Father & Son 1st Car Swap Project Chronicled - Page 6 - Engine Swap - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

flyitlikustolit · 06-04-2005, 11:16 AM

that's no joke. i'd kill for a media blaster right now.

kboehringer · 06-05-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
.......but it will not be nearly as cheap as if you got one from a junkyard......The stock one bends way too easily......But I'm sure you guys would be perfectly fine w/ a stock one (from a junkyard, that hasnt been cut and re-welded). I wouldnt re-use that torque arm... I could only imagine how much it will suck when the weld breaks.........

Sellmanb & TGO Friends,

We found a new-er torque arm this morning (before the rain started again..... SHUCKS!) You'll laugh like heck when you see this one!

We certainly feel more comfortable with the "New-er" ('86) J.Yard piece ($9.00) than the butchered old one (Circa '82). I assume the design must have changed a little to include the holes. Otherwise, the '86 model seems identical other than a little more bending on the edges.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

kboehringer · 06-05-2005, 06:27 PM

TGO Friends,

We've spent the majority of the weekend UNDER our Z-28 and several at the J.Yard. The Belly of our Z-28 needs to be squared away so that we can be ready for the engine and tranny. The Shortblock should be back at the end of this week. Hopefully we can be installing the Crank, Rods, Pistons and assembling the shortblock next weekend.

The attached photo shows a modification to the fuel system that we're going to have to address. Apparently, the fuel line for the Cross-Fire set-up must have been on the driver's side. To get the gas back over to the passenger side (to meet the mechanical pump), the previous owner tried this little trick. We could hardly see the line with all the crud under there. Now we have to transition it to the front properly.

Is there any reason why we couldn't run it straight to the front (like original) and cross behind the cross member just in front of the oil pan (or on the front side of the member)?

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

EDIT: Used Smaller Photo.....

kboehringer · 06-05-2005, 06:43 PM

TGO Friends,

We think we now have the PROPER STOCK tranny mount for a TH700 into a '82 Z-28. However, the metal in the area is too thin to drill and tap. We'll have to either fish some nuts down inside the channel or cut a hole in the side of the channel to get some in there. I remember watching a Trailer Hitch Installer putting nuts through a frame that were attached to wires......Wonder if they'll sell me a couple...I'll have to check. Anybody ever seen those? What the devil would ya call 'em. Nuts on Wires?

The mount we found has been blasted and painted. It's a bit shorter than what we had to start with. It looks like it will mount down farther and in the proper position for the tranny.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

five7kid · 06-05-2005, 08:28 PM

You're on the right track.

Believe it or not, the fuel line is almost where the factory took it. I didn't think much of that, so I routed the line across the front crossmember to the fuel pump. It seems to me that it would keep cooler that way. It was certainly easier, too. I have the V8 line in the garage attic, but there was a stud the factory used at the top of the tranny tunnel to mount a clip to hold the line up there in the V8 car, which is missing in my V6 car. I can't see if it's there on yours or not, I'd guess not.

I opened up the drain holes at the end of the frame members where the tranny crossmember mounts up to slide a nut up there on a box end wrench. A bit shadetree, I suppose, but it worked.

DAVECS1 · 06-06-2005, 12:25 AM

I take it you guys will not be needing the trans mount I have. Thats cool I am glad you guys found one. I feel bad I did not get it out to you soon enough. My offer still holds and next time I will try to get on the ball about shipping a little faster.

As a thought on mounting the cross member, I always thought that the backing metal was in the frame it just had to be tapped. Otherwise maybe you could weld some nuts to some small plates drill the holes you need large enough to fit the nuts inside and then weld the plates to the frame. It may lower the cross member an 1/8th or so, but I don't think that will hurt anything.

LT1guy · 06-06-2005, 10:09 AM

If you are just trying to get threaded holes in the subframe to mount your trans mount, you could use threaded inserts. I have seen them listed as "rivnuts" and "nutserts" or something like that. Basically, you have a gun (similar to a rivet gun) and a threaded insert. Drill the hole to the proper size, insert the rivnut, and pop it in place with the gun, just like installing a rivet. You can get them from NAPA (they'll probably have to order the kit, but the Atlanta warehouse has them usually), Snapon, and other tool suppliers, or if you have any friends who do sheetmetal fabrication they may let you borrow it.

five7kid · 06-06-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVECS1
As a thought on mounting the cross member, I always thought that the backing metal was in the frame it just had to be tapped.

Not on '82 models.

kboehringer · 06-06-2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVECS1
I take it you guys will not be needing the trans mount I have. .......

Dave,

No. It seems like we "probably" have the bracket we need. LT1Guy encouraged us to try a J.Yard on the North Side of Atlanta. We've been able to find quite a few parts at that location than we had not been able to find at the other yards. We did notice SEVERAL different set-ups for the T-700. We suppose some of those could also be "Owner" mis-assembly but there were definately a couple different set-ups.

Quote:

.....weld some nuts to some small plates.....

The metal of the channel is SOOOO thin that we don't know if nuts alone would be appropriate. We can't figure how much stress is applied either up or down on the bracket. It might not be too much but it seems like nuts alone without a plate would be kinds weak.

The machinist at work offered to take a piece of 1/2" Cold Rolled Steel (CRS). Don't ask me what the heck makes it different than regular steel and drill and tap holes in it to slide into the end (like Five7Kid did with the nuts). That's probably what we will do.

Sincerely,
Kurt

BruceEmbry · 06-06-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kboehringer
TGO Friends,

We've spent the majority of the weekend UNDER our Z-28 and several at the J.Yard. The Belly of our Z-28 needs to be squared away so that we can be ready for the engine and tranny. The Shortblock should be back at the end of this week. Hopefully we can be installing the Crank, Rods, Pistons and assembling the shortblock next weekend.

The attached photo shows a modification to the fuel system that we're going to have to address. Apparently, the fuel line for the Cross-Fire set-up must have been on the driver's side. To get the gas back over to the passenger side (to meet the mechanical pump), the previous owner tried this little trick. We could hardly see the line with all the crud under there. Now we have to transition it to the front properly.

Is there any reason why we couldn't run it straight to the front (like original) and cross behind the cross member just in front of the oil pan (or on the front side of the member)?

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

EDIT: Used Smaller Photo.....

Hi,
I know that the car was orginally Cross-Fire.
On my 82 that came with the LG4, there was both a fual-line and a fual-return line. The mach.-fual pump used on the LG4 engine had 3 connections: Fual, Fual-Return, and Carb.

Both of the Fual and Fual-return lines were routed up the drvier side and crosses over to the passager side somewhere around the transmission. The Fual Tank Vent line for the canister comes out on the driver side.

I made use of the orginal fual line and return for the TPI system. I mounted inline fual pump and filter in rear of the car on the drvier side frame rail.

Sincerely
Bruce Embry

kboehringer · 06-06-2005, 07:59 PM

Third GEn Guys,

When we were at the Junkyard we got a hose piece to the power steering that had a sensor in it. The n ew harness needed the sensor. I noticed that the other line was different than ours it went out to the raditaor and made a big loop across the front and came back. My Dad says he doesn't lknow why that is like that. Our pump hose doesn't do that What does it do? should we use one of them?

Derek

BruceEmbry · 06-06-2005, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kboehringer
Third GEn Guys,

When we were at the Junkyard we got a hose piece to the power steering that had a sensor in it. The n ew harness needed the sensor. I noticed that the other line was different than ours it went out to the raditaor and made a big loop across the front and came back. My Dad says he doesn't lknow why that is like that. Our pump hose doesn't do that What does it do? should we use one of them?

Derek

Hi Derek,
It functions as a Power Steering fluid cooler. It was added because of the use of electric fans that are cycled on and off with temp. You should use it!
Bruce

kboehringer · 06-07-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
Since you'll be replacing the tranny mount, you ought to get a poly trans mount bushing, and torque arm mount bushing from Spohn's website.

Sellmanb,

Found them on Spohn's site... Pretty reasonable price also.... $24.50 for the Tranny Bushing and $14.50 for the torque arm mount. We'll be placing the order soon. I'm going to give making a "Homemade" (at my plant) Wonder Bar a shot. If it turns out like crap.... I'll add one of theirs to the order!

Replacing these with Spohn parts is a real good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Sincerely,
Kurt

kboehringer · 06-07-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BruceEmbry
Hi Derek,.....You should use it!

Bruce,
Thanks for the response.... Derek will get the opportunity to remove the item from our favorite J.Yard car. (see attachment). I've suggested that he get more involved in asking questions at TGO and this was one thing he remembered that I didn't have an answer for.

FYI....Maybe a good idea for those building with scraps
We've been taking photos of all the J.Yard cars we get parts off of. Derek is documenting in (MSExcel) the; J.Yard/ Year/ Model/ VIN/ Block#/ Photo#/ Part(s) we take from each car. Just in case we need that info at a later date. The car below gave up it's wiring harness and torque arm & mount. It may also give up it's power steering lines if they are still there this weekend.

Thanks Again,
Kurt

91formulaSS · 06-07-2005, 09:15 AM

If your "homemade" wonderbar doesn't work out for you, I'd suggest buying one from TDS (banner at top of page). It uses three mounting holes instead of two and doesn't have the fitment issues that the Spohn one does. Not knocking Spohns products, I own many of them, it's just that there have been quite a few people on this board that had to clearance the mounting holes on the wonderbar, not that it's a big deal. I just hate grinding on new parts.

Nick

five7kid · 06-07-2005, 11:07 AM

It's not a sensor in the PS line, but rather a switch. If you're idling and RPMs drop, the ECM cuts the pressure to the PS to help "unload" the engine.

As I understand it, that is...

speedingpenguin · 06-07-2005, 01:17 PM

Do junkyards usually care about people taking pics of cars?
I've snuck my digital camera in a few times to grab pics of how stuff was mounted or whatever, but have always been a little hesitant to be snapping pics, as the guys at the junkyard i go to often are pricks and i prefer not having to argue with them about stupid stuff like that....
The smaller junkyards though i might start taking pics and stuff....
How many thirdgens are at the junkyards you go to? (Out of curiosity)
The ones up here are fairly packed!

kboehringer · 06-07-2005, 10:28 PM

speedingpenguin,

We've never asked permission, but we have never seen any signs indicating that photos are not permitted.

At the U-Pull-It places they look in our tool bucket before and after entry and our camera has been in there...They've never said anything.

RE: how stuff was mounted or whatever
That's why we started bringing it into the yard. Derek decided that it would be cool to have a "Complete Digital Scrapbook" and I wanted to save some additional info. in case we need it. Sometimes we use the camera to SEE what we're after (i.e. sensors up under the exhaust manifolds). Since we're using wiring off another car I wanted to have every tidbit of information about the donor. We even have the serial numbers from the computer, although it was damaged by another part VANDAL and we didn't buy it.

RE: How many thirdgens are at the junkyards you go to? (Out of curiosity)
There are a couple yards in Atlanta (http://www.pullapart.com/) that we frequent. Each location probably has 1000 cars. On a good day they have about 15 Third Gens at each location. The inventory changes weekly and is available online (so are the prices if you want to check). We have to go on a regularly to avoid missing out. The smaller U-Pull-It yards in the area may only have 5 or 6 but are not as picked over or destroyed by Vandals as the big yards.

We haven't used a full service "Wait-Here-While-We-Get-It" yard because of $$. Once we get to crunch time and are missing those one or two little gizmos we'll end up getting robbed at one of those.

Sincerely,
Kurt & Derek

PHOTO: Our aluminum manifold donor Z28....

kboehringer · 06-07-2005, 10:44 PM

Five7Kid,
RE: ....It's not a sensor in the PS line, but rather a switch....
Sounds like another very good reason to keep the computer and avoid "Stone Basic Wiring" as we had initially planned.

91formulaSS,
RE: ...three mounting holes instead of two...
Derek found a photo of the one you describe on one of the other threads by performing a search. That's the kind I'm gonna try to duplicate.

QUESTION:

The wonder bar plate is attached UNDER the sway bushings, the third bolt is to the side into the frame. If we use a little bit thicker plate (1/4") will that adversely affect the sway bar? We have over 100# of 1/4" CRS scraps.

Sincerely,
Kurt

91formulaSS · 06-08-2005, 09:39 AM

1/4" is thick, but it shouldn't adversly affect your sway bars function. Think of people using a lowering springs, that lowers your frame and consequently your swaybar brackets 1-2". If you are really concerned, you can shorten your endlink spacers by a 1/4" to keep your sway bar at the propper angle. but I don't think it's necessary.

Also, I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but you should really search those JY's for the 36mm hollow front sway bar and 24mm solid rear sway bar. Then buy new poly bushings and endlinks (preferably greasable). They will really keep the body roll down in the corners.

Nick

sellmanb · 06-09-2005, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kboehringer
Sellmanb,

Found them on Spohn's site... Pretty reasonable price also.... $24.50 for the Tranny Bushing and $14.50 for the torque arm mount. We'll be placing the order soon. I'm going to give making a "Homemade" (at my plant) Wonder Bar a shot. If it turns out like crap.... I'll add one of theirs to the order!

Replacing these with Spohn parts is a real good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Sincerely,
Kurt

The shipping costs a bit from Spohn, so beware of that. If you guys are doing a real good over-all freshen up of the car (or make it safe to drive again, I dont know what the prior owner was smoking when he did some of the stuff to the car you've described) then you might want to spend the extra money and get the full car poly bushing set. People swear up and down about how much better poly bushings are compared to the rubber GM ones.

kboehringer · 06-09-2005, 10:57 PM

Sellmanb & TGO Friends,

We're trying to keep busy until the ShortBlock is ready... Yesterday, we got under the car and removed the front sway bar brackets and took some measurements. The lower ball joints, pitman, idler, and link appear new.

While we were under there we noticed that it seemed like the (k-member) could be removed with only a couple bolts on each side. For a moment.... I considered pulling the whole thing out from under there. However (thankfully), the thought only lasted a moment.

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
..... If you guys are doing a real good over-all freshen up of the car or make it safe to drive again.....

For now I'll provide all the $ to address all the safety issues. We do want to get the Z-28 running properly and safely.... we are getting just a little anxious! There are still a couple high dollar parts on the yet-to-buy or yet-to-pay-for list (i.e MSD Ignition & CC Carb {if we can't find one in the J.Yard}).

Quote:

Originally posted by sellmanb
..... I dont know what the prior owner was smoking when he did some of the stuff to the car you've described

It's really amazing that someone would have gotten into this Z-28 and driven it without a tow truck and an ambulance in the rear view at all times. We've probably all seen this kind of mechanic work a hundred times before.

However, every person we've come in contact with at TGO IS a perfectionist that will not settle for that kind of garbage work! Not one person here has suggested the use of duct tape, super glue, or bailing wire. Everyone wants to do a professional job on their F-Body and wants to share the PROPER way of doing the job correctly. I think this is the reason Thirdgen.org appeals to me so much.

Sincerely,
Kurt

stenseltizm · 06-10-2005, 12:41 AM

I have a carb off of an 86' caprice classic. I'm not sure what cc stands for, but I'm assuming computer controlled. I believe this four barrel was, but I'm not sure. If you want it, it's yours. I ship things all the time ups for my company so let me know and it's on its way. I'll take some pictures and pm them to you.

I'm still looking for someone local that can teach me about carbs. Unfortunatly I'm young enough that all my hand-me-downs were electronic ignition fuel injected. Its good to see that your teaching your son the forgotten art of carborated engines. I've never had a carb until this holly 4150, and i can't seem to get it right. I'm sure that you and your son will cherish the knowlege and experience gained in this project.

BruceEmbry · 06-10-2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stenseltizm
I have a carb off of an 86' caprice classic. I'm not sure what cc stands for, but I'm assuming computer controlled. I believe this four barrel was, but I'm not sure. If you want it, it's yours. I ship things all the time ups for my company so let me know and it's on its way. I'll take some pictures and pm them to you.

I'm still looking for someone local that can teach me about carbs. Unfortunatly I'm young enough that all my hand-me-downs were electronic ignition fuel injected. Its good to see that your teaching your son the forgotten art of carborated engines. I've never had a carb until this holly 4150, and i can't seem to get it right. I'm sure that you and your son will cherish the knowlege and experience gained in this project.

A cc-carb or Computer Command Control Carb will have three electrical connectors on it. They are:
1) Electric Choke, single connection.
2) Fual/Aire Ratio Control Solinoid connector thats located on top of the float bowl area of the car. This is a two wire connector.
3) Thottle Position Sensor connector, three wire, on the front of the carb.

The CC-Carb or more properly term CCC-CARB first appear on GM cars in the late 70's. Everyone back them complained about durablity. For the 16 years and 204,000 miles that I ran the LG4 engine in my 82 Firebird, I did not have a single computer failure. The only ofther part of the CCC system besides the carb that I replaced was the O2 sensor. O2 sensors had to replaced about every 2 years to keep the car running corectly.

But due to the problems with the carb, I decided to switch it over to TPI with a new 350 engine.