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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Aerodynamics have always been a hallmark of Pontiac. Their design teams all the way to the beginning were some of the best in GM in my opinion.
Going back to the gen 3 design process, a blog dedicated to design study has proposed the idea that photos of the 1975 OPEL GT2 may have been on the designers "idea boards" at least for the front wheel drive studies.
Earlier, I posted some pictures of "Test Mules" from this program.
GM Firebird Test Mules. Bottom car is a Sunfire with Monza bodywork
Last night I found an interesting quote from GM Performance Director John "Heinrocket" Heinricy
"HPP: What was the first Pontiac you tested? Please describe the experience.
JH: In early 1980 I worked with a group that was charged with designing a front-wheel-drive replacement for the Firebird and Camaro. It was called the GM80 program. The Pontiac member of the development team used a modified VW Scirocco as a Firebird development mule. Its engine was pumped up, and it had different suspension in the front and rear. It was powered by a 60-degree V-6. I did some development driving in it at the Desert Proving Grounds and it was a good handling, front-wheel-drive car. One of the things we discovered was that dealing with torque steer with higher horsepower was a major effort. The steering wheel would pull to the right under hard acceleration. After extensive testing, GM made the decision to stay with a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive chassis for the Firebird."
I would also like to clear up a little misconception about the red, 1985 Kammbak. Apparently it served as the second of 2 GTA prototypes. The interesting story is told by Lou Wassel.
"Lou told me of a three-hour "tire-kicking" session at GM Design Staff with the black car shown above and also a red car that was used to test differing appearance schemes for the GTA. Two cars were used, but four schemes could be contemplated by "clown-suiting" the cars. According to Lou, the cars were done up with a different appearance scheme on each side of the car. Different looks could then be laid out in mere minutes by the stylists, and the two different colored cars gave stylists freedoms to examine how the cars' color affected the overall harmony of the various exterior design schemes. Several schemes were looked at closely before it was decided to make the car monochromatic with the cloisonné emblems.
Lou continued"Eventually, the car was retrofitted with all the content that was finally released for 1987. Though all the parts to create a GTA were already in the plant (except the cloisonné emblems), unfortunately for Pontiac we could not get the car on the road until the 1987 model year. Remember, that was back in the CPC days, when the paperwork to make even the simplest of changes took forever....""
The misconception being that the Kammbak was retrofitted as a GTA AFTER development and was NOT involved in the process. It WAS. And why not? In Italian, GTA means Gran Tourismo Alleggerita - lightened GT, to you. Could the plan have been to lighten the Trans Am using either the fiberglass Kammbak or the Notchback exclusively? We know things didn't work out that way and the ONLY thing that ended up being lightened (other than about 1000 notchbacks that were actually produced) were the cross lace wheels, and those were a last ditch effort to avoid the dreaded gas guzzler tax!
X-perimental 2 - seaters, Station Wagons and Pick ups.
Chevrolet and Pontiac designers considered several body concepts for the two (2) body production limit imposed by GM during the 1st Gen. F-Body design.
None besides the Coupe and Convertible ever made it beyond the drawing/design/clay/fiberglass stage.
There are several well published photos of the two-seat concept Camaro and Firebird vehicles - one or more of these where even used in some Autoshows by both Chevrolet and Pontiac.
Pontiac (under DeLorean) really pushed for this version - they wanted a two-seater to give them a 'Corvette' type vehicle.
There are also good photos and drawings of the FastBack/Hatchback clay mock-ups.
Both divisions pushed hard for this model to compete with the Mustang - but the sheet metal was way outside of the compatibility of the Coupe/Convert and would have lead to production issues.
Both divisions had show cars on the circuit with this design though ...
I've seen conceptual drawings and a couple photos of the clay/fiberglass mock-up for the 1st Gen. Camaro based wagon.
This model was way outside the sheetmetal design parameters and the cost to produce was way out of line for GM's management vision for the F-Body project.
Rumor of one prototype (shared some by Chevy/Pont.) being bult in fiberglass @ the 1965 time period have long persisted.
Again, photos of the clay have surfaced, but I've never seen a photo of a rolling prototype.
GM did sanction the divisions to work on a 2nd Gen Wagon prototype project.
Documentation shows Chevrolet built one fiberglass mock-up."
"Back in 1970-71, Chevrolet entertained serious thoughts of bringing out a production Camaro stationwagon. Preliminary development went along jointly between Chevrolet and Pontiac, but the project faltered when the two divisions couldn't agree to use interchangeable doors on the Firebird and the Camaro. Prototypes were built of fiberglass and called Type K. The K stood for Kammback." The Fabulous Firebird by Michael Lamm
The original Chev./Pont. prototypes had smaller fixed side rear windows and a conventional rear hatch door - like the one photo of the 'Camaro' wagon in my post
They were fiberglass and only the Pontiac version had a drivetrain.
They are two completely different design exercizes by two completely different design teams under two completely different managements, although many often get the two mixed up ..."
Text:http://www.camaros.net/forums/
Pix:http://flymall.org/blog/?m=201101
(More Chevy prototypes shown here).
I for one, have yet to locate an actual picture of the Firebird version, so the Camaro will have to suffice...No word on whether Pontiac produced their own pick-up prototype like the one seen below.
Last edited by TRANSSPORT; 04-06-2015 at 03:14 AM.
Reason: clean-up
I got to sit in the Pontiac Banchee... IIRC what an uncomfortable seat, on top of that the steering wheel was so close to your legs it would have made it very hard for me to drive (6' tall 200#) There was no tilt, and imagine your steering wheel all the way in the down position...
Concepts have many purposes; they test design ideas, feasibility, and practicality. They explore creative ways at making the 'point-A' to 'point-B' experience that much more enjoyable.
This Pontiac Pegasus was one of the dreams of General Motors' design chief, Bill Mitchell. His efforts produced a parade of memorable concept cars and custom cars. This concept car is powered with Ferrari V12 drivetrain, hardware and gauges. The engine, a 365 GTB/4 (Daytona) V12, was offered by Enzo Ferrari and sealed the deal for this concept car.
Bill Mitchell was the head of General Motors Design after Harley Early retired. During his career, Mitchell was responsible for the creation of many important and influential vehicles. Upon his retiring from the position, he struck a deal with General Motors to take this car with him. Part of the arrangement stated that the car would be willed back to the company upon his demise.
The candy-apple red Pegasus Concept has gold-tone pinstriping and chrome, Randy Wittine-designed pinstriping, Ferrari V-12 drivetrain, and many modified styling elements. The design was courtesy of stylist Jerry Palmer, who created the initial sketches in the early 1970s. Further development was handled by the Pontiac studio.
A GM Turbo-Hydramatic three-speed was mated to the Ferrari V-12, but it was later replaced with a Ferrari five-speed. Four-piston Corvette rear brakes were added and many other modifications carried throughout the vehicle.
To make room for the engine, the firewall was moved back nine inches, and left no room for the air conditioning system. Under the forward-hinged hood lay the red-headed four-cam engine. The air cleaner was mounted to the hood, which guaranteed nothing would block the view to the engine while the hood was open.
The powerful engine was first coupled to a GM Turbo-Hydramtic only to find out the three-speed was ill-suited to the highly strung engine. A Ferrari five-speed, likely from a 365GTC/4, was eventually installed. It was also suggested Luigi Chinetti's race team had a hand in setting up the 4.4-liter competition motor with high-overlap cams and big-bore Weber carbs.
This 3,834 pound Pegasus accelerates like a Ferrari Daytona with an extra passenger aboard, and a modest throttle opening in third gear will cause the tires to scratch.
Inside, little of the original Firebird trim was kept. There are Ferrari-spec Veglia Borletti gauges, new wood-trimmed center console, and even a Ferrari shifter. Custom leather bucket seats were fitted, resembling those found in similar Italian cars of the time. There is a Ferrari fuel filler mounted to the rear deck and the car rides on Borrani wire wheels.
This was truly a concept - or at least a radical custom. It was a marriage of American and Italian design ideas and mechanical components.
Been waiting for this subject to come up. Found these on a Fiero site where they claim that at least one GM80 prototype was based on the 1990 Fiero GT.
"The reality is this.
The 1990 Fiero was done in and around 1985 to lock in the styling. They were already building mules at the time they killed the car.
While that was going on the 3rd gen F body was being converted to the GM 80 platform and was going to a space frame, plastic body and yes FWD. This is well documented and was the plan. In 1986-87 GM killed the GM 80 program as the engineers did not want it and the fact that Ford changed the FWD Mustang to the Probe name and retained the Fox Platform.
The GM 80 was set to be built in the same plant as the Fiero and help contribute to the Fiero demise as it left the plant well under capacity and gave Chevy just one more reason to present why the Fiero should be killed.
Now John Schinella was the man responsible for the Fiero design from inception to the 1990. John loved the car and is the reason we still have the 1990 GT yet today as he protected it. He stated publically that the Fiero died and he needed a new design for the 4th Gen F body and needed it fast. He stated the styling of the Fiero GT was too good to waste and made the call to reuse it for the 1993 F body. Note that the Fiero and GM-80 were 5-6 years before the Gen 4 came out and was more than enough time to rework the design to a RWD Front Engine platform.
The GM 80 also had roots in the GTO show car that was FWD and AWD that was only show limitedly. There are rumors the GM 80 based GTO show car is still in hiding at the tech center by some but no one has seen it since the late 90's.
The fact is the 90 GT design was recycled for the Gen 4 F body and the head of design saying so is good enough for me. I was there when he stated it and I heard it first hand.
Another thing that gets lost is that the mid engine V6 design and space frame came form GM engineering in the mid 70's as a proposal to Chevy for the new Corvette. It was rejected and shelved. When the Fiero team wanted to lower the cowl they were offered the proposal the GM tech staff had done and the Fiero team took it and used the concept.
This statement was stated Inside the Corvette by Dave McClelland the ex lead of the Corvette team. He said the Fiero's Mid Engine roots came from this proposal.
Many ideas GM uses are often ideas presented before or saved till the time is right. Many things are never thrown away. "
They also posted this Pontiac Motorsports Showcar and the Trans am Experience Motorhome and Caravan that attended SCCA events.
Here's one of the Firehawk 4th gen prototypes. Seller said it is one of 6.
in 1998 SLP indeed made a few prototype cars (Thought there was something like 4), they were going to get fixed headlights, but they could not get them to meet regulations. IIRC All of the prototypes came with the SLP Firehawk equipment, BUT they were not recognized as officla Firehawks...
GM's division in Great Briton had a couple of interesting concepts under the Vauxhall line.
They were produced the late 60's early 70's. The first one is the XVR.
I was watching Mecum's Indy auction and they said that some of the concepts shown here are on display there in Indy. I didn't catch where they were (Track or Local car museum) but they did show some of them on the show.
While looking at Las Vegas CL firebird listings I came across a Kamm Back Firebird prototype up for sale. It has 70k miles, 403 with 350 auto tranny. Owner said it is one of two known to exist. Owner wants 20k for it.
While looking at Las Vegas CL firebird listings I came across a Kamm Back Firebird prototype up for sale. It has 70k miles, 403 with 350 auto tranny. Owner said it is one of two known to exist.
Highly unlikely that this car is genuine. Probably an aftermarket conversion. The original concepts WERE based on the base Firebird, but they were reportedly completely fiberglass. The 2 Metal bodied concepts were a Firebird and a Trans Am (no Formulas) and neither was red.
"The Type K Back in 1970-71, Chevrolet entertained serious thoughts of bringing out a production Camaro station wagon. Preliminary development went along jointly between Chevrolet and Pontiac, but the project faltered when the two divisions couldn`t agree to use interchangeable doors on the Firebird and Camaro. The original Firebird Type K was done in 1977 under the direction of GM executive designer David R. Holls. Studio stylist Jerry Brockstein did much of the detail work. The first type K (for Kammback) was conceived on the base Firebird, not the Trans Am. Early prototypes were built of fiberglass. Since production in this country seemed out of the question, GM Design vice president William L. Mitchell met with Italian coachbuilder Sergio Pininfarina and arranged to have two metal-bodied Type K`s constructed for show purposes. In late 1977, Pininfarina delivered the twin wagons -- a silver one with a red interior and a gold one with a natural beige interior. These were 1978 cars, later converted to look like 1979-80 models. At one point, Pontiac and Pininfarina checked into the possibility of building Type K`s in Italy or in a special U.S. plant. These limited-production customs were intended for the American market at a list price of $16,000. Convertibles were also contemplated at that time. However, inflation and other costs soon raised vehicle price to $25,000, so the plan ended up on the shelf. The Deco International Corp. of North Hollywood, Calif., began building Type K replicas in May 1980. Conversions cost about $15,000 and consist of fiberglass over a steel framework. Side windows raise electrically on gas cylinders....There were evidently two running versions constructed - one Firebird, and one Trans Am. It had two `gullwing` doors that gave access to the rear cargo area. The Firebird was crushed by GM, but the Trans Am survived to be upgraded to 1979 specs and taken on the show circuit again." http://www.firemanjax.com/wqik.net/kammback/
Unless the Firebird escaped the crusher and was repainted and retro fitted as a Formula, this is probably NOT the second prototype.
Still a nice car though.
Last edited by TRANSSPORT; 05-21-2015 at 02:18 AM.
Reason: Added link to source, corrected info on 2nd car
While looking at Las Vegas CL firebird listings I came across a Kamm Back Firebird prototype up for sale. It has 70k miles, 403 with 350 auto tranny. Owner said it is one of two known to exist. Owner wants 20k for it.
I highly doubt this is one of the prototypes... Look at where the Kammback starts and the original Roof Ends. Notice on the car above there is a slight change in angle. Or it is too straight...
Now look at this car:
notice how the roof flows into the rear of the car and actually curves downward slightly.
Also notice the little notch on the Red car above the tail lights... the Silver car is straight...
and this car
are indeed the same car as the web site indicated. Although they do appear the same, but with a different front nose, there are another couple of cosmetic cues that makes me question it... can anyone else identify it?
The rear bumper is different as well. The bottom one looks similar to the one for sale, but the top one looks unique on both ends.
That is one, now there is one other difference that stands out that tells me that these probably are not the same car.
Actually so not to keep you in suspense... look at the rear windows of each of them...
The top one you will see a slight swoop downward, the second one is almost dead straight.
The top one the "B" and "C" Pillars also appear narrower than the bottom one. At first I thought it was because one had extra pin-stripes, but they both have the same stripes...
The top one the rear window appears to be about 1/2" higher in comparison to the top of the rear point of the door in comparison to the bottom one...
The top one, you can see the remnants of the fender line, the bottom pic seems to be blended right into the side of the car to lose that distinctive curve.
They are different cars...
IMHO the top one is more attractive, the bottom one looks like a knockoff...
The photos are taken at different angles, in different settings. Photo 1 is in a studio with calculated lighting - I'm sure they wanted to highlight body contours. Also - "eye level" is above the door (you can see the drivers side door panel). Photo 2 is outside, and eye level seems to me around the lower half of the door. My point: photo 2 may have the exact same roof line and rear quarter as photo 1; lighting and angles make this difficult to determine.
Originally Posted by okfoz
That is one, now there is one other difference that stands out that tells me that these probably are not the same car.
Actually so not to keep you in suspense... look at the rear windows of each of them...
The top one you will see a slight swoop downward, the second one is almost dead straight.
The top one the "B" and "C" Pillars also appear narrower than the bottom one. At first I thought it was because one had extra pin-stripes, but they both have the same stripes...
The top one the rear window appears to be about 1/2" higher in comparison to the top of the rear point of the door in comparison to the bottom one...
The top one, you can see the remnants of the fender line, the bottom pic seems to be blended right into the side of the car to lose that distinctive curve.
They are different cars...
IMHO the top one is more attractive, the bottom one looks like a knockoff...
I did consider the fact it was two slightly different angles... If you go to the website provided by TRANSPORT http://www.firemanjax.com/wqik.net/kammback/ you will see that there appears to be 2 different cars...
Also notice in the pictures of the second car there is a distinct paint bump around what appears to be the handle, but the first car, it is not noticeable in any of the pictures.
I also noticed that the car when it was the 1978 had a Gray interior, but the 1979 car has a red interior
The rear bumper itself should be a giveaway. The rear bumper for the 1978 & 1979 were identical, or close to it, how it mounted from the factory did not change... The original Kammback in 1978 had an isolated bumper, the one with the different bumper, it seems to me that they would have done that the first time, or left it alone, and just changing the front facia..
Would be interesting to try and get in contact with some of the people who worked on the 82 trans am, that is if they aren't taking dirt naps by now. I would particularly like to see under hood shots of the 4.9 turbo in one. Our cars have the Pontiac mounting holes from factory even.
In my original reply i stated that BOTH concepts were, in fact, Trans Ams. I edited my post when I reread the quote I was posting which stated that one was a base Firebird. Turns out they were BOTH base Firebirds made to LOOK like Trans Ams.
"Both concept cars were built off base production Firebirds, not Trans Ams, though they wore T/A-type dummy front-tender vents. One Type K was finished in silver with a red interior, the other in gold with natural-beige interior." http://auto.howstuffworks.com/chevro...cept-cars1.htm
In my opinion as a graphic artist who has converted many color pictures to Greyscale, the black and white 78 wagon is the GOLD one with the beige interior. It is not the silver car with red interior seen in some of the color pictures. It must be a very pale gold, because it appears to be almost silver in some of the other color pictures. But I believe we can tell each of the two prototypes by the interior which was in all probability not changed.
Postscript: The website I quoted has the 78 in color.Although the car appears Silver due to lighting, Gold highlights are seen on the rear quarter panels. I saved the pic and adjusted the curves in PhotoShop. see for yourself.
Last edited by TRANSSPORT; 05-22-2015 at 02:43 AM.
While looking at Las Vegas CL firebird listings I came across a Kamm Back Firebird prototype up for sale. It has 70k miles, 403 with 350 auto tranny. Owner said it is one of two known to exist. Owner wants 20k for it.
Its been a very long time but I believe this car was in the book "Trans Am" by richard carylon. Back in 1990.
I stumbled upon an informative website that is of interest to this thread. Pontiac Engineering Test Cars - By Mike Noun
When John Delorean wanted to build a z28 killer, the young engineers considered outside input on styling.
Shown below is the first, non-surviving Trans Am prototype:
Coincidentally it is also the prototype for the 1970 - 1981 Formula. What became the gen2 Formula was originally going to be the gen2 Trans Am, that is why the 69 hood scoops were adapted to this model. In 1970, the SCCA allowed "destroking", so, as the Pontiac 303 was a "destroked" 400, it made sense to base the gen2 Trans Am on the old Firebird 400 line.Seen below is another little known Formula prototype:
What became the gen2 Trans Am was actually a "new" model aimed at the SS 396 and slated to be named the "Sebring" for the famed racetrack in Florida that hosted the first 12 Hours of Sebring on March 15, 1952,( the event would grow to become a major international race). In 1959, the racetrack hosted the first Formula One Grand Prix in the United States. Unfortunately, Chrysler already had dibs on the name. So Pontiac renamed the "Sebring" the Trans Am and changed the Twin hood scooped Trans Am to the Formula 400 (perhaps inspired by the Formula racing at Sebring, perhaps by the Formula engined Brabham 400, and the rest is history as we know it!
Final items up for exhibition are:
1: Pre-production 69 Trans Am showing prototype Formula steering wheel:
2: A possible test mule for the 455 HO Formula and Trans Am.
Lots more on the site, check it out, it's a great read.
I went today to the KC Car as Art Show at the KC Art Institute. Cars of all ages were there from 1903 - Today. They were featuring Concept Cars. The one I went to see was the Aerovette, but several other cars of interest were there as well. I took some photos while there though the lighting was not perfect.
04-05-2015, 12:16 PM
