemented? say I had a 2000LS1 and put turbochargers on it. would the '411 ecm just have to have a 2 or 3 bar map hooked up and a few flags changed to enable boost code? that is very interesting, if so.....
so you are saying that boost code is already implemented? say I had a 2000LS1 and put turbochargers on it. would the '411 ecm just have to have a 2 or 3 bar map hooked up and a few flags changed to enable boost code? that is very interesting, if so.....
09-16-2008, 03:26 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
While the PCMs are sophisticated, for the most part, they are not self tuning, so calibrating is needed. Pretty much everything in the PCM is dependant on the calibration, which will likely need to be adjusted to match each engine configuration, especially if you deviate a lot from stock. I will be running a carb motor + tight LSA cam with a carb intake with injector bungs. A far cry from a stock vortec. I wouldnt be surprised if the 75% of the engine stuff I have defined now isnt enough.
I also thought of using a socketed flash, but its a hassle to remove it, reflash, reinstall, restart, etc. That, and the PCM is no longer weather proof and is exposed to possible contamination and static discharge. The OBD-II is a self contained solution that requires no mods to the PCM.
I also thought of using a socketed flash, but its a hassle to remove it, reflash, reinstall, restart, etc. That, and the PCM is no longer weather proof and is exposed to possible contamination and static discharge. The OBD-II is a self contained solution that requires no mods to the PCM.
09-16-2008, 03:54 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
The first thing I would do is to take a look at some of the threads of the guys running a 411 computer on a Gen I motor. It has solved a number of issues just with the new setup. Next look at what S10wildside is doing with individual coil gen 1 motors. He is saying that he is getting a lot more performance out of the newer setups. Yes you still have to tune for the motor but it is not nearly as hard as before. I was headed that direction until a LS1 motor fell out of the sky and hit me on the head.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...olled-gen.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...olled-gen.html
09-16-2008, 09:10 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I took a look at the ELM interface. Pretty cool. The only potential issue is taht it doesnt do (or immediatly appear to do) 4X VPW. Depending on how the block transfer works, this may or may not be an issue. If you can transfer LARGE blocks of data at a time, then the 10.4 kbps might not be as much of an issue, especially if you store the program to reflash the PCM on an empty portion of the flash itself thats not normally used or reflashed. You could simply just transmit a short routine to load the program from the flash chip into the RAM and transfer control.
But, perhapse the 332 can be made to do the 4X mode with additional software. Who knows.
But, perhapse the 332 can be made to do the 4X mode with additional software. Who knows.
09-17-2008, 11:07 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I commend all of you on this mission. And it seems obvious to me that this board and the people on it is the best one for undertaking this task. I would recommend using a '99 PCM or newer because there were some changes between the '98s and the '99s. You guys are awesome.
My little tidbit here: In tuning (not code busting) my '87 IROCZ with Tunercat, and my '99 SS with LS1Edit, I have come to realize how much more complicated the OBDII PCMs are. The shear number of editable tables in the OBDII PCM is mind boggleing (sp?). I think that decoding the OBDI ECM was fruitful wrt fixing some issues that could not be done with Tunercat and other tuners. I am wondering where this decoding of the OBDII PCMs is going to lead. Its quite a challenge!
EDIT:
BTW, the best board for tuning OBDII F-bodies seems to be www.LS1Tech.com, however, I dont think that anyone there is attempting to decode the PCM.
My little tidbit here: In tuning (not code busting) my '87 IROCZ with Tunercat, and my '99 SS with LS1Edit, I have come to realize how much more complicated the OBDII PCMs are. The shear number of editable tables in the OBDII PCM is mind boggleing (sp?). I think that decoding the OBDI ECM was fruitful wrt fixing some issues that could not be done with Tunercat and other tuners. I am wondering where this decoding of the OBDII PCMs is going to lead. Its quite a challenge!
EDIT:
BTW, the best board for tuning OBDII F-bodies seems to be www.LS1Tech.com, however, I dont think that anyone there is attempting to decode the PCM.
Last edited by doc; 09-17-2008 at 11:11 AM.
09-17-2008, 12:52 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Another good board is HP Tuners. In the archives there are a lot of the original posts early on when the package was in development and the original developers where asking questions/posting info on the OBD-II systems in general. Great info there. Even though they used it for profit, at least they left it up for all to see.
09-17-2008, 01:00 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I am about ready to purchase HPTuner myself.
09-25-2008, 11:40 AM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
I found a few more interesting things out about these. From the code, to gain access to the routines to upload/download, or just do anything besides the usual scantool data, you need to gain access through the datalink security routine, which requires you to generate a key from a seed sent from the PCM. The seed and key are stored on a serial eeprom, which I dont have access to. But, socketing the PCM will allow you to either dump the key through the VPW DTC, or just overwrite the security routine with a patch to allow immediate access with a dummy key like 12345. I would also assume that each PCM comes with its own unique key, which would either require crack the code used to generate the key from the seed, or just socket the PCM and bypass it. I did find out that the PP-II will reprogram these flash chips, so socketing is probably the easiest way. Either that, or guess, but the PCM imposes a time delay and additional time penalties for incorrect guesses (you only get two chances from whats in the code). With 65536 possible keys and around 20-30 seconds a guess, it could be 400 hours before a correct key is found.
09-25-2008, 12:24 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
very interesting. I wonder how the aftermarket tuner packages get around this........
09-25-2008, 03:34 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
From what Ive seen, it looks like there was a lot of work early on on HP Tuners to figure it out. On the later LS1 PCMs, the seed/keys are right on the flash, so getting a lot of seed and key pairs to figure out the basis of the encoding is probably easier. On the older PCMs its probably more difficult, unless there is simply a static key assigned to a certain year or model PCM that can be broadly applied to each specific tuning package.
09-26-2008, 12:25 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Probably some sort of LFSR which would take a long time to figure out the number of taps, location, and number of shifts.
It is interesting that they started to think along these lines though.
Actually, the 400 hrs is pretty fast. Using 10 PCMs you could figure it out in less than 2 days at worse. Probably 1 day on average. With that info you could collect data and figure out the algorithm.
It is interesting that they started to think along these lines though.
Actually, the 400 hrs is pretty fast. Using 10 PCMs you could figure it out in less than 2 days at worse. Probably 1 day on average. With that info you could collect data and figure out the algorithm.
Last edited by junkcltr; 09-26-2008 at 12:28 PM.
09-26-2008, 01:13 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Well guys I am in the LS1 world now and I happened to get lucky to get a Tuncercat OBDII setup from a buddy that bought it less than a month before TC stopped selling it to the open market. It is true he does not support the CAN interface but it appears the the OBDII interface cable works for all the future interfaces on the other options in the marketplace -HP and EFILive. TC's usual mode of operation is all of a sudden it is there meaning he may support the CAN interface but we will not know when. I know that the licenses appear to all be Vin locked execpt of course TC's. This tells me that either the software is locking it to either some sort of flash in the software or the cable itself since there is a black box interface between the laptop and the PCM itself. Another avenue that could be explored is to try to get Moates involved but I suspect he has agreements between TC and EFI. Either way his interface board could be a good avenue to explore to see how he does his RT tuning. If he can bypass it then someone else can also. BTW TC released a OBDII file definition editor. Sound familiar? Again hack the interface to communcate to the PCM and I would suspect that something like Tunerpro would probably work or something very similiar to build tables.
I'm all for the code being hacked completely but again I think that it is not needed. There are comments some of the coding used. My take on it is GM took all their knowledge and focused on problem areas along with using standard blocks of code regardless of what engine they were going to use it on and just did a plug and play even though some of it may not be utilized. I would disagree on some comments about the ability of the software to learn. It appears they did some engineering to allow the software to learn in certain areas but to also follow the basic parameters. Case in point there are timing tables, hi octane and low octane -looks like paramteters to me to make the software to follow high and low points but it will blend the actual timing tables to run inbetween these. The idle routine needs about half an hour to learn say on cam changes then the car will idle pretty well. It looks to me that they incorporated some fancy autocontrol routines to allow that to happen. I think the code in the past had problems where the code could easily go unstable if you were off by a bit where today get the parameters right and the code will iterate without going unstable because the routines are so much better than in the past.
I'm all for the code being hacked completely but again I think that it is not needed. There are comments some of the coding used. My take on it is GM took all their knowledge and focused on problem areas along with using standard blocks of code regardless of what engine they were going to use it on and just did a plug and play even though some of it may not be utilized. I would disagree on some comments about the ability of the software to learn. It appears they did some engineering to allow the software to learn in certain areas but to also follow the basic parameters. Case in point there are timing tables, hi octane and low octane -looks like paramteters to me to make the software to follow high and low points but it will blend the actual timing tables to run inbetween these. The idle routine needs about half an hour to learn say on cam changes then the car will idle pretty well. It looks to me that they incorporated some fancy autocontrol routines to allow that to happen. I think the code in the past had problems where the code could easily go unstable if you were off by a bit where today get the parameters right and the code will iterate without going unstable because the routines are so much better than in the past.
09-26-2008, 03:02 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Ever since Moates started selling more commercial products he gave up on the DIY movement. How often have you seen him here talking about this stuff around here on his own? Sad. His efforts went into Hondas and "other" stuff..........commercial products. This may offend some, but it is true.
The only way to understand how the tables work is to know ALL of the code. Take a look at the great Hac that Dimented24x7 put out there for the $0D code. It shows how wrong most of the TBI_to_TPI doc that people have been using. Using the hac is the only way to understand how the fuel, spark, EGR, etc tables work. It is the only way to tune a GM ECM/PCM properly.
To gain that level of understanding and tunability you need a complete Hac. I think all the available commercial tuning software out there is extremely inadequate and definitely not worth what they ask for it.
I also don't think that many of the people that released commercial packages are nearly as smart as dimented24x7 or put in the effort that he has. I think he does it more for the challenge (i.e. a true DIYer) rather than looking to start a business and sell stuff for profit.
The only way to understand how the tables work is to know ALL of the code. Take a look at the great Hac that Dimented24x7 put out there for the $0D code. It shows how wrong most of the TBI_to_TPI doc that people have been using. Using the hac is the only way to understand how the fuel, spark, EGR, etc tables work. It is the only way to tune a GM ECM/PCM properly.
To gain that level of understanding and tunability you need a complete Hac. I think all the available commercial tuning software out there is extremely inadequate and definitely not worth what they ask for it.
I also don't think that many of the people that released commercial packages are nearly as smart as dimented24x7 or put in the effort that he has. I think he does it more for the challenge (i.e. a true DIYer) rather than looking to start a business and sell stuff for profit.
09-26-2008, 03:25 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Junk,
I agree with you. thats why I'm all for helping out where I can. I can't get my head around assembly for some reason, probably becuase it is sooo detail oriented, and I lose track of where I am with all those bits flying around. I try to help out hardware-wise where I can.....
I do have to say, I recommend newbs to use moates for chip adapters, etc, since it's easier for the laymen to use those than make thier own...I also appreciate that he keeps the file manager running....
I also believe the commercial product are not worth their cost....maybe half to 3/4 of what they sell for....reminds me of all the GTO parts out there.....yikes, price a posi or ring and pinion.....ugh....I know why they do it, but you'd think they'd sell a boatload more licenses by dropping the cost, even with shops using a single license....
I agree with you. thats why I'm all for helping out where I can. I can't get my head around assembly for some reason, probably becuase it is sooo detail oriented, and I lose track of where I am with all those bits flying around. I try to help out hardware-wise where I can.....
I do have to say, I recommend newbs to use moates for chip adapters, etc, since it's easier for the laymen to use those than make thier own...I also appreciate that he keeps the file manager running....
I also believe the commercial product are not worth their cost....maybe half to 3/4 of what they sell for....reminds me of all the GTO parts out there.....yikes, price a posi or ring and pinion.....ugh....I know why they do it, but you'd think they'd sell a boatload more licenses by dropping the cost, even with shops using a single license....
09-26-2008, 04:03 PM
#45
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Regardless of what people think. The first step is to be able to communicate to the PCM -the keys to the lock. Get it unlocked and find out what is inside. I will help anywhere and everywhere needed on the testing side but again I still believe the first step is the interface cable. I am not a programmer but I have done lots of testing in the past with SAUJP and was going the 411 PCM route so I am there but I can't help crack it. Yes this board above and beyond all others holds a wealth of knowledge that can be put to good use. I know Moates could build an interface cable with a little work but again sounds like he is lost in the commercial world like you said. Open the box and they will come by the hundreds if not thousands along with a huge drop in the commercial products since they will no longer be able to gouge the consumer.
09-26-2008, 06:19 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Three cheers for the guys on this board!
When I found this board, I knew enough to be dangerous, now I am, because I have more knowledge that I've gained from all you guys.
Ron
When I found this board, I knew enough to be dangerous, now I am, because I have more knowledge that I've gained from all you guys.
Ron
09-26-2008, 09:21 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
See below...
Well guys I am in the LS1 world now and I happened to get lucky to get a Tuncercat OBDII setup from a buddy that bought it less than a month before TC stopped selling it to the open market. It is true he does not support the CAN interface but it appears the the OBDII interface cable works for all the future interfaces on the other options in the marketplace -HP and EFILive. TC's usual mode of operation is all of a sudden it is there meaning he may support the CAN interface but we will not know when. I know that the licenses appear to all be Vin locked execpt of course TC's. This tells me that either the software is locking it to either some sort of flash in the software or the cable itself since there is a black box interface between the laptop and the PCM itself. From what I found from the CODE, the PCMs use seed/key pairs that are required to unlock the PCM. There is a security access status flag that must be set to use the extended modes (mode $34/35/36 block upload/download, mode $A1 4x VPW, etc.). These modes are required to offload the current binary and upload the software to the RAM to reflash. The tuning package likely resets the seed/key stored on the flash to something proprietary that locks out conventional scan tools and other tuner packages. The only way to bypass it is to socket the PCM and reset the seed/key or guess, and guess, and guess...
Another avenue that could be explored is to try to get Moates involved but I suspect he has agreements between TC and EFI. Either way his interface board could be a good avenue to explore to see how he does his RT tuning. If he can bypass it then someone else can also. BTW TC released a OBDII file definition editor. Sound familiar? Again hack the interface to communcate to the PCM and I would suspect that something like Tunerpro would probably work or something very similiar to build tables. Thats the whole idea. I already have a lot of the calibration defined, enough to start tuning. Tuner pro will work to edit the sections of the flash. It can even calculate the checksum correctly for the earlier 98-00 PCMs. Just need to flesh out the VPW routines to flash the PCM.
I'm all for the code being hacked completely but again I think that it is not needed. There are comments some of the coding used. My take on it is GM took all their knowledge and focused on problem areas along with using standard blocks of code regardless of what engine they were going to use it on and just did a plug and play even though some of it may not be utilized. I would disagree on some comments about the ability of the software to learn. It appears they did some engineering to allow the software to learn in certain areas but to also follow the basic parameters. Case in point there are timing tables, hi octane and low octane -looks like paramteters to me to make the software to follow high and low points but it will blend the actual timing tables to run inbetween these. The idle routine needs about half an hour to learn say on cam changes then the car will idle pretty well. It looks to me that they incorporated some fancy autocontrol routines to allow that to happen. I think the code in the past had problems where the code could easily go unstable if you were off by a bit where today get the parameters right and the code will iterate without going unstable because the routines are so much better than in the past. The newer computers seem to have just as many issues, if not more. Case in point: I picked up an '04 Malibu Maxx, one of the first ones made. They have the later power PC based PCMs with the full CAN bus electronic dashboards, DIC, etc. These cars have some well known calibration faults as they are the first year models. I didnt care because I got it for cheap. But, it does have some annoying issues since the calibration doesnt quite match the engine. It has a sinusoidal surge at light engine load at cool temps as well as a CONSTANT light misfire at idle when warm. It also likes to not start once in a while when its hot. It just cranks and cranks and cranks... All of these are covered in the TSBs and result from the calibration not matching the engine.
Its these sort of issues that are the reason you need to have access to everything. If it can happen to a stock engine with a weenie little cam in it, what would happen when you try to use one on a completly different motor with an old school carb cam in it that pulls around 10-12 in Hg at idle?
Another avenue that could be explored is to try to get Moates involved but I suspect he has agreements between TC and EFI. Either way his interface board could be a good avenue to explore to see how he does his RT tuning. If he can bypass it then someone else can also. BTW TC released a OBDII file definition editor. Sound familiar? Again hack the interface to communcate to the PCM and I would suspect that something like Tunerpro would probably work or something very similiar to build tables. Thats the whole idea. I already have a lot of the calibration defined, enough to start tuning. Tuner pro will work to edit the sections of the flash. It can even calculate the checksum correctly for the earlier 98-00 PCMs. Just need to flesh out the VPW routines to flash the PCM.
I'm all for the code being hacked completely but again I think that it is not needed. There are comments some of the coding used. My take on it is GM took all their knowledge and focused on problem areas along with using standard blocks of code regardless of what engine they were going to use it on and just did a plug and play even though some of it may not be utilized. I would disagree on some comments about the ability of the software to learn. It appears they did some engineering to allow the software to learn in certain areas but to also follow the basic parameters. Case in point there are timing tables, hi octane and low octane -looks like paramteters to me to make the software to follow high and low points but it will blend the actual timing tables to run inbetween these. The idle routine needs about half an hour to learn say on cam changes then the car will idle pretty well. It looks to me that they incorporated some fancy autocontrol routines to allow that to happen. I think the code in the past had problems where the code could easily go unstable if you were off by a bit where today get the parameters right and the code will iterate without going unstable because the routines are so much better than in the past. The newer computers seem to have just as many issues, if not more. Case in point: I picked up an '04 Malibu Maxx, one of the first ones made. They have the later power PC based PCMs with the full CAN bus electronic dashboards, DIC, etc. These cars have some well known calibration faults as they are the first year models. I didnt care because I got it for cheap. But, it does have some annoying issues since the calibration doesnt quite match the engine. It has a sinusoidal surge at light engine load at cool temps as well as a CONSTANT light misfire at idle when warm. It also likes to not start once in a while when its hot. It just cranks and cranks and cranks... All of these are covered in the TSBs and result from the calibration not matching the engine.
Its these sort of issues that are the reason you need to have access to everything. If it can happen to a stock engine with a weenie little cam in it, what would happen when you try to use one on a completly different motor with an old school carb cam in it that pulls around 10-12 in Hg at idle?
09-26-2008, 09:28 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
The '411 also uses a datalink controller, but its different. Regardless, if you can get the spec sheet for it, you can use it to gain entry into the PCM.
09-26-2008, 09:40 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Ever since Moates started selling more commercial products he gave up on the DIY movement. How often have you seen him here talking about this stuff around here on his own? Sad. His efforts went into Hondas and "other" stuff..........commercial products. This may offend some, but it is true.
The only way to understand how the tables work is to know ALL of the code. Take a look at the great Hac that Dimented24x7 put out there for the $0D code. It shows how wrong most of the TBI_to_TPI doc that people have been using. Using the hac is the only way to understand how the fuel, spark, EGR, etc tables work. It is the only way to tune a GM ECM/PCM properly.
To gain that level of understanding and tunability you need a complete Hac. I think all the available commercial tuning software out there is extremely inadequate and definitely not worth what they ask for it.
I also don't think that many of the people that released commercial packages are nearly as smart as dimented24x7 or put in the effort that he has. I think he does it more for the challenge (i.e. a true DIYer) rather than looking to start a business and sell stuff for profit.
The only way to understand how the tables work is to know ALL of the code. Take a look at the great Hac that Dimented24x7 put out there for the $0D code. It shows how wrong most of the TBI_to_TPI doc that people have been using. Using the hac is the only way to understand how the fuel, spark, EGR, etc tables work. It is the only way to tune a GM ECM/PCM properly.
To gain that level of understanding and tunability you need a complete Hac. I think all the available commercial tuning software out there is extremely inadequate and definitely not worth what they ask for it.
I also don't think that many of the people that released commercial packages are nearly as smart as dimented24x7 or put in the effort that he has. I think he does it more for the challenge (i.e. a true DIYer) rather than looking to start a business and sell stuff for profit.
One thing is for sure, any future PCMs will require people to team up to work on them. The later ones are too big for one person to do on their own. The later one and two meg flash chips probably yield hundreds of thousands of lines of code when you disassemble the bin.
One thing I wonder is how the power PC instruction set compares to the M68332? The 68332 has a large and somewhat convoluted instruction set. Its almost like C, with blackbox like commands such as TaBle LookUp. The addressing schemes also lead to mind numbingly complicated use of the stack with some of the generic subroutines.
09-26-2008, 09:50 PM
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Re: Any coding/development being done with the OBD-II stuff?
Dimented let me know if I can do any kind of testing. I should be able to go in and help with some tables in Tunerpro if we can get something going. My car will be up and running in a few months after that I am either going from a 98 PCM to the 411 or a 04 GTO/Vette PCM definition. People say it is not needed but I guess I am warped being in the TPI world too long. Also with TC it uploads binary files so we can test using that format even without a cracked interface for the time being.