Firebat

iTrader: (7)

sweet. thats exactly what i was planning on doing...

Leader_One

well let me know how it goes, im in the same swap but not to the point you guys are at.

mrfbody

man, now i remember why i used to pay people to work on this car. everything you do is a PITA.

to get the tailshaft off you have to remove this bodyflex/driveshaft guard. the 2 bolts that hold it on, to remove one of them it seems the rear suspension has to be lowered to remove the retaining bolt.

whoever came up with that should be shot.

Klortho

That's the torque arm, it takes the place of the upper control arms on the rear end and is supposed to make the car handle better with that plus the panhard rod than a 4-link type setup. If you look, the muffler hanger is also on one of the bolts as well

mrfbody

well my car has a completely new exhaust, no hanger. i don't think the torque arm itself is a bad idea. i think they should have recessed the bolt hole to make the bolt shorter and you'd be able to remove the damn thing w/out taking 1/3 of the suspension apart.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

DON'T remove the torque arm from the rear diff, you don't have to.
just un do the mount at the trans and let the torque arm go up and touch the floorboard (keep your fingers out of the way, the rear diff is trying to spin up in the front from the springs)
it's easier to get the mount off if you unbolt the trans crossmember from the floorboard, if your engine mounts are ok, and you don't have the "large" HEI distributor, it should all just hang down about 3 or 4 inches, and I have even pulled down on the trans tail to get it farther down to remove the long bolts through the tail housing. just be careful of the distributor against the firewall dimension and the fan inside the fan shroud (if you don't have electric fans)

then the tail will come off with the 4 15mm head bolts.

the 4L60(700r4) output shafts are identical as the 4L60e ones, except for a machined governer gear on the 700's not found on the "E" models, so the speedo gears/reluctors will interchange.

mrfbody

well i have to lower the rear end anyway to install a new set of eibachs.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

mrfbody-

you can still leave your torque arm on if you install springs...the rear will drop enough...if thats what you mean by eibachs.

You better try the vss/reluctor swap before i get under my car in two weeks and beat ya to it...

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

you got one week left...

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

if i had this to do over i wouldnt do it. i plan on putting the t56 in this winter thats the only reason i am using the 700 for now. and i would not recomend the tci lock up kit it works but not the way it should. i recomend the b&m one. well if anyone is around ga and has a t56 let me know

Perry93TransAm

I'm looking through my tunercat tables and where does the sparkadvance and fueling depend on the speed of the car? I see only MAP and RPM.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

yeah i dont get it either but many lt1 swappers say the engine doesn't run right without the vss hooked up. I'm just going to take their word for it...

Perry93TransAm

I swapped a 94 LT1 into a 91 S-10 and ran a 93 700 R4 behind it with a manual lock-up for a while (the 4L60E plug just hung there). The motor hummed like a sewing machine. We later bought a 4L60E and put it behing it.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

i'm going to try it without the vss and see what happens though. But i'm also going to try swapping a 4l60e vss, reluctor, and possibly rear housing onto a 700r4.

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

let me know how this goes

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

took the rear housing off the 4L60E. Thats all it took for me to figure out this isn't going to work. The gear for the vss is actually part of the shaft that connects to the driveshaft. And it looked like the only way to swap it now would be to take the tranny apart. Don't feel like taking both trannys apart and it probably won't work anyway.

Cant swap rear housings,reluctor, vss of 4L60E to 700R4, at least by taking off the rear housings anyway.

mrfbody

i finally got underneath the car today to wrap this up...............
man i am so pissed at that ****ing company that told me this **** would work.

the id of the reluctor is too big. only way i can concieve of this working would be a crush sleeve or bushing or something or maybe have a new gear made. i don't know.

it isn't by much either like a little bigger than a hair.

those bastards probably looked at it and said "close enough".

mrfbody

here is another

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

sorry, I've been out of town for a week, I will measure some stuff at the shop and post what I find, it should fit.

firebat, I don't know what you're seeing, but the speedo gears/reluctors are NOT part of the output shaft.
700r4's have a gear made into them for the governer, but you shouldn't have one of those on a 4l60e.

mrfbody

talked to the peeps today at the company, he said i have to heat the reluctor up really hot and let it cool be4 it will stay.

****er didn't mention that **** earlier. anyway i do not have a torch, what do i have to do to remove that output shaft? i already have the tail housiong off.

mine does not have a governor gear in it. don't know if it counts but i have a gta t/a and i have had it over 135 be4.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

take off the rear housing of a 4L60E and tell me how to take off the gear that is part of the shaft. I think its all one part. I would post pics but i dont feel like taking off the rear housing again.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

I use an air hammer, or take a chisel and split the old reluctor and slide it off. or you could try to slide hammer it off.
if it has the same teeth count as the new one, don't even take it off....

it IS a press fit, so it will be tight, they don't want it to fall off while you're driving.

you have to take the trans apart to get the snap ring off to remove the output shaft from the rear, I've probably done a couple hundred of them..... but I wouldn't do that just to change a speedo gear.

If it is a nylon gear, there is a metal spring that holds it on. take a medium to large regular screwdriver and place it between the trans housing and the gear(with the tail off) right against the gear between the metal retainer and the plastic gear. tap, don't pound, the speedo gear towards the end of the output shaft, and keep going till it's to the splines, then it falls off. If you hit it too hard, or get it cocked, it will split the gear and then throw it away, it won't stay on anymore.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

measured both a 700 and a 4L60e-- both output shafts are identical dimension in the speedo gear/reluctor area.
took pictures of different reluctors and a nylon gear, but gotta get em out of the camera then I will post them.
sorry for the delays, the shop has been PACKED for a couple of weeks, hardly time to breathe....

JDud

OK guys, I am very interested in all this...I took an LT1 and 4L60E and the PCM from a 94 9C1 cruiser and am trying to set up everything to go into an 86 IROC. The motor is now an LT4 with heads/intake/cam and 33 extra cubes (383). I had the original 700R4 built because I want to put a 6 speed in there in the future and figured I would have less to change later if I put the purely mechanical tranny (700R4) vice the electrically controlled (4L60E) one in the car for now. As of today, the engine is still on a stand in my garage waiting for a couple more parts (sensors, fuel injectors and stuff) and the trannies are on the floor.
Here is my question:
Does it make more sense to put in the 700r4 while waiting to put in a T56 or build the 4L60E to put in while waiting for a T56?


Does the T56 have the same vss output as the 4L60E? Would that be an easier conversion than a 700R4 to T56?

Klortho

Go with a 4L60E or you will run into the headaches that Ssean and Firebat have with the speedo and the engine running right as well.

The VSS is the same, but you will have to get the tranny codes flashed out of the PCM when going with the T56 and also add the auto wiring for the reverse lockout, C.A.G.S and reverse lights when doing the swap.

Or find a 6-speed harness to swap the engine harness with.

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

i wlii have to agree , eaither wait for the t56 or do the 4l60e. do not waste your time on the 700. i wish i would have just waited.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

Update. I might have the speedo figured out if my calculations are right but dont know til i try it. I'm also trying to figure out how to wire the LT1 pcm's tcc to the 700, or even see if its possible. If my 700 wasn't built up, i wouldn't even be bothering with this. Getting the LT1 to run is first priority right now so might be some time til i get to testing this.

duncz

i'v been reading this thread and realizing i should be crawling under my ride to answer some of these questions. iv been running my 700r with my lt1 for about a year now. My buddy is the tranny guru, he did the swap. By the way, i cant say enough good things about tunercat it really helped my setup.

JDud

So could I take the output shaft out of the 4L60E on my garage floor and put it in the 700R4, with the VSS still on the shaft and call it a done deal? Would that work? Or is there some other limitting factor I am not catching onto?

Firebat/Sean, what do you guys think of this?

Greggbruce, please feel free to let us know how hard this would be....

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

I've taken off the rear tail housing of both of the trannys and looked at both of the shafts. It looked near impossible to take off the speedo thing without taking out the whole shaft for the 4l60e. I'm no tranny mechanic/expert, so i didn't want to mess with taking the whole tranny apart to get the shaft off.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

yes, the shaft will fit, but there would be no governor gear on the output shaft to run the governor. which means it won't upshift. not to mention, taking apart almost the whole trans(which if you haven't done before, isn't like just changing spark plugs...)
all you need is a new reluctor from gm (about 5 bucks), and a long piece of pipe and hammer it on to the 700 shaft to the same distance the nylon gear used to be....
I have had a couple of them split while installing, so now I take my die grinder with a sand paper wheel and polish the inside of the reluctor some to enlarge it slightly and it goes right on.
the other way is set it in a toaster oven for a few minutes to heat it up and then slide it on.

JDud

Ahhhh. it didn't sink in before, when you mentioned the governor. I was thinking speed limitter, not shifting...brain fart on that one, thanks for clearing it up for me.

I guess I will have to get one and heat it up, grinding it would make me nervous.

Thanks for sharing all this info guys,
Jim

JDud

OK gents, I just googled 4L60E vss and this is something that I found....

http://www.shiftworks.com/tailhousing.htm

Haven't ordered one yet, but called and sounds good. They modify a 700r4 tailshaft to keep the mechanical speedo output and add a vss reluctor/pickup to go to the pcm. Sounds great for keeping my factory gauge cluster (86 IROC mech speedo) and providing electrical vss signal to the pcm (LT1 pcm from car with 4L60E). If this works out, the original output shaft stays in the 700R4 so the governor is still there for shifting, the mechanical speedo still works, and the pcm gets it's signal too!

Have any of you heard of this company? Know anything about this?

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

i dont see 700r4 on there anywhere, but the 4l60e tailshafts kits are going for about $400.

JDud

When I called, the gent from Shiftworks said that the earlier style 4L60E tailhousing they use is a modified 700R4 housing....

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

just making sure this is correct, but all this vss stuff is dealing with 94 and up lt1's that had the 4l60e trans, right? what about the 93 lt1 that had the 4l60 trans? is it able to hook up to a 700r4 with electrical speedo without problems?

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

The thread is about 94-95 LT1s which originally had the T56 or 4L60E and trying to get the 700r4 to work.

A 93 and a 4l60 shouldn't have any problems. I've heard of guys with 93 f-bodies swapping in 700r4's. Not for sure if the 4l60 has speedo gears like the 700r4. So, in other words, I would think you would have no problems with the speedo but i really dont know.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

ok, thanks for the reply

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

a 4L60 IS a 700R4.
gm just changed what they called it, not what it actually is.

a 4L60E is actually just an electronic 700r4... the only things that don't interchange are the case, valve body and pump

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

so are you saying that the speedo gears are the same????

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

all 4l60 and 700 parts will interchange-- some speedo's are electronic, some are mechanical, some are both.

please notice I said "interchange" not "the same"

4l60e: the tail housings are the same up to like 96 or 97, then they went to the small diameter speed sensor, then in like 99, when they went to the removable bellhousing, the tail housings changed to 6 bolt.

there is a difference between the 4l60 e output shafts in that they don't have a governer gear made into them.

so to answer your question, to an extent.

if you have the correct parts, you can make the speedo work. it depends on what car you are trying to make the parts work in.

sorry there isn't a more definate answer.

Klortho

However if you want to make it simple, buy a 4L60E, by the time and aggrivation to swap out the reluctor ring you could have put 2 4L60E trannys in the car.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

the setup i have is a '93 LT1 and a '91 700R4 to put into a '88 Firebird with electronic speedo. does this help??

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

no no, the reluctor and vss are easy to put in. Its that stupid 700r4 Throttle Valve cable. I could probably have 2 4l60e's put in before I get the TV cable hooked up. I hope I never have to disconnect that TV cable again.

Should have no problem as long as the speedo gears are correct. Will have to do minor wiring to get the 700r4 connector to adapt to the 4l60 connector. Could ask on the transmission forum. I'm sure someone has swapped a 93 4l60 from a 700r4, just do the opposite of that...

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

fyi:
a 4l60e is an electronic computer controlled and shifted trans. you HAVE to have a computer to shift it. if he's using an 88 car and wiring harness, the computer has no idea what to do with it, not to mention trying to make the harness mate up....

and if you can't change the reluctor ring in 30 minutes, you need some help.

the tv cables are easier if you unhook them from the carb or throttle plate first...

and the connectors for a 4l60 and a 700 are the same, the wires may be in a different spot from model to model, but it's the same pass through connector, and as I said in a previous post, a 700 and a 4l60 are the same thing.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

are you running the LT1 computer and harness??
or is this a carb application?
if you're running the lt1 injection, computer and harness, you should get the 4l60e to go with it-- that way the computer will find a transmission and won't freak out and run like poop. and it would be a much easier combination.

I haven't checked exactly, but the wires for the vss should be a simple chop, chop, connect thing if the connectors are even different(they may be the same)(I work on too many different ones to remember how each one is). all gm cars use the 1000 pulse per mile kind of speedo, and I think all the electronic signal generators make the same signal.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

yes, i have the '93 wiring harness and computer. i read somewhere that the '93 LT1 came with a 4L60 and the 4L60-E came on '94 and up??? is this correct?

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

yes. correct.
----------
It was probably more of having limited space to work underneath the car and tranny fluid leaking out all over from where the TV cable is connected at the tranny.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

ah, yes, I found if you raise either the front up real high, or just the passenger side, it makes less of a mess....
----------
I dunno-- GM started rolling out the 4l60e in 92 (some vehicles had them, some didn't), and I was under the impression that all 93's had them, but I could be wrong.
check the trans connector, if it's square and has 4 holes for wires, (it may not have 4 wires in it though) then it's a 700 or 4l60.
if it has an oval shaped connector, and 10 or 14 wires (or so), then it's for a 4l60e.