'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
07-15-2011, 04:53 PM
#401
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Lots of power is made or lost in the spark advance. Just a thought. Are you still seeing a bunch of spark pulled due to knock? After I swapped in my headers, my knock counts went up a bunch, but I've never seen a hint of detonation on my plugs. I'm pushing 37-38* with no signs of detonation except for the knock count.
It also would not cause it to die off so quickly at 5k.
I am also having an issue in my 1-2 shift at WOT, wants to hang until 6300- ish before shifting, way late! i need to go for another drive and check it again. May need to look at the govenor.
Modding cars is too emotional, one moment you love it, next your ready to burn the heap!
Last edited by gbayfisher; 07-15-2011 at 08:10 PM. Reason: * forgot to mention, yes it still pulls timing, lots of kock counts. we played with the attack rate to slow it down some.
07-15-2011, 09:28 PM
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
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Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Tomorrow morning i will be data logging some runs, I need to hook up my WB again.
I made a few more runs today and I am not happy, I think i will turn the knock sensor completely off tomorrow. Wish me luck!
Last edited by gbayfisher; 07-15-2011 at 09:33 PM.
07-15-2011, 11:14 PM
#406
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Hmmmm that all sounds good except for the single catalytic converter. I would have preferred two but I don't think that is you immediate problem. With that camshaft and heads you should be making peak power in the high 5000's. You obviously have an air restriction somewhere. Is the throttle blade opening up all the way?
07-15-2011, 11:26 PM
#407
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Probably did, it usually breaks out hard into second just messing around, I have yet to let it go wot into second, should be fun when I can!
I will tel you, I LOVE the Pro built trans street/ strip kit, with the 2600 vigilante, the trans feels world class now instead of feeling like its full of bubble gum. Props to Dana from pro built!
Burlington, I think you're in Barrie?
I will tel you, I LOVE the Pro built trans street/ strip kit, with the 2600 vigilante, the trans feels world class now instead of feeling like its full of bubble gum. Props to Dana from pro built!
Burlington, I think you're in Barrie?
07-15-2011, 11:29 PM
#408
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Update.
Finally went in for some dyno time.
Good news and bad news!
Good news: Motor held together, we did no less than 15 hard pulls and nothing broke! I am confident that the motor and trans will work well for some time.
Bad news:
We could get no more than 310hp to my back tires
final tune:
310 hp @ 4850 rpm
390lbs@ 4100 rpm
motor WOULD not make power/climb past 5000, and fell off fast from that point!! We pulled to 6000ish a few times but were fruitless in attempt.
Atm, not sure what to make of it. I have many variables at play here and need to start somewhere.
A few concerns, from the top:
my original build and dyno on a carb and cranked to 512 @ 5500 and 499ft/lbs @5000. Assuming these numbers are not a lie, I may be leaving close to 80hp rwhp on the table.
Now, some crank dynos have been known to be a little 'optimistic' Lets say my engine puts out a true 475hp at the crank (sounds more realistic),
This should equate to approximately 350 rwhp, that means i am still over 40hp shy! I paid good money for that 40 hp, I need to find it!!
Peak rpm is very low, I am leaving at least 6-700 power building rpms on the table, why is it quiting at 4800rpm is the big question.
I think if i can get it to peak back up to the 5500 rpm area, I will get my 40hp back and some.
I talked to Ken at FIRST, and he is baffled as well, he did mention that he has seen good tuners get 50-60 hidden hp out of combos, i dont know if i have that much in my tune to pull out. Unless i can find a restriction somewhere in the intake tract, i dont know how i can get more out of it when my Afr's are perfect 13:1 across the power band under wot.
He knows the stock First should pull past 5000 with out issues, the intake has also dynoed at higher than my 310 rwhp, so it is capable.
I need to get out and data log some runs to try and find what may be up, but I have been busy with business and had to fix a header leak that accured on the last few dyno pulls. its fixed now and i will do some runs tonight.
My thoughts are:
1- my engine really only puts out 400hp crank horsepower and my builders dyno is wrong
2- my current tune is limiting my output
3- the FIRST intake as delivered is restricting my heads and cam from its true power peak.
Ken is sending me some new runners for experimenting (regardless of what happens), I want to open the runners and plenum to 1.9 inch versus the stock 1.8, and i also want to siamese the other set to see what that does tp peak rpm. If the intake is the limiting factor, i want to find out.
Stay tuned!
Sorry for the long post!
Finally went in for some dyno time.
Good news and bad news!
Good news: Motor held together, we did no less than 15 hard pulls and nothing broke! I am confident that the motor and trans will work well for some time.
Bad news:
We could get no more than 310hp to my back tires
final tune:310 hp @ 4850 rpm
390lbs@ 4100 rpm
motor WOULD not make power/climb past 5000, and fell off fast from that point!! We pulled to 6000ish a few times but were fruitless in attempt.
Atm, not sure what to make of it. I have many variables at play here and need to start somewhere.
A few concerns, from the top:
my original build and dyno on a carb and cranked to 512 @ 5500 and 499ft/lbs @5000. Assuming these numbers are not a lie, I may be leaving close to 80hp rwhp on the table.
Now, some crank dynos have been known to be a little 'optimistic' Lets say my engine puts out a true 475hp at the crank (sounds more realistic),
This should equate to approximately 350 rwhp, that means i am still over 40hp shy! I paid good money for that 40 hp, I need to find it!!
Peak rpm is very low, I am leaving at least 6-700 power building rpms on the table, why is it quiting at 4800rpm is the big question.
I think if i can get it to peak back up to the 5500 rpm area, I will get my 40hp back and some.
I talked to Ken at FIRST, and he is baffled as well, he did mention that he has seen good tuners get 50-60 hidden hp out of combos, i dont know if i have that much in my tune to pull out. Unless i can find a restriction somewhere in the intake tract, i dont know how i can get more out of it when my Afr's are perfect 13:1 across the power band under wot.
He knows the stock First should pull past 5000 with out issues, the intake has also dynoed at higher than my 310 rwhp, so it is capable.
I need to get out and data log some runs to try and find what may be up, but I have been busy with business and had to fix a header leak that accured on the last few dyno pulls. its fixed now and i will do some runs tonight.
My thoughts are:
1- my engine really only puts out 400hp crank horsepower and my builders dyno is wrong
2- my current tune is limiting my output
3- the FIRST intake as delivered is restricting my heads and cam from its true power peak.
Ken is sending me some new runners for experimenting (regardless of what happens), I want to open the runners and plenum to 1.9 inch versus the stock 1.8, and i also want to siamese the other set to see what that does tp peak rpm. If the intake is the limiting factor, i want to find out.
Stay tuned!
Sorry for the long post!
07-15-2011, 11:29 PM
#409
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Hmmmm that all sounds good except for the single catalytic converter. I would have preferred two but I don't think that is you immediate problem. With that camshaft and heads you should be making peak power in the high 5000's. You obviously have an air restriction somewhere. Is the throttle blade opening up all the way?
yes, blades opening well, tps reading high 4, restriction before the maf is unlikely, through the intake is possible. The engine peaked at 5500 on carb, so i would assume the same with the FIRST, now whether or not it needs opening up to hit 5500 , i dont know, I should think not but it is a long runner.
07-16-2011, 12:06 AM
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Car: 87 IROC
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Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
I have a question, or comment: I've been told that the MAF cars are limited to around 300 horses due to the MAF. And I've seen info in this forum indicating that problem is the 8 bit computer not the sensor itself. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...nce-again.html (post 13 and on)
Is it true?
I would love for this not to be true because I have a MAF car,... but it seems to make sense.
Is it true?
I would love for this not to be true because I have a MAF car,... but it seems to make sense.
07-16-2011, 07:44 AM
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
I have a question, or comment: I've been told that the MAF cars are limited to around 300 horses due to the MAF. And I've seen info in this forum indicating that problem is the 8 bit computer not the sensor itself. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...nce-again.html (post 13 and on)
Is it true?
I would love for this not to be true because I have a MAF car,... but it seems to make sense.
Is it true?
I would love for this not to be true because I have a MAF car,... but it seems to make sense.
Last edited by gbayfisher; 07-16-2011 at 04:41 PM.
07-16-2011, 10:21 PM
#415
07-17-2011, 12:51 PM
#417
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
I have not reserved it yet, but it will be on a Sunday in either August or latest Sept. I forget the name off the top, but its a new dynojet. I am curious if I can crack 450rwhp or not.....
07-18-2011, 02:31 PM
#419
07-18-2011, 08:54 PM
#421
07-18-2011, 09:03 PM
#423
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
07-18-2011, 10:08 PM
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
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Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
07-18-2011, 10:27 PM
#427
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
If they make good power then those heads are the bomb. I am allready thinking of some 220's in the future, but if I can trap 125-126 with the small heads then I'll keep em. Car f e e l s like it has it........
07-18-2011, 11:07 PM
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
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Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
07-19-2011, 01:14 PM
#430
07-20-2011, 12:09 PM
#431
07-20-2011, 10:55 PM
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
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Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
It will be nice to see what comes out of the 195, and more so the difference with the 220's. I think you have the 'biggest' combo in a naturally aspirated engine using the 195 that I have seen! It will be a true test on the capabilities of the 195's.
Are you going to do any track testing before the dyno runs?
07-21-2011, 07:00 AM
#434
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Dont lie, you wont keep them! How will you ever know the true potential of your combo? lol
It will be nice to see what comes out of the 195, and more so the difference with the 220's. I think you have the 'biggest' combo in a naturally aspirated engine using the 195 that I have seen! It will be a true test on the capabilities of the 195's.
Are you going to do any track testing before the dyno runs?
It will be nice to see what comes out of the 195, and more so the difference with the 220's. I think you have the 'biggest' combo in a naturally aspirated engine using the 195 that I have seen! It will be a true test on the capabilities of the 195's.
Are you going to do any track testing before the dyno runs?
You are going to want the 195 comp ports to see your true potential as well.....
07-25-2011, 11:32 PM
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
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Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
I am!I dont think the "First' in stock form will let me. On the dyno, the engine quit at just under 5k, no where near what i need to make the hp I made on a carb, and even farther to max out the 195's. As of now, I have the car going back into the exhaust shop tomorrow a.m for a dual cat setup, new runners are also on the way. I want to open up the runners and plenum to a 1.9 dia..and go from there, perhaps a few inches of siamesing at the upper portion of the runner?
Last edited by gbayfisher; 07-26-2011 at 05:57 AM.
07-26-2011, 04:58 PM
#438
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
I havent followed the recent postings Gbayfisher, but what was causing the motor to peak so early? Is it the FIRST?? Or is there a tune issue with the electronics vs the carb which allowed it to make the power and rpm it did with the carb?
07-26-2011, 06:53 PM
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
I thought it may have been some high rpm ignition breakdown ( you would think if there was any, I would have noticed it as such?) On the street I would feel something happening, I cant say if it did it on the dyno since i was not in the seat (should have been). Converter locking also created a bog, but different than the higher rpm breakdown. Since changing the coil, it feels good, unhooked the converter and now have NO bogging up to 6400 rpm where the tranny wants to shift, keeping fingers crossed!
I am trying to resolve the shifting issue and have some new weights coming tomorrow, 6400 is way late for this power band, I usually let off to get the shift in earlier but wanted to test the engine up high and to make certain the trans consistently shifts late.
I can not say for sure if the First is holding me back, seemed like it was on the dyno, but since that day i feel the car is much stronger with my own tuning. I let the dyno/tuner start from a new tune to see what he would pull out of it, so far.. much less than me. A lack of interest in tuning obd1 and 165/mafs leaves a lot to be desired with local tuners. I called him on it, and he will give me a few more hours on the machine, I will let him control the Dyno while I work the tune.
I also feel the single Cat was holding back some high rpms even if just a little.
Perhaps now with no converter lock up, better tune, dual cats, I might see some higher numbers?
Ken at FIRST feels it should pull to 5500 with no loss, so I may give it the benefit of the doubt for now in stock form, dyno it again next week with a better tune and new cats, than do the porting and test again on dyno.
Ken also mentioned that in this power range he thinks it should be opened up to 1.9.
It would be interesting to see the progression of the porting work through hp numbers, but I don't think i am that patient!
07-26-2011, 06:59 PM
#441
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
"I also feel the single Cat was holding back"
IMHO going to dual cats is a step in the right direction. From my personal experience the exhaust can kill motor. Try to make sure whoever is doing your exhaust is doing a quality job. Good joints, no down sizing on the pipe diameter and so on. You need a good free flowing system.
IMHO going to dual cats is a step in the right direction. From my personal experience the exhaust can kill motor. Try to make sure whoever is doing your exhaust is doing a quality job. Good joints, no down sizing on the pipe diameter and so on. You need a good free flowing system.
07-26-2011, 07:07 PM
#442
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
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Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
.. Im running AFR 235s and a solid roller.. I have it out and apart now checking some things (crower hipo roller lifter issues)out hope 2 have it back together soon
07-26-2011, 09:28 PM
#443
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Keeping converter locked on the dyno will show more hp/tq so i'd do that to tune everything. Some converters dont recommend lockup at WOT tho, so be careful. My edge racing converter was fine with lockup at WOT.
07-27-2011, 05:51 PM
#445
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
"perhaps a few inches of siamesing at the upper portion of the runner?"
Lets wait and see how long the new runners are. Near as I can tell the AFR heads are about 5.333" long. The First intake base is about 7.625" long. The gaskets are .060" thick. One thing you will want to do is make sure you have is a nice radius inlet in the plenum to the runners and a smooth transition to the runners. I agree on the 1.9" diameter runners.
Lets wait and see how long the new runners are. Near as I can tell the AFR heads are about 5.333" long. The First intake base is about 7.625" long. The gaskets are .060" thick. One thing you will want to do is make sure you have is a nice radius inlet in the plenum to the runners and a smooth transition to the runners. I agree on the 1.9" diameter runners.
07-27-2011, 08:02 PM
#446
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Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
"perhaps a few inches of siamesing at the upper portion of the runner?"
Lets wait and see how long the new runners are. Near as I can tell the AFR heads are about 5.333" long. The First intake base is about 7.625" long. The gaskets are .060" thick. One thing you will want to do is make sure you have is a nice radius inlet in the plenum to the runners and a smooth transition to the runners. I agree on the 1.9" diameter runners.
Lets wait and see how long the new runners are. Near as I can tell the AFR heads are about 5.333" long. The First intake base is about 7.625" long. The gaskets are .060" thick. One thing you will want to do is make sure you have is a nice radius inlet in the plenum to the runners and a smooth transition to the runners. I agree on the 1.9" diameter runners.
Dual Cat is on.
I really like the change so far, sound has a better tone to it, and better still, I think there is more snap to the engine with the duals!
Last edited by gbayfisher; 07-27-2011 at 08:32 PM.
He has a few parts ready to go on soon, it wil be fun to see how it turns out.
07-30-2011, 02:53 PM
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Re: 'FIRST'intake afr 195 383 tpi build.
Finally fixed the converter issue. Happened to be that my new valve body had the wrong 4th gear no/nc switch, with the help of others I flipped the setting in the tune. It works well now, I get no lock up until 4 gear at around 50mph.
Last edited by gbayfisher; 08-01-2011 at 03:15 PM.