V6 owners, take a look - Page 3 - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

coolrimsatleast · 04-06-2009, 03:29 PM

Ok, I was thinking the other connection by the ECM was part of the aldl connection.

Anyway I switched E to M on the actual aldl connector/port, but I'm still curious about what to do with the wire that was already in M.

Leave it disconnected or just put it in E? For now I'm leaving it unhooked while I fight with the remote oil filter setup. If I get to the point of actually trying to start it today, then I guess I'll see.

*Also, what year of t-bird do I need for the MAF?

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bl85c · 04-06-2009, 10:38 PM

Just swap them. '96 with a v6 is what you should look for, although I've found the same maf in the 4.6's.

coolrimsatleast · 04-07-2009, 06:21 PM

It's almost exactly what I was afraid was going to happen.

It starts and dies. giving it gas doesn't help. Oil pressure is built up. I've got an oil leak to fix first before I can run it though.

How do I go about hooking up the computer to it anyway? Have the car in the run position and then hook up the cables and computer, or do I hook up the computer and have it on first, then turn the key to the run position?

*I guess here in a couple hours I'll try hooking up the laptop to the aldl port and see if I can at least look at the chip.

Either the chip didn't get programmed (and I'm pretty sure I did it correctly, but when I read it, all I could do was read to buffer, save buffer to file, and open the bin and xpf files. So I wasn't completely sure it was actually programmed)

or the ECM is bad.

The repinning has to be right, as I scrutinized each pin with a vengeance, but I'll double check them anyway.

bl85c · 04-07-2009, 11:36 PM

Hook the ecm up key off. Did the fan come on when you turned the key on?

coolrimsatleast · 04-08-2009, 01:56 PM

edit* oops

Ok, jumped A and B and got the usual 12 and also 21.

(2.8mfi) TPS voltage was above 2.5 volts for 5 seconds when the MAP sensor signal showed manifold vacuum above 15 pounds or TPS signal voltage was over 4.5 volts.

(3.1mfi)TPS voltage was above 4.3 volts for 10 seconds when engine was running and air flow was less than 17 gm/sec.

(5.7tpi)TPS voltage was above 2.5 volts for 3 seconds when the MAP sensor signal showed manifold vacuum to be 15 pounds or more, or TPS was above 4.8 volts at anytime.

Having a 165 ecm with a 730 memcal, I don't know which one to go with. I'll see if one of those wires I repinned had something to do with the TPS, and make sure it's in the right spot I guess.

I guess I'll splice those two injector wires (c15 and d14) to the other two wires. I left them unplugged, but maybe my car needs them.

*edit Spliced the two wires. Same problem. Starts, stumbles and dies. Fan came on too.

coolrimsatleast · 04-09-2009, 06:00 PM

Edit*

It runs now, but not very good.

Fan is on. code 21 (tps) and 34 (maf). What ADS do I need for tunerpro to datalog? The four it came with are for the V8.

coolrimsatleast · 04-11-2009, 07:50 PM

Any ideas? I can't think of anything other than trying the knock sensor in B7 or Looking for another ecm in case this one is bad.

I'v been looking at the wiring for the maf and tps, because those are the codes I'm getting, and I can see how those would make it run like crap, but the wiring is right according to everything I see. I keep looking for some other way to wire them.

If I can't find another ecm monday or find something wrong, I'm putting the 302 back in until I find another ecm, because I'm getting burned out quick. .

*I might try the tbird maf too. Or maybe one of the older bins. 'F' maybe.

bl85c · 04-11-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrimsatleast

(2.8mfi) TPS voltage was above 2.5 volts for 5 seconds when the MAP sensor signal showed manifold vacuum above 15 pounds or TPS signal voltage was over 4.5 volts.

(3.1mfi)TPS voltage was above 4.3 volts for 10 seconds when engine was running and air flow was less than 17 gm/sec.

(5.7tpi)TPS voltage was above 2.5 volts for 3 seconds when the MAP sensor signal showed manifold vacuum to be 15 pounds or more, or TPS was above 4.8 volts at anytime.

What are these supposed to mean? If that's what the tps is giving you then it's bad. Or not being read correctly.

Try reprogramming the eeprom. When it's not programmed correctly or absent the fan & check engine light come on. Eeproms can be a bit touchey, I've had sevral 'erase' themselves. Use the most recent bin you can, the early ones have a few driveability problems I tuned out of the later ones. The ads you need is the '$32B (v6)' file on moates.net. You can use any $6E ads for the $6E files. D14 and C15 shouldn't matter, they're just there for redundancy. Make sure you have D10 grounded on A12.

coolrimsatleast · 04-13-2009, 03:37 PM

Erased chip, reprogrammed, took to a different computer and plugged in. Loaded 'L' bin to buffer and verified chip against buffer. all was good.

Same running problems.

Erased chip again. Saw on moates under the 512 chip specs (For "start of device value" 27C128 original, set to C000 hex. For 27C256 original, set to 8000 hex)

My original chip is a 256, and the only thing I see in the prom I/O is the chip start and end values, and buffer values. So I change the chip start value to 008000.

Went from this: 'Buffer start 000000, end 003fff' to this: 'start 000000, end 007fff'
Chip start 00c000, end 0fffff to this 'start 008000, end 0fffff'

The buffer end changed automatically when I changed the chip start. So I tried it, and when I turned the key to 'run' the fan came on and the SES light came on and stayed on. No blink off and back on like it's supposed to.

I didn't even bother trying to start it. With my luck it would probably tach out instantly and blow up.

*Just tried 'buffer start 000000, end 003fff and chip start 008000 end 00Bfff. Same thing.

All that being said, what buffer and chip addressing are you using?

That other thread about emulating and not running is all taken care of. I realized soon after I posted it that I was supposed to make a new wire from pin D10 and splice right back into A12. Lack of imagination on my part (it sucks being laid off, looking for a new job and place to live, whilst trying to do something I've never attempted before with a car).

The tps and maf codes are due to the prom, chip, or ecm. They were working like normal before I started this. I had to cut the connectors off 2 wires and use the connectors from the disconnected leads, and I soldered them, but those were the MAT and Fan control.

I'll invest in an emulator once I know this this is going to run right.

RBob · 04-13-2009, 08:51 PM

For a $6E/$32 BIN, the buffer is: 0x0000 to 0x3FFF

That is a 16KB BIN size. Note that there is bytes & bits in use here for sizes. The BIN file size is in bytes. The EPROM size is in bits. Eight bits to a bytes. So a 16KB BIN is a 128kb PROM.

If you are burning a 256kb PROM, then need to offset to the high side. The lower 128 kb won't be used. The upper 128kb is burned.

So the buffer is:

start: 0x0000
stop: 0x3FFF

If using a 256kb PROM, chip is:

start: 0x4000
stop: 0x7FFF

If using a 512kb PROM, chip is:

start: 0xC000
stop: 0xFFFF

Note that the buffer remains the same for any size PROM. It is the chip offsets that change.

HTH's,

RBob.

coolrimsatleast · 04-13-2009, 10:13 PM

Sadly got the same results. Fan and SES come on before even cranking.

using:
buffer- start 0x4000 end 0x7fff

chip- start 00c000 end 00ffff

Brought the chip back in and verified it with the buffer. Everything good there. I need to get a zif adapter ordered to make pulling the chip in and out easier.

bl85c · 04-14-2009, 12:40 AM

Hmm, I'm starting at c000 with an SST 27st512 chip.

coolrimsatleast · 04-14-2009, 01:21 AM

Yep, SST27st512, on moates it said if the original was 256 use 008000 for the chip start, but now I realized the new prom is 128, so 00c000 must be it. (That and you're using it.)

I had to clarify those last buffer/chip addresses I used. it didn't turn out right when i posted it.

Naturally the junkyard had no 165 ecms either.

RBob · 04-14-2009, 08:45 AM

I goofed. In the second part I should have said chip, not buffer. And got some of the numbers wrong.

The buffer will never change (unless stacked).

This is the buffer part for a 16KB BIN:

start: 0x0000
stop: 0x3FFF

The chip part for a 256kb PROM:

start: 0x4000
stop: 0x7FFF

The chip part for a 512kb PROM:

start: 0xC000
stop: 0xFFFF

I'm going to edit my previous post.

RBob.

coolrimsatleast · 04-14-2009, 10:59 PM

Is there a difference between 0's and X's? I can only put an X for 3 of them. I think those addresses are what I originally tried, but with no X's.

I can do it with both of the 'start's, but either the chip or buffer 'stop/end' has to be a 0.
chip
start 0xc000
stop 0xffff

buffer
start 0x0000
stop 003fff
I'll try this combo and edit in my results.

*nope. Well, closer anyway. turned to run and everything is normal. Start up and runs bad, fan on, 21 and 34.

Either I don't have the addresses quite right yet, or the ECM isn't reading the tps and maf pins.

*just tried same addresses only with all zero's for buffer start. Still the same thing. Double checked maf and tps 5v return wire colors again. They're correct.

coolrimsatleast · 04-17-2009, 07:00 PM

Picked up two 165 ecms for $30, one with a memcal. Swapped memcals in that one and tried it. Car ran the same, but I also noticed the ses didn't do it's 'on, off, on', when I turned the key to run, just on.

Any input on using 0 or X in the addresses?

I'm about to pull the maf and tps pins and re-insert them, not that it'll do anything.

After that I'm putting the 302 back in for now. I'm getting too frustrated with this thing.

RBob · 04-17-2009, 08:42 PM

The '0x' just defines that the address (buffer/chip value) is in hex.

I don't know how the programming device you are using expects these values. It may be that the '0x' is not required. I don't know this.

RBob.

bl85c · 04-18-2009, 12:45 PM

I don't put it in on mine. Just c000 and program.

coolrimsatleast · 04-20-2009, 12:06 AM

I might have to give up for now and put the 302 back in. This ecm swap will not work no matter what I try. I wish there was someone in my area that had done it already. I'd try to convince them to let me try their ECM.

Neither of the other two ECMs I picked up a few days ago work right. (one doesn't blink the SES on, off, and back on when turned to run, the other doesn't light up the SES at all.)

I've checked the re-pin job multiple times (didn't try putting the knock sensor in B7 though) Checked the wires from the tps and maf to the pins with a multimeter too. As a last ditch effort I'll probably try the knock in B7, and swich C5 and C6 tomorrow before repinning back to the 302.

Tunerpro rt with the burn 2 requires two 0's in the buffer and chip addressing.
chip start-00c000 stop-00ffff
buffer start-000000 stop-003fff = same problem. code 21, 34, SES, and the fan runs.

The chip is holding the prom. I'd bring it back in after starting the car, hook it back up the computer, verify it against the prom i/o buffer, and it's still good.

chip was mounted in the burn2 with the bottom at one end and the notch towards the handle, etc, etc.

I ordered a zif adapter and two more chips. I'm not spending money on an emulator though if I can't even get this thing to work the way it is.

While I wait for those I'm going to look for differences between the 85 and 89 tps and maf systems. Probably won't find any, but I have no other ideas. Also will keep looking for another 165 ecm, or have mine tested (the first one I got that does everything right, except read the tps and maf) if I can find a place that does it.

Otherwise, I guess I'll have to look into swapping my wire harness, plenum, TB, and whatever else to a 90-92 map 730 system so I can tune it.

ttypecamaro · 04-20-2009, 01:26 PM

aren't 1985 v8 f-body efi setups unique to that year only?

bl85c · 04-20-2009, 01:53 PM

The '85 TPI setup is unique- the pinout differs somewhat from the '85 v6 pinout (even though they both have an '870 ecm) and the '86-up TPI's. Interestingly, the '85 v6 pinout and the '86-up v6 pinout is the same. I'm not sure why this isn't working for you, I've talked with a few other members that have done the swap and say they haven't had a problem yet. Maybe your bin file is corrupted somehow?

coolrimsatleast · 04-20-2009, 08:53 PM

I'll have to take a close look at all the wiring tomorrow.

I switched back to the 302, and I still have code 21, SES, and the fan running.

*edit
It was driving me nuts so I took a look at it again.

I screwed up. C9 was switched with C12 (they're both dark blue). If I had those like that with the 165, then it explains the fan running and the TPS code. The MAF code was still a mystery though, as I'm not getting it now.

We'll see how it runs once I get my zif adapter and a few more chips (I don't know how many tunes these things will take), and give it another try.

Might take a look for that t-bird maf and try the other xdf too.

coolrimsatleast · 04-27-2009, 08:32 PM

It's down to the MAF. still getting code 34 and it runs crappy. I found out what was wrong with the tps code and fan running.

Got the data-logging to work and I'm getting 10-12 g/sec from the MAF at around 800-1000 rpms. I revved it up a little and it went up to around 17 g/sec, so I guess it's reading the maf, yet it's throwing a code and running crappy as if it's not reading it.

I don't know if 10-12ish g/sec is normal for the maf or not.

I've been driving for the last week with the 302 back in and haven't had any problems.

Anyway the brown and white wire is in the right spot, and I know I didn't confuse it with the ses brown and white wire, because the ses works and I never pulled it out either.

I also used fresh downloads of the 32b (v6) xdf and the 'L' bin, and a new chip with the zif adapter (makes pulling it in and out so much easier.

I'm thinking of going to the junkyard tomorrow and finding the t-bird maf and trying $6e. (must remind myself now to pull the cold-start inj plug too)

bl85c · 05-17-2009, 07:10 PM

By the way, you weren't trying to use that memcal that was melted, were you? I don't think you would buy thought I'd ask, LOL. Make sure you have the maf repin in the right place and you have the right wire, then see if your maf hasn't crapped on you. You should be seeing a little less air at that rpm. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I responded a while ago but apparently it didn't show up.

coolrimsatleast · 06-08-2009, 09:05 PM

Nope, grabbed another memcal from the junkyard and used the bypass adapter. One of those ecms that didn't work at all got pulled apart, and I cut the end off a 2.8 harness to make an adapter. I got tired of repinning everytime I wanted to try the new ecm.

I still need to solder the wires to the pins, and then it will be ready. I've been looking for the t-bird maf and haven't found one yet. (Although there was one I saw on a cougar I believe that had all the same numbers on it. thinking about going back and getting it. was on a 92 so I wasn't sure if it really was identical)

The car is running ok with the stock ecm. Getting about 26mpg. No codes. Whatever the problem is it's in the re-pin job, the ecm, the memcal, or the chip programming.

Right now though I also can't find any other memcals, ecms, or mafs to try. I need to find somebody around here that has done this swap so i can try my ecm in their car or try their ecm in my car.

drdave88 · 06-18-2009, 05:21 PM

Has anyone ever heard of a Needhams EMP-20 programmer? Will this work with what you guys are doing here? I work with a guy who will let me use this for free.

drdave88 · 06-26-2009, 09:25 PM

OK I found that the programmer I can get ahold of will work, so my next question is.... can I use the latest file that has been updated without a knock sensor or does your tune NEED a knock sensor? What would happen if I didnt use a knock sensor and ran the "2.8 v6 _'165ecm (L)" file?

bl85c · 06-27-2009, 04:28 PM

It will run without it, but it will set a code.

firstfirebird · 06-27-2009, 05:31 PM

I just bought a knock sensor for a '93 Camaro OBD1 swap I'm working on, it was only about $50 or so, and is easy to install.

drdave88 · 07-09-2009, 02:30 PM

Is there a difference in any of the 27C128 EPROMs? I have been looking around and see a lot of different types, theres 20I/L, 20I/P, 20I/SO..... do any of these matter? WTF do they mean anyway?

bl85c · 07-09-2009, 09:23 PM

I can't tell you what they mean, but there is a difference between them. When I got my first 27SF512 it had the designation 80-3C-PGE instead of 70-3C-PGE at the end and I couldn't program it.

drdave88 · 07-10-2009, 07:11 AM

Can I use the 27SF512 instead of the 27C128? The level of confusion is increasing quickly with all these different chips.

bl85c · 07-10-2009, 10:36 PM

That's actually a better chip to use.

firstfirebird · 07-11-2009, 09:41 AM

I like the SST27SF512's just fine. Have to make sure the offset is sorrect when burning with my Willems is all.

coolrimsatleast · 07-11-2009, 11:39 PM

In a month when I get home from California I'll install the t-bird maf I got and re-program using $6E.

Don't know why, or if, it would make a difference, but it's the only hope I have until I find another 165 ecm that works.

drdave88 · 07-20-2009, 10:04 PM

OK, all Im looking for right now is to burn one chip for my ECM, get a base setting and then I will go from there so right now I dont wanna spend much at all. I just want to get one cheap chip burned.
Im going to get a ZIF so I can swap a new chip out later, but I just want to know what (OTP) chip I can use, or any type of cheap chip.
Ive got a '165 ECM, a Needhams EMP-20 burner, im going to get a ZIF piggy back. I just need to know what EPROM to get. I havent seen any sort of a right answer yet for me. If anyone can give me a link as to what will work........ please!!

Oh to mention... I dont HAVE to have an OTP chip, just let me know what EPROM I can use..... a link would be perfect, or even a part number. again, this is ALL that is holding my back at the moment.

bl85c · 07-20-2009, 11:18 PM

Just get a 27SF512 from moates.

drdave88 · 07-21-2009, 06:54 AM

Isnt there something i have to do with the extra space on the chip before or after i burn my stuff on it? i think i read that somewhere.

bl85c · 07-21-2009, 10:06 AM

You don't have to fill the entire chip, just program it with an offset starting at 00C000.

firstfirebird · 07-22-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bl85c

You don't have to fill the entire chip, just program it with an offset starting at 00C000.

I would just like to add that you can check the burn offset by reading the chip as a 27c256 (or 128, whatever your ECM has) without an offset and it should read like a stocker.

Chips have the info on the end of them, this is why you have to have an offset when burning, or typically the burner will put the info at the front of the chip.

bl85c · 09-13-2009, 02:52 AM

I think I've held on to this for long enough now. New bin for $6E out now, name is '2.8 \'165ecm ($6E).bin' same place as before. Also have an xdf available, name is '$6E XDF.xdf' but any $6E xdf will work. This bin has wbO2 input already set up, all you need to do is plug wb signal into pin D8 and use my '1227165 $6E (WB).ads' aldl definition to look at it. Both the bin and aldl definiton are set up to use an LC-1's nb and wb signals.

You will need an analog 70mm t-bird maf found on late '90's v6 t-birds (mine was off a '97) to use $6E. Repin ecm pin B6 (maf signal) to pin C11 then cut the old maf connector off and splice t-bird maf connector pin A to power wire, pin B to ground wire, pin C also to ground wire and pin D to signal wire. You can slip a piece of rubber 3" tubing connector over the large end of the maf to get it hooked up to the air filter/duct. Knock sensor required because of highway enlean and it will set a code without it.

This bin has highway enleanment, DFCO and decel enlean enabled, as well as a few other tricks I employed on the previous bins. DFCO seems to be more agressive in $6E than $32B and will stay in DFCO longer. If you drop the pedal just before you start decending a hill you can stay in DFCO for the whole decent, and it will provide some engine braking when the TCC is locked in DFCO. I've made a few tweaks to accel enrich tables to get a little better mileage with ginger pedal use, and quick response at higher throttle openings. Gradual pedal opening and quick closing should give you best mileage. Recycled the timing table out of the last $32B bin with some minor changes, so it could definately benefit from some work there.

The wb data is output inplace of the engine run time and the mat temp won't display correctly with the aldl definition, but they're unimportant anyway. I've worked most of the bugs out of the bin, but occasionally the tcc will unlock & relock at steady cruise for no apparent reason and it needs a huge %change to the PE vs RPM table to get the desired afr, but other than that it's fine. When I have time I'll get those resolved, but probably won't be for quite a while.

Edit- I just noticed that I have the egr enable set to 100*F, you'll need to change that to -40*F in the 'Disable EGR if MAT < X' constant.

SubTech · 09-27-2009, 11:37 AM

I may be blind or at least I haven't found what I need. Hopefully! maybe someone can tell me or point me in the right direction. I have a 3.1 from a 91 Firebird that was attached to a 4L60 auto trans. I have the ECU (1227730) and wiring harness out of the Firebird. I am dropining the 3.1 into a vehicle with a 5 spd manual trans. 1. I have found "two" different ECU pinout list which have conflicting information. Can someone tell me what/where each pin does/goes? 2.How or what can I do to eliminate the wiring for the auto trans? 3. If I need to obtain another ECU can someone tell me what vehicle(s) to look in?

coolrimsatleast · 10-11-2009, 05:48 PM

Ok I re-did my harness adapter to b6-c11 instead of b12 and I'm about to program a chip with the '2.8 \'165ecm ($6E).bin' and '$6E XDF.xdf'.

So far I'm wondering about one thing. Is a plain old Denso 4-wire O2 hooked up normally OK? Or do I need a WB O2 or 'LC-1' hooked up to D8. I found a Bosch WB for $86 just now, but I don't know what they normally cost. If I have to use a wb then I need to start searching and ordering one tonight.

My 'Disable EGR if MAT < X' constant was at 304degrees instead of 100, but now it's at -40.

I guess I'll change the single and double fire injector sizes to 16.99 and 17 lbs too. Almost forgot about those.

bl85c · 10-11-2009, 10:17 PM

You don't need a wb, the stock sensor's fine. You can change the conversion in the ads to use a different wb controller as well, as long as it's linear.

coolrimsatleast · 10-12-2009, 08:46 PM

Fail once again. Doesn't start.

I'm going to look for another ecm and try the stock maf and 32b or whatever again. If it still runs like crap with another ecm and doesn't start with $6e and the t-bird maf, then I guess I'll sell all this stuff, because I'm out of ideas and getting frustrated.

Try to find a low mileage 2.8 block I guess and replace this 3.4 so I can get the mileage I used to get and get rid of my 15-1700rpm mystery rattle too.

*Decided my other memcal that I tried to remove the chip from will work using the memcal adapter I bought. I'll try that along with checking my wiring again, checking the chip burn, and hopefully another ecm soon if I can find one.

If that doesn't work, who (who's swap works) wants to make some money?

razormedic911 · 11-17-2009, 07:25 PM

I've read thru this entire thread 3 times, and my brain is freezing. I am interested in doing this for my Camaro, but am confused about some things. You said its compatible with any 2.8 equipped f-body. I have and 89 with the 2.8. I went out today to look at my ECM, and it says its a 12271730. Seeing as the memcal we are supposed to use is from this model ecm, do I still need the '165 to use these bins, or will this not work at all because i have a different harness? Forgive me if this is a simple question, I am totally new at this particular facet of our cars. Thanks.

bl85c · 11-19-2009, 11:16 PM

What the heck, why am I not getting notifications for new posts?

Anyway, take a second look at your ecm for me. Are you positive it's a 1227730? There should be 3 plugs on the side instead of 2 on the bottom. If it is you don't need to swap, there's great support for that ecm.