camarobird92

+1 on the valve covers... Those would be sweet on top of my motor.

DrummerDad

I talked to Jay, the guy Im working with on the shroud, and he said he would be willing to try a few parts. Cosmetic parts arent a big deal and Im more interested in something like a hood myself. And we are looking into maybe trying that. Hes a bit more ambitious, and said he would even do a door, but IDK about that. I say if we can make a hood work, doors wouldnt be that much harder.

Not trying to take away from jccaclimber, and he seems to have more experience at it. But Im really looking into trying a hood. The carbon would cost alot, and it would take alot of time to make a mold. If we can make that work, I dont see why I couldnt make a nose peice, or fenders. And a dash pad seems to be an interest of some.

If you are really interested in trying a dash pad, or whatever, PM me, and we will talk. Just keep it real. We cant build a body here. And I typically work 45-60 hrs a week.

DrummerDad

Update:

Okay, we have a few people really interested in some parts. And we are going to build some peices and see what you all think. Im guessing we will start with some interior door handle covers, and maybe an instrument panel cover, all for my car, a 1991 firebird. And maybe a shifter cover plate. Simple stuff for starters. But we are going to work toward a dash pad, and eventually a hood. Im wanting a formula hood with an exaggerated power bulge, and some tall valve covers. And as soon as we find out if this is do-able, we will start looking for more parts for mold, like camaros, and earlier firebirds. Maybe even some 4th gen stuff for the guys who have converted their car.

Ill post pictures as soon as possible. And keep you guys informed on what we are building.

Id like to point out a few things also:
1) Real carbon fiber parts are not going to be cheap, ever. If its a cosmetic part, we can make it a little cheaper by making it with either CFRP, or a combination of fiberglass, and carbon.
2) Those $500 hoods you see arent solid carbon fiber. They are several layers of fiberglass, with one or two layers of thin carbon fiber on top. Thats why most still weigh quite a bit. I guessing a real carbon fiber hood would weigh around 20 lbs or less. I read an article last night where a mustang guy built a deck lid for his car, and it weighed 2 lbs. And his doors were less than 20.
3) Carbon fiber has been on a world wide shortage for years. Some styles, and thicknesses still are. Any parts that have any real structure, like doors, and fenders, and hoods, will require a much higher weight and thickness of fiber weave, making it alot more expensive. We are looking into some ways to keep the costs down on the cosmetic stuff.
4) We are open to any input, suggestions, or requests. Im sure we can build almost anything, within reason for our cars (or for your car, Im starting with parts for my car, because its here, and I have parts for it). Within reason meaning, we cant build an engine block, or heads, or a tube frame. Its just not possible. We will be making molds, and laying this stuff up by hand in my garage. The more complex the item, the more complex the mold, and the more expensive the part.
5) I have no idea what it will cost to make this stuff. Thats why Im going to make some simple parts for my car first. That way I know what materials we need, and how long it takes. Then we can get some input, and see if changes are needed.

Any suggestions for parts can either be posted here, or sent to me by PM. If this turn into something feasible for us to do on a regular basis, we will start a pricelist, or something. Right now its just a "see a need, fill a need" type thing. Im hoping it will turn into something bigger, but we might only make a few peices for a couple of people. Who knows?

comp

waiting to see

el_muerte

anyone have any suggestions for online retailers of carbon fibre (raw fabric, not finished parts)? there's nothing local for me and all i've really found online is http://www.fibreglast.com, wondering if there's a place a guy could get a bit better rates than 60 bucks a yard for 3k fabric. even a canadian retailer with comparable prices so i don't have to deal with customs etc.

jccaclimber

You may try Mr. Fiberglass and US Composites or even ebay. Sadly the prices don't go down until you start to buy 100 yards rolls several at a time.

DrummerDad

I thought Id give an update to those interested.

We tried making a mold of the radio face plate, and it didnt work out. So I laid the fibers straight over the panel, and layed it up. I still have to work out some wrinkles (yes the plastic actually left wrinkles), but the first is done. I dont like it, yet. Ill work on it though.

Im thinking of getting some expanding polyeurethane foam, and making a mold. The problem is, Im working 50 hrs a week now, and might be going to 60 hrs. So saturday is the only day I have to play, and the guy helping me bailed. So Im solo. Plus the foam isnt cheap. Im going to make a few panels, and see what you all think. If it goes well, Ill step it up, and maybe invest in some foam for molds.

Sorry its taking so long. Theres only so many hrs in a week, and as soon as I get home from work, we eat, and my wife goes to work. Its getting kinda hectic.

Mr. IROC-Z

iTrader: (1)

Please..someone make the Japanese Carbon hood. Japan is selling it at about $1400, then probably another $500 shipping.
There are a ish load of people that will buy it..I will be first one.

el_muerte

@DrummerDad: Is that instrument shroud you're working on for a 206? I used to maintain helicopters, always thought it would be sweet to lighten 'em up a bit with carbon fibre. Always made me laugh, a million-dollar machine with 25-cent el cheapo brittle plastic interiors.

DrummerDad

Might as well be. Its a de-militerized OH-58c, which is almost a 206b. We are getting alot of them from the military, because of Homeland Security. Alot of police departments that otherwise couldnt afford a helicopter are getting them from HS. Pretty cool, but we dont get the ones that are in good shape. We spend months doing major overhauls.

And I hate the plastic interiors. You remove them, and put them right back in, and nothing fits. Its just stupid.


Im dying to make a hood. I want one bad. But the cost is up there though. Im guessing maybe $700-800 in material alone. Not counting the mold, which is by far the hardest part. Im thinking of buying some expanding foam, and making a mold, but Id have to start with a firebird formula hood (power bulge), since thats what I have. The first one would cost alot. After that, it isnt bad. And then Id have to buy a good camaro hood. I might be able to borrow a hood from a friend. But as for a "japanese" hood, I dont know what you mean. Id be making a mold from a factory hood. I might be able to add a cowl, or something.

Ill see just how bad a mold would be. Take some measurements, and do some math on materials, and such. So far, Im "borrowing" carbon from work, and using scraps. I cant borrow enough scrap to build a hood. And Im working alone now. Ill see what itll cost, and post back up and gauge some interest.

And I havent forgot about those who PMed me. Im working on getting some stuff together. Im just working saturdays on this now. 50+ hrs a week at work.

AC

iTrader: (3)

DrummerDad, I'm with Mr.Iroc in WANTING one of those hoods. Is there a design that we can find that already exists in fiberglass that could be used as a core? I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable amount either using a "core" or using a core dontated to your team to fab with. I love to do fabrication projects that involved EDM, boring, welding, Bridgeports, lathes, etc but when it comes to fiberglass, CF, or anything "chemical", I'd rather work with guys like you.Can you either PM me or desribe the process here in this thread on how to make a form or mold so we can also offer thoughts / input on helping??? VERY interested here in CT.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

i read in a thread somewhere that there IS a mold for a carbon hood, i think it may even be the jap one, im going to try to find that tread again, but it was like someone had one, and made one hood, then something came up, the mold was bought by someone else, and now its just sitting

DrummerDad

Im a fabricator at work, actually. I make custom parts, and mounts for equipment. I take sheet metal, and extruded angles, u-channels, etc.. and make approved (or parts to be submitted for approval) mounts for things like radios, monitors, and video equipment in helicopters.


Carbon fiber lays up alot like fiberglass. You make a mold (several ways to do that) and then you lay it up. Some of the differences are that,
1) The carbon fiber will usually be seen, so it HAS to be straight, and uniform. Fiberglass mat is typically small strands, so you can just lay it up any direction, and even if you use a woven cloth type, its going to be painted, so it doesnt have to be straight.
2) If you make a fiberglass hood, and it doesnt fit too well, you can just sand it, lay a little cloth back on it, some resin, and paint it. Its not that easy with carbon fiber. If you sand thru the resin, your screwed. You might be able to mend it with resin, but its going show.
3) To make carbon fiber work for a large item like a hood, it has to be layed up in an angular offset, or around 45 degrees opposite to the last layer. So, it will take at least 4 layers( because it is woven in 2 directions, 90 degrees offset). We have played with small peices, and if you ignore this, it will flex. And you will know what direction was skipped. If you only go two direction (lets say 90 degrees opposite, kinda like a plus sign +) it will flex corner to corner, both ways. You want it to look kinda like an asterik *.


Hope that makes sense. The biggest thing im trying to figure out is how to make the hinge mount holes, and safety latch. I could install a metal plate with a nutplate/welded nut thats the same thread and pitch as the standard bolts for the hood, but what if they spin, or strip? And Im not a fan of a pin on design. Id rather use the hood hinges and support, and just use a shock with a lower weight rating.

And the cost is pretty high. The good looking carbon (the thick, 5.7 oz twill weave) is about $43 a yard, and thats only 50 inches wide. My firebird hood is around 57-1/2" at the longest part, and 62-1/2" wide at the widest. I can "cheat" and use a kevlar/carbon hybrid, thats weighs close to the same, and you wouldnt see it. But your still talking $39 a yard. And the foam for a mold is $245 for 20 cu.ft. Two molds (top and bottom) would run around $575.

If a person just wanted the look, they could just buy a fiberglass hood, and lay a layer of carbon fiber over it. That would be easy, and shouldnt cost a whole lot. But the weight would be alot higher.

Im sure I could sell at least 5-10 hoods. But it would take (again, Im guessing) maybe 5 to make break even with a mold. And Id have to have a perfect hood to cast a mold. Even my hood wont work. Ive got two low spots where the hoods PO had hood pins, and its a little low in the middle.

Its alot to think about. Im going to ask a couple of guys at work tomorrow if they would help me make a mold, and well see what we can come up with.

Mr. IROC-Z

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the very detailed resposne. I don't really care about the look of the hood...I just want the extra light weight part of it. I know that carbon can offer this. More than likely, if I can't get a carbon hood from anyone here, I will just order one from Japan and take my losses....I really want it.

Tommy

DrummerDad

Not to ***** the thread, but I realized I didnt explain the mold.


2 ways I can think of are:


1) Make a box larger than the part (Im thinking maybe 70" X 70" X 8" deep), and make some internal support to hold the hood in a fixed position. Then you mix the expanding foam, and pour it in the mold, and set the hood in it. The foam will expand, and fill the voids. Once it dries, you remove the hood, and then either modify it, or sand it, maybe even both. Its like a plaster mold, but much more effective and lighter. The when your ready, you use a releasing agent, and lay the fabric straight in the mold. If you plan to vacuum bag it (which is best. It removes the excess resin, and makes the part lighter. It also removes air bubbles) you need a few holes, and then you lay the plastic over it, and hook up the pump. Repeat for the other half. At some point you have to put the two sides together, and bond them.

2) Take a perfect hood, and cover it with releasing agent. Lay fiberglass straight on the hood, and insert some supports. I think a few 2X4s would lay up nicely and keep the mold from cracking while your moving it. Remove the hood, and duplicate the process for the bottom half. Once it dries, youd have to finish it, so you start with a nice smooth surface (the foam shouldnt need alot of work here). Might even paint the inside of the molds, so it will release easier. Then just lay the carbon fiber up like you normally would.

Im sure there are more ways to do it. Those are just the two that came to mind.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

#2 is a good way and Ive done it like that with a few diff. parts ive done.. Hoods, fenders,etc..

Good guide line for ya............
build the mold with a 5 inch flange all the way around it, this will give space for the bagging and help stiffen it up. lay out a sheet of card board and marked the outline of the hood, it needs to be raised off the the cardboard about 1/2 an inch. Use hot glue to hold the molding and the hood in place. To fill in the area and give it a nice radius use modeling clay, cheep and easy to work with, for the back flange shap some cardboard and glued it down.

three good coats of wax.
{picture here}
the first coat of face coat
{picture here}
Lay down two plies of fine fiberglass then two plies of graphite cloth. Next put down the tooling dough, this stuff is great it makes a super strong and light weight mold. After the dough lay two plies of heavy cloth and attach the back half of the wood frame
[pictures here]

let it all cure. start your layin up from there.
place the cloth in the mold I usually add extra plies to the edges, hinge area and the front top corners for hood pins. The hinge area is good and stiff.

now to go one step furter for a stronger hood just not as light weight unles you have an autoclave.

make a rev. mold of the under side also. now you have a 2piece mold like the stock 83Z hoods. bond the top shell and the bottom shell with some 3m composite weld and your good to go.

seeing this thread go me wanting to mess around again. i have a stock iroc hood I might cut on up and do some sheetmetal work on to make a mold like the jap hood.

(ill upload pic's later and edit this post with them saved them fromlong ago. gotta find em..)

Mr. IROC-Z

iTrader: (1)

Here is the link of the Japanese hood, just in case anyone forgot what it looked like:
http://www.grace-co.co.jp/car_hood_top1/hood_main1.html

I'd like to suggest that if we do make this hood, to only include the center cowel. The two side vents on the hood should not be included....just my thoughts...hehe.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Wow....$1400 for a hood.....Not sure if the weight savings is worth THAT much $$$$$$$$$.

That would buy a lot of horsepower, to take care of the extra weight of fiberglass over carbon fiber

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I would be down for a full carbon fiber formula hood. I am awaiting a company that makes hoods for 1st gens to finish the flat hood for the 2nd gen as we speak. It is going to coast me around $2000 because they need to order custom 60" widths for the top layer to make it continuous.
Yes you COULD buy more horsepower for the extra money but when you get up in the HP numbers there is also a point of diminshing returns. I am looking at about 500hp LS1 for my 71. I want the car to be streetable too. So when you start going to high in HP numbers you either lose drivability or you have to start going forced induction. I want to stay N/A so at that point weight=horsepower for me.
Remember how fast do you want to go is directly proportional to how much money you have to spend

Where are you located? I am not sure where Tri cities is
----------
Not to nix something that he would want to make some money on but you can already buy CF valve covers for gen I/II and III/IV engines already. I would rather see him make something that is not out there already

DrummerDad

Tri-cities is the Johnson city/Kingsport/Bristol area. If you know where Bristol motor Speedway is, Im about 20 minutes from it. Im not a NASCAR fan, but that seems to be the most popular landmark.


Im talking to some friends, and a few businesses, to see if there is a way to help offset some cost. I figured the 1st hood would cost about $3000-4000, and that includes the molds, with no mistakes. After that, its still close to $1000-1200 for the materials for each additional hood. I would have to make a few, and see if there are any tricks to save some fabric, or resin. I hope Im way off, but at a minimum of 4 layers each half, thats alot of fabric. And these arent honda hoods either. They are pretty big. And Ive been a fabricator for almost 5 years now, and its rare to make a perfect product on the first try. Thats one reason Im talking to a couple of places about making the molds for me. We will see how this pans out.

Maybe if I can get the hoods going, we can look into fenders, and bumper covers/nose peices. But Im afraid the sticker shock will keep all but the most serious builders away. Like Stephen said, thats alot of money for a hood. Even if they do look awesome.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I am serious about my car, I suppose a full CF hood is overkill for my project anyway but to my group of friend I am the carbon fiber guy. My project name for the 71 is Metal Mucil; more fiber
On the 3rd gen I would most likely be painting the entire top side of the hood but the underside would be left bare.
If you can be in the ~$1200-$1300 area I would be in for a bolt on formy hood

DrummerDad

I like the look also, and love the weight savings. But its become the "billet" look of todays car crowd, and its a bit overdone. I would also paint the outside, and leave the inside. And from what Ive seen, that will save alot of money. It can be done with a smaller roll, and lapped, and small repairs can be made.

Im going to go next week and talk to a local guy about the molds. He said he could lay it up too, so Ill check with him on that. Im hoping that I can have him do the molds (and let me own them), and have him do the layup. With the hours Im working, it would be awhile before I could get any big work done.

Let me get with him, and get a rough estimate on the hoods. Im looking at a formula hood, maybe with an exaggerated power bulge (Im thinking of adding maybe 1" to 1-1/2" added to the opening), and a Z28 hood.

If this guy can get me in the ballpark, Ill start a poll to see what hoods would be the most popular. Im sure we wont be able to accomodate everyones wants for a hood, but we could get a few for the birds, and a few for the camaros.

Suaveat69

Joe Overbeek makes carbon Fiber hoods for the 4th gens and they weigh about 9 lbs. I think they are around 1K?

rideon1200

I dont think there is a market for carbon fiber with our cars. I have a carbon fiber ram air hood I have had for 3 months. It is for a 93-97 but havent had any interest. Looks great and VIS makes a nice product, just no interest. Got it by mistake, co I got it from closed.

Wrenchp

I think that a whole upper plenum that will fit a TPI base with runners and everything. That would be cool!

jccaclimber

If you actually go through with that PM me and I'll tell you how to do the threads, there's a specific way of doing that. As for mold options (the post below the one I'm replying to), option number two, then skip the inside mold, vacuum bag it, and sand and paint the inside.

Fords88Bird

Drummer, have you heard of a CF material thats impregnated with polyethelene and can be layered and doesn't require resin, just heat and vacuum pressure. Later.

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

carbon fiber doors would be amazing. carbon fiber hood blisters would be great. carbon fiber dashpad would also be nice becuase the stock one weighs 10lbs. im kind of a weight reduction freak because i gotta compete with 2250lb 240sx's. i mean i know this is unrealistic, but it shure would be cool to get a carbon fiber targa hatch. at lesat in a weight reduction sense.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Not quite as light, but we can already get fiberglass dash pads. Just wrap it in leather/vinyl for the soft, textured look,

DrummerDad

Just an update.

Im still working on a mold for hoods, and hope to get a price in a few days. The guy Im talking too had a death in the family(his Dad), and hasnt responded in a few days. Im still in touch, and will call again tomorrow.

Ive also been working alot of overtime. And, Im trying to get some other after hours things going. Im running out of hours in the day at this point. I will update, even if its a no-go as soon as possible.

I will tell you we are discussing a two part hood (one solid outer shell, and an internal, but not factory brace) that bolts on, no pins. If we can do that, everything else is cake.

strc09

iTrader: (5)

I kind of browsed the thread, but I'm interested in some parts as well. I'd like to get some interior parts done (i.e. shifter bezel, radio bezel, and instrument bezel) as well as a few parts under the hood like the upper radiator support. Also, does anyone have an idea of how that guy (the CarDomain link) might have made the splitters for his car? I thought that looked sweet and is something that I've been comtemplating for sometime about wanting on my car. Looking forward to seeing some pics of the finished work.

Firebreather

I would love doors, fenders, shifter plate and radio bezel. Of course, every exterior panel would be painted.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Why "of course"? And I really doubt you would want doors unless it is a drag only car and even then. Get hit on the side and you get hurt pretty bad plus if you close one too hard.....

Firebreather

Well, it's true about the doors. I just want to get some weight off those heavy-*** doors. About the "of course" well, it's a matter of personal taste. That's all. Fenders would be great to get some extra weight off the front, additional to the fiberglass hood I have. THe interior bits would be part of some plans I have to upgrade the interiors to make them look a bit more "upscale"

BMR Sales

Well I know its a mustang but if you guys want to see a every interesting thread on DIY carbon fiber parts then look at this

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=660756

Its amazing what this guy is doing in his GARAGE!

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Yeah I have seen that before and it is SICK with what he has done but most of us dont have the skills needed or the space available. I for one dont have the space right now

Firebreather

If anyone here knows this stuff, now's the time to start taking orders in.

Firebreather

Nobody???

jccaclimber

Ok, I've got time again. In the process of laying up a carbon roll bar/chassis for another project (our third) we ordered a bunch of extra carbon because one of the other guys and I are in the mood to start making carbon parts again, basically to keep ourselves occupied. We're planning to go with a high temp resin ($$$) so that overheating the oil or something like that won't leave carbon shards in the oil due to a resin failure. First however:

1) Does anybody have a print for the head bolts? We have an old pair of center bolt Lingenfelter valve covers laying around that I can take measurements off of, but I'd rather have a proper print. Also, would stock internal height work for most people or do you want a taller set? Specifically, how much clearance do you want and is there any reason you would prefer a lower profile? My car (courtesy of the previous owner) has a tall set, but boring stock type 1.5 rockers under it and it's never bothered me.

2) A lot of people have expressed an interest in these, but, before I go making a production mold, getting high temp resin, so on, who is seriously interested and what are you willing to pay for a pair? Either PM me or post it here.

3) Somewhat tied to the last question, what are you looking for more specifically?
a) Something built to survive the apocalypse which weighs as much as an aluminum pair, you can slam a wrench into, and is a solid hunk of carbon.
b) Something strong enough to take running on a motor, but not something you're going to put body weight on. It'll be light weight, it'll be pretty, it won't take you standing on it.
c) Something in between, probably not a good idea to stand on it, but reasonably made. Carbon fiber outside and inside, foam core, fiberglass mat, or something else in between.
d) Other?

4) Does anybody have an interest in a raised or lowered section with, the Chevy emblem, your name, your car's name, whatever? Our plan was to do this for the first pair or two as encouragment for the first person or two.

Comments, questions, concerns? Post it here or PM me.

Tice

I second that, Amen!!

BTT...
I would love to have Carbon Fiber Body Panels, and Doors, for their weight,
Carbon Fiber front and read bumpers for their weight and durability (If I'm not mistake, Carbon fiber can be hit pretty hard with a hammer and not be Phazed...)
and I'd like to have a Carbon Fiber Belly pan for Aerodynamics...
D@mn money, and it's elusivness...

jccaclimber

A carbon fiber front bumper might not be a great idea. Kevlar or really plastic something would be better. Think of it like an air dam, you want it to be flexible. Carbon is strong, so in stress dependent cases (rock, LIGHT bump) then it's good. On the other hand in deflection dependent cases (you go 1 inch too far towards the parking stop) then you want the material (bumper) to bend 1 inch rather than break. The carbon is going to be harder to bend that 1 inch than plastic but, with a car behind it, and a driver that told the car to go 1 inch too far, the strength of that bumper has no hope.

Tice

Too true, thanks for clearin that up for me. Well... the rest of my ideas sounded good... Money aside. lol

recarosp

t

jccaclimber

??

recarosp

T TOPS,REAR HATCH,DASH PAD,HEADLIGHT COVERS,INTERIOR PANELS

jccaclimber

Ttops panels would be easy... if you had the original hardware bar. Can you actually buy just the bar? Weight savings I presume? If you did headlight covers I assume you mean firebird (I was thinking Camaro and getting confused) Dash would be doable for a camaro at least, but that's a big piece and would be $$ to be strong. I'm not familiar with the 'bird dash.

my89

Generally kevlar will have some give to it while pure CF won't. So usually for automotive applications where rigidity is important people use CF.

I think a CF front/rear bumper cover would be cool. You could change the shape slightly and it wouldn't bend or sag. Also, and easier? would be the air dam and unerbody panel the screws into the front bumper cover. Mine has some ripples and I've always felt it seemed cheap. Though a CF air dam would crack instead of give if you ran over anything hard.

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

Parts I'd like to see in CF.

Door Sills
Center Console
Headliner (T-Top AND Coupe)
Door Panels (Not much weight savings but would look killer)
Door Pillars (Where we post gauges)
Dash, full or dash pad
Cargo Area Covers
Sail Panels
Clutch, Gas, Brake pedals?
CF T-Top Glass Replacement. We are doing this on our 300zx's, instead of the glass we replace it with carbon fiber for a nice weight savings, plus because of the glass they used on the Z31's they actually brought hot air in and kept it in, we call them greenhouse t-tops. My tops are to dark to see out of anyway.

jccaclimber

Hmm, sail panels would be another easy one. Assuming they are the same I could mold off of my car and pop a set of those out in a matter of weeks. Dash cover wouldn't be too hard either as it would not need any of the mounting points. Maybe a bit more tricky depending on how far around the front you want it to curve.

When you do a 300zx T-Top do you replace just the glass panel? IE how do you mount it to the car?

Iroc Adio

iTrader: (3)

I would definitely be interested in some carbon fiber parts. Let me know if you make some