gbayfisher

Man.... Crower and Jones take for ever to get back to a dude! Still waiting for a reply.
I've been doing a bit more research on cam selection and i think I'd like to try something similar to comps xfi grinds of 224/230 or one step up to the 230/236, both on a 113 or 114 grind. Through some research, i have noticed some guys complaining of heavy valve train noises, and lots of valve train stress/ware due to the big lift in the xfi type profiles.
My question is, do these high lift aggressive profile benefit me much, or can I get the same results in a xr series which employ the same type of duration numbers but utilize a lower lift value. Something in the the .510 range using 1.5 will give me .544 with 1.6 rockers, and .561 with 1.65.

What would be easier on the valvetrain, smaller lift bumped up with rockers, or high cam lift with smaller ratio rockers.
And would using the small lift cam and high ratio rockers lessen engine noise?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Did you try Bullet cams? Great service, great company.

gbayfisher

Not yet, I will call them in the morning.

Other dilema! Roller rockers for 7/16 studs non self guiding narrow body for stock centre bolt covers? I can only find one brand, crower.
Anyone know of other options? Don't really want to jump down to 3/8 stud but want to maintain factory covers.

Thx

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

2 things..... you don't NEED 7/16 studs, 3/8 is plenty

What's your hesitation with guide plates? They are cheap enough.

gbayfisher

I have guide plates, typo above, should have said non self aligning rockers.
My heads have the 7/16 studs so I was trying to keep the guides and studs that are already on the heads. My choice of narrow, non SA, 7/16 rockers is dismal, crower and $270 for only eight! I think I should run all 16?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm not in a position to look it up, however, sounds like you're looking at aluminum rockers, the trend today is toward steel. Look at Comp pro mags or similar. Stronger, lighter, better.

gbayfisher

the Crowers I saw were stainless steel. Looked up the mags from Comp and none in the narrow body style for centre bolt style. I"m going to keep looking, but pickins are slim!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Some of the higher lift cam profiles will accelerate the lifter much faster for a given duration. This will require a combination of more spring pressure or less valvetrain weight or a combination of both to control. They can be much more noisey in comparison. you can get a sewing machine sound at idle and lower rpms. LSx cams can be very aggressive and you can hear it in those motors.

Higher rpms some of the bigger duration cams will give you will need a fair amount of spring pressure and are alot harder on valve springs. Also require a good lifter. Morels are the best out from what I been reading, and I have ordered a set for my motor to possibly replace the LS7's i have been using with great success.

For a head that flows well to .600", i think your doing yourself a favor by getting lift that high as long as the intake can support the flow of the head.

Custom cam grinders will need to look at the complete lift curve of the cam lobe to determine the best fit for the application. My custom cam was abit over .600" lift and used comp cams high lift magnum lobes which are generally considered less aggressive lobes..but the higher lift lobes are much more aggressive since they move the lifter much faster than the standard lift magnum lobes. It offered good power to 6800 rpm and I had good valvetrain control.

This has been a debated topic it seems. I understand that higher ratio rockers have unique geometry and are more picky on cam lobe design and how you set up the valvetrain. I think its best to run more lobe lift and use less rocker. They make custom lobes for use with higher ratio rockers for a reason, and it has to do with valvetrain geometry of the pushrod/rocker/valvespring.
I do know cams that have high lift and require lots of spring pressure to control are tougher on springs than cam lobes that are abit more gentle off the seat and thru the lift range.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

All this talk about valve trains....here's a few thoughts.

Use the LS7 roller lifters are more than adequate for what you're doing. Hell, I'm running them in my SBC 427. Like injectors, valves, lifters are made only in a few factories around the world. These are $125 a set and will provide everything you need. Use your existing spider and go.

Second, rocker ratio. The higher the ratio the quicker your response time is going to be. It ramps up past low lift faster. 1.6 is actually old school at this point, many people are running 1.7,1.8, 1.9. The read advantage is it moves you through low lift faster and takes you to more lift sooner.

As to springs and stuff....eh... there's not going to be a world of difference between these components you're worried about, and valve float isn't going to be a real issue unless you start approaching 7000 RPM. Your cam will drop power before valve float is an issue.

Again, talk to the cam manufacturer. Tell them what you want, how you want the car to run. What rocker ratio you plan on using. If Crower is unresponsive, talk to Bullet.

As to your valve cover issue, maybe you'll have to get off the centerbolt valve covers and go with a perimeter bolt. Not the end of the world.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

How did you contact jones? Did you call him or did you go to another forum and ask him?

Try speedtalk.com and PM him on that message board. He is CamKing on that board.
Also try chevelles.com and PM UDHarold---designed cams for lunati and founded UltraDyne cams which was pretty big. My buddy runs a cam from him in his AFr 210cc/406 minram motor and he runs 10.6's at 130 on motor alone. 9.8's on some spray at over 141mph.

Could also give bret bauer a ring. He did my 383 cam and it was awesome. Different than what most gave but it was awesome and did what i wanted it to do. www.bauer-racing.com

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

EXACTLY! That's why I say talk to the experts. They know! Different, and better. Better because they know their stuff. Now that's what I'm talking about.

gbayfisher

I left a message with Jones, never get an answer but I'll keep trying. Iwill try the others also.

Thx.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I mean different as far as what other cam experts gave. I had an idea of the cam I wanted to run but I ran it past bret to see his opinion. Most of the setups I had researched were LT1 383 strokers. I figured with slightly longer runner length, maybe the cam overlap and some valve events would change slightly but did not expect it to come out the way it did. His LT1 grinds were 4 deg split 107-108lsa cams, with same/similar intake duration. LE3 LT1 grinds were in the 238/242 range So I was expecting similar ...236/240 or so and so did other cam grinders. It came back 230/245 Again not what I was expecting based on his previous work and not what other cam grinders recommended, but it worked well for the goals I had...run like a C5z06 on motor, like a C6Z06 on spray. I was just shocked the LT1 intakes were so different than the HSR intake, as the rest of the motor was same as most LT1 383's

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Give them as much information as possible as I'm sure you know. It will make it easier for them to get a cam spec'd for you.

Type of cam desired (hyd roller, solid roller, retrofit or oem capable? etc)
heads, intake, compression, cubes being used.
intake flow of heads at all lifts if possible, valve sizes, spring rates if using a spring you already have and ask for recommendations if need new springs, runner length of intake manifold, TB flow/size, desired rpm range for peak torque/hp, exhaust type, header information from tube size/primary length/collector size, etc.

car weight/auto or manual trans, converter stall if known already but usually not, gearing if known but usually not.

More details the better.

Build the engine and then set the car up around the motor. Gearing/converter spec'd to the motors performance, etc.

gbayfisher

Does Bauer cut his own cams or does he bring them in from elsewhere?
I have all my info ready to go.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

He specs his own grinds, but has others cut the cam. Not sure who all he uses, but mine came from comp cams. Lobes were almost exactly like the magnum high lift lobes in comp's catalog.
Thing about Bret is he wont give you specs of the cam unless you buy it. Not a big deal since it will get the job done.

Doom86

I can see why everyone hits the "Easy Button" with comp cams. Just sayin, you shouldn't have to pull strings to get a camshaft.

The LSr style grinds have super aggressive lobes and I'd wager the custom FI lobe you get is a lot like them.

IMO the best way to "steal their thunder" would be using a solid roller.

Stainless rockers look like the way to go but you are right gbayfisher the pickings are slim. I took a chance with ProComp stainless I'll let you know if I ever have a pushrod or two hanging out of my hood.

gsf-87IROC

I've run standard run of the mill Comp Pro Mag 1.6s for years. Not narrow body. You just have to 'smash' the baffle down a bit in the valvecovers. Nothing a pair of channel locks won't take care of. I use non-self aligning with the 7/16 stud.

I saw that on the XFI grinds that the valve train was sometimes an issue. I opted for the older Extreme Energy series to get away from it. I've turned my engine to 6k rpm a few times and it hasn't floated and I'm not running anything super-light for valves.

On the lifters, I'm running the LS7s. Cheap from Summit. 130 bucks or so for the set. They are a bit noisy. I had to run the valves a second time after firing the engine. Look around for what people recommend for the lash setting(past 0 lash). I always went 0.5 turns past 0 lash in the past. Think I took these to 1 turn now...but I don't recall.

gbayfisher

Lol, lets not put anything through the hood!How many miles on the prcomps?
` I hear you on the easy button for comp, got a hold of Bullet today, I 'll dig it out and post.


Looks like many are running those lifters....Read many personal preferences of lash settings past 0, I have seen everywhere from .5 to almost 2, seems many are chasing their tails!

thx

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I got specs on a good mild but powerful 383 HSR cam used by Wishmaster. Done by Cammotion I believe. It was round 226/232 on a 112 or 113. His car was in the mid high 11's at over 115-116

gsf-87IROC

As I've said in prior posts, I contacted Lunati about their 'Voodoo' cam profiles and they offered a custom grind in the 227/233 range(somewhere right in there). If I had it to do over, I'd go that route. What Orr is saying would be a great intermediate cam as well between my 'stump puller' and the 230/236 cam.

gbayfisher

Stout numbers on the hsr! Did he 60ft low and fall off abit on top?

That voodoo profile sounds like its in the pocket!

gsf-87IROC

Voodoo offers the 'cool' name...Orr is talking about some custom grind from someone else...

Lunati I would call, if you email it will take them a month to respond...which is why I didn't go with them. I got rammy and didn't want to wait.

gbayfisher

messed up on the multi quote> first reply was for orrs post!

i'll give Lunati a call

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Lunati is Comp. Same tech guys, same company.

gsf-87IROC

Cool, didn't know that. I'd definitely give them a call. Comp could probably dredge up a similar cam profile in their XE or XFI line if you wanted a comp as opposed ot a Lunati cam.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

You would be SHOCKED to learn how incestuous this industry is. Lifters are made in only a couple factories. Castings are done in a handful of foundries. Valves are in 3 factories around the world..

It's not as diverse as many people think. Many times, you're paying for labels, but it's hard to convince people of that.

gbayfisher

This not only happens in the auto industry!

Power tool industry is also shrinking, along with home electronics. Its the 'NEW" small world we live in!

As long as the day never comes that when I buy a GM I am really buying a Toyota! lol

OH shiza.... already happened with the Matrix and Vibe!

gsf-87IROC

Wife and I bought a Vibe in late 03. Got 190k trouble free miles out of it...sure couldn't complain. Of course, during the recall, I confirmed it had a cable actuated throttle.

On the consolidation...I knew Federal Mogul sucked up a lot of smaller companies. I assume Comp sucked up Lunati. If you look at front suspension components....they're all made by the same company almost unless it comes out of China. Moog, Dana, and Federal Mogul(I believe) all use the same p/n components. Moog still has their 'ultra' idler arm though.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...-1-8-pass.html

1.7 60 foot with a 7.7 at 92mph 1/8 mile. My 383 did 7.31 at 93.5 mph on a 1.55 60 foot. Thats 11.47 at 118.5mph.

He drops that 60 foot down where it should be, and he'd be an easy 7.5's car and thats a mid high 11 second pass at 115-116mph. It has strong powerband all over. Good top end with HSR and that cam
Voodoo cams are good grinds. I think they were developed by Harold from ultradyne. Great cam guy. That 227/233 voodoo wouldnt be a bad choice for a first TPI or HSR setup. Not a super high revving setup but potent enough for 11's

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Pat Musi built my engine, arguably one of the top builders in the world.

He ordered LS7 lifters that said "GM PERFORMANCE" $500 and change.

I told him no Pat, try this part number. $125. From AC Delco.

Even he admitted he couldn't tell them apart...

There's so much hype in this business...

gbayfisher

Classic case! buyer beware!

gbayfisher

That is a potent set up, be interesting to see if the first can handle it. I might try it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You sure he didnt order the caddy race lifters by accident? Even they are not 500 bucks but double the price of LS7's and suppose to be for 8500 rpm. My thoughts are if you turn that high, its time for solid roller. You will make more power. So I dont see the use for them.

Doom86

Zero miles I should have it together in the next month or so though. Since it's a basically a "Banzai" 305 we'll see if the rockers can handle some revs.

I am interested to see what cam bullet suggest since it seems most of us are saying about the same.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

i dont understand why you cant get in touch with mike, i just emailed him the other day and got a response back within 1 hour time, he forgot to put my cam card in the cam box i got from him. If you want his email i can provide that for ya, or do what orr said, go on speedtalk

gbayfisher

If you dont mind pm it to me. What does he typically charge for his cams?


Bullet came back at a 218/226 on a 112 .525/.525 using 1.6 rr, for a 2-2200 stall and 3.23 gears.


He'd really like to see 2400-2800 stall and a 3..73 gear to get a
226/234 on 112 and .565 using 1.6.

pretty close to what most guys recommended. The difference is going to be the detail in the little things.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Something like that with 2800 stall would be awesome. Not far off what wishmaster87 had

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like good advice. Those guys are good. I like the 226 reccomendation.

Where did he say that would put your power?

gbayfisher

1900-6000 range, peak at 5400-ish with good pull to 6000 plus assuming good tune, supporting components, etc.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

My Custom Grind came out to be 330ish

gbayfisher

Thats pretty reasonable!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"My Custom Grind came out to be 330ish"

That is more in line of what I was thinking and if a good exhaust system a single pattern cam. With AFR 195 Eliminators I would be looking for peak lift of around .570". With the AFR 195 Competition heads I would be looking for peak lift of around .600".

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

Not sure if cams are different from FI and carb, but your dead on with the lift numbers, thats excactly where mike put mine at with 1.52 rockers, running a carb

gbayfisher

Got a hold of Mike Jones today. Very nice guy and knows his $hit!

We went through the build today and he spec'd me a cam. I am going to email him all the exact flow rates and anything else I can find. Just to make sure and finalize everything.

So far looks like it'll be in the range of;

224-227 intake depending on rockers,
exhaust duration will be very close if not equal to intake ,

lift in the .550-.565 range
112- lsa ( I am trying to talk him into a 113, hehe!

looking for around a 5800 peak, and running 2400-2800 stall.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looks good. Leave it on a 112, it will be fine

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes he does. We have 3 cars running with his cams and they have been right on. A 4th car is waiting for the motor to be dropped in. I would lean towards the 227 and the .565" lift. I had one of his 228/228 .570" lift cams in my 355 and it ran good and idled very nicely. Sold that motor and now have a 368 SBC with Mikes 233/233 cams. Going on the dyno Saturday. This one also idles quite well.

gbayfisher

Sounds good, I'd be interested to see the results.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

That sounds very reasonable. A bit mild for my taste, but better than the 5300 peak we talked about earlier in this thread.

gbayfisher

Lol...
I knew you'd say that. Funny, i am just getting the email out to him with all my specs, I am going to talk to him in the morning about the second choice we discussed briefly.
Do you have the pricing on the First intake?