88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

yea actually i am... it was a 48mm throttlebody with an airfoil... that throttlebody flows well up to 400hp and will not be a restriction until then so its more than i will ever need out of this project... i just want a properly running car again.....

gbayfisher

I agree 88fastgta, the TB is not easy to work with. Idle is always an issue. I may switch throttle bodies this winter if I can't get it to idle down. Mine doesn't shoot up like yours, but likes to hang. I also played with the iac port by cleaning it up some, it helped a bit.
I agree with gunmetal, go new style if you can.

Yes, I agree, third gens rock in the looks department, for some strange reason, I have had countless 10-15 year olds qawking and thumbing the car up. I suppose it looks alien to them because its a rare day that you see a third gen around my city.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

yea you should switch tb... it makes no sense that a throttlebody gives all these issues....... i probably put in 1800 dollars into this intake lol smh.... just cant get over the looks and the superb low and midrange power.... ahhhh.... the prices you pay for hotrodding.....

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

You can pick up ported LS1 TBs for like $100. I bought one from POTZ performance or something like that on eBay. Haven't had any trouble with it at all. I did fill the hole in the blade cuz my IAC couldn't pull the idle down.

gbayfisher

what iac motor, and tps did you use? What brackets did you use to attach throttle and tv cable?
i am seriously considering the swap, I never liked the First tb.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

me to i HATE the FIRST throttlebody.... it sucks ***.... i maybe interested in the ls1 TB if i can get it to mate to the first plenum...

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

1. throttle and TV cables are in the pass. side. That might pose an issue with you FIRST guys if you don't have any mounting bosses on that side of your plenum.

2. IAC and TPS are LS1 units. Wiring is just different plugs. These are also available on eBay.

3. Throttle cable can be a factory LS1 f-body non- traction control cable. I used a cable from a venture minivan, it fit better for me.

4. TV cable arm had to be fabricated. I pics are in my build thread. I can make more for $5.

5. Brackets. I used some aluminum angle, milled slotted holes to allow for adjustment, and milled the square pocket for the cable on the other leg. Then I drilled and tapped a square pattern of holes in a block of 1/2" thick aluminum to allow for about 2" of travel adjustment in my bracketry. I had this plate welded to my intake elbow. I can get pics if you want them.

gbayfisher

I think I get it, thanks.
Could prove to be a painfull swap with the First. I think it would be easier to go with a ported tpi unit, just need to fab an adapter plate. I need to see some bore size options with the tpi units.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

yea ima stick with the tpi throttlebody.... they have 48 52 and 58mm.... gbayfisher you would need a 52tb while i would need a 48mm.... im not expecting or really much want over 350whp with my setup anyways.... i fugre 340whp and 370wtq is more than enough for a fun daily driver....

gbayfisher

you mentioned ken was fabricating an adapter plate? I would like to see it once you get it. Another reason for going back to the stock style tb is the location of the sensors like you said, and i can hook my cruise back up properly.

thx

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

yes he is making me a adapter plate to use my old 48mm tpi throttlebody... his throttlebody is just too problematic for my taste and i dont feel like fooling with it anymore.... i will post pics of it when i get it... he said that it will take a few weeks because its something custom and he doesn't have his machine setup for it.....

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

You might want to check these guys out. www.accufabracing.com I ran across them during a dyno session and they can make something work. Hey its only money. They had a neat array of throttle bodies they were dyno testing and of course I had to ask about some for our cars and got a positive response. It might be a simple mod for them.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Aww it ain't that bad! I've got way more time than money, and I can machine things myself, so that makes a lot of this custom stuff a lot better of an option for me

gbayfisher

I have seen these guys before, not sure when/where, but you may have mentioned it on here at another time. They do make some nice pieces, I'll have to take a closer look. Was ther something in particular that you saw for tpi?
thx



I bet it does. your blessed with a good trade/skill.
I'm not much of a fabricator/machinist, though it would be fun to try. I do small and simple things, but limited in skill and machinery!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Was ther something in particular that you saw for tpi?"

I was looking over their mono-blade throttle bodies they were testing on the dyno and they looked very much like our throttle bodies except with different sensors. One was really huge like 1800cfm capacity. They have made some before, I believe he said for the LT1 which is very, very simliar to ours. Anyways just keeping the options open.

gbayfisher

Oh i see, thought maybe you saw something that they were testing, but not on the current product list.

gbayfisher

Just an update on the project.
I finally finished my work/business project that took me away from my family and car for the last two and a half months. Incase anyone is still following, i still have a few plans for the winter.

First thing is my conversion to Speed density and the EBL ecm, That should start tomorrow, and i hope to have it completed through the weekend. Looking forward to to that!

Second item is optimizing my First tpi intake to my combo, or replacing it with an HSR intake and selling the First, not sure which way to go as of yet. I really feel my combo can benefit from the HSR, but i know with some tweaking the First can work as well, or I would even bet, better. Still some calculating to do, once I have it figured out, i would like to procede asap so i can get it tuned. A re-stall may be in order as well, I think it could use a few more hundred rpm, possibly around 3000. I will see once i get it back on the dyno.
Some may remember my power level/tuning issues from last year. I'm sure with some intake and tuning work, I should have it running where it should be.

If all goes well, I am still considering a d1sc procharger for the very near future, just need to get the N/A combo working properly.
Stay tuned for more!

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

Turbo turbo turbo

gbayfisher

lol, if i was starting from scratch with a boosted build, for sure. at this point I think a S/C would work better for me.

I'm waiting for your turbo build! how's it going?

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

Like you said. Figure out the N/A part first. Your missing few hundred horsepower compared to your carb setup

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I heard first is coming out with 2" diameter runner tubes.... if you can get those, port the base out to match, I bet that wakes up the 383 alot and gives you another couple hundred rpm higher hp peak...thus making more HP overall. All depends on how fast you want to go

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

This update is long overdue

gbayfisher

few hundred would be nice. But i would say 50-70 rwhp


that i heard from 88fastgta, I called ken, and they are in the works. The most he can do right now is keep up tothe demand of the intake, its been selling very well. I dont see the 2 inch runners coming out for a long while.

I ported out one of the spare runners I bought to 1.9 inch with no problems. Atm, I am getting construed figures to my 'ideal" runner length and diameter, but things seem to be pointing towards a 1.85-1.9" . Once i confirm, I will get the rest opened up, and siamesed if needed. Problem is, every formula varies so much and i need to confirm a length before i procede.
Of course, thats if i dont scrap it , and go HSR!
You mentioned a company that cut down the HSR to sell complete, do you know who it is and how much?

Tell me about it!
Been ansy, but just too busy to get much into it. I \have Been doing some reading, and the list keeps growing. I also need to tie the car up a little tighter. I am going to do frame connectors, and new links out back, and strut tower braces. Strut brace could be an issue if I decide to go HSR.....

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

The thread that never dies. I dont have time to read all of this so whats the plan now stan? Say didnt see you at the dyno session.

You dont need a turbo. IMO you need an intake like a miniram as long as it jev's with the rest of the combo.

My miniram made 470rwtq on my stroker, and thats 440rwtq at 2500 rpm's. People say minirams dont make power down low have no clue what they are talking about.

gbayfisher

It wont die so long as there is something new to add to it. At worst, many can learn from the thread!

We lost touch for the dyno session. Is yours complete, or you going back to test it again?

That is a huge amount of low rpm torque. How much of it would you say is attributed to your huge cubes?
Your 421 cubes def makes up for any potential torque loss with the mini. I wonder how yours would dyno with a HSR type set up?
I know the mini rams work well, just don't think it will with my combo, I believe the overall average power output of the First or HSr would benefit me more.

I drive through Barrie all the time, i should stop in one time to see your ride.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The company was USM Racer...but nevermind now... they used to range from 750 for a slightly cut down HSR which is alot more than a box stock HSR, to 900 for a really short one designed to fit under LT1 4th gens and C4 vettes but now I check their website only 2 years later and they want 2,000 for a mild ported, cut down HSR with fuel rail kit. ARE YOU F_ING KIDDING ME!! OUTRAGEOUS. I nearly had a heart attack when I saw that price. I hope thats a typo. AT that point I'd say custom sheet metal intake is only a couple hundred more.

Theres actually a custom one for sale for 1300 from BRE. BRE Pro Ram. Custom intake that I'm not sure its even made right now. Believe it may be by bret bauer but not sure. BRE is his initials for Bauer Racing. Camaroz28.com in the classifieds Looks to be a HSR with plenum cut to fit LT1 fbodies

gbayfisher

Ok, i see, the back was cut to clear the cowl.
Too bad holley couldn't make this thing one inch lower. Sales would only benefit, considering it will only fit the 3rd camaro untouched, thus leaving vettes and birds looking for another option.
Cutting the hood brace is not a huge deal really, but i can see where many would hesitate. I will worry about it if i go that route.
I have also considered trying the mini ram, could always sell it if i don't like it.
decisions!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"but things seem to be pointing towards a 1.85-1.9" "

What rpm do you plan on turning?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Another guy on a vette forum who sawed off about a half inch of the plenum and welded it all back together.

http://www.thevettebarn.com/forums/c...h-ram-mod.html

gbayfisher

Thats the way i would do it.

gbayfisher

peak should come in around 5500, spin to about 6200-ish for shift.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You lose some plenum volume but I really dont think it will hurt too much. If you wanted, you could cut it like that, then in half down the middle to make it both shorter and then WIDEN it to get some volume back.

gbayfisher

Good point on widening if needed, but like you, i dont think volume would be an issue.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

actually not down the middle, then the bolt holes wouldnt line up!!. Cut the ends off both sides then widen. More cuts but thats the only way.

5500 rpm peak should be doable with a FIRST with the larger runners for sure. Some cam will keep power strong to 6200 rpm where you can shift at.

gbayfisher

lol, true.

my cam does pull there, did on the engine dyno before slowly dropping off. On the chasis dyno it pulled to 4900 than it crashed hard, just like the factory l98 tpi set up.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah I thought it would go to 5200 before flatlining abit but not crashing that hard til after 5500. 1.75" runners are good, but a strong 383 definately needs more CSA and flow. Or shorter runner length to gain some of the ram tuning effects and recover some flow losses..thus making more power and pulling abit more rpm. Those 2" runners would be a nice upgrade with the base ported to match. Should get you another 500 rpm. If not, light siamesing would be nice if possible.

gbayfisher

I was also suprised with the curve.
I was hoping to not have to pull the base, but it sure will need port matching at least at the entrance and blend into the base. So off it comes with either route I decide to take.

Ken mentioned in hind sight that he should have opened the runners up. For some reason, he let that slip past his mind when we talked about anticipated power levels.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I think I'll keep my $160 single plane (retail is $320, but I got mine on eBay)

gbayfisher

Yep, you're way ahead, not a bad intake for me too!

gbayfisher

Ecm swap to the ebl is done! I am going to give it a quick start tomorrow to make sure it works before i pull the intake.

Gunmetal's got me thinking bout that Victor E now! thx

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

If you do go that route, make sure you to with a good 4 barrel throttle body. I tried to cut costs in the throttle body area and it kinda bit me in the ****.

gbayfisher

Why would you say going with your TB and elbow was bad?

Unless you think it is restricted of course, other than that, it's only flowing air.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I don't think it flows the greatest, and there could be some air distribution issues. However, I think my biggest issue is the MAF and it's plumbing. I'm gonna see if I can't source my intake air from the wiper cowl area, and through a 14" open element filter sealed and insulated from the underhood air.

gbayfisher

Restriction from inlet to Maf, or maf to TB?

Do as i did , get rid of the maf, than you do what you want. I think your air intake idea is smart, I would like to see something like that.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

My intake tubing had a few too many 90* bends I think, I never got 4.5 volts from the MAF, which should be there at about 3-4k RPM, but I got a lot closer when I took the filter off took it for a run.
I'll be following you down the EBL road soon, but I hope to get floor pans done first. I have a couple projects going right now (LS1 brakes, front suspension rebuild with 90/10 struts, and the 4 barrel TB), but floor pans and EBL are next. I don't think I'll get to the rear end this winter.

gbayfisher

lol, It never ends.
I like your approach though, and you should have it ironed out in no time.

After this intake, and tuning i need to tie this thing up tighter, than on to diff.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you use the single plane and an 90 deg elbow, get the largest radius bend elbow you can fit. It helps to have a cowl hood here Smooth transition to the intake plenum makes best power. A tight 90 elbow will hurt power.

the 4 bbl MPFI styles are nice since there are no bends

gbayfisher

I just couldnt do a cowl on a trans am though! Its so funny how similar but different an iroc and trans am are. I feel the irocs looks good with hoods and some aftermarket rims. Trans ams beg to be left alone.

I have been trying to find out the total height of the Victor but can't anywhere? Dont know if the intake+TB+filter would fit under the hood.

Than another issue is if I decide to procharge. I would have to go back to elbow design. I just dont know atm.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

With a decent elbow, you can get the victor to be shorter than the stealth ram EfI intakes but have no idea what a MPFI + filter would be. Mine has a 3" rise and sits taller than stealth ram. I've seen an accel single plane EFI setup with low rise air filter in a C4 vette and it cleared their hood.

gbayfisher

I looked into it some more.

Currently, my FIRST set up sits at least 10 inches from block to top of manifold plenum. TB hits the insulation slightly at the very front where the hood takes a fast dive.

Victor E is fairly short ( surprisingly) 4.5 inch
Edelbrock 3878 TB (1000cfm top mount) 2.5 inch

Total of 7"- 7.25" with gaskets. Leaves more than 3 inches for filter. That's not even using a drop filter type, so could go more filter.

Looks like the top mount can provide more clearance than many elbows on the market.

I am really considering this set up atm. If I decide to procharge, i would have to find a 90degree top cover.

One problem with the Edelbrock 3878 is the iac motor, since it is a late model LS style. Not sure how this would work with the EBL or any early ecm unit. I believe the ls iac units are totally different in terms of step counts?
Have to look into it some more.

I know Gunmetal has an LS TB on his.....