FirebirdUSX

well here in Europe they are a fortune.I dont think you can find trans am (even rusty ones) under 10,000€ .V6 cars are from 6000€....alot more if they are in good condition.Maybe in US these cars don't mean much but in Europe usually rich people have them.

okfoz

Not sure what kind of car you have, presumably a V6 or base V8 like an L03 or LG4... In 1985 there was an article that tested cars and they said that the 1985 IROC-Z was the fastest factory stock car they ever tested. The compared it to the data they had on 1960's Camaros, early 70's Chargers etc. when they did the testing in the day.

The majority of 1st gen Camaros were slow, with the exception of the Yenko and the COPO cars, they were not as exciting as people think they were. People have modified the crap out of those old cars, to put a cam in an old car to make it perform but appear stock otherwise is not an uncommon occurrence.

Want a better laugh, go find data on a 1957 Chevy... I would be surprised if a pure stock top of the line car got anywhere near 15 second quarter mile in 1957.

Go dig up old original articles on cars from the late 60's and early 70's that are not those special "Race Cars" that were never meant for the masses and you will find that indeed the top model for 85, 87-92 performed really well...

Unfortunately the 4th gen was faster and people seem to think that they were like the 1st gens, they were not.

The truth of the matter is the late 2nd gens really were slower than the third gens. with the exception of some special model...

One thing the 3rd gen really has going for it is it is sheet metal.. The doors and fenders of a 4th gen were injected plastic.... There is not much hope in repairing those when they get old and brittle.

bjpotter

John makes a good point here. Classic cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's looked better than they performed. Manual steering, manual brakes, drum brakes, leaf spring suspensions, and gas mileage of 5-10 mpg. These cars were hard to handle in anything other than a straight line. This is why so many are modified with new tech.
3rd Gens were the starting point for most of the new cars. Engines, suspensions, weight distribution all improved.
Don't get me wrong, they were fun cars to own. But they had their flea's too.

sgp0511

Actually my 65 coronet has power steering brakes with drums but if you keep your drums up on maintenance car stops pretty well and handles quite nicely, just glides along very comfortably and with the 318 can get in the 16-20 mpg range. Old tech isn't all that archaic, does the job and if tuned correctly does it well.

okfoz

My 67 Buick Riviera with it's big 430 ci engine and 360hp would get about 20 mpg. It had power steering and 67 was first year for the dual reservoir power brake...

Of course only lap belts, no headrests... Shoulder belts were an option, and then you could tuck them into the headliner if you did not want to wear them.

The car was basic other than that, AM radio, dual bucket front seats, manual windows, locks no cruise, a real stripped down car...



John

Podium

iTrader: (2)

The cars will go up in value over time. Isnt hard to figure out. They are already going up.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I really don't think it's fair to take a 30 year old, beat to sh 1 T, 3rd gen, with a couple hundred thousand miles on it, and from that example declare that these cars were crap when new. They certainly weren't perfect, they rattled, build quality was iffy, I agree with all that. But they were no different than any other big three car of the era. What they did do right though, is perform near the top of anything you could buy back then and look great doing it.

And for the guy that said that 3rd gens are all about buying a cheap beater and having it outperform a 911, I almost have to laugh. I'd bet you've never driven or touched a 911 ever, certainly not on a race track. It would cost almost as much as an actual 911 to convert a $1500 beater into something which could even begin to be in the same ballpark as a 911 - and I just don't mean 0-60 or 1/4 mile.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Correct, they are. That's obvious.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

Not to some people in this thread.



So youre saying it takes 50-60k for third gen pos to run with a 911 on a road course?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Well, let's think about it. You're going to need at least 400 horsepower to compare to even the cheapest 911. You'll need a transmission, diff, cooling, etc., to support it. You'll need something like 13-15" Brembo, (or equivalent) brakes and wheels that would clear them. You'll need all sorts of chassis work. You'll need all sorts of stiffening to make that chassis do what it's supposed to do. The list goes on and on and on. In the end, you'll have near race car. The Porsche 911 is a very impressive piece. It goes VERY fast, with a lot of confidence and with very little drama. It's a breathtaking car to drive fast. That's why people pay through the nose for them.

I don't own and love my three 3rd gens because I have some sort of wet dream that they can take down a modern 911. I appreciate them for what they are.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

I love 911s. I love driving them. Great cars no doubt.

I agree with everything you said besides how much money it would take to take down a 911 at the track. Im talking base Carrera. Money also depends on how much you can do yourself and if you know how to look for deals.

sorrys70

Im sorry i dont care what that magazine said. stock third gens are slow. 350 tpi or not. If you are satisfied with the performance of one stock more power to you .

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I think it would be interesting if someone like Top Gear would take a new 911, a Carrera for example, and be given a budget of X dollars to take a 3rd gen and have it race the 911 around a track for say, 10 laps - and then drive to some place scenic a thousand miles away. I'd watch that!

sorrys70

I was referring to the quarter mile not 100 laps at monza

Podium

iTrader: (2)

Id rather watch Roadkill do it. Definitely would be your current, "standard" third gen build

Podium

iTrader: (2)

911 isnt and never has been a quarter mile car though so why compare it?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Oh, Roadkill would be awesome!

I just don't think they'd be able to get Porsche to hand over the key fob to a new 911 though.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

For the most part I agree. A 14 sec car is not very fast but that is what most STOCK cars ran from the 60s until the LT1 came out in the early 90s. But.. that 1989 TTA was a solid 13 sec and with a few hundred dollars in mods a solid 12sec performer. So it doesn't seem fair to say the 3rd gens were slow especially for their time-period.

sorrys70

It was for the sake of Conversation. I'm not trying to start a technical debate. When I'm at a stoplight and a 911 pulls up next to me and I Blow by him for the next quarter to half mile it feels good. Simple as that I'm not trying to dig any deeper . I don't have an agenda to prove. Simply saying it's a cheap *** car you can make go quickly

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, 1st gen Corvettes are slow too. So are Ferraris from the '50's and early '60's. Hell, 90% of the muscles car of the 50's, 60's and 70's could barely break into the 14's.

I have no idea why people spend so much money on those cars.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Fair enough. But you can take any cheap *** car and make it quick.

okfoz

I am not sure where you get the 50-60K from he never mentioned that. I would bet that once I had a third gen, and for an additional $10,000 I believe you could run circles around most cars out there. The "third gen pos" as you put it can reach .92G IIRC with the stock wheels and tires back in the late 80's and early 90's, which is still impressive. I think the Firehawks were even better something like .94G or .95G...

A little better tires, and some suspension upgrades I would not be surprised to see 1G

bjpotter

Your correct the tech wasn't bad. Power steering/ brakes go back into the 50's if not before. I like old cars myself. But most people today have never driven a car without most of those options. Many of these cars came without them because of price. Driving a 57 Chevy, a 67 Camaro, a 77 Camaro or a 87 Camaro are all unique Driving experiences. Power to weight ratios, suspensions, braking, safety, all improved with each generation. Outside of hp 3rd gens are better in most ways. If I had to slam on my brakes constantly on a road coarse I would much rather have 4 wheel disc brakes then drums. 3rd gens corner better. less roll, and better tires. As for mileage, I'm talking about big block muscle cars. I did have a friend with a 455 TA HO who claimed he got 17 MPG on the hwy at an average speed of 125. He lived in west Texas at the time.

sorrys70

You know what you're right I was wrong The third gen is an immaculate piece of craftsmanship and lightning fast and I give in. you win. give me a call when a special edition third gen sells for a half-million dollars on Barrett Jackson. Because it's the same as those cars you just stated

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Half a million? Some of those "slow" Ferraris go for several million.

Anyway, we're all friends here, just having fun shootin' the poop.

:internet hugs:

sorrys70

It's all good. I love my third Gen. : ) even if it's not perfect

Linson

and what they are is exactly what sorrys70 implied - a cheap-to-buy, imperfect car from an imperfect era with uniquely good body lines that can be easily modified, [uninhibited by "original condition value"] to be competitive against, and even outperform newer, or more prestigious, and expensive makes and models. that is the essential advantage of the Third Gen F-Body. that's the joie de vivre that many (probably most) who modify their Third Gen are seeking - to outrun (or at least surprise the shyte out of) somebody who underestimated your car because its but a lowly Third Gen - on the street, or at a stoplight, or an open road, whatever - not necessarily on a closed track. that, and our own affinity for the Third Gen Camaro/Firebird body style.


if you like keeping your Third Gen(s) stock, then that's fine. lots of people do. but I think you would at least agree that stock performance is not the essential advantage of the Third Gen.


i don't think taking down a 911 Porche in a Third Gen is a wet dream. I know taking down a modern Camaro or Mustang in one is not a wet dream. expecting any kind of life-changing money for an IROC or a Trans Am in the foreseeable future? I don't own and love my Third Gens because I have some sort of wet dream about them paying for my retirement in 20 years...

bjpotter

I love mine too.
The more valuable a car, the less it is driven. At a certain point they become too valuable to drive on the street. All those million dollar cars will never again drive on the open roadway. Maybe a charity or Highly protected rally or car show, but never again in public.
The greatest value for me is being able to drive mine daily (Except Winter, Rats!!!). I'm also not paranoid to park in a public lot. I appreciate those who can preserve those historic cars, but glad mine is affordable to purchase, run and improve without worry of sale value. I don't plan on selling mine, and I don't care what they sell it for after I'm dead.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

Read what I quoted and you undestand why I said 50-60k. Which is low considering the base 911 goes 85k or so.

A pos third gen cannot reach .92g. Im talking about an actual POS, not the car in general.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Exactly! Talk to a financial planner for that, don't depend your hobby cars.

bbc632

Only 2 cars worthy 3rd gen camaros and 55 Belair bubble top with a bbc632 With disk brakes. Enough said.

RTGTA

What an awesome way to look at it. With my IROC I drive it and park in public no sweat but as far as mods I couldn't live with myself if I were to swap the TPI for an LS and change the trans. The car's only at 70 000 mi and is so mint I can't even think of modding it, even to get rid of the damn 2.77's. But just because it's original doesn't mean I can't drive and enjoy it. It's a neat feeling to sit in a time capsule.
But I'd be lying if I said I've never thought of selling this one to buy a different one I can toy with and not feel bad about.

bjpotter

Its great to be able to afford a rebuilder, without having to spend large amounts of money.

John, great gas mileage with the Riviera. My friends with big blocks always had lead foots. Gas mileage was always an afterthought.
Didn't know you have a 67 Riviera. I have always liked the 67 - 69 Riviera's. I drove a 69 a lot in the late 70's. Great car.

WTR388

At the moment it seems to depend on where you live. All of us in the "rust belt" are seeing values go up for the clean cars... I found what appeared to be a really clean, stock 88ish T/A for $2500 and thought it was a really awesome price, so much so that I considered buying it, swapping the drive train from it in to my car and putting my LS stuff in that body and then selling my car.
Hopefully with my job I will at some point end up in the southern US for a few weeks, where I'll hunt down a rust free but worn out 3rd gen and ship it home for a new project. Or I may luck out and find someone selling their dead grandma's garage queen and think it's just a crappy 3rd gen worth nothing.

I bought my car because I'm an 80's kid, I remember seeing them and always wanted one, we spent our summers down in a beach/cottage area and that is exactly what my car reminds me of is my care free child hood. The first standard car I drove was an 88 Camaro 350 on a back road when I was 13.

Part of the reason I love the car is people under estimate it. People made fun of it even before I had bought one when they found out I was searching. But when I show up with it they remember how cool these cars actually are. I get so many compliments with it that I just don't expect because I know to must people these cars are just not cool... Until they see one that is nice and clean.
The car is a great starting platform to make something special, and when you keep it toned down, and if you build it right, you will really catch some people off guard and that is why I'm building up my car, so the next d-bag in a mid 2000's baseline porsche that decides he will bait me in to a race assuming my car is stock will be getting quite the surprise, and I can't wait to go to a track day and pull up on the bumper of an M3 and make him feel like he's in the way of the ****** mobile... Plus the chicks love the T-Tops.

I don't plan on selling my car so I don't care about the value, but there is no doubt some of these rarer low mileage cars will be desired in a few years. There was an anniversary edition I found in the scrap yard last year, body was solid, interior was gone, and 2 weeks later the car had been crushed... I wish I could have saved it. It is fun making my car what I want it to be without worry that I'm affecting the value.

bjpotter

Values do change around the country. There are still good rebuilders in the Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma areas for 1 - 2K. Mecum in KC last year sold a couple of TA's for under 5K and were pretty nice.

okfoz

I am feeling a bit of hostility...

Have you ever, I mean ever seen an all original 1st gen? One that has not been repainted, adjusted, bondo's to perfection? I will be blunt, a few years back I was at the Detroit Autoshow, and some museum brought an "all original", original paint 1964 or 1965 Pontiac GTO. Nothing, I mean nothing lined up on the car. The gaps were huge, the doors and the fenders and the quarters did not line up, there must have been 1/4" differential between the alignment of the doors to the fenders, and the hood, one panel was higher one lower. It was a serious piece of crap... I would have taken a look at the car and thought that it was totaled sometime in it's life.. But they claimed that is how it came originally.

you take that and compare the alignment of the doors, hood, to a third gen, but they are a far better than anything Chevy put out back in the 1960's. There was definitely craftsmanship in the old cars, because everything was hand made. The third gen was mostly designed by computer IIRC. Are they perfect? No, I think GM thought they could get away with things because of the computer design personally, at 30 years & 100,000 miles old they rattle, squeak and you can see the car flex... It is the way they are... But I still enjoy mine.

sgp0511

I think a "perfect" car is no fun. my wifes newer car is always running fine and it gets boring if that makes sense, sometimes i just want an excuse to wrench around lol so third gens are "perfect"

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

As noted, I think timing has a lot to do with it... When you were born, what was around when you grew up.... with that, so do economics... at 43, I have money in the bank... 15 years ago, not so much....

There will be some cars that stand out regardless of time... 69 Camaro, 69 Charger, etc... Offer me a 69 Camaro or an 89 TTA, I'll take the TTA... better yet, I'll take the 69 Charger... But that's the cars I grew up with (Charger / Dukes of Hazzard) TTA just as bad *** as a GNX....

I don't like many old cars (GTO's, Chevelles's, etc...) Because I didn't grow up with them...

As previously noted, as people get older, and more $$$, the cars in that generation start going up in value / prices... as noted with the 2nd gen FBodies...

I own my thirdgen for me... not for value, or resale value... Not that I wouldn't sell it, but it would have to be an amazing offer... I have close to $40k in my car.... my goal is to enjoy it....

bjpotter

Its really not fair comparing a Ferrari value with a third gen. Like Lamborghini, MacLaren, Bugatti and others, they are a racing companies that makes very limited run luxury sport cars. These are investment cars. Few will ever see 100,000 miles. Like cars made (remade) by special coach builders, engine builders etc, they have become a portfolio collection more than a driving collection.
I personally think the current car market is in a bit of a price bubble. So many investors are looking for new ways to invest their money and High Art, Classic Car prices have benefited in my belief. The high profile car auction shows have brought the little guy into the market. It seems so easy to buy a classic car and sell it for a profit. I do applaud Gas Monkee for showing the times they lost money on rebuilds. Just like the stock market the rise wont last forever. How long this current market continues, who knows.

Jason E

I swear this question is probably the most commonly asked in the 15 years I've been on this forum. I don't feel the issue is over-production. I don't feel the issue is the fact that third gens are bad cars. I've loved every single one of mine...and if I could only keep one of my 3 Camaros, the IROC is the one I'd keep.

At the same point, third gens are caught in a weird spot. They aren't the classic muscle that so many people lust after. When stock, they don't have anywhere near the performance of a modern car. I believe these two facts will keep the prices down for some time. Combine that with what Charlie said...the fact that so many like-new ones can be had in the $15k price range (mine is one of these examples...and after owning mint and beater third gens, buying a mint one is a way better experience and investment), and I don't see the third gen prices taking off.

I love my third gen. Dearly. When I get better situated over the next couple years, I'd love to have a Firebird again...namely an 89 Formula 350 t-top car if I can find one. But there are times where when I'm driving my Charger, I say to myself, why buy another "old car"? 0-60 in 5.2 seconds...mid 13 second quarter mile....same skidpad performance as an IROC...370hp...all under factory warranty and equipped with every comfort and convenience item they can cram into a car.

Yes, my 14 R/T cost a lot more than a mint third gen...roughly twice as much, to be exact. But when you consider how comfortable, fast and trouble free it is...there has to be more sentimentality to drive third gen prices up. We all know an L98 third gen is a better overall car than any 1st gen. Sentimentality drives prices on 1st gens.

Until there's enough sentimentality to drive third gen prices up, old cars will be worth more and new cars will give better performance. There is one more thing I will agree with Charlie about....there's a feel of the road in a 3rd Gen that even a 4th Gen cannot touch.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Jason just truly summed up the entire post.

The bottom line is this:

Have Third Gens steadily increased in value over the last 15 years? Yes. Will they continue to slowly gain value due to age, nostalgia, and a collector car status over time? Yes. Will these cars or any other American cars, no matter how good, ever reach the prices of the original musclecar era cars? No. It's just never going to happen again.

GCrites80s

Minor nitpick here, but Lamborghini actually has almost no history in racing. They now have a spec series but it is new.

Boxxx

Around here plenty of third gens for $2K and less for one in need of various degrees of help, $4-5K gets you nice TPI car with good paint and interior. Anything in between is a decent driver. I think the third gen represents a good balance of the classic era and the modern era. You have fuel injection, 4-speed autos and 5-speed manuals, pretty good aerodynamics even for today, good suspension, decent interior, doesn't weigh near two tons, and you can actually work on it. The fourth gen, while a great car, isn't exactly mechanic friendly and the interior is rivaled by your kid's Power Wheels car. Nicer examples, 6-speeds especially, command some fairly stout numbers still. Even heaps bring in what a decent third gen does just because it has the T-56. As I've discovered for myself the second gen while being my preference aesthetically(exterior and definitely interior), it definitely has a ways to go in some areas. Don't get me wrong for the time period they were some of the best cars, especially limiting that to domestics. Being painfully honest, only very few had a good drivetrain from the factory and that's limited to the first 3-4 years and those are very expensive these days. The rest if they haven't been swapped by now, they really need to be. I found myself making a list the other day of what I wanted to do with mine, and just about everything is available stock in a third gen or fourth gen car. The second gen is still a good car, just needs more help to go in the direction that I'm wanting to.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

My first 3rd gen was a new 85 T/A. At 23 in the Air Force I thought I was the sh**ts. No money, big car payment AND insurance, living in "the dorm." What a life. Did I buy it thinking IT would be worth a lot of money in the future? No.
It just happened to be a damn good looking car that was a blast to drive. So good looking and fun, I bought a new 88 GTA. Was I thinking IT would be worth a lot of money in the future? No. It also just happened to be a damn good looking car that was a blast to drive.
I still own it,looks brand new with 193K, and runs like a champ. Will I sell it? Probably not. Why? Because of sentimental value, not monetary value.

THAT'S where our values are at, inside of each and everyone of us!

At 52, people ask me "why do you still have these old Firebirds?"

My response is simple:
"They're nice fun cars and BECAUSE I CAN!"

IMissMy86TA

my dream is having my son have my GTA when I am gone and enjoying taking it to shows and remembering my love for him and our good times with the car at shows and cruising and getting thumbs ups all over the place Thats my dream!

IMissMy86TA

million $$ cars babied? really? $12MM ferrari TR 250

The most expensive Ferrari in the world (#18, which sold in 2011 for $16.39million) goes off track in 2009.At the time, #18 belongs to Jon Shirley, second president of Microsoft and #9 was being driven by David Love (his shoe got caught on the accelerator and he coudn't lift-off to brake.

cmk-2

iTrader: (1)

Speaking of being "slow" I still have the 1990 article on the 1990 iroc test drive with Car and Driver they stated that the 1990 5.7 G92 was the quickest car from 0-30 they had ever tested period. I'll find the issue and post it if anyone would like

bjpotter

[QUOTE=IMissMy86TA;5877138]million $$ cars babied? really? $12MM ferrari TR 250

The most expensive Ferrari in the world (#18, which sold in 2011 for $16.39million) goes off track in 2009.At the time, #18 belongs to Jon Shirley, second president of Microsoft and #9 was being driven by David Love (his shoe got caught on the accelerator and he coudn't lift-off to brake.

I love it! However, they were not on a public roadway. You will never see it at a McDonalds drive threw window. Big boys will play with their toys. The cost of restoring those cars will be 6 or 7 figures. I don't think they will be breaking a sweat over this though. They will still be worth more than the repairs.
I suggest part of the problem they had was they were unfamiliar with the car. When you don't drive them very often, you don't know how they will behave or automatically know where everything is without thinking. Just cause you have driven one car fast doesn't mean you know how to drive all cars fast.
The web is littered with photo's of people driving more car than they can safely handle. Just recently the Hellcat that survived less than 24 hours.

bjpotter

My comment about investment cars is true though. I know of both a Ferrari and a Lambo sitting in garages for just that reason. The Ferrari is 12 years old and has less than 3000k. The Lambo is a little older at 9000k. Both cars are rarely driven. Both are "Rented" for photo shoots and Movies. I was an extra in a film they were in. Talked to both owners and got good looks at both. Very Cool!

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

You know for a car that's not supposed to be very "desirable" I sure get a lot of compliments on mine. I cannot take a trip to town without someone trying to buy it or telling me some story about when they first seen em hit the street. I like many others like em for sentimental reasons and it would take a pretty penny to get mine. I have no plans to get rid of it and certainly don't care what someone else says its worth.