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what are you planing with the front plate? Dash install or you want a original front plate bracket?
yep! Same car. Had not thought about the front plate yet. Luckily the cops usually give classic cars a pass on the front plate where I live (close to DC but still technically the South). It’s funny, I forgot to reinstall my front plate on my 370z a couple years ago and barely made it 5 miles before getting pulled over.
yep! Same car. Had not thought about the front plate yet. Luckily the cops usually give classic cars a pass on the front plate where I live (close to DC but still technically the South). It’s funny, I forgot to reinstall my front plate on my 370z a couple years ago and barely made it 5 miles before getting pulled over.
my bumper cover has the bracket on it and its coming off even though its law here I don't like the look so if you want it let me know
OK. I signed up for another track cross event in mid November. It’s also kind of a grudge match for my racer buddy with his daily driver Ford fiesta ST ( don’t knock that little car it’s tailor-made for that type of event). At the last event he beat me by half a second. My biggest Achilles’ heel was the brakes.
So now it’s time to get down and dirty to get these brake issues sorted out. One thing that really surprise me is no one makes a master cylinder brace for our cars. There were a couple attempts on this forum to fabricate one. Most attached to the strut tower brace. However, the results were not what was expected Because the Movement of the master cylinder was actually flexing the strut tower bar.
So time to start with a blank sheet of paper. Give me a hacked up Harbor freight C clamp and a quarter inch weld steel bar of angle iron.
Here’s where I am so far... It may be overkill but I have no baseline to work with other than the fact that the movement of the master cylinder is enough to flex an after market strut tower brace when pushing close to its mounting point (where it should be stronger).
When I get to welding this monster on I can't imagine it will flex...
I got around to welding in my master cylinder brace last night. All I can say is wow!
The difference is not subtle. The pedal is markedly firmer. The car finally feels like a modern vehicle. Honestly, I think anyone with a third gen will be absolutely stunned with how much master cylinder flex is compromising our cars.
It kind of baffles me that no one makes an aftermarket brace for our cars. That means if you want one you’re going to have to fabricate it yourself. Which, if you have the skills to weld should not really be that big of a deal.
Before I post the final picture let me address one thing. I am not a welder by trade. In fact I’m actually a lawyer.
All my welding “skills” are self taught. If you don’t know 50% of welding is getting good penetration to make a structural connection between metal. The other 50% can be likened in to art. And I am no artist.
Good luck, look forward to hearing how it goes. FWIW, also consider doing the spring upgrade in the proportioning valve. I recently did it and the improvement in brake pedal feel was noticeable. I used the 1NCR5 spring. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...e-upgrade.html
Last edited by JimInMiami; 10-26-2019 at 12:53 AM.
Reason: Fixing typo
So did you get a chance to test it again with the additional angled piece??
Not yet. I got held up yesterday doing the brake lines. Turns out Hawks sent me the wrong kit. My front lines fit but my one rear line does not. Of course, I’ve already installed the front so it’s not as if I’m going to return them.
I spent most of the evening digging through my brake line parts trying to Frankenstein a line together. I spent the rest watching the nationals get destroyed by the Astros.
Once I get the brake lines installed and some fluid in it I’ll test it.
Not yet. I got held up yesterday doing the brake lines. Turns out Hawks sent me the wrong kit. My front lines fit but my one rear line does not. Of course, I’ve already installed the front so it’s not as if I’m going to return them.
I spent most of the evening digging through my brake line parts trying to Frankenstein a line together. I spent the rest watching the nationals get destroyed by the Astros.
Once I get the brake lines installed and some fluid in it I’ll test it.
Sounds good, I think I’m going to do the same experiment in my car to see if we can catch on video the amount of movement from the master cylinder. sounds good,
I also installed the stainless steel lines in the front (I didn’t do the rear because I was sent the wrong kit). And on a scale of 1 to 10 I would say the improvement is ...
0.
I can tell no discernible difference with them on.
Humm, interesting, so if I read you right, almost all the sponginess was coming from the flexing of the master cylinder, not the old brake lines? For what it’s worth, just eyeballing it, it looks like you’ve got way WAY less flexing now with the additional upgrade. Thanks for sharing, this is darn interesting!
In all fairness, I had replaced the pads and maybe some of the lack of feel was attributable to the pads not being bedded in yet.
I got them really hot yesterday and they had a chance to cure overnight. I’ll adjust my rating from zero to a two.
Strangely enough, but I suspect our stock lines are really not that bad., They’re pretty short to begin with. Less material to flex. And they’re pretty damn thick but my car also lead a pampered life before I got her.
But to answer your question, The master cylinder is responsible for way more flex than the brake lines.
When i got my 87 T/A WS6 car I was impressed with how stiff they were few years later I added SFC and STB and was amazed how much it stiffened it up then I added 1LE brakes and braided lines - little better, then I saw your brace and how much the firewall flexes I guess when you compare to second gens or first they were a vast improvement but not a cure. 2 years ago I bought a 2013 ZL1 that a buddy of mine had an accident in - somebody pulled in front of him and front clip was all messed up and i was impressed how the cabin was unharmed doors opened and close as new - except the drivers fender was rubbing
the front impact bar is about a foot to the drivers side from stock there I kind of saved it in unconventional way
I went on Rock auto and they have a braided stainless steel kit for factory 4 wheel discs. Their kit contains five lines. The Hawk kit provided only the top three. At least I know what that third line does now. I’m kind of scratching my head on this one ...
It looks like rain in the forecast so when I get home from work I’ll put the car back up on jackstands. Then I’ll crawl under and take a look.
In hindsight it only makes sense that there is at least one other flexible hose from the body to the solid rear axle.
Just in case you’re wondering, the pad I used was the power stop Z36. I actually use these on my excursion as they’re sold us towing pads. But they really are decent upgrade over normal pads, a little bit more aggressive, a little bit better heat tolerance, and damn cheap (On rock auto)!
I finally have all the flex lines replaced with stainless steel lines. TTop350 was right, that photo of the five line kit must be a stock photo. There are only four flex lines for a four wheel disc 87.
I did a little research on the missing line to the passenger side rear caliper. Turns out it’s a 10 mm banjo fitting with a 10 mm female fitting. Luckily, this turns out to be the standard size for almost every Japanese master cylinder line.
as a result, finding a replacement was as easy as going to the local tuner shop.
The only issue I had was the retaining clip wouldn’t fit so I had to get a little creative with a hose clamp.
and I mentioned that I couldn’t tell any difference after just replacing the front lines. Now with the center and rear caliper line replaced can I notice an improvement?
Looking good! BTW, I check my master cylinder with wife holding the camera, and can see no discernable flexing/movement even when bearing down on the brake pedal with almost all my strength, will upload vid this evening. Wonder what was going on with yours???
Looking good! BTW, I check my master cylinder with wife holding the camera, and can see no discernable flexing/movement even when bearing down on the brake pedal with almost all my strength, will upload vid this evening. Wonder what was going on with yours???
Every car is going to be a little different. Imagine the brakes In your car as a complete system. Every component affects every other component in the system. The master cylinder is just one of these components. For example, If you have old lines or old brake fluid you might see less movement of the master cylinder. The force/energy that would ordinarily effect the master cylinder might be used up elsewhere with compression of the brake fluid or expansion of the brake lines (although in my case I have found that my stock lines were pretty good). Also, the rigidity of your firewall is going to depend entirely on what your car has experienced this point.
I suspect one of the main reasons I'm seeing so much movement my master cylinder ( the video was taken before I had stainless lines) is the fact that I am running Motul 660 racing brake fluid. This fluid not only as a very high boiling point it has extremely low compressibility. That would translate into more energy/movement going elsewhere in the system. And this might explain why my master cylinder move so much more than yours.
Although I think master cylinder movement is the rule not the exception in our cars. And this is also the case with the Fourth GEN cars as well.
Good info in that video, and I see what you're saying about the master cylinder being part of an overall system. For what it's worth, here's the vid of my brake master cylinder with the car running and me forcefully applying brakes.
Good info in that video, and I see what you're saying about the master cylinder being part of an overall system. For what it's worth, here's the vid of my brake master cylinder with the car running and me forcefully applying brakes. https://youtu.be/2aLTuZeaBSQ
you’re not kidding! You have no master cylinder movement. How does your brake pedal feel? Before installing my brace my pedal was like stepping into a lemon meringue pie.
This is where the science starts. Maybe we can figure out what is the difference between our setups. What brakes do you have on your car, how many miles on your chassis, do you do any type of autocross or track days, what brake fluid are you running, do you have stainless lines, any bracing in the engine compartment, are you on the original master cylinder, are you running the same proportioning valve, any modification to your pedals and/or brackets, etc...
you’re not kidding! You have no master cylinder movement. How does your brake pedal feel? Before installing my brace my pedal was like stepping into a lemon meringue pie.
This is where the science starts. Maybe we can figure out what is the difference between our setups. What brakes do you have on your car, how many miles on your chassis, do you do any type of autocross or track days, what brake fluid are you running, do you have stainless lines, any bracing in the engine compartment, are you on the original master cylinder, are you running the same proportioning valve, any modification to your pedals and/or brackets, etc...
My car has only 13k documented miles on the chassis (true survivor), but it had been sitting a LOT during the years before it came to me, what with 2005 coded tires sporting full thread depth..... I don't do any track events (yet) only weekly drives when the weather is nice. Lines are original and the engines compartment has no bracing tho I do have sturdy S&W subframe connectors below. The calipers were rebuilt and rotors replaced in 2017 and I can't recall what pads are in there. Even with the brake rebuild, the feeling was REALLY spongy and not confidence inspiring even for street driving. I was was concerned enuf to be considering a big brake upgrade, when I stumbled on this thread https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...e-upgrade.html
On a lark, I recently installed the 1NCR5 spring and the improvement is quite noticeable. I wouldn't say braking performance is up to modern car standards, but it at least falls somewhere near "acceptable" now. I have extra springs, so if you want to try them, send me a self-addressed envelope, and I'll send them you way. PM me for my address.
I take your point made elsewhere that the stock setup should be optimized b4 spending big bucks on fancy setups. What pads would you suggest for the stock calipers???
Last edited by JimInMiami; 11-12-2019 at 09:41 PM.
Reason: cleanup
If you want the best street pad I would suggest the hawk HPS. They are a noticeable step up from any of the brand name brake pads and can handle the most aggressive street driving with no noise and no dust.
although, I could never justify spending that much money on a street pad.
often, people ask me if there is a pad that’s suitable for street and track use. My usual response is if you’re asking the question then you’re not ready for a trackpad. But maybe you’re getting ready to do your first track event.
in that case get the hawk HP+. That is a great pad that’ll have minimal levels of dust and noise and will handle the most aggressive street driving you can throw at it and entry level track duty. But it’s ultimately still a street pad and it’s expensive.
currently I am running the power stop Z36 in my car. Don’t get me wrong, there still a street pad. But they are a little more aggressive and have a higher heat tolerance than a normal pad. And they have very minimal levels of dust. I was a little surprised when I saw these on rock auto for the formula as they are marketed as towing pads.
I originally came across the power stop Z36 when I was looking for a slightly more aggressive rear pad to balance the brake bias in my Ford excursion (from the factory it heavily front biased). I have a strong suspicion they’re the same brake compound as the power stop Z26 sports car “ Street warrior” compound. But they are 1/3 of the price at only 24 bucks for a set.
So I was at the track today. First, the good news. My brake upgrades consisting of my master cylinder brace, my stainless steel lines, and my Power stop Z 36 brake pads we’re night and day difference.
if you remember my last post after I got back from the track I said the Achilles’ heel with this car starts and ends with the brakes. My biggest problem was how dead the brake pedal felt. Well I can say that the problem was fixed! At least from a mechanical and not driver error standpoint..,
they were all types of cars there. Some on race tires but all at least on high performance tires.
I can proudly say I ran faster times (in the RWD >2.5L Street Car Class) than a Porsche GT4, a Cayman S, a M3, and three modern generation mustang GT’s.
During one of the last runs of the day I overcooked it a little bit heading into a corner and locked the brakes up.
unfortunately I ended up making contact with the wall. The damage is really not that bad. And I was able to drive the car home. Definitely going to need a new driver side fender and now I need to figure out if the creases in the hood can be repaired or if I need to replace it.
any help you guys can give me sourcing parts would be greatly appreciated. I will rebuild her!
Damn that's definitely a big bummer. Luckily though Formula fenders are the easiest to find as they're the same on base Firebirds, and you won't have to deal with hidden rust under the GFX of a Trans Am fender!
10-18-2019, 06:52 AM
