Linson

i read somewhere on here that the respect just isnt there yet [for our cars] and it's true. at car shows, or generally speaking with muscle car owners/enthusiasts, it is very common to hear, on the subject of 3rd Gens, that 'they just werent very fast.' that is not withstanding the fact that alot of these same people were just turned off initially by the 3rd Gens' futuristic, more aerodynamic than muscular body lines. Nonetheless, if the performance of the earliest 3rd Gens was setting the world on fire, alot of those people would have come around.

so, this is something that 3rd Gens have going against them, and that 1st Gens have going for them. 1st gens have no desendents to be compared to, and are generally considered superior overall in performance to their 2nd Gen predecessors. 3rd gens were considered a radical departure, stylewise, from their predecessors, and, be it accurate or not, a further decline in performance. compounding the problem is that the Fourth Gens are considerred to be a major improvement in performance. in fact, the 90's, with the arrival of the LT1 Fourth Gens has widely been penned "The Rebirth of the Muscle Car Era" or some **** like that. 4th gens were dominating both 5.0 Fox, and SN-95 Mustangs, where 3rd gens had gotten a reputation (for reasons involving broad circulation of lesser L03-type F-bodies) as prey for 5.0's.

what do our cars have going for them? stunning looks for one, unlike anything before or since. and best of all, best of all, they are not so sacred that you cant mod them - read: make use of modern technology to keep their performance relevant in todays world of 400 factory horsepower pony cars.

i realize that not everyone is going to mod them right or well, and alot of beaters and hack-jobs will have to fall by the wayside, but i look to a day when people will feel fear, or dread, or respect when they see a 3rd gen approaching in their rearview and think, "ya just never know what somebody's got in one of them Third Gen F-Cars that are 300-800 pounds lighter than my 4th Gen, 5th Gen, Mustang, Challenger, Old School..

fact remains, speed and power are a requirement for Muscle Car Club membership.

Linson

fair enough. i think my only problem with it on a fourt gen is the way the hood meets the front facia making it appear to have four nostrils instead of two.

ZZ3 Z28

Holy crapoly! I thought I was the only one who thought this. The 5th gen cartoon Camaros are in no way on par with '69's. They have nothing in common except the name.

Dartht33bagger

I think as long as it isn't appearance mods it's fine. Suspension/motor/chassis mods are great and only add value in my mind. Appearance mods always ruin cars for me though.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Speed and power? About 85% of 1st Gens and 95% of 2nd Gens could not touch a good 85-92 LB9 or L98 car in any area of performance on their best day. That is the problem. False perception. It's from the 60s/70s so it must be fast! I know people that think those mostly 15 second 1st Gens are all faster than 4th and 5th Gens even. They only remember the few low 14 or high 13 second cars which was phenominal for the day, or the modified ones. As time goes on and 1st/early 2nd Gens become more unreachable, I think people will probably start looking at the more affordable 3rd Gens and realize this. The LT1 wasn't even an L98 destroyer, we're talking tenths here, the LS1 yes after about 40 MPH and 3rds are still known to handle better. Not to mention our cars are easier to work on and seem to be generally considered superior looking. But yet again, we are digressing into the same discussions that we always have to have weekly in here it seems. Speed is not everything, the 5th Gens have the same deal against their main competitor that our cars did with the top models, drivers race differences. That doesn't take from their value as they are still popular and our cars were far more popular in their time than the 5th Gens are today.

NCGuy68

From a historical and value perspective, any interesting 3rdgen car will be more desirable if original and left unmolsted in the future.

This has been happening with the 1stgen cars and Vettes for a numbers of years.

Linson

i agree with you. i've been saying that all along - that its a false perception. all i'm saying is that the reason people think all those cars from the 60's and 70's were fast is because people modded them, in effect, making them fast.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

I really don't think that having an army of fast, modded Third Gens is going to change what people think they could do stock in the same way that people have misconceptions about the 60s cars. Especially if it includes modifying mint lower mile examples to do so because it will be seen as a shame to do so. 1sts are thought of as fast because they were very fast compared to the 17-18 second or slower regular cars on the street back then, they're easy to mod and make faster, and they're the originals. The fastest factory 1sts oustide of a COPO car ranged from about 13.9-14.5, which is L98/LB9-T5/LT1 G92 territory.....20 years plus after 1sts did it. At the same time, even though our cars made 2nd Gens look slow, regular passenger cars and sedans got faster also. Look at where they are today, faster than most 1st Gens! It wasn't until the LS1 that there was a significant improvement in top model performance. (which is the only thing most people look at) So anything with an LS engine is now thought of as super fast, because they eventually bested what 1st Gens could do more than 30 years earlier. The other thing that people neglect is that our cars are performance machines, not just quick straightline cars. That is what will always make them superior to me, even though I'm a big fan of all the way back muscle.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah go do some back road carving in a factory IROCZ suspension with the big 36/24 mm sway bars. Do it with a stiffer lowering spring too on good rubber. These cars are down right scary. They just stick so well. My 4th gen non ws6 doesnt hold a candle to the iroc in handling and its on wider tires. That will all change once I start stiffening the suspension but the 4th gen is a tad bit heavier and has tiny 30/19mm sway bars.

burnout88

I truly hate that hood. It looks ugly and does not fit the lines on the car. Want to cut the value of your car in half. Install that hood.

Jason E

Damn...its good I ain't sensitive. Don't hold back or anything

The way I look at it, its a damn hood. It comes off. The stock intake goes back on. Nothing is permanently altered. I would not put it on if it wasn't functional...I HATE non-functional scoops. Dumbest thing ever. I've never liked the louvered IROC hoods, and non-functional "ram air looking" scoops are even dumber.

I guess I've always had a thing for ram air since LT1 cars. As for third gens bringing performance back, and being as fast as 1st gens, I totally agree. The image of slowness was ingrained in people by the plethora of LO3s and LG4s, as well as LB9 autos. This particular 5 speed car I have is night and day compard to my A4 LB9. Its amazing what 25 HP, a stick and 3.08s can do

At the same point, I had this same argument with Drew months back, and IZ2GR8 and I have argued the following since AOL IM days 3rd gens do NOT perform as well as 4th gens in a straight line, stock for stock, on average, at all. There. I said it

Yes, on the perfect day, with perfect weather, with the handful of G92 cars built, they may run with LT1s. But lets be honest. I am as inexperienced as they come...I've run at the track ONE DAY. My FIRST run EVER...warm engine just off an hour's drive...10 year old Eagle GSCs hard as rocks...no burnout to marr my precious paint...I clicked off a 13.96. This car has a 13.7 in it...I can feel it. I just can't drive

Now, how many 3rd gens can I do that with? Yeah yeah, I know...my 2.77s hold me back in the IROC. But even with 3.27s, will I be able to do a 13 second run that easily? I don't think so.

Moral of the story, after hijacking my own thread? ALL 4th gen V8s got the goods...posi, disc brakes, the best V8. All were as fast as the fastest 3rd gens. 10% of third gens produced could maybe hang with an LT1. That, in my mind, makes the value and rep of third gens poorer than it should be.

Guys on here arguing that L98s can hang with an LT1 sounds as silly as LT1 guys on cz28.com saying LT1s can hang with LS1s. Sure...on the right day, with the right breeze, with the right conditions, maybe...

Richboll

I don't agree with that. I had an off the showroom floor 69 SS Camaro 350-300 hp 4 spd that was bone stock and I was able to consistently run low (14.0s) 1/4 runs. My buddy had a stock 67 SS 396 Chevelle 4spd and he was able to run high 13's (and that was before we put in a 427 with a tunnel ram) These e.t.s were with street tires. Now to get back on topic, I prefer the all original low mileage look. I go to many car shows in N. Alabama and I rarely see a 3rd Gen, and when I do it's usually not a nice one. That being said. it's your car. Do what makes you happy. Just remember, how or whatever you do will not be to everyone's liking, as this thread shows. Just tell them, "If you don't like it..Don't look at it"

cerberus

From my collection of old hot rod mags, this is Car Life testing two of the baddest muscle cars to EVER hit the street! Real test for the day.

13.92 in the 1/4 0-60 in 5.7sec.


Our z-28s in general would kick the stink out of yesteryears muscle cars.

My 85 LB9 is extremely fast for a stock muscle car.

When the LT1 was made, that started a new ball game in performance. Huge power, computer controlled, faster computer processors, more research done on engines etc.


By scotiapilot at 2012-02-13

By scotiapilot at 2012-02-13

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To be honest you'd be surprised man. 2.77 gears, 245/50/16 street tires, hooker shorty headers, flowmaster catback, and 2800 stall. 13.86 at 97mph. Thats on par with most stockish well driven LT1 cars. My 99 LS1 bone stock with 2.73's went 13.4 at 104 in abit warmer air.

On slicks the L98 went 13.63. With some intake mods and 1.6 rockers on drag wheels/skinnies and cold air, it went 12.95 at 103.8. My buddy's bolt on LT1 with 3.73's/tune, stock stall automatic on street tires however went 12.96 at 106.9 that night.

So they can run close....

Jason E

OK, fair enough...understood. But, how much did those Hookers, Flowmaster and stall help the car? I admit, I cannot launch for crap because of the 10 year old tires. I have an SLP catback and CAI, and I ran a 13.9 with no prep, no burnout, nothing.

I honestly think my IROC is a good half second behind. I'm running it in May, so I guess I will find out! It also has the benefit of 2 year old G Force Sports that seem to grip well off the line...

58mark

iTrader: (3)

guess you like the firehawk better? me too

Richboll

Well, it was only a few years ago that I tossed the time slips from the Great Lakes Dragway at Union Grove, WI. so I know the numbers I gave were good numbers. The problems with the Hemi's back then were that they would not stay tuned and they could not hook up off the line and would smoke the tires just about anyplace else when someone put the pedal down. Those polyglass tires just had no grip. This is just an "I was there." I miss that Camaro..now...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To be honest i dont know, never ran it stock. But I've seen stock L98's there run mid high 14's, so I think i cut a solid second off my times. Converter helped the most. 1.88 60 foot on street tires is not too shabby. Stock stall would never get below 1.98-2.0 I bet. My LS1 with stock stall 2.73's would not go under 2.0 60 foots. I could launch in the middle of a rain storm and not spin tire til well past 60 foot. It just has no ***** below 3K rpm like the L98's.

If you run 13.9's with just those mods, you got a strong running car or have very good air. In PA, the DA never got much below 1500 ft on great days but when I went 12.9's it was 188ft. Here in TX it was -870 ft last week and i've seen better air days... All makes a difference in times.

backgammon7

On the original topic, A car is nothing but an assembly of bits of steel, aluminum, plastic, and cloth that have been made into a mode of transportation. In reality, they are worth nothing more that a few scrap refrigerators. The real value of a car is in the time, memories, and passion that it carries with it wherever it goes. A car takes mothers to the hospital, babies home for the first time, children to school, parents to work, families on vacation and to ball games, recitals, etc. They process in funerals, and lets be honest, some of those babies were probably conceived in a car. Some cars were bought by enthusiast, and were their pride and joy.Deciding whether to mod or preserve/restore a car is deciding how you want to blend someone else's story with your own. That is why I'm in this hobby, partly for the cars as machines, and partly for the stories and experiences they carry, that may sound silly, but it's the truth.

On the other topics, I like the smooth look of the Birds, no on the hood, and I don't care how the various generations of Fbody compare preformance wise. They are from different eras, with different levels of technology and limitations. They should be compares to their contemporaries not each other.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Well said. I agree.


You got something that's original, desirable, and in good shape... it should stay that way. The fact that the car has been repainted, has mudflaps, and a pinstripe change things a little....

I think you should leave it stock. The only other thing that I think is acceptable is to gut the drivetrain and put an LSwhat drivetrain in it. Swap cars always have quirks, though... but if you could get it running like it came from the factory that way you would improve your own enjoyment out of it and improve the value of the car I think.

People arent going to take a 69 SS and be irritated that it had the stock 396 yanked in favor of a GM crate 572 big block. You know what I mean? Some engines are just intrinsically better. Sure there will be people who preferred the stock engine, but I dont think it would hurt the value much, if any, if it was replaced with something that was truly better. In our case with thirdgens, the obvious improvement is an LS drivetrain. And I would argue an LS1 is a far bigger improvement (value-wise) over an L98 than a GM crate big block over a factory first gen big block engine.

Also, I think the nostril hood is tacky and hideous on fourth gens and third gens. Gross. The Ram Air I hood isnt too bad. Doesn't look good, but it doesnt look bad. The RA II is just uber tacky. It's like dual carbs on a high rise intake with a fake blower on a hole cut in a hood tacky.

eseibel67

Physiologically impossible in a Third Gen.

KMK454

The funny part is if we took a time machine back to the 60's, every car wouldn't be a muscle car. There'd be many four doors, 6 cylinder cars roaming the streets. For every big motor SS there'd be several small motor four doors running to the grocery store. Just go to a place like the Old Motor Blog, who routinely posts historical city and parking lot pictures; you'll see spotting sports cars is a rare event, just like it is today amidst the sea of SUVs and econoboxes.

The other issue is the perception of speed. Bone stock, those old muscle cars and pony cars were quite quick, but between their weight, archaic chassis, bias ply tires, and 3 and 4-speed transmissions, they weren't as blisteringly quick as we thought. If anything, the 87-92 Camaros, properly optioned, were the first time in decades that modern sports cars matched and/or surpassed the 60's benchmarks. We're not even talking about handling and braking, just straight-line go.

Nowadays, of course, there are plenty of 60's muscle cars with modern radials, suspension components, and built motors that aren't original. Also, there are far more SS, Z/28, and special edition 60's cars than there were 40 years ago... but I sure don't see many 6 cylinder firstgens these days.

IMissMy86TA

I hear ya.

BUT.. you always hear abt the 396 being a monster... But 0-60 in 6.8 seconds?? My GTA can do that without mods! a 91 could beat it! Keep in mind the 69 is an auto though.
see:
http://www.motortrend.com/classic/ro...n/viewall.html

Now the 1/4 mile it would be within a second but he would beat me.

our TPI cars are performance/muscle.

Linson

no argument here. to the contrary, these are the same arguments i've been making for years.

Jason E

Man, you guys are relentless on a lousy pinstripe and mudflaps I put on to preserve the finish I have never looked at mudflaps as being a detractor from any car. Maybe its because I live in the Northeast, and cars everywhere have them.

If I painted the bumper, the hood and replaced the spoiler, the paint is better than anything GM ever did, so I don't see that changing anything!

backgammon7

i assume you are talking from experience lol? that comment was made towards cars in general.

ZZ3 Z28

0 to 60 mph in 5.7 seconds for the '69 Charger and it will get beat by a 4-cylinder Mazda 3, 5.1 seconds; a Subaru Impreza WRX, 5 flat; and a VW GTI, 5.4 seconds. Of course, the 3, the WRX, the GTI all had four decades to work on it.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im just givin ya a hard time. I think the pin stripe works a LOT better on the birds for some reason and the mudflaps are for a purpose so I dont mind them.

I think that car is nice enough and low enough in the miles that you should leave it be, I only say that because it's in such amazing condition... they're only stock once. But if you decided to mod the hell out of it, it's not a super rare version, just a very nice example. I couldn't fault you either way.

burnout88

If you want a 4th gen hood, and 4th gen motor/performance it would be cheaper to buy a 4th gen. What's next the 4th gen interior?

It's ok to do light mechical performance mods to an original car that can be put back. Headers, maybe some TPI runners, gears, and a reasonable cam. The cam and gears no one can see. But do not destroy the look of the car by trying to make it look like a 4th gen.

Dartht33bagger

That is the worst. The fourth gen interior swap is incredibly ugly.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Uh, not really
I don't alway have sex in a 3rdgen but when I do, it's in a ttop or a vert 3rdgen..
Stay horny my friends.....

KMK454

Not a fan of the nostril hood... I do like this VHO hood, though:



Gauges on that hood:

Jason E

1) I absolutely agree on the pinstripes-on-a-Firebird thing. Note, I have not nor will not put one on my IROC, nor did I put one on either of my previous RSs. But on a Bird, with the way, the front fender drops down towards the nose, I feel like it helps accent the more dramatic curves of the Bird. For the record, people can give me a hard time, and I welcome it If I don't want people's opinions, I shouldn't open myself up to them! I love people that get butthurt when they don't hear what they want.

2) I think the car will probably stay close to stock because of what it is. A 27k mile, 24 year old car, has defied most odds. I guess I feel it might be appropriate to let it continue Indeed, it is not particularly rare, but the fact its a 5 speed really aids the desireability factor, I think...

If I could have spec'd out a brand new Firebird, this is what I would've bought. I've never warmed to the gold GTA wheels, I would've wanted a bright color...power options...a 5 speed...better suspension...t-tops. As I would've added ONE thing to my IROC (performance axle, which may or may not have been available with t-tops in 88...), the ONE thing I would add to this car is rear discs. I totally would've skipped a 3.45 in this car, because for some reason in 88 a TA could not have a 3.45 ratio and A/C...

Jason E

Uhm...uh...I think we're going a little extreme here, my friend. I'm not trying to make it look or be like a 4th gen. It takes a whole lot more than a Ram Air hood to make a 3rd look like a 4th

Nor do I want a 4th gen motor (I have previously said I'm against later motor swaps), or interior either. But by your own admission, you're saying its ok to make it perform more like a 4th gen.

I guess I've always been intrigued by Ram Air on anything, really. I like the concept. I like scoops when they are FUNCTIONAL...and the TPI Firebird intake is soooo bad...I figured, what's the harm?

eseibel67

My son's 88 TA has A/C and 3.45 axle.

patricklav

iTrader: (7)

throw the hood on and any other mod you want. these cars have dont have much dollar value whether they are modded or orginal.

Jason E

I assume the RPOs claim it was built that way? I have an 88 Pontiac brochure, talking about the perf axle. To quote it exactly, "want A/C? Roll down the window."

eseibel67

^Yes.

The brochure quote sounds like typical advertising jibberish.

C67 = Electronic A/C
GM3 = 3.45 axle

backgammon7

sigged

Jason E

To not go too far off topic...then again, it is my thread...

Referencing what TTOP350 said, yes, it is entirely possible in the front passenger seat. If you're short enough, the t-top does not have to be off.

Just be VERY careful when rolling back into the drivers seat to NOT HIT THE TRUNK POPPER WITH YOUR KNEE. ESPECIALLY if you've just replaced both rear hatch struts with new aftermarket ones that send the hatch up like a roman candle, and turn the interior light on in the middle of a dark parking lot. At college. On a Friday night.

I will say no more. I mean, it isn't like that's happened to me...no. Just please...don't do that.

(I miss college....)

cerberus

My first child was concieved in a 1984 z28, pic taken at "our Spot"


By scotiapilot at 2011-12-24

Jason E

^^I find nothing wrong with that

Starbug

I laughed pretty hard when I read that. My imagination played the scene out in my head, and made it difficult to not choke on my lunch.

Starbug

Lol, I can just hear the Dos Equis guy's voice saying that.

SweetRevelation

man that picture is priceless...

Jason E

Oh I still find it damn funny today, roughly 12 years later. The funny thing is my IROC, which is a visual twin to that beloved 89 RS, has the same brand replacement trunk struts on it, and flies up like a bat out of hell when I hit the button

It wouldn't have been so bad if the parking lot had been full of cars...but it wasn't...and we were in the middle of it...and there was a university bus stop not far away from the parking spot, with several people in it. It also happened at the most inopportune time with respect to my ability to get dressed enough to get out and close it

That car was well known by campus PD. My ex had an evil roomate who would never leave the room...so we'd sneak out to random places on campus to get cozy. One time a cop pulled right up and said "there is no reason you'd park here right now, other than for something that should take place in a dorm room. If you have a crappy roomate, lock them out!" He smiled and drove away. Another time, I was doing donuts with about 4" of snow in an empty parking lot...I have no idea how long the cop was watching me, but once I saw him I stopped and froze. He rolled his window down and yelled "Are you done yet or what?" Then, he proceeded to drive off...

Then there was the time campus PD pulled me over for supposedly tailgating him. He said "I don't know what kind of Trans Am this thing is, but you aren't the hot **** you think you are!" My response was "well, sir, this is a Camaro, as clearly indicated by the emblems on the car. Furthermore, if I was tailgating you, then how did you pull me over? Wouldn't I be behind you?"

Stunned, he didn't even take my license, and stormed off Ah, memories...and you guys wonder why I say third gens are in my DNA!!

Starbug

OMG, the story gets better and better! Please do continue! I didn't go to college, so I can only imagine this kind of stuff. You were fortunate to have run into the good cops, except that last one, but you got the better of him so it's all good. Haha.

Richboll

These stories are great but mine shall remain forever untold. But yes, all things are possible

Jason E

Damn, I've got all kinds of stories from that car. My mom bought it new when I was 9...it served her well as a summer DD for 9 years, and drove me to college for 4.

I drag raced a Pontiac Montana...and lost (it was a 2.8...it was supposed to lose...)

With my 4 14" studded snows I ventured out in one of the worst ice storms I've ever seen, and actually lived to tell the tale. At one point, heading up a long hill, I started at the base of the hill doing 20...by the top of the hill the entire car had rotated 90 degrees to the right, the speedo said 75, and I was barely moving...but I didn't get stuck!

Trying to pass a semi in the hills of rural ME, I locked up the brakes doing 70 when a car was coming at me head on, and I realized the car had no ***** to actually pass the object I wanted to pass.

For 4 years, bath towels were my best friends every time it rained. I refused to let the interior get ruined, so every seat got its own towel on the edge of it, and all 4 outter corners of the t-tops leaked. Before I sold it, I discovered 10 minutes with some self-stick foam solved the issue once and for all

Multiple times I sat in a dark parking lot, waiting for PassKey to reset after I tried to start it, so I could start the damn car and go home. It always started...eventually...

One might wonder why a car so filled with family history, and so loved, was eventually sold...

It lost to a Pontiac Montana. End of story.

Richboll

Well, I think that we are probably way off topic but it's great hearing the personal stories. This is one of the reasons why these cars matter to us.. It's not about the value of the car but of the memories it may have been a part of. I've had a lot of cars in my life and some of them will always mean more than others because of the memories associated with them. Maybe we need a new thread started about "Car Memories"