mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Maybe I should go down the route of different GM engines. Not Chevrolet try Pontiac, Buick or Oldsmobile.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

i know a guy with a 455 old, another with a 455 pontiac motor in their cars. one tried a caddy 500 and that didnt work out well. not to sound like anyones going back on their word but sbc is practically top of the line for gm. yes pontiac and olds and buicks can put out but it take a bit more work, time and money to do so from my understandings

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I don't know some of the stock Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick motors were pretty mean.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I have seen 472 SBCs before. ;-)
If your going to spend the money 4 custom parts go with a SBC 396. You'll like it waaay more than the 302.

Yeah, the OLD BOP motors were good but GM wouldn't really let them do much performance(rpm building HP).

Do some poking around on the sites for those motors, Power wise, sky is the limit these days.

The 500ci Caddy motor is about the same weight as a sbc350. HorsePower just built a mild one today that made 600x600 HP an TQ at 6k rpm. Pump gas.

I'm a old Pontiac guy that has a build coming for my 70 bird. Should be wicked..

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Yeah so if I could get a Caddy 500 or Oldsmobile 455 for the same price of a Chevy small block. Why even mess with a small block when I could use the stock parts from a 455 or 500 and get the same power for a lot less?

Apeiron

Try finding one for the price of a SBC first.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Around here you can just trade a Chevy 350 for a Buick, Oldsmobile or Pontiac motor, but not Cadillac motors.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

try getting a caddy 500 to easily fit. they arent necessarily high performance engines either

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

It was a stock block, nothing else was stock. It is more costly to "build" a BOP than a SBC but really not by much.

A caddy motor is about the same size and weight of a SBC.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I know but what I am saying is I could get 300+HP and 400+ pounds of torque out of a big Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Pontiac or Buick motor with stock parts.

UnstableAviator

Was top of the line for GM. I believe the LSX series is king of the hill now for street performance. There's thousands of head/cam 346 LS1's out there putting down 420+ rwhp/400tq and running low 11's at over 120mph. They're still just costly to get into, but the dollar per horsepower ratio is still pretty good.

Apeiron

And still have all the fun of putting it into a platform that was never designed to take it.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Exactly.

85T/A350

You have been given the information you were looking for. No one here really believes any of this will happen, especially coming from a 16 year old who just learned to drive a Saturn. Take what you have learned and prove us wrong.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if thats all u could get out of one of those motors u better look for something else

my little turbocharged 3.1 v6 camaro makes more power then that,everything in the motor is stock except for the camshaft

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

the thing with olds, pontiac, caddy, and buick motors in big cubes is that they are plentiful in torque. if you get as much hp as there are cubes from a big block pontiac, buick, olds, caddy motor then youll be looking into strengthing your frame quite a bit

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I will soon as I have the money.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Give us a call back in five years then

Pontiac_heaven

Yes I got a eaton posi unit I put in the rear and X brace subframe connectors that I beefed up and welded in for the 403, after strengthening the widowed mains, head work, new cam, X braces and eaton posi unit I put out 450 Hp and spent about 2000 without looking at the reciepts. that there was cheaper than the 302 I have and its a HELL of ALOT more fun to drive too!

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

pontiac buick and olds dont have an lsx series so i was reffering to gen 1 engines and such

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Dude just put an International harvester combine engine in it then turbo it and put nitrous on it. Way more totally awesome than anything suggested.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

My dad has 2 International trucks with 7.3L Diesels in them. I'll have to ask him if I can take the engines out of one. haha

91 Droptop

I will be putting a 302 in the 69 vert I just purchased, but that is because that year it was a DZ coded car, I already have the date correct block and heads. I have never thought of doing that in a modern car, while being unpractical it would be kind of cool to do one.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

I agree with it definitely being cool, but is it really that unpractical? Yes the idea of shorter stroke meaning it spins higher rpms will make it unpractical, but in the end isn't it still a large bore v8 that will make good torque for street use no matter how bad the build? Which means if he does do this (which I hope he does) and builds it right, I think we might all be surprised on how streetable this car can be... But of course the one limiting factor, $$:hp ratio, so yes, while it is unpractical, I guess the way it's built decided it all, I say go for it

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

He claims he wants to duplicate the mega Hp DZ302 engine which due to the cam required to make said Hp was a pig below 4K with no torque.

"Four-barrel 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28s could run the quarter mile in 14.8 seconds at 101 mph, but the 302's shortage of low-end torque was multiplied with the dual-quads, which fed on sky-high revs.

Even dropping the clutch at 4000 rpm produced stumble off the line".

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Then yes, in that respect it is unpractical, I'm just saying it could be built as a streetable car

91 Droptop

It was an iconic motor, I will put it in the 69 but like I said it would make a cool resto-rod on say an 89 Camaro with the SS stripes

NathanLewis

No replacement for displacement. Do a 383 stroker.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

dont do a 383 stroker they are a pain in the ***

85T/A350

Care to elaborate? Quite a few of them on here and not many complaints from what I've seen.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I honestly think the no replacement for displacement argument is outdated now because of turbo chargers and super chargers

85T/A350

Then what happens when you turbo/supercharge a larger displacement engine?

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

There is a bigger upgrade in performance but what I am saying is a smaller engine with a turbo or superchager can make more power than a larger engine without one.

Apeiron

Boost is displacement in a different form.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Well I guess that is kind of true because you are forcing more cubic inches or air into your engine.

Apeiron

Exactly, power is how many air molecules you move through an engine in a given time.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

have to grind rods, the block, just a pain

92RS4US

Bottom line in building any engine is cost. 350's and 383's are cost effective to build today. The whole reason for the 383 is the bad bad rep the 400 got. Cracked blocks, cracked heads,overheating, core shift causing cams to go flat...sticking a 400 crank in a 350 you get the best of both worlds. You can't go wrong with a proven combo. The flip side is yes seems everybody has either a 383 or has switched to an LS style engine. Like the article about the 302 the only issue is finding a 3" stroke crank and using bearing spacers. I'm not sure if you can buy a brand new large journal 3" crank but that's the direction you're looking at. IMO nothing wrong with building what you want with what you got. Think of it this way, if money is the sole issue the only thing you're gonna lose out on is the price of getting the crank and pistons. Everything else you can reuse on another project. In that article that little motor made over 570hp, the power band is smooth and peak torque and HP is in the upper RPM's vs a 350 and up engines. That being said, with the right gear trans and converter that thing will run. Doing a BOP engine or a caddy engine the price tag goes up. You're young and eager and it's nice to see that, but just remember to respect and keep and open mind when us old farts give you advice cuz we've been there and done that. Good luck...

Apeiron

Sure if you're going to stick with only ever using factory parts you'll never have to worry about clearance, but it's a critical part of building an engine of any displacement with aftermarket parts. With some rods it's necessary to clearance the oil pan rails even on a 350 with stock stroke.

Clearancing is only an incremental increase on the overall pain of engine building.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Thanks. This engine if I decide I am going to build it will probably happen in the fall. For right now I am worried about getting my Camaro painted. My dad said he would memorial day weekend, which I am praying he actually does. haha I usually just do things on my own but I can't paint and don't want to try with my $600 of paint and primer. Then after that me and my dad are going to turn his International into a car hauler, but then I should have time to build this engine.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

i have stock rods. the stroke of the crank made the pistons hit the camshaft

Apeiron

I hope you mean it made the rods hit the camshaft.

But in any case, you're not using a factory combination of parts. Any time you do something the factory didn't, or use aftermarket parts, you have to check clearances.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

yes thats what i meant, i couldnt produce a clear thought today if i tried. i wish i knew that to begin with. im just glad i didnt put the timing chain on try to start it and end up with massive carnage

Apeiron

Fortunately there's not too much chance of that, you wouldn't have been able to turn it over to get all the pistons in.

It's pretty common to have to assemble and disassemble the short block a number of times while checking various clearance issues.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

i checked almost all except cam to rod clearances on the cranks upstroke. it completely slipped my mind because i never thought it would hit in the first place. im glad i caught it before i put it back in the truck though

Vega

Ok, here i go with another post on this topic haha. No one engine build is ever "the best" the reason people build the motors they do for performance is to make it the most cost effective for the use intended and there are several factors that go into that. First, what vehicle is it going into? If its a 3rd gen then it would most easily take a small block Chevy, and right now the king of the hill for small block chevys as far as cost effective-ness is the 383. However, some people dont like doing something everyone and their brother has done already (myself included) so a 302 would be something id consider. Hell 305s make near the same power part-for-part as 350s so a 302 should be right up there too.

Now as for the BOP motors, thatd be a much better choice if your vehicle was a cutlass or skylark or 2nd gen Firebird. Also most people dont know just how durable these motors are. Chevy guys will say they're weak because theyre 2-bolts and they've built Chevys their whole life and in the world of Chevrolet 2-bolt = weak. Not so in the BOP world. The BOP motors are stronger than Chevys, they dont need girdles or any of that fancy stuff until you go above 500hp/600tq. If someone tells you they do theyre either mis-informed or trying to sell you something. Also for what its worth i know someone near me running a Poncho 455 in a 79' T/A with T-tops and he's never needed any braces or supports or any of that, his car handles it just fine. I like Olds cause nobodys doing it right now. Everyones obsessed with chevys and yes theyre fun, and cheap, and theres an abundance of info out there, but its just cool to have something nobody else has. Especially when every single person on earth owns at least 2 350 Chevys. On a side note, every brand made a 350, and every single one of them is completely different. If i had to pick favorites the Buick is by far the best but the chevy is by far the cheapest. Its not hard at all to make 1hp per cubic inch anymore no matter what motor you use, just some may take a little more money than others. BOP motors are actually a lot cheaper to build than most think, sure the aftermarket parts are more expensive than Chevy but you dont have to do any extra strengthening to the block or rods or any of that, all of the stock parts work and are very durable in high performance applications. Im not trying to dog chevy, they have the price game down 100%, Chevy is the cheapest game in town. But BOP motors can be built to be just as good (or better in my oppinion) for the same price if you know what youre doing. Most of them dont rev as high as chevys but they dont have too. They make more torque down low, which equals more horsepower earlier, which means the same amount of horsepower but at a lower RPM so no need to wind it up higher. Also less RPM means less wear and tear on parts. As a general rule of thumb as far as the aftermarket goes Chevy is cheapest to buy new, BOP is a bit more expensive. However stock used parts are way more expensive to buy for Chevy while Buick and Olds is practicly dirt cheap right now, which is a good thing when their stock components will handle everything you intend to throw at them.

Really it comes down to the vehicle its going in. And if you dont have the vehicle yet it comes down to what you like best, what you know best, and how much youre willing to spend. Do what i did, find the motor you like best and use it (the only one i would NOT recommend is the Caddy, theyre amazing torque monsters but they have no aftermarket whatsoever. At least with Buick and Olds theres heads, intakes, and full rotating assemblies. Nothing of the sort for Caddy). Do your research, find what you want to build, and then find the motor and build it. Once its built then find the car it will best drop into (small block Buick will fit small block Buick, big block will fit big block, small block or big block Olds will fit any Olds vehicle and those few 2nd gen T/As sporting 403s, and Pontiacs swap just as easily as Olds into any vehicle set up for Pontiac. Chevy usually has the same problem as Buick, small block fits best in small block, big block in big block, some fit both but not all the time) the main thing is, dont mix and match cause it will get expensive. Dont put a Chevy in an Olds or a Buick in a Pontiac or a Cadillac in a Chevy. If you like naturally aspirated motors look into the Chevys, Olds, and Pontiacs. Lots of Buick guys boost their motors and see amazing results with it. Especially the Buick 350, a Buick 350 will take massive amounts of boost on stock internals and will happily ask you for more the next day. Boosted 455s are common too but I will caution you, building a 455 Buick is a very tedious time-consuming process with LOTS of steps and important details that are not to be overlooked. But the outcome can be pretty amazing. Just do your homework, find out what you want, research it to death, then when youre ready start buying and building the motor. Worry about the car once the motors done.

On a final note, maybe find a chevy 400 small block? People are so obsessed with 350s and 383s nobody really even thinks about the 400 anymore. Thatd be a very interesting retro-fit into a third gen! With a roller-cam swap and TPI itd be a beast.

Vega

Just a learning process, we all go through it eventually :P not all 383s are a headache of problems, just lots of little details you have to pay attention too during the build. Like i said though, just a learning process we've all gotta go there sometime haha

85T/A350

Have you seen the 305 hate on this forum? Most of which comes from facts and experience. I know there are some stout 305s around but building them part for part next to a 350 they will lose out quickly.

Vega

Yes ive seen the 305 hate on this forum. But ive owned and built 305s as well. I cant speak for other people's experiences but in my experience of driving a 2.70 gear 305 (my old 91' RS) and then a 2.70 gear 350 (my L98 Iroc) i can say that while, yes there is a torque difference, the final difference in performance really isnt all that much, its there yeah, but not a big leap of difference (especially with a 5-speed 305). Also from my own digging around on the internet it seems that supporters of the 350 are really pretty biased on anything else. No offense to anyone, but thats just what i see. Aside from my own personal experiences ive seen quite a few online builds including magazine builds which all reached the same horsepower level as an equivilant 350 just with 30 (give or take) less torque. I stand by my statement, a 305 will do nearly everything a 350 will do part-for-part.

Honestly i think most of the hate comes more from the TBI than the motor itself. It seems to me that people are pretty happy with their TPI 305s but i can agree that TBI is a giant load of ****, i hated everything about that set up and now that i have TPI im never looking back. However, its really just the TPI i love, the 350 is just an added bonus. Id gladly buy another 305 3rd gen as long as its a TPI car, but i'll never buy another throttle body