red88tagta

iTrader: (14)

I've been noticing a lot of parting out ads on here and other places (craigs list) I was just wondering if there was any information comparing the oem production lists to actual on the road worthy cars there are now?

89rs454

Hmmm i would say theres more thirdgens in the South if that helps.

TBH seeing all the partouts is a good thing, that means pretty soon as in the next 10-20 years they will be a rarity, maybe not worth much but still a rarity.

rich5

i would also like to no

Jason E

With all the rednecks busy parting them out in the classifieds (wow, did I just say that??? ), the number gets smaller and smaller every day.

Dartht33bagger

Agreed, and it's not a good thing.

okfoz

The Less there are on the road the more mine are worth

maccamenzies

Still got mine on the road in Australia

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

It doesn't work like that. All the cars will have been parted, third gens with then be uncommon, and your cars will still just be lowly third gens.

I'm not into third gens because they may increase in value. I have them simply because I like them.

-srs-

Let's not forget that these are CAMAROS! The Camaro name is an American icon. These cars will eventually be valuable.

Duane's 91 Z/28

iTrader: (1)

So is the Firebird I'll say 2/5 to 1/2 are still on the road...or living/being restored.

89rs454

1,448,974 Camaros alone was made in all according to Thirdgen.org, so give or take half of that, which i would say is lower, around 300,000 Camaros in all left alive to be fixed up or already on the road. I'm from the South and i will always own my Camaro.

old z mzn

iTrader: (1)

here in southwest Ohio you rarely see one.if you do it's usually a beater....cash for clunkers killed a few

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Same here in Kansas. I rarely see them on the road or at car shows. At CamaroFest last year, out of some 150+ Camaros only 14, IIRC, were thirdgens.

JamesC

Drew

iTrader: (58)

What really happens when there are less cars on the road, is that owning those cars gets more expensive. Need a part? Well there are less of them in the junkyard because no one ever comes looking for those parts so the owner crushes them, or worse the owner never sees one so they're in his 'private' stash. The parts stores don't stock the parts, restoration places don't reproduce parts because there's no demand, etc.

It's a double edged sword.

Sparkytfl

I saw as many of them in the junkyard as I saw driving last summer.

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

3 more in the junkyard yesterday. 87 t/a, 90 and 91 rs. 87 and 90 were pretty rotted, but the 87 was worse and wrecked at the t-tops. Mine is on the road all the time.

redzee28

I picked my 85 z28 up before it was a gonner. Did some work to it and now i get all sorts of compliments and offers.

Artisan

Cash for clunkers killed a bunch of them. I saw several at the junkyard last year. Today there are 2 at pull a part and, they are fully stripped out. For several years there were usually 5 or 6 at any given time. You seldom see them on the road. Their are a few out here where I live but the are nearly all 91s or 92s. since there is a 5th gen Camaro it might help generate more interest in these 3rd gens. Nice ones are pretty unusual now.

Jason E

Some of you guys are WAY optimistic about how many of these cars are left. I'd say 10% AT BEST. Consider the AVERAGE car in the US right now is 9 years old. The newest third gen is now 19 years old.

Most of these cars are long gone, guys, whether we like it or not. Stop parting them out. I took my TA for a 50 mile jaunt last night, just for fun. Its finally rained enough in MA that the salt is gone from the roads. While I've considered selling it for a nice GTA, I'm sad to think of what will happen to the car if I sold it. I don't think anyone but me would care for it like I do. Sure, its only got 32,000 miles on it, but its "only" a Trans Am, not a GTA. Its "only" a TPI 305, not a 350. I think its special because you don't see regular Trans Ams often anymore, and its pretty well loaded.

Plus, despite looking like poop, it drives the way a brand new third gen would. Its that good. But, because it looks like poop, and its valued not much higher than poop (I only paid $3,000 for it), it will probably end up heading down the same road as poop if I didn't keep it.

By far, the most rewarding car to own of my 3 has been my IROC. I get in, turn the key, wax it a few times a year, and it rewards me by looking brand new and needing nothing. My RS has been a PITA for 5 years, and has $15,000 wrapped up in its $7,500 self. My TA is somewhere in the middle of those two.

Yet, I love them all...and I wish more people had more love for these cars. I watched a mint '91 Formula TBI get PARTED on here because with 120k on it, the kid couldn't get $3,000...so he parted a perfect car.

I hate this place sometimes.

prplroc92

iTrader: (2)

I live in wisconsin. Just went to the junkyards around here (wausau) this last weekend. Because of all the scrap prices going thru the roof. The yards around here are crushing everything as fast as its coming in. There is only about 1/4 of the cars or less. It almost impossable to find anything for a third gen around here.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Man, I'd LOVE to find a low miles car like your T/A for what you paid for it!

I also agree Jason, that maybe 10% are left at best, but I don't even think it's that high.

This parting out business is just getting out of hand though. And it's not like every last part on these cars is going to make other 3rd gens live either. It's more like, the "parter" makes a small profit in stripping/selling parts compared to what they paid for the whole car, and then junks the rest. Or like you said, some kid wants 3 grand, can't get it, starts stripping parts, sells $700 worth, then just junks it.

I'm not really sure what we should do about that as a community. I can tell you that on some other sites, parting a perfectly serviceable car is not tolerated. And you certainly wouldn't be allowed to advertize it in the classified section. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying....

Jason E

So, who do we petition to change the classifieds section? I'm sick of watching this. Will changing that section stop people from parting? Hell no. But at least a site that is dedicated to these cars will stop aiding the death of them.

I cannot picture deciding my TA is worth parting out because the parts might be worth more than the whole damn car. That Formula that I mentioned that was parted out was pathetic to watch. Another guy wanted to part out a Z03 Z28 if he couldn't find a buyer for it. He eventually did, I think.

This is just getting old to watch, especially on here. This isn't Craigslist...these cars deserve better treatment on here.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I'll gladly sign a petition. I too am tired of seeing perfectly good third gens get parted and junked.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon here and point to some other shortcomings of this site's administration while we're at it. I agree that parting out of a perfectly good car should not be allowed, and should be policed as closely as possible. That is beef #1 of mine. My second problem is the garbage posts and squabbling that go on all the time. The GMHTP picture thread was recently a victim of this. We finally have a respected media outlet that wants to cover our cars, and half of the cars people were posting had carb swaps or were in poor condition. That kind of behavior just fullfills the stereotype that thirdgens are stuck with. I went on a tirade and called out the moderators to clean the mess up and thankfully they did, but it should have been handled much earlier. If a post has terrible spelling, is pointless, or just shows a bunch of junk it shoud be deleted without debate. If the poster doesnt like it they can go post their junk on cardomain.

If we want media and aftermarket coverage for our cars, it's high time we as a community acted in a way deserving of that coverage. It's time we weed out all the BS, ban the idiots, and act professional around here. I'm not sure I'll ever be part of the boy's club enough to be a moderator, but I'm going to start fighting the BS regardless because I want what is best for the thirdgen community. Being over-run by immaturity and poor quality and content need to stop. The aftermarket support and even the value of our cars depend on it.

JT

iTrader: (1)

What members are doing (as long as it's within our guidelines) on the site, especially to their own car, is not a site administration fault. This is ThirdGen.org, the premier ThirdGen site. You're going to have a variety of (depending on your view) good and bad taste. You got all sorts of people involved. Some are 18, going to school, and using their ThirdGen as a daily driver as it was a cheap, used, car. Some are in their 40s who have a low mileage, stock, ThirdGen. Others have some modifications that would be a bit extreme (such as your IRS). ThirdGen.org was started for all ThirdGen owners - not just one certain group with a certain view.

Is it really any surprise, or the fault of administration, that young, cash-strapped, members are the buyers of those cars and use them as daily drivers when there was such a supply of cheap, used, ThirdGens? There's other, big, sites that are dealing with similar aged cars that are going through the same trend as we are.

When you get people together in this quantity, you're going to have differ of opinion and views. Is it our fault, or within our place to dictate, as to what members do with their own cars? Do you think shutting people out, due to their difference of opinions and views in regard to what they do with their own car, is going to change the real world?

At the end of the day, people are going to do whatever they want to their own car. Unless you want to sponsor them, you probably have little sway.

Regarding a proposal to restrict our classifieds to only parting cars that are beyond repair, while I can understand the concern to preserve the cars that are no longer in production and will only continue to decline, how do you propose one makes sure that someone isn't parting out perfectly good cars? Who will be the judge as to what car isn't considered part-worthy?

Drew recently mentioned being unable to really sell his IROC-Z for a price that others were surprised at the value he placed it as (low). If a ThirdGen like that doesn't sell for a decent value, what do you think is going to happen to some of the cars that actually need work? For example, severe rust on the floor pans? While someone like you may be able to easily weld in new floor pans to save the car, how many others could or would invest in doing that? I've seen many ThirdGens that look decent on the outside, but have rust, or holes, through the floor boards.

As far as your moderation comments, do you help by reporting posts? It's unfair to expect moderators to know everything that goes on by reading every single post. All moderators, like most community-based forums (personal or for-profit), are unpaid volunteers. Nearly all community-based forums have some sort of way where the public can flag inappropriate content for this very reason.

So many times when I see members speak out against lacking of moderation I often find they aren't helping out by reporting inappropriate content. Instead, they're either just sitting back and not report the content or they're participating in the issue themselves. It's so easy for people to sit back and criticize without actually contributing to help with said issues.

As far as the GMHTP thread, I completely agree with you that so many missed the point of that thread and GMHTP's request. I removed more than a few entries (or unrelated posts) since it began. However, in the end, is it really my call, or moderators' call, to judge which entries make it to GMHTP? Justin didn't exactly provide a list of requirements for the vehicle or a request for us to be a guard at his gate.

The proposal to ban "idiots" and just delete "junk" posts is certainly subjective. Given the frequency of some that turn around and complain that we're too restrictive and too sensitive would illustrate the different sides here and that pleasing everyone is not exactly doable. Besides, this is a "discussion" forum where discussion (within guidelines) is normal.

I think some are forgetting this site was started for all ThirdGen owners and you're going to find quite a bit of difference of opinions and views. We should be grown enough to co-exist with people that may not share the same opinion or agree with.

In ways I think it would appear this site is in the teenage years. Hopefully it'll grow out of it as the cheap ThirdGens get harder to find and start becoming more the classic.

89rs454

That's a retarted petition, for the simple fact that you don't know the persons circumstances, you can't tell somebody they can't partout there car. Come on people this is life! Just look at Ebay,Thirdgenranch junkyards so on so forth, like thirdgen.org would make a dent in all the thirdgen partouts. Get real!

White'89

iTrader: (8)

I myself am not against parting out. Given its taking more thirdgens off the road, but the parts from those cars go to help better another. I have needed a couple things for my car at one point and what do I do since there is no aftermarket for T/A foglights? Or that interior panel that has a big scratch on it.

SuperBeast666

When I bought my 86 Iroc-z in 98. Would get compliments here and there. But my 92 rs never fails to grab attention. I often wonder how rare these cars are getting because of this. I do see plenty on the road but 98% of them look like there on there last legs. I even had a guy tell his son it was a old ferrarie. Ha Ha. Must of been the racing stripes. Good examples of these cars are rare and between.

DeltaElite121

I'd say there's not a ton of them left compared to the overall amount, but my guess is a third of them are still around. Over here there's about 45-50 of them in the local junkyard I go to, and there's about 6 yards in the area.

As far as them driving, though? I'm one of four in my town.. but there's more of us. I know of three guys that are active on this site, two of which I didn't initially meet on here to begin with.

Rare? Not quite, but certainly uncommon.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It's actually pretty easy to put a guideline into effect to prevent the parting of complete cars. It starts with a sticky, and it ends with the moderators. Other forums I've been on, require that cars being parted have pictures of the critical damage posted. If the damage isn't severe, the thread doesn't stay. Community involvement determines if a car is really that bad. People will comment one way or the other when it's a publicized policy.

It doesn't put a huge dent in the act, but it keeps the parting of complete, viable cars off of the premiere Thirdgen enthusiast forum. The other forums I've been on that have adopted policies like that have no shortage of parts for sale postings, they just don't have the career butchers, and non-sense parting out threads.

The impact goes beyond the classifieds... It plants a seed of appreciation for the cars that grows into the rest of the forum. It doesn't stop people (like me) that go out and salvage good parts from the junkyard, for resale. Or parts I've changed out of personal preference, left over parts, etc.

89rs454

It's not like anyones parting a showroom 1le camaro or Firebird, all the camaros/birds i have seen were POS. And say they don't part them out.... they will still be setting out rotting away in the elements in the junk yard, so it's a win win for the guy that actually gives a **. These cars arent worth **** right now and i can tell that a lot of you are pissed off about that.

GTA50

I agree with you Drew. I could have bought a '87 GTA - 350 tpi/t-tops (Canadian car) for about $700. Didn't have the original rims but all the rest was there.

Problem? I didn't need another project car and it wasn't gone far enough to strip for parts.

As for the the OP, I see a Thirdgen on average once a week and there are perhaps 3-4 within 10 km of me (not including my own).

JT

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it's pretty easy to just draft up a simple 'no parting complete cars that are salvageable' guideline. But it doesn't end there. The issue comes in with the backlash from the other side, as well as in determining who judges what is accepted or not. Sounds like a scenario for a lot of drama, debates and arguments. Some appear to enjoy that more than others.

If you've been having trouble selling your IROC-Z, as stated in this post for a decent price, which I think is a good value, then what does that really say for cars that actually need work?

You've long been stating how these cars don't have the value that some think they do (or will). So where does that put cars that aren't as nice as yours - that apparently can't sell for a reasonable price - that actually need work?

Is it really the fault of the owner that said car might be worth more in parts than as a whole (at this time)? That sounds more like a market issue when the demand for parts outweighs the demand for the car. It's easier to sell a car, complete, than it would be to strip the car, list all the parts, deal with X amount of people over X amount of parts, ship parts, have left over parts hanging around, etc. The incentive to sell the car as complete would appear to be there, but the market may not be.

If someone can weld in new floor pans, which can be found for these cars, then what car really isn't salvageable with time and money. So where is the line?

I can't see how, for example, you can tell someone that they can, or cannot, part their own car on ThirdGen due to your opinion of salvageable or not. As you said, doing so probably doesn't put a huge dent in the act. So where do those part cars go? Probably outside of ThirdGen. Then the other side is going to raise issue because good, hard to find, parts (like uncracked dash pads) aren't in the community anymore and you're going to tell them to check eBay, Craigslist or some 3rd party site that popped up. And this helps the community?

Drew, you've long said how these cars aren't really rare, special or will be worth what some think they will be. Now you don't want people parting out ThirdGens unless they're deemed as not being salvageable?

89rs454

Listen to this song, Shooter jennings - mustangs and camaros.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It'd be self regulating. It wouldn't be any more likely to cause problems then any other rule. There would be an transitional period where some people would be upset, but in the long run it'd have a positive effect.

My Iroc isn't really relevant to the conversation at hand. I'm not currently trying to sell it, or part it. If it came down to it, I'd drop the price and sell it complete before I parted it because I value the car over it's true monetary value. As for the average thirdgen that needs work, almost all of them are worth more as a car then they are as parts.

See above... The values are low, but what Thirdgen.org is perpetuating is the myth that these cars are somehow worth more in parts then they are as complete cars. That's simply not accurate.

It is the fault of the owner if they choose to scrap a car for parts rather then sell it complete to someone who would be happy to give the car a proper home. The demand for parts isn't that high, anyone who has actually parted one of these cars can tell you that the bulk of the parts go to waste when the hulk is hauled off as scrap steel because most of the parts are too heavy, too common to be in demand, or otherwise didn't sell.

I covered this earlier, but I'll explain it again... As demonstrated every time someone posts a car and says "It's too rough, I'm gonna scrap it", people will reply and form a consensus of what is or isn't too rough. If it were a published policy, there are enough members here that would support it, that the bulk of the work of regulating the rule would be handled by the membership. The moderators might have their own guidelines, or they can just listen to the members.

I think it's really easy... This is an enthusiast forum, and true car enthusiasts aren't in favor of cars being crushed. No one is saying they can't do what they want with their car, a few of us are just voicing our opinions that currently Thirdgen.org supports the practice, and that we're sending a message that is hurting ourselves in the long run. Hard to find parts, are hard to find as it is. The majority isn't coming out ahead when someone parts a car for it's dash pad. I'd tell people the same thing I tell them now, check the classifieds. Parts will still be there, cars being butchered won't.

No, I've been saying they're ALL rare, they're all special, and not many are really due the hype over another. I don't believe in the idea of profiting from these cars, because in my experience there is no profit to be found. This isn't a new development, I've never been in favor of parting a car that was salvageable.

I don't expect to convince anyone. I don't especially care one way or the other what Thirdgen.org does about this stuff. If it really bothers me, I just won't read it. But your membership, probably a larger portion then you realize, certainly more then are telling you in this thread, don't like seeing perfectly good cars scrapped regularly in the classifieds. We're asking the administration, as enthusiasts and members, that we don't like it. Instead of trying to convince us it's impossible, maybe you should consider what we're suggesting.

eseibel67

This whole conversaion is just wierd. I'm not exactly sure what the motive is to prevent cars from being parted out.

The only one of the 2.5 million 3rd gens I'm concerned about right now is the one my son and I are working on. Banning parts cars is going to harm us guys that are trying to keep an old beauty alive.

The facts are that supply and demand are what determines people's actions. These things are going to get scrapped no matter what this enthusist site does. Don't try to restrict the supply, we need the parts.

Besides, anyone can write an ad easily enough to disguise a partout anyway.

Jason E

Wow...you're seriously missing the ENTIRE point.

There have been GOOD CARS that have been parted out. Like, you know...running, driving, decent cars. I watched two, on this board, with my own eyes. It was shameful. These aren't just rotted out ones.

I'm not pissed the cars aren't worth much. I want to see more people PRESERVE the cars so that there's more out there for people to enjoy, see on the road, etc. How can someone love a model line, and be ok with the senseless parting?

Do you get it now?

Drew,
Thank you. You're saying, better than I am, how I feel about it. JT, why can this simple policy not be adopted? I'm with Drew...seems pretty easy. Hell, I'll even help moderate.

JT

iTrader: (1)

I'm not really going to pick your posts apart like you did, but a few things stick out.

It would appear to be very relevant to this discussion. If you've had trouble selling your Iroc for a decent price, on and off for several years as you stated in the post I've linked to, what does that say for the cars that aren't so nice and need time and expense to restore? Or the cars that aren't an IROC, have the 350 or even TPI? The less desirable ones?

Some of the cars being parted out would probably be some of the same cars that you'd otherwise tell the owner that the car wasn't worth much if they popped into this section to ask about value.

The market would appear to have some input on this, Drew. As previously mentioned, there's been some that have attempted to sell the car, complete, and then when it didn't sell, they went down the path of parting it out - or threatening to part it out. Perhaps some are just too cheap? You've said that before, too, on how ThirdGen owners are cheap. Or the owners were asking too much?

There must be an incentive for some to part ThirdGens over selling complete cars. If they're getting the enough return in parts alone, then that does appear to indicate something. Otherwise, why didn't the car sell as complete?

I'll explain my view again. I find it difficult for us to dictate what one does with their own car. Yes, you are attempting to dictate what one does if you're suggesting that ThirdGen.org shut out people from parting out cars that you deem are salvageable. You're attempting to punish them by disallowing them from participating on the site. That if we shut them out of here, that things will be better for the community.

It's a stretch to say that we "support" the practice just because it hasn't been banned from the site. A lot of things are said or done on this site. That does not imply supporting, agreeing or sharing those views, opinions and practices by "ThirdGen.org".


Either there's a typo there or you've had anther 180 on us. I can point to a few past posts where you indicated that due to the volume of these cars being produced, that few are really "rare" or even "desirable".

Drew, I think you're a valuable member on the site with your experience and knowledge. However, in a way, you have some part of this as well when you frequently talk down about the cars (e.g., they're not worth much or desirable), the members (e.g., they hack their cars), the website (e.g., the Tech data is all screwed up), etc.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The motivation is preserving the cars. If you like thirdgens, watching them be destroyed regularly on an enthusiast forum is really annoying. Especially when no one is really profiting from the situation. It's our job to preserve and appreciate these cars, because without the cars, what's the point of this forum?

No it's really not. Go read a few "parting out" threads. Usually the seller is after one part. The rest is given a half *** chance at being sold and then it either ends up being sold as scrap metal, or to a junkyard which will only hold the car in the yard until the prices of scrap go up again. In both cases, the vast majority of parts are lost forever. They're not coming back, they've been melted down.

We have less parts available now than we did back when these cars had a higher value. Right now the supply is decent, and the demand isn't there, so it's a good deal if you're in the market. But, what happens if the car you're working on gets stolen, wrecked, or otherwise destroyed? You're back on the hunt, and there aren't any affordable projects because they've all been scrapped. And what about someone who has just decided to get into thirdgens? Again they have less to choose from. What happens if they can't find what they need? Are they going to be around to help support the forum, or the vendors who make parts for our cars? Are they going to be in the junkyards buying parts? There are plenty of parts available WITHOUT parting complete cars.

Maybe... But most would probably just move on.

JT

iTrader: (1)

I would like to be pointed some examples of these cars that you're speaking about.

My honest question is this. If the cars being parted out were as good as you indicate, then why didn't the cars sell as-is? Why did they only sell for parts? If Drew's point that prices of the parts alone don't really add up, then the owner is losing money by parting the car rather than selling the car. So are the owners just throwing a lot of money away because they enjoy parting cars as a hobby? Something doesn't add up.

People tend to follow the money. Apparently, parting is providing them the money that isn't coming from a complete car.

Or is this just an example of people speaking up, but when it's time to act, silence is deafening? There's been some examples of this where a car didn't sell as-is, so instead, the owner resorted to parting out. Where was these people when the car could have been bought as-is?

Maybe some share some fault in this by being too cheap that the owner resorts to parting out the car? I'm not sure?

Honestly, personally, parting or not does not personally impact me so I don't really have a personal reason to defend either. My goal is to try to do what's best for the community. It's not going to please everyone.

Reason why this simple policy cannot be adopted, is because (at this time), this thread shows that some are against it while others support it. It's not exactly a landslide. Some in support of this policy are the same who supported banning people who perform certain modifications to their own car ("dual exhaust", "harbor freight gauges", etc.).

Attempting ban people or posts that part out "good" cars is a form of attempting to control what others do that don't share your own view. I can completely understand the desire to preserve these cars, but I suspect that many, or most, of these cars that are being parted aren't the cars that you or anyone else would be willing to by as-is. If so, then this problem wouldn't exist, would it?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The intention isn't to pick apart your post, it's to address the concerns in manageable portions. I'm taking the time to reply because I care about the issue at hand.

The flip side of what you're suggesting, is that I'm leading by example... In my opinion, my Iroc isn't nearly as desirable as some people would think. The car is worth little in resale, not much more then I paid for it in 1998. I guess I could part it out. I'd make a couple hundred dollars, maybe even $1,500 if I really put my back into it. But that's a fully loaded, high end example, with tons of desirable and marketable parts. Most of the cars getting parted aren't in that condition and don't have many parts that would sell since they're equal to what most people are working with. There's no upgrade potential so people don't buy.

But getting back to the point, my Iroc is worth more as a complete car even if I sold it for less then my asking price. Even if it were worth more in pieces, I wouldn't part it because I don't agree with that practice. Instead I found a nice place to store it, and I've done so for going on 13 years now.

So? Seeing the value in preserving the cars to be enjoyed, and seeing resale value are two different things. The car has value, just not so much monetary (either as parts, or a complete car)

Thirdgen owners ARE cheap, that's why they own Thirdgens instead of luxury automobiles, vintage musclecars, or other classics. And yes, owners are asking and expecting too much in most cases. The fact remains that most of the time, when a car is scrapped here, it's so the scrapper can salvage one or two parts. A few of the remaining parts might sell here, but they could just as easily be found in a salvage yard, or from a donor car which was beyond repair. In the end the bulk of the car, and it's parts get sold for scrap steel and are lost forever. In the case of "lesser" cars even more is discarded as waste since they have less to offer.

The incentive is the premise of quick cash, an immediate source of cash flow from something the seller isn't using. However, there's no way to know what will actually sell until the car is disassembled and parts are gone. By the time most people figure out they could have made more money letting the car go for less, it's too late. And why wouldn't parting the car be an easy answer? Everyone else is doing it, right?

No one is saying ban them. Just moderate the threads in the classifieds. You're not saying that people can't part their cars, just that they can't do it here without showing the car was truly beyond reasonable repair. It's not a punishment, it's just cutting off the market for destroying Thirdgens for a few parts. Most of the time, people parting Thirdgens aren't part of our community anyway, they're exiting the hobby, or are trying to make a quick buck at our ultimate expense.

No it's really not a stretch at all... To the casual observer, the classifieds are there specifically to give the sellers a market, and there are very few guidelines provided to give it a direction. It's not even frowned upon by anyone except the occasional member that speaks out.

Again, you're talking about monetary value vs. historical and hobby value. Is the average thirdgen unique? Yes, but so are all the rest. So then is it truly unique? Well, yeah, sorta. Does that make a V6 Firebird with every option really "rare" ($$$$ buzzword!) and "desirable" ($$$$ buzzword!) just because there are very few EXACTLY like it? Not in the sense of being some high dollar car that someone is going to sell and retire to the Bahamas.

I can be critically honest. These cars aren't worth much money, they're worth even less in parts unless you're dealing with a top of the line car (even then it's iffy). The average thirdgen.org member is an ignorant fool, I've done more then my part to change that. The website and forum do have problems, again I've done more then my part to change that. It's not reversing my position, it's defining my position in greater detail.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Here's a Camaro from the cars for sale board here... Currently it's listed as a car for sale, but nicer cars have gone from the Cars for sale board to Parts for Sale...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/cama...-91-build.html




This car is as trashed out as the average Thirdgen, aside from no obvious body damage. Technically it's a B4C, but most of the parts are missing, so what's it really worth? In parts I see a set of wheels that no one really wants, a set of $50 tail lights, a 140mph instrument cluster that might pull $150... A few of the body parts might sell, but not on here unless someone just happens to be local. So let's say the seller scraps it, and makes $500 (extreme long shot, but it's possible with a couple months of Ebay, Craigslist, and the classifieds here... Who wouldn't pay that much for that car if they were looking for a project?

If you look in the parts for sale forum a bit you'll find a couple "Parting out" threads. It's almost always the same deal. The seller has a car that either has minor damage, a paperwork issue, or they just want a couple of the larger parts for themselves. What follows usually happens something like this... "Hey dude, do you have this part I need?" and the inevitable reply is a no, or it's too big to realistically ship, or whatever. The seller MAYBE sells a few parts, but as usual the bulk of the parts A) don't sell here, and B) end up going with the car to the crusher.

The owner is usually lazy, or disgruntled, or just after the fast cash. In the end of their part out, I would bet good money that most don't clear $1,500.

Most of the time when a car is posted for sale in one piece the price is out of line, and usually the car is in the middle of nowhere and incapable of moving under it's own power. Further, we're enthusiasts. Most of us already own one or more Thirdgens... A seller would have better luck selling ice to an Eskimo.

All we (the vocal minority) are suggesting is that Thirdgen.org take a stance that supports preserving the cars. It's really in the best interests of the forum and the community if you think about it.

JT

iTrader: (1)

Anyone who thinks your IROC with 61K miles, T-Tops and 350 would be worth more in parts than whole is probably not rational. So how many have parted out a car like yours?

The point was if you're having trouble selling own car (one that would be considered a good example of a ThirdGen) for several years off and on, with a price tag of 6K (per your post), what do you think those cars that need work or don't have the IROC nameplate are going to be worth?

As opposed to the car sitting and rotting outside while parts deteriorate out in the elements? Or the car get sent to the scrapper with good parts still intact?

If people really are throwing away thousands of dollars for just a few hundred dollars, do you think that trend would continue on its own? That the same people can continue to throw away 3/4s of the money for 1/4 quick cash?

I know there's a lot of people selling parts from a junkyard where the car was already sent off to. If they don't get the parts, then those parts will be lost when the car is scrapped/crushed.

What happens to the car that couldn't be sold for the asking price and that cannot be parted out on ThirdGen because others deem that it's salvageable? Craigslist? eBay? Another site? Or it continues to sit outside and rot? Or it gets sold for scrap? Are any of those any better? As you previously said, this isn't exactly going to put a dent in the problem. You may have just sent the inevitable problem somewhere else. The end result might still be the same with an additional one. Not only one less ThirdGen, but one less source of parts in the community. Instead, it's now scattered between Craigslist, eBay or sitting in some junkyard that few may ever know about.

If the car was in demand or worth the value, someone would have probably bought the car before the point of parting it out occurs.

You bring knowledge and experience that I sincerely appreciate. I'll be honest that while your frequent pessimistic views of the cars, the members sometimes helps (such as addressing a few valid issues), it's also bothering as I think it sometimes brings things down in the environment.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Here's the progression for many thirdgens on this board:

--Young broke guy buys beater thirdgen. Entry price? $800, but young guy lowballs and scores car for $350.

--Young guy goes home, makes an account, has enthusiasm for thirdgens (which is great), and talks about all the great plans he has for the car, while in the same sentence saying he has no money so it's a "super tight budget build".

--Rattlecan enters.

--Young guy has trouble getting decent parts, because $30 is too much to pay for a correct, new part. Starts raping 4th gens in the junkyard.

--Despite this, somehow manages to switch hoods 4 or 5 times in two weeks.

--Lack of tools or lack of money (but probably both) prevent guy from getting much beyond the rattle can, or a few of the rat's nest wires. Young guy begins to realize that there is no such thing as a budget build on a $350 car, that it takes about $5k just to put it back on the road with mediocre reliability.

--Young guy realizes he's too far in over his head.

--Young guy finds new $800 car that is worlds better than the first one. Lowballs to $350. Young guy then either lets the first one rot in the yard, or just ends up half-assedly parting it out, after frankensteining what he can of the two vehicles together to form a new $500 beater. Rattlecan makes an encore performance, before the second vehicle is also parted out.

I think the point here is that yes, our cars aren't worth much, but that doesn't absolve people from the damage they do to the hobby by parting them out all the time. Are some cars too far gone? Sure, but all it takes is time and money to resurrect any one. Are most of the cars worth it? In the eyes of many no, but that's not really a concern because the majority of owners with the $500 cars that are in rough shape have neither the time nor the money to have to cross that bridge, so the car just gets parted when a "better" beater shows up. So it's not so much that there's a conflict of interest in parting out cars that aren't worth much, it's the conflict of interest in parting out a perfectly decent car when you are an enthusiast.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

We'll just have to agree to disagree... If you don't get it by now, you're never going to get it.

I'll let someone else speak up on the topic, I've invested enough of my own time on it already.

I can't imagine why I don't have a cheerful disposition about this site when it's gone downhill in the last decade instead of getting better.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

This is a very healthy discussion, one that I believe we MUST have. I see JT's point completely in that it's hard to police what other people do with there OWN car. But I am tired of seeing decent cars parted for 5 or 6 parts and then junked.


So, what do we do ? Maybe afew of us have to try to police some of these goings on around here. Maybe we need to apply some peer group pressure or a 'wall of shame' or something.

I mean, you can't stop someone from parting their own car. But maybe we need to educate them that parting their 3rd gen doesn't mean you'll strike gold. It means you'll have to bust your butt, for less profit than you think, and ultimately junk the 95% of the car which is left. Maybe we need to show them that it's easier and financially better for them to sell it whole.

JT

iTrader: (1)

This History/Restoration section is really all about preserving ThirdGens, isn't it? Outside of this section you'll find a section for LSx/LTx swaps, which is another debate. Some on here don't like seeing people swapping that powertrain as they feel it's not pure. You'll then find a section for 1/4 guys who may have a gutted and highly modified ThirdGen that may not exactly represent your idea of the ThirdGen. You'll also find some extreme paint jobs, or wheels, in the A&D or Wheels/Tire section that you may not feel represents the ThirdGen. The point is, the site is shared among a lot of different people with different tastes and different goals.

We may not personally agree with everything said or done on this site, but I'm uncertain that it's up to us to attempt to enforce rules as to what people do with their own car. And that attempts to do so will not send the issue elsewhere while still having a negative impact on the community when those parts get scattered across the Internet or sit in an unknown junkyard after the owner couldn't get rid of the car because nobody would buy the car as-is.

Your previous post about the white B4C is probably an example. Car has been reported by the owner as being wrecked. Car has been sitting in a barn for 6 years. Car also is missing the B4C parts and the original powertrain. It's probably no guess that car is not going to have a good outcome unless someone steps up and buys the car as-is.

Really, it doesn't personally impact me as I'm not one parting out cars. But I attempt to consider what's best for the community while using feedback from staff and members. I'm not really sure I'm convinced on this one, but that doesn't necessarily mean game over. If it were just me, things might be different. I'd might start by dedicating the site to Third Gen Firebirds only.

scottmoyer

Chazman,
No offense, but people don't really listen here. I have outlined so many times to people on these boards that it's cheaper to buy a car in decent shape than it is to buy a car for $1200 and build it into a nice car. That 150k mile car is still 150k mile car when rebuilt, but now at an extreme price and it wasn't enjoyable from day one. If they can afford $300-$400 a month on repairs, then they can afford a payment. Enjoy the car now, not years from now, if ever! The peer police and pressure might work, but only if people listen.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Hey now!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Peer pressure doesn't work... It's up to the Admins and moderators to steer the direction of the site/forum. Right now thirdgen.org is a free for all, any topic about a thirdgen is on topic and acceptable. The documentation, and preservation aspects are lacking, so there is very little to attract people with those interests to this forum. But there are plenty of teenage "bad idea" threads to attract more teenagers with bad ideas. Meanwhile anyone with half a clue gets sick of seeing it, and answering stupid questions, so the forum suffers when they leave.