nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I have made this topic before and Deadbird locked it and PM'ed me and said this topic has no place anywhere on this site. (this was a long time ago)

I want to discuss this greatly, So I will give this another shot.

Why do you think Thirdgens are the better generation?

We do not have big blocks.
We do not run 13's from the factory (firehawks and tta's don't count)
We do not have LS1's or 6spds.... (again... firehawks do not count)

I know we had the IROC
I know we "technically" had the fastest production firehawk.
Hell, we had knightrider...

Chime in, tell us why our generation is superior to the others. If you have a 3rd gen with other gen stuff, do not advertise how special your car is. This is a genuine conversation and I am being serious.

Do not start any BS or flame others... or you will be reported...

scottmoyer

This needs to be watched closely!!! Any opinions get out of hand or any unreasonable responses will be deleted and can lead to actions against the poster.

GM did a public survey of all 4 generations and asked the general public which car was the most recognizable as a Camaro, and the majority of the choices were the 85 IROC-Z. The styling cues were dead on. Many people don't care much for the lack of performance of the 80s cars, but the looks were some of the best. Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Chevrolet had the most desired styling of any car manufacturer.

smartman__007

iTrader: (1)

I can recognize all F-body's by their generation but that's because I'm somewhat a fanatic. (Keyword somewhat because I only own 1. ) Anyways, I like them because they're cost effective and an abundance of parts can be added or found for them. They're somewhat collector cars depending on the condition and mileage.

I especially love the styling of them, (probably going to get kicked in the face for saying this) especially the firebird's with the swooping lines and Corvette like nose, I do believe it's base model 90-92 firebirds. The camaro is beautiful too in that it has it's own styling apart from the firebird. It appears somewhat jagged and just screams performance.

The only downside is some people classify muscle cars as big block, manual speed, all out dragstrip machines. But these cars aren't really muscle cars in my opinion, they're more sports cars and I like it. It can hold with the *cough* Mustang and looks many times better in my opinion. It's just too bad they stopped production of the camaro until recently . That's my rant and let's hope forum-goers can be mature and not get this thread locked and deleted.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I agree with you completely about the abundance of parts.

I do believe these are most definately muscle cars though, muscle cars, are usually defined as heavy steel cars with V8's that go fast. You would think of a sports car like Pontiac Solstice, or honda S2000. This is just my opinion.

I must admit the body of the thirdgen's are nice, They are long and sleek compared to the 2nd gens, and first, however the 4th gens especially LSx Firebirds are gorgeous.

Here is what I like about each generation.

1ST-
The infamous 455 "pure pontiac" I love it to death.
The car was introduced completely.
Details were awesome for example, the rear turn signals of the birds
were actual firebirds (that is awesome detail that you do not see nowadays)
Camaros have a rising aftermarket and one of the most sought after cars.
Had 12 bolt rears

2ND-
They had the 400 SBC the 454
Started the T-tops
Had the awesome screaming chicken hood decals.
Shaker hoods

3RD-
Had the IROC
Started the FIREHAWK
Had the GTA
Started the FORMULA
Actually had MPFI systems

4TH-
The only generation with LTx and LSx motors
6 Spd Transmissions
Ram air hoods
dual piston calipers for brakes

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

if the L98's were available with a stronger 5 speed or a 6spd like the vettes, it would have sold more and would be more popular among the GM camaro fans.

one reason i happen to love thirdgens is the styling and functionality. its not over done, but is not bland. they have great lines and potential. the right paint and wheels reallly makes these cars stand out.

they may not be fastest things out there but they are solid 13 second cars (L98) with 4 basic mods. moreover, they handle very very well. the IROCZ racing heritage makes me proud to own one. 4th gens can be made to handle but everyone i know who has driven both generations say the thirdgen handles better. i'm not sure why that is as dimensionally they are close and utilize similar suspension design.

thirdgens are fairly easy to work on. the motor is not under the windsheild like a 4th gen. plenty of room in the engine bay.

those are reasons why i think 3rd gens are one of the best gens...but i must say, i love all the generations of camaros and firebirds

ajmclean

the styling of the 3d gen is timeless, and the feature that didnt exist in
other generations is the superp handling for high models like iroc/GTA,
it was a true sports car,

but the truth is i love 3d gen because every time i see one
it puts a big smile on my face

Randy82WS7

imho the thirds are not the best but the first gen are except for their weight and rear suspension,

i think the third and first gens tie in looks

but i reallyonly like the 82 83 and 84 years of the third gen and not so much of the 85-up stuff, although if i were ot ever some odd reason get a later bird i would go with a 90-92 but then i really dont liek plastic crap much and so i doubt thatwill ever happen because those years are just covered in tons of ABS, way too much

the second gens are my last pick due to a myriad of reasons including weight, bulkiness, crappy suspension, and everyone and their dog owns one, in most regions anyways


unlike the third gens especially the first three years in which i never see one of other than my own, but i see second gen ones around still, so...

the third gens are lighter and so sleek and low and just plain neat from the factory, all except for the drivetrains, in which is an easy fix however, in most all cases
and you can still buy a third gen for pennies compared to most of the other two gens, so thats a real big plus, and youre buying a lighter lower and better suspension one to boot,


all three gens have their ups and downs about them, but thats how it is,.,

good luck

phess11

For their place in time they are decades ahead of their competition in styling and handling. There horsepower was competitive for the 80's but not great. They also have high marks for driver cockpit comfort, and fun to drive!

ChillPhatCat

2nd Gen started the Formula and 2nd gen Firebirds did have pontiac motors for a while.


I can't say I prefer any gen over another, each seems to have good qualities IMO.

Good things about the thirdgen:

Good selection of stock swaybars, light weight, well balanced, a lot of variety among stock models, a big aftermarket and it also shares many parts with the 4th gens... also, the engine doesn't go under the dash like on 4th gen.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

Hmm, I did not know about the formula good to know. I knew about the 455's but I posted it on the first gens because 454 was not a choice.

twobirds

Hmmmm. I never really thought about this. But I love the lines of both the first and third gen more than the 2nd and 4th. I agree that the first gens are more of a muscle car and the thirds are a sports car. Not that one is better than the other though, it is a matter of taste from the owner.

a mack6

iTrader: (1)

I love the third gen looks. A thirdgen in great condition is hard to beat in the appearance category. Especially now-a-days, when atleast 65% of thirdgens that you see driving around are POS's, a nice one really breaks some necks.

Gotta love the handling too...IIRC, Car and Driver named the Iroc the best handling car in the world in 1985!!!

ChillPhatCat

I think they made the 455 into the 70's... by the time the emissions standards got through with it, it was like 220 Hp or something anemic... '70 1/2 was the last year of the 454 (LS6) and they offered the 396 through '72... but that's just nitpicking. http://www.nastyz28.com/ Has all the 2nd gen Camaro info you could ever want.

I too disliked 4th and 2nd gens lookwise at one time, but I'm more driven by if it's a good deal and has power and ended up with one of each... the looks grow on you. The '97 is now my favorite year aside from first gens. I also like to drive unique cars, only seeing another 2nd gen maybe once a month is nice.

I'm pretty psyched about this IROC I just bought though, First mod is to replace the itsy bitsy 34mm swaybar with the '88 WS6 36mm swaybar I snagged at the boneyard for my last 3rd gen.

90tararebird

iTrader: (4)

Third gen is better that second gen because if you think 3rd are a rattle trap 2nd is ten times worse. my first car was a 1980 301 pontiac powered black trans am with screaming chicken and shaker hood. When i traded it in it was ten years old and in realy rough shape. My1990 Trans am is now 17 years old and in way better condition than my 1980 was ay 10 years old. I think the quality got better as the years went on. We seem to get a better response from the public as the years go by. Every year that goes buy there are less of our cars around and the steriotype of WT, *******, or ginny seems to lessen. I go to a cruse night in my area and you can see cars from the last 50 years, and there is always some 3rd gens there.

Mike97ZJ

I think the third gens in general have very timeless styling. For example, IMO a '87 GTA looks better than a '97 T/A. I find the LT1 T/A's look more dated than the 3rd gens. The ultra pointy nose and big rear wing just don't do it for me.

I'd say the pre- '85's look dated now, but that's just because of model year updates. I'd say the thing the dates them the most is the interior, especially the Camaro. No offense to the Camaro guys, but even though I was always a Chevy guy growing up, I just couldn't stand the look of the dash. Once I test drove my first GTA I was hooked on the Pontiacs. Not that the GTA digital dash doesn't look WAY dated.

Also, the 3rd gens handle great. Head and shoulders above the Mustangs of the same era. When I had my 88GTA, I had quite a few 5.0 guys say they'd beat me in a drag race, but would lose if you threw in a few curves. I have a Motor Trend from 1982 with the first 3rd gen TA on the cover, and they call in the best handling car in the US. My GTA was WS6, and I also owned a '98 Formy m6. Now of course the Formy was WAY faster, but I swear that the GTA handled much better and was more fun to drive.

It depends on who you ask too. If you talk to people in aged mid 20's to mid 30's, they'll identify with the 3rd gen the most because that's what they grew up with. I fit in that category. I always loved them as a little kid, and still have a soft spot for them.

For pure speed though, you can't beat a LS1 fourth gen. Against a 455 SD, or any other hi po stocker , I'd put my cash on the LS1.

84L69TA

The 1st gens never came with a 455. And Thirdgens did have dual piston calipers.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

1st gen Firebirds most certainly had 455's and I meant dual piston calipers standard on V8's not an option (LS1 only)

jbenge

iTrader: (2)

I like all generations of F-Bodies especially the 70-73 camaro's. But for me the thirdgen bridges the gap between old school carburated muscle cars and more modern fuel injected pro touring type cars...thirgens can do either well and cheaper than other generations of f-body. For $2-3K(or less) you can get a nice(minimal body work) and complete V8 thirdgen to start building...try that with any other generation f-body.

twobirds

Ohhh no, first gens never got the mighty 455. The best was the ram air 400's.
Pretty sure 455 came out in 71.

Conrad

brp88gta

i know the 455 came out in 70. im not sure when they started putting them in firebirds though, but they defintly did not come in 1st gen firebirds.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

they came out in 1970

twobirds

But birds did not get the 455 till 71. Two 455 were available, the 455 and 455 HO.

Note-Kinda off topic now.....

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

Then I suppose my neighbors 69 firebird's 455 is not original... He swore up and down it was.

scottmoyer

The 455 wasn't available on the Firebird until 1971. Can we keep this 3rd gen related?

marroman

simply put= different strokes for different folks eh?

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

That has nothing to do with this topic really. We need to get back on track.

Z2EIGHT

The 3rd gen Camaro has a very powerful appearance, also very unique for that time, and even now!

The 3rd gen Firebird till '90 is very sleek and scream IMO sports car/Corvette twin(looks), 91 - 92 are also up there, but they are at the bottom of my list.

I love how the 3rd gen firebird looks good with or without GFX!

-Peace

proxemics

simply third gen is one of the best looking cars. I loved them in the past and I love them more now

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Where do you want to start? How about technology? I doubt anyone would dispute that the thirdgen Fbody platform was more technologically advanced then any prior Fbody. The technological advantage starts at the body and works it's way through every aspect of the car. The third generation cars were a completely new design over the 2nd gen models. Keep this in mind for later. About the only thing carried over from the 2nd gens were the SBC V8.

So judging solely by technology, wouldn't the 93-up cars have an edge over the thirdgens? Honestly, yes. But what are those advantages and what exactly makes a fourth gen different then a thirdgen? Well the first thing that stands out, is that the fourth gen is a very subtle makeover of the thirdgen. Essentially the bulk of the changes are cosmetic. The front suspension was changed to a more typical upper/lower A-arm suspension and the steering was changed from recirculating ball to rack/pinion. The change wasn't anything new, rather it's old technology. Hard to say why GM made the change anyway, since many people who have owned both third and fourth gen platforms prefer the earlier feel. The only other non-cosmetic 'improvements' if you can call them that, are the LT1, and later, LS1 along with computer controlled transmissions. The transmissions are basically just mildly doctored versions of the same equipment used in the thirdgen. The LT1 could even be considered a step in the wrong direction from the L98. From a performance stand point alone, stock vs stock, the LT1 lacked the torque of the L98. On the street, the L98 will walk all over the LT1. Not to mention growing pains associated with the LT1. So what has the 93-97 Fbody have on the thirdgen? 17" wheels, and a 6spd manual transmission, both optional equipment that could very well have been applied to the thirdgen platform had its run continued another year.

98-up Fbodies have the advantage of the LS1. A quantum leap in engine technology. Granted on the street a stock L98 will keep up just fine, but the LS1 is a technologically superior engine. The rest of the advantages (suspension, improved braking, etc) are all just minor upgrades that could have and probably would have been applied to the thirdgen platform had it lasted that long.

So... Basically the 4th gen is just *****'d up thirdgen with some new technology thrown in based on current standards. Honestly from my perspective, the sticker price of the 4th gens, combined with an engine sitting 2/3rds under the dash, makes the thirdgen a more obvious choice. Then there's the appearance... They wanted to make the car look different in an attempt to fool the public into thinking it wasn't the same old design. In the process I think they went too far. 93-97 cars aren't too distasteful, however the 98-up cars are far over the top. I see driving a 98-up Fbody, similar to working an office job in a cubical and arriving to work everyday in a brite yellow suit, with a wide collar, a bright yellow hat with a white band and a purple feather, and hi-rise platform shoes with functional built in aquariums.

That's just scratching the surface. You asked for an opinion and that's mine. GM has missed the boat time and time again. The 4th gens missed the point, as have nearly ever other recent GM performance car, and I'd expect the new Camaro to fail just as miserably as the GTO. Until they come up with a platform that will perform at the top of the list, with a cosmetic treatment that looks aggressive but also subdued enough to look at home in any parking lot or driveway, with a price tag close to $20,000, GM will never catch up.

Mike97ZJ

The rest of it was well said, but on this point I disagree..

I think the '93-'97 T/A's are worse looking than the '98-02's, and I think the 98-'02 Formula is the cleanest and best looking of the bunch, especially the Firehawks.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Why I like the Thirdgen over any other gen:

#1 They are reasonably priced right now
#2 My 00 Trans Am is a freaking boat compared to my 88 Trans Am. Yes, the 00 is faster in a straight line but it isn't much fun to just drive. Handling in 1st and 2nd gens is a joke by modern standards
#3 The looks, I like the look. Only thing that comes close is 98+ LS1 Firebirds (Camaro look like Carp), 1st gen Camaros done up nice, and early 70s Trans Ams. That is my total opinion, thus cannot be wrong for why I like them ;-)
#4 Traditional SBC with Fuel Injection.
#5 The Community. I have met more then a handful of Thirdgen owners that are my active friends, normally my age with a interest in cars.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The appearance is subjective, but massive bulging fenders, hoods, and non-functional scoops, combined with needlessly smoothed body lines, just go too far... They're the kind of car that when it pulls up you expect one of three kinds of occupants... Either Guido, the killer pimp, a white male under 25, or a aging gray haired white male trying to be under 25 again.

Kevman

That's the best part IMO.. I once randomly went to someones house asking if they were selling there 87 Iroc, and ended up talking with the guy for over an hour. Project '86, aswell, I sold some parts to.
But the 3rd gens have a very unique style, that shows from a distance how it looks aggressive, but because of Big Brother, had to be down tuned and fitted with smog equip..

marroman

i dunno but that heavy wall of text was well put IMO i always thought that camaro got left behind in new devine interventions compared to the trans ams/firebirds of 99-02 I always thought them to be fierce and competive looking but with all that new light shined in i see a new picture ty for that information

gimpeh

I personally like the thirdgens for a variety of reasons:

I) The 3rd gens look menacing ( be it maro or firebird). A 3rd gen will stick out more then a generation before or after it.

II) When you build a sportscar/musclecar, you dont want to soak alot of $ into something to get it to work. Since there is a really good aftermarket for 3rd gens, its easier to customize and make the car go fast, for little $.

III) To my knowledge, this is the biggest f body forum on the net, hands down. If you have a question on here there is a handful of people who can explain what looks good, what is garbage... just what generally works.

IV) Although i havent seen a whole bunch of people from canada on here, the people on here are very nice and answer any questions, as some have done this 1 million times over

V) The engine bay is HUGE... you can easily fit a 502 BBC under the hood with minimal effort, and still have enough room to fit a third world country.

VI) Everyone loves handling.. well third gens have the best handling ( in my opinion ) of any f body... go through curves, straightlines, hell even donuts and its still as fun..

Thats my rant...
on another note, is there anyone on this forum who is from ontario canada? If there is , please email me @ gimpyis@hotmail.com .. id love to meet some ppl off this site

iggy89

iTrader: (3)

Over all these cars are very nice. I havn't had much time with my car yet and I have not had a chance to even drive it yet. I havn't even been in a working camaro or firebird at all! So far I bought my car based on that I bought a 350(yea i bought the motor first) and needed something to put it in. I am glad I came across this site and bought this beutiful, completely rust free 86 camaro from a member on the site. I am not really into the design of the interior but maybe its because it is red lol. This will be my first buildup/restore and I hope that it will be enjoyable.

82 S/E WS6

Still lookin good after 25 years Thats the best reason so far

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Gents,

I came from across the pond in 93 (long story but she was REALLY cute with a nice a...) anyway, the first sports car I noticed was an 85 IROC that a neighbour had. I thought THATS the car for me.

I think its a s simple as that.

The 3rd gens have a style and look that says fun, excitement, sexy, you get the idea........and yes it does have timeless looks. People still stare at the car. EVERYONE recognizes the car. Loads of people ask me about the car. Kids and girls want a ride in the car. Its just that kind of car.

It just seems that the style speaks to a lot of people for different reasons. I think that's why its the best. It brings out interest and passion in people.

Sorry, gotta go and start getting the car ready for spring.

ChillPhatCat

Some good points... the subtle change from 3rd to 4th is yet another reason to go with 3rd gens, many parts are interchangable (rear suspension, interior, exhaust, etc.) or easily modified to fit.

I disagree on prices though, $20k doesn't price it out of the market, 3rd gens were in the mid teens back in the '80's, and most basic sports cars start around $20k these days. It's all about marketing and image, the mustang gets plenty of marketing and the 4th gens got almost none... I'm surprised they got 10 years out of that platform.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

not in order, and my knowledge is of mostly 3rd and 4th gens:

1) Windshield costs way less than a 4th gen
2) More engine bay room, unlike the 4th gen whose windshield covers 1/3-1/4 of it.
3) Supposedly lighter than 4th and 2nd gens, with the same engine/trans combo and similar options
4) You can take about anything from a 4th gen that maybe makes the 4th gen better(besides MAYBE looks) and put it in/on a thirdgen. Outside door handles, dashes/door panels/center consoles, LTX/LSX/3.4/3.8 engines, lightweight 4th gen cloth seats, LS1 brakes, LT1/LS1 radiator and dual fans, LS1 plastic gas tank, etc. So much can be swapped over, not without some fabrication though.
5) The exterior "shell" of a thirdgen is sleek, modern looking. Was way ahead of its time and looks more modern than a lot of today's cars.
6) If you want to get an upper hinge repair kit from TDS, you only need one kit per door for a thirdgen. For a 4th gen, you need 2 kits per door.
7) This is a maybe(lacking knowledge of 2nd gens): Thirdgens probably had the most different models. For examples, the Recaro T/A, the 15th anniversary T/A, the TTA, the LT, the RS, the Z28, the SC, the 25th anniversary camaros, the IROC-Z, Player's Camaro, SLP Firehawk, Trans Am, Formula, Firebird S/E, Trans Am GTA...
8) Best handling
9) Wheels with a 4th gen offset OR a 3rd gen offset can be made to fit correctly on a thirdgen(advantage only over 4th gen)

codemonk84

Easily modifyable
Looks that are very recognizable and still amazing, even years afterwards...
Sleek, swift, inexpensive
Awesome lines...I must say of all the car's I've seen, none look as good as a well put together Camero or Firebird (3rd gen)...yes I know that's a matter of opinion/beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that

Maybe it's one of those "if you have to ask..." things.

MrDude_1

i like the way it looks.


thats it.


i have to replace every other damn part on the car in order for it to be acceptable.

BADMAN

iTrader: (13)

The lines of the car are what makes it for me. Longer cars look better. For instance, the Z06 Vette is performance wise awesome. But it looks like someone ran into the rearend and squashed it! I still want one though. Long hoods like our third gens give it a better styling. We also have t-tops,no matter how much of a leaking problem they have been on cars in the past, they are still sought after by many people. They are also rear wheel drive and with proper mods, handle quite well. Thats why I now own 2 Irocs. One to cruise(85 T-Top) and one to fly in(86 coupe). Badman

iflubyu

All good points made so far, here is another:

The 3rd gens are the apex of the GEN 1 SBC. The cars got lighter and nimbler, if not overly so. To me they mark the end of "Old School".

They look great to begin with, and the average Joe can tinker with one...


For very little money
without a computer degree (ok I have one and like tweaking my 00 vette, but...)
if you totally screw up you are rarely out more than 1000 bux.
They are all American and dont look like any ricers.
(I guy actually mistook my 00 C5 for a NSX parked in the other direction)
There are parts and mods galore, and usually at reasonable prices.


just my .02

OUTATIME GTA

iTrader: (2)

I concur.

Well, how it looks and feels.
Those who own 4th gen fbodies and vettes even admit it, they're fast, but they don't have the "feel" of driving the 3rd gen.

The looks and feel are priceless to me.
I'll continue to repair all the little crap and keep my 3rd gens rolling as long as I can.

TTA 1387

I've had both 3rd and 4th gens, along with a 1st gen my parent's had. They all had there good/bad points. But the 4th was just a better built car overall. My 84 Z28 was the worst of the bunch. Followed by the TTA and then my 96 WS6 being the best. The TTA was the better performance car stock overall but suffered the usual 3rd gen problems. The WS6 was just a better car overall. I loved the looks and power. The TTA ran 13.0 stock and the WS6 ran 13.50 stock. I think I had the best stock LT1 around at the time so it might have been a "good" one
It handled better than the 3rd gens in terms of smoothness. Maybe not all out g force numbers but everyday ride. And could still run with the TTA in the turns. Braking was the same as the TTA, good but not great.

I liked all 3 but I would give the nod to the WS6. It was just more fun to drive and live with everyday.

But my GTO is better than all of them. Just had to throw that in, but its true

Redarrow1

Depends on what criteria you are using to base your opinion. Styling is subjective. I've owned 4 third gens and two fourth gens. Neither generation is a prime example of quality, but as far as squeaks and rattles, my 4th gens are better. In terms of performance, my LT1 with auto and 3.73s would beat my 89 Formula 350 with headers. My 01 Hawk would beat them both. (although the LT1 and L98 were both better "street" cars than the hawk) Safety features, the 4th gen has all other generations beat. Comfort is probably about the same. I liked the way the third gen stores the t-tops better (I'm not sure why though) The 4th gens have more usable storage. The seats that are in my 01 look identical (minus the ET headrests) of the seats in my old GTA. Maintenance I give the nod to the third gen. Though neither car is easy, at least the engine in a third gen isn't under the windshield. As a personal note, my favorite of all my firebirds was my 85 H.O.

Anyway, if you take appearance out of the equation, I think you have to give the overall victory to the fourth gen.

bilms01

There are a lot of great reasons posted here about why the third gen is the best. If you really pay attention the what just about everyone is saying it is pretty much the same thing. Yea the headlights of my bird look terrible, the rear brakes are pretty much a joke, windows are slow, hatch doesn't work half the time. Top end speed basically non exsistant compared to others. But what it is really all about is how you deal with it and can get dirty doing something just to see if it works or looks decent. How fast can I make it go, how quick can I get it there. What can I do to make it stop once i get there. Then there is the added bonus we get from smokin' a mustang or rice burner because they look at our third gen and think it is just a slow rattle box till all they see are taillights. While other people are out fishing or hunting, I can be in my garage wondering ' how can I make this work', or 'how will this look'.

That's why I think third gen is the best, cause it will NEVER be finished. At least as long as there are 4th gen and corvette donor cars.

rideon1200

From a few post back about the new Camaro. I am sure the price will be closer to 30000 the 20000. Second from what I have read its more or less a camaro retro body on a corvette. How can you guys say a third gen is the nicest Firebird,t/a,camaro. How about 68&69. Or 71 camaro with split bumper. Or the 2002 Trans Am ram air. Come on guys get real.

ezliving4ume

iTrader: (1)

rubber ripping torque