JT

iTrader: (1)

I have a new relay (10094701) and just tested where the Red and Tan wire would connect and it shows complete continuity inside the relay, which would match what the service manuals I have indicate. Your copy doesn't appear to illustrate the same thing.

It would appear to me we're reading our material correctly, it just doesn't match each other.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

That's the way it seems to me also... The diagrams don't match. Funny, I'm pretty sure I've got one of those old style relays out in the garage too. LOL I'd wake every dog in the neighborhood if I went to look at it right now.

I've seen more then a few GM diagrams that aren't entirely accurate. It's not too shocking, just annoying.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

hot wired the fuel pump and nothing. guess the pump sat dry for to many years. i bought a 190lb from racetronix. they said 255lb is too much for a stock l98 and i took their word.

i figured i would run into problems with the 21 year old injectors as well so i got some bosch 3 22lb from southbay. great guy glad he is on the sight.
he also had a fuel pressure regulator that might come in handy.



i waxed the door looks like the paint will shine right up


both top of the windows do not have any cracks


kinda cool to be able to see the engine as i drive


could be wrong but i weighed the wheels several times. this is stock formula wheel


this is stock gta wheel with GSC tire

southbay08

will do oops! sorry wrong post

89rs454

That is one badass Firebird.

cIaRmOaCrZo

wow i didnt know 89 formula 350's were rare, or that desired. because this cheap little "buy here pay here" lot had one exactly like this one but a little higher mileage. black and everything. and some kid from my town baught it and ran the HELLLLL out of it for a couple weeks, and tryin to race everyone in town with it (including mine) and finaly blew it up and got it repo-ed. then another kid got it who went to my college a couple years ago and he tried fixin it, but didnt know what he was doin. and i never saw that car again...

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

lol you just described almost every third gen made.
ya not really rare or desireable. i think you guys in usa got 4000 89 formulas, with all engines, and most people would want the trans am or gta.
canada got 66 1989 formula 350's. of those 66 i dont think many have the original tires or less then 20 000 miles. if i could afford it i would get something different but im going to give this car a good home.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The correct block off plate for that hood is often missing. I finally found one a few years ago in the trunk of a Formula my buddy bought. It had a flat Firebird hood on it after someone didn't get it latched and had it fly up and trash the hood. Someone must have removed the block off before the accident. I'm running a 82-84 Trans Am honeycomb screen in my 91. It's as functional as open, but with a more finished appearance.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

great thanks for the heads up. i will keep a look out for one

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

a forum member sold me a honeycome formula hood screen. than you
i wanted to keep it open and this will help keep water out along the bottom.

the formula wheels that came with the car i found to be heavy. the tires are over 20 years old so i cant use them.
the GTA wheels are light but cant get any bigger than 245 and keep same diameter.
these CORVETTE wheels look to be a good replacement. 17 front 18 rear. 245 front and 275 rear. same diameter as stock.
these wheels are made out of magnesium. very strong and light. very rare to find a wheel made out of this material. they are made in italy just for the vette. my 91 trans am has the same wheels as well.

i also have a 2001 camaro ls1 rear axle with brakes and 3:42 stock gears and posi. i would not need spacers with this axle when i put it in.
at same time i have eibach sportline springs and all rear tube lca pan hard rl brackets.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It's a shame to modify a low mileage, original car... History/Restoration is really more geared towards restoration, documenting history, etc... There are other sub forums for sharing modifications if that's your thing.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Wow, I expected this to be a "I cleaned it up and now I am going to be proud owner of a stock beautiful 21,000 mile Formula" not "Here is my low mileage, rather rare car, here are the Mods I am going to do to it"

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

True my 81 turbo pace car is like that. Nothing Im doing to the car can't be changed back to stock.
I have been driving third gens for over 20 years. Still have my first one. For over 20 years I have always had trouble driving with original off road truck lift springs.
Car will not be cut up. At the same time I'm not keeping it in a museum so the next guy in 20 years can enjoy it.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

A car is only original once... You can say that everything can be reversed, but you know it probably won't ever be reversed. You can't take something apart and put it back together several times and expect it to be exactly like it was the first time, either. And it's not about preserving it for the next guy, it's about preserving it for everyone. There are plenty of common beater thirdgens out there to modify, not nearly as many original cars. But whatever floats your boat, just don't expect the crowd on this forum to appreciate your choice of modifications.

That car would be a million times cooler with the correct tail lights, thirdgen wheels, and the stock look.

neeb_usmc

iTrader: (2)

beautiful car!!

topduarte

iTrader: (8)

I thought I felt bad keeping my 45k mile plain jane LG4 z28 stock.

It is your low mile rare formula but I thought this was going to be kept stock.

Yes those wheels are lighter (they were actually $3000 option on the vettes 1998-99, but they were only a $995 option in 2004.)

But as Drew said, "whatever floats your boat."

zee28

Am I the only one that looks at all these pics and see a car with more then 20000 miles?I know they are bad pics but something doesn't look right.Did he store it outside with the hood up?Guess once it's cleaned up it will show.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Personally if I had that car I'd keep it stock as well; I feel bad potentially modding my 150k RS, but there you go.

Truthfully though, this is a car that has sat outside for a long time, and needs reconditioning.

While I echo the sentiments that a car is only original once, this car clearly is in need of some reconditioning. This is not the same as a 20k mile car that's been babied in a climate-controlled garage its whole life. This is a car that has had much the same life of a 100k mile car, it just had most of that life in a driveway, exposed to the elements as opposed to on the road where it could be trashed by the driver.

The car will clean up nice, surely, but it would need reconditioning to ever be a show car so it's kind of moot. It really stands out as a low mileage car to be enjoyed, IMO. Low mileage only goes so far on a car that's been neglected.

That said, I'd be more prone to do a real restoration on it, in the strictest sense of the word.

Interior pics?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I'm taking the description and the story at face value... From the pics it's really hard to tell the condition of the car. So who knows?

In the short period of time that the OP has had this car he's done more to change the car's identity then I've done to my 130k mile Formula in over a decade. To me that just goes against the purpose of this particular forum, and in a way it's disrespecting this forum's purpose. There's an entire forum for showing off appearance mods, another for wheels, etc. This isn't the place to do that. If the OP is returning the car to it's former glory that could be documented and shared here. If the owner wanted to post a bunch of pics of the car in stock form, I'm sure that'd be enjoyed too. This thread has just steered off topic.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

oh sorry guys i guess wrong area of third gen. it will be kept original but is not a museum car. it will not be drivin in the winter. it did spend the last 4 years sitting on a driveway. last 15 years sitting wasting away. if anything i saved it from a teenager that would have painted it purple, spray painted the interior black, butchered the stereo system and drivin it into the ground.
i already have a 81 turbo trans am NASCAR pace car thats 30 years old and is still bone stock. in another 30 years i will be dead and it will still be bone stock. i know what cars can not be messed with.
the original owner put it in his garage for 20 years and it never saw light. he then took it out and sold it to me. he only had a one car garage so 20 years of no garage just so I could have a nice car. just seams sad.

if a mod can take this out of the museum area and put it in correct spot for normal cars would be great thanks.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

kind of like my 68 year old rifle. its still brand new unfired. and it will sit another 30 years unfired. just because thats the way it has to be.

topduarte

iTrader: (8)

I understand it is your car and you can do with it but there is no way you "saved it from a teenager that would have painted it purple, spray painted the interior black, butchered the stereo system and drivin it into the ground. "

A teenager could not afford this car for what you paid for it. Even if a parent bought it for him/her, hopefully they will have common sense and not let the teenager "painted it purple, spray painted the interior black, butchered the stereo system and drivin it into the ground. "

It is a shame IMO that a rare car like this even though in the elements the last few years is going to modified and not kept original

That is why we get called the "Walmart ******heads with the crappy 3rd gen."

Sorry to vent but this just hurts the whole 3rd gen market IMO.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

It's his car and he should do whatever he pleases with it. I understand that there are not many low mileage survivors, but the ones that ARE still around and ARE in climate controlled garages will only keep going up in value, and thats what the owners want. This particular car will be tastefully modified and enjoyed, and I can understand that.

Some people just don't understand that not everyone likes a clean stock car. With my build/"restoration" I chose to fully modify my bird and thats the way I like it. It wasn't a 21k mile car but it sure as hell was one of the cleanest around my area. I certainly don't think of it as me ruining the car since I plan on keeping it until I die, and if it makes me happy, then I'll do what I please with it. I do consider all the aftermarket parts to be very tasteful that are going on and I think it makes the car worth more if done right. If you watch any of the auto auctions, pro touring style cars that are very modded seem to fetch about the same as what a nice clean original car gets because some people just like that kind of set up.

As for this formula, I don't know what the OP paid for it but to me it seems to be around a $4k-$5k car in it's current state after sitting outside for so long, low mileage or not. A car like this I doubt will go up in value much unless it was tastefully restored to original shape and possibly new paint as well. As I've said before, mileage is just a number and lower isn't always better.

Opher

iTrader: (1)

As someone who does restorations for a living I will give my opinion, not that it will really matter.

All the big dollar 3rd gens are low mile, rock stock. What do I consider big dollar?? 3rd gens that sell for $7500 and up. Yes it does happen. Those are the cars that are 100% stock, un molested.

Cars that are all original bring the most money because they appeal to the most amount of people. Once you start modifying a car, you severely limit your market.

I do a lot of mid 80s muscle cars at my shop, I know it sounds kinda crazy to think of an 80s Monte Carlo SS as a muscle car, or a 92 GTA as a muscle car. However they were the car to have back in the day.

It cracks me up when people say "Its just a 350 Formula, they made a ton of them" Yes they did make a lot of them, yes they were just cars back then. Yes they arent blazing fast by todays standards.

Guess what thats exactly what people said about the Chevelles, Camaros, and Novas of the 60s. They were just cars, they made a lot of them. They were raced, abused and crashed and nobody thought nothing of it.

Well fast forward to 2011, all those "nothing special cars" of the 60s are very sought after. I mean if they werent would companies really start producing entire bodies of these cars??

Im not saying that a 3rd gen will be the next $100,000 car, but you may see a early 1LE go for some tall coin one day.

The point is the cars that were desired back in their day will be desired again. The most popular cars will be the most remembered. I just finished reading a post of did you have a third gen in HS?? Almost everyone did or wanted one. Well now those guys that remember these cars back then are now old enough, are established, have a little disposable income and now they are going after them. Which in turn will drive the price of nice, un molested cars up.

Yes, this is your car. If you clean it up, detail it and put it back to original it becomes an investment item. From the sounds of it you acquired this car fairly cheap.

Like mentioned before, its only original once. Once you start changing the rear ends, wheels,etc its no longer original. Honestly just because those wheels where a $1000 option, they dont add $1000 of value to the car. The saw blades are original, however you can get away with the black GTA wheels.

It is the little details that will make this thing worth some money.

At the end of the day its your car, and you can do what you want. Personally I would keep it original, and work on making it original and correct.

Good luck with it, it appears to be a nice piece

Drew

iTrader: (58)

This isn't www.secondgen.org or www.rifleaficionado.com. I get what you're saying, but just because you're preserving stuff we don't care about, doesn't mean we're going to agree with you defacing your car. Corvette wheels on a Firebird are polarizing, you either like it or you don't. You like it, we don't. What you're doing is customizing the car into what you like. We happen to like the car the way it was. We got excited when you posted about the car because it was a low mileage original car. Now it's just a low mileage car. The changes you've made have made it not original. They aren't big changes, and they could be reversed, but if you remove parts they probably aren't going to stay in the same condition, or stay with the car.

You might not like our viewpoints, but we like the car better all stock then most people are going to like it with Corvette wheels, lowering springs, and upgraded brakes. When you bought the car you had something, now with your custom changes it's just another personalized Frankenstein.

Opher

iTrader: (1)

Well said and I couldnt agree with you more.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

here is a post that OPHER made about an all original yellow formula 350

"As someone who does restorations for a living, this car is very savable, no major sheetmetal replacement. Personally, Id touch up the rust spots as best possible, and drive the crap out of it. You never see these on the roads. "

HE SAYS HE WOULD DRIVE THE CRAP OUT OF A ORIGINAL YELLOW FORUMLA 350 and admits you never see these on the roads. another "my poo doesnt stink" guy that can do anything he wants as long as no one else does it.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

amorget drew said he doesnt care about my second gen thats just plain rude.
then drew says im defacing my car but he has driven his car over 100 000 miles, and moded it.
he says my mods are polarizing but he has dice hanging from the mirror of his own car
he says hes talking for everyone but he drives a car that he has done mods to and driven it into the ground.
he wants me to keep my car stock but goes ahead and drives his car into the ground and mods it.
he calls my car a personalized Frankenstein but himself drove his car into the ground and moded it to how he likes it. personalized Frankenstein? his car has dice hanging from the mirror.
AMORGET i do understand what hes trying to say. he is just the wrong person to say it.
its just sad really.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

He didn't buy the Yellow Formy w/ 21k on it, he bought it with the approximate mileage it has on it now. It wasn't in perfect shape and needed a descent amount of work. He is improving the car, and by "drive the crap out of it" he doesn't mean beat the car to hell and leave it to rot, he just means drive it for fun and not let it sit. An extra 30-40k on it isn't going to make a difference.

I bought a 91 Formula, 305 5-speed, R6P car that I plan on driving the hard. Don't see many of those around either, but I don't feel bad about driving it. The car had one wheel in the junk yard when I bought it due to a close encounter with the back of a Civic. Your car was not even close to that.

From reading your reply to me, you still don't get it. You got everyone very excited about finding a low mileage survivor and then you went and crapped on everyone's hopes. Don't expect a friendly response.

Opher

iTrader: (1)

You are 100% right. My **** doesnt stink. Look me up you will see the type of work that I am accustomed to doing on a daily basis. Opher Auto Wurx, Inc.

At the time it was posted, I dont know last year. I was trying to sell the car for a friend of mine. As someone who does and understands what it cost to do a restoration I was saying you could touch this car up and drive it. Yes, drive the ever living crap out of it. If someone wanted to get into a fairly rare 3rd gen on somewhat of a budget this would be a good car.

The particular car you are talking about has 98,xxx miles or something like that. Its not a super low mile, Jamaica Yellow 1LE GTA.

Its common knowledge that sitting kills cars. Things rust, things seize, things just stop working correctly when they are not used. I see enough of this every day. You're about to run into it with this formula. Its going to need a good amount of mechanical work to get it going. You should know what 4 year old gas will do to a system, and the injectors that were in these cars were junk when they were new, so what do you think varnished gas will do to them?

Point is when I say drive the crap out of it, I mean use it. Use it on nice days, when its not raining, when its not snowing,etc. There is a huge difference between driving a car and abusing a car.

However that Formula of which you speak of is now coming into the shop in the fall for a restoration. Not a sand and shoot, what most people think is a restoration, an actual ***** to the wall restoration. To put it in terms you can understand it would cost roughly 15-20k for what we will be doing to the car. Once its done, it will be something that most people couldnt even begin to understand.

Is the car worth that kind of money?? Right now absolutely not. Will it ever be?? Who knows. What I do know, is that once its done, back to 100% original, if he wanted to sell it, he would have absolutely no problem selling it, and selling it quickly for that very reason.

Either way, its your car and you can light it on fire for all I care. Put those wheels on it, change the rear end, change the springs. Nobody really does car. Just dont be surprised at the reactions you get, or the fact that it will be a really tough car to sell, despite the low mileage. Like Drew stated, at that point its just another 3rd gen, there is nothing special about it.

Opher

iTrader: (1)

jaygt,

I think you're missing the point. I dont know any of you, or the whole story. However if I had to guess, what Drew did has happened over years, maybe more. 10 years ago these were just cars, hell I remember seeing these cars all over. Now once in a while I see one on the road.

So when you find a super low mile one, one that hasnt been touched, hasnt been molested,etc. Its no longer just a car. You have something truly special. Something that isnt found every day. If the car had 121,xxx miles on it, Id say knock your self out, put the ugliest corvette wheels on it you can find.

However at the end of the day, the cars that are original and unmoddified will sell for the most amount of money, no questions asked.

Like I said, I dont care what you do with it. Just dont expect to modify it and people are going to give their left nut for it just because its a low mileage car.

Like that 92 Formula you refered to earlier. Its got more than twice the mileage of yours, however un touched, all original Id take that over a modified low mileage car any day of the week. I would venture to say most would.

And to your statement about the pro touring cars at the auctions, look what they're selling for now, they're cheap compared to the original ones. Most of those cars sell for about half of what is put into them. Thats the case with most moddified cars. What you see sell at Barrett Jackson for 65k, more than likely had well over 100k invested into it. Hell half the restorations you see go through the auction sell for less than whats invested.

jaygt

iTrader: (4)

who said i want to sell the car? i never said im a car dealer. i still have my trans am i bought in 88. i havnt driven it in around 20 years. its probly worth $4000 wow sure glad i kept it all original and stoped driving it.
who said i want peoples nuts?
its a $5000 car. in 10 years it will be worth $5000. i could restore it for 15-20 thousand and get $12 grand for it. any way you look at the car its a loss. no matter what i do its a loss. always will be. if i invested the money i would make money. your a pro and even you admited this. i bought it to enjoy. just like every other normal person on this sight.
do you understand what real cars are worth? if you walk into a new car dealership do you know what you will get for $5000? nothing and they will laugh you right out of there.
my friends are buying $50 thousand dollar bmw's , mercs, s2000's etc. one has a couple ferarris. thats the real world. they all , just like most people, think my third gens are cheap old slow cars.
its a $5000 car and im going to enjoy it like %99 percent of the third gen members. the %1 that keep their car under glass in a museum are different. they are not real car guys. they looked down on us guys in high school with the old muscle cars.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Actually, if you read what I said without being reactionary, I stated that you're trolling the History and Restoration board by throwing your modification of a low mileage original car at us. The difference between my personal car, and it's mods and what you're doing is that I'm not posting about them on the History/Restoration forum and expecting everyone to think it's neat.

You're the one starting trouble around here and posting off topic info... That's the textbook definition of trolling. So either clean up your act, or don't be surprised when the mods lock your threads, delete your posts, and eventually ban you when they get tired of constantly moderating your posts. Just FYI.

IMissMy86TA

I hate to pop in something... but here goes.
I own a 88 GTA with 21K on the clock and since it is one of 809 GTAs made that year with a 5-speed mine is kinda rare. Unmolsested. 100% original. I have also owned a 1957 Chevy with 70K documented. (it is sold).

with my GTA, I have modified the look by changing the tires/wheels. One for safety and one for looks. I hate gold BMW wheels. I am also tinting the windows so I can drive it the way I want. HOWEVER, I know about originality. I have my original rims and tires stored. tint can be taken off.
I can make it original with very little effort. Will I drive it?
very little, but when I do, I will enjoy it!!! Just my 2 cents for both sides.

IMissMy86TA

and here is the car

bitchin_buick

Jay > Sweet 2nd Gen! Is this the forum for arguing?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Of course I don't care about your second gen. It's irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I'm into thirdgens, not second gens, and it doesn't change my opinion. That's my prerogative. It's not a personal attack, or meant to offend you, just telling you that it doesn't belong here.


I bought it with 97,000 on the odometer in 1999.

I'm not asking anyone to like or approve of my dice. I've never posted a single picture of them here.

Am I talking for everyone? Or am I giving you some insight into why people were excited when you started this thread, and strongly disliking you now?

~30k miles over a decade isn't really driving my car into the ground. I don't really care what you do with yoru car, just don't post your modifications on the history/restoration forum. That's not what it's for. As a former moderator for this forum, I find it annoying that you aren't playing by the rules, and I'm being as friendly about it as I feel is necessary.

Who is better qualified to tell you how things really work then someone who's been there and done that? Yes I've modified my car, and I believed it was easy to reverse when the time was right. But I'm also smart enough to recognize that my car will never be the same as when I started. Most people (even seasoned members of this forum) wouldn't recognize a single detail on my car as being modified. It wears the stock appearance just like the 91 Formula in all the Pontiac advertisements from 1990.

I've also got a 91 RS convertible with twice as many miles as your car, that I've driven less then 1k miles in the last decade, which is completely stock, so by your logic I could do anything I want to my other cars, so stick it. No one is talking about my cars, they're irrelevant. If I wanted to post about them, and seek everyone else's approval, I'd do it myself, thanks.

Please review this thread from start to finish. You'll notice people were really excited and helpful when you played by the rules. At the point that you started going off topic we suggested you stop, or take it elsewhere. Now you're getting really off track and attacking other members because we don't like what you're doing, yet you're the one who posted, opening your actions to public opinion. Get it?

89rs454

Hey jaygt do what you want with your car man. It's a beautiful car no matter what wheels and mods you have on it. You seem to be a pretty cool car guy, just next time post in the Auto detailing and appearance.

92purplehaze

iTrader: (8)

i believe he posted in the right forum because the originality of that car is HISTORY. but really who cares? If it was a big deal someone would have taken his offer and bought the car for 10k

bitchin_buick

That is the point! The OP was a question about history and everyone was fine and Jay simply threw in a few things down the line on what he was doing (I don't think with the intention to upset people!) and a few people freaked out...... Oh No Call The Posting Police! Power trip people with too much time crack me up.....

JT

iTrader: (1)

Disappointed with the outcome here and both sides. The site exists for all ThirdGen owners. Obviously, there's going to be disagreements and differing of opinions when you get people together in any quantity. That's life. Adding the anonymous factor that the Internet provides, and that can contribute to the degree of such disagreements and stated opinions that some might otherwise not do face to face. ThirdGen is big enough that we should all be able to get along with each other, regardless of the differing of opinions and views, as long as it's for ThirdGens and within our simple guidelines.

The thread started out well intended with a low mileage Formula that is rare in Canada. Discussing the originality of the car to document it or help others restore theirs, or preserving or restoring it, is more what this specific section is about. It's when it become evident that would not happen, but instead, the car would become changed did it start to deviate from the focus of this section, and instead, may have been best in the Appearance and Detailing forum or Members Firebirds section.

It's like going to the V6 section for your V6 ThirdGen and discussing swapping in a 350. Or going to the TBI section for your TBI ThirdGen and discussing swapping to a TPI. You may not receive the warmest reception as some sections have their following.