Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Fedex dropped it off the other day! It's a relatively new model being sold by Edelbrock as thier "E-Force" line of blowers. Haven't bothered taking it out of the box yet, since I'm still building the engine.

Of course, that came to a halt when I broke #2 compression ring on #7 while installing the pistons... But I ordered a replacement ring which should arrive in a few days. Not much I can do with the engine till then.

Another issue I have is with Comp cams...they've apparently changed their custom grind policy and it's getting me pretty frustrated. Now, if you want a custom cam, they'll send you a spec card for it via email. Then they want you to "fax" them the card back with your signature on the bottom, or else they won't send it!

I explained to them that I do not have a fax machine at home, so when I got the spec card via email, I sent a reply back via email saying I wanted the cam and ship it ASAP.....and nothing happened. I call the same sales guy back and ask what's going on - and he says he'll look into it and call me back (he's got my phone#, address and VISA card# already). I got no call back. I have no cam. I plan to call them to give them their last chance to sell a cam today, and if I'm ignored they lose the sale - simple as that. Crane might benifit from Comps policy - I bet they already are!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Ah, they just want to be sure you don't get the wrong cam. Covering their tails I guess. But if they can't accept your word on the phone, then I think they have to bend their policy. Not everyone has access to a fax, let alone email either. (Faxes suck, welcome back to the '80's fellas!).
n
You'll have to post a picture of it installed. Hopefully installing the blower is the easy part of your build!

sleepybu

What size is the blower

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

No, that's not the case. It's the cam THEY recommended in the first place. Because they've had so many returns on custom cams, they started this new policy that gives honest customers (bought three already, none returned) an added hassle. Poor "policy" IMO...the one I want is an "off the self grind" so to speak, but cut on a small base circle - that's the only thing "custom" about it.

It's a Magnuson MP-122 blower. It's not huge, but supposedly pretty efficient since it's semi-helical w/ a bypass valve.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Yeah Street Lethal, that's the one - 'cept mines not polished, it's "as cast". I didn't want to pay an extra 800 bucks for the polished, since it's not show car quality anyway.....

Guss_B

Can you post some more pics of the blower? I'd be interested to see how it differs from those designed for fuel injected engines. Specifically how the rear bearings are different to handle fuel through the blower.

One thing is for sure, nothing looks better than a roots supercharger on top of a V8!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ Here ya go....

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

It's getting closer to completion!

Long block is finally assembled. I now have SRP forged pistons, the Total Seal rings gapped for boost. Heads were gone over and viton oil seals installed. Block only needed honing for the new rings, so it's still .040 overbore. There's some pretty tight clearances in the bottom end, especially between a couple of the crank counterweights and a few piston skirts. But it should be fine, nothings contacting.

I think I'll bolt the blower intake on next and drop it in the car. I then need to sit the blower in place so I can figure out what size cowl hood I'll need....
I'll post a couple pics of the progress so far real soon.

Oh yeah, I did get the cam. I think Comp dropped thier new confirmation policy - most likely due to complaints....it's a NX276HR - retro roller cut on a small base circle.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Gotta love that "GM Corporate Blue"

JAYDUBB

Edit... After reading up on them, I stand corrected.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I just kinda set the blower and carb on top of the engine, just to see what the measurement difference was between my N/A setup and this blower.

Since carbs seem to tilt forward when sitting on most intakes, I just laid a 3 ft yard stick across the top of my carb and measured from the top of the rear china wall to the yardstick.

I got 10 1/2". With the blower installed, it went to 13 1/4, the difference being 2.75....not too bad! I could theoretically just get a 3" cowl, and I'd have enough room....but I was running a 2" thick air filter on a drop base with the N/A setup, and the stock hood barely shut.

I think I'll need at least a 3" thick element for it to breath properly with a blower, so I believe a 4" cowl hood will do it! I also verified that indeed, you can't use a big cap HEI distributor with this blower since the housing interferes with the bypass valve operation on the blower and the cap would most likely not sit square.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Here's the N/A setup:

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

And with the blower:

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Last one:

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, now that I have a few days off my normal job with a horrible schedule, I can make a little more progress.

The pic below is of the lower "intake". It's really more of a plenum than it is a intake. Notice how the T-stat hangs out in front? I'll need to get a 90 degree elbow for my heater hose connection on top of my water pump.

I also have no idea yet if the upper rad hose will interfere with the blower drive, but it'll be close. Sure enough, a large cap HEI distributor like I had won't work with it. The cap interferes with the bypass valve operation.

EDIT: Also still really trying to determine if I need to modify my power valve reference port on my carb for 7 lbs. of boost or not. Any input or thoughts?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

the carb never sees boost since it's above the blower, so what port are you discussing modding?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I think you answered my question xpndbl3, I guess it doesn't matter how much or little boost....

jwscab

making the power valve boost referenced will make driveability that much nicer. I would suggest doing it.

it allows the power valve to operate properly, ie, open when the engine needs it, during throttle transition, and as an added bonus, it will open under boost to help add fuel.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thx jwscab, I plan on doing it then. I've read a couple of web articles on modifying the PV reference port, and it doesn't SEEM too hard to do. But I want good drivability.

I've also read that you could just richen up the jets and get by, but it'll be rich at idle. Can't have that though, wanna do this right...

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Hi again all!

It's been a few busy months, and I'll admit I haven't gotten very far since then with the blower install. A few things I noticed since getting this blower:
1. Install instructions are shakey at best.
2. The heater hose fittings end up under the snout of the blower which I had to buy brass 45 and 90 degree fittings for. Not to mention the upper rad hose will be sitting under it also - a tight fit for the hoses. Not too big a deal, I'll overcome it.
3. There's no self adjusting belt tensioner! I didn't realize it when I bought it. Hopefully it won't be an issue.

Other than that, I plan to drop it in the car tomorrow. Still have Q's though, but I don't know if anyone here will be able to answer them...but I'll ask anyway:

There are 3 ports for vacuum hoses on the back of the blower...instructions don't say anything about them. Does anyone happen to know what each port is for?
-I have a boost gage, PCV hose, power brake booster, vacuum advance hose for my distibutor and another hose for my vent doors...where do I hook these up? I see no holes or fittings wharsoever for vacuum on the intake itself. Of course I still have fittings on the carb, but with a blower their function changes.
Anyone?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I was afraid no one would know here....guess I'm calling Edelbrock Monday then.

Motor is now in the engine bay and it looks sweet! I'll definatley need a cowl hood! I'll throw up some pics later if NE1 is interested...

-So if I use the large vacuum fitting on the back of my carb to hook up, say - my power brakes...would it work like it did N/A?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Here's a couple pics:

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

I believe that big port on the carb should work as normal for power brakes. Been a while since I researched it but yeah, do the boost referenced PV mod. If I remember right it wasn't hard to do.

Quick search popped this up, http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/modi...s-c-69171.html

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.... nice!

stroker_SS

Are you spraying this thing too? I cant really tell if thats just an anodized spacer below the carb or not.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Just looks like the carb's baseplate to me.

Damon

It's coming along real nice!

Just to answer your previous question, remember the following..... if it's above the blower lobes, it works exactly like in a N/A application. It's only below the blower lobes that things can vary between vacuum and boost.

I don't have the carb on my little Weiand 142 blower boost-referenced and it works just fine. It's a QJet which isn't capable of being boost referenced, but I found that with these little blowers just going up to a slightly higher number power valve (so it opens sooner) works just fine. In the case of my QJet it's a stiffer power piston spring. On a Holley it would be a higher number power valve.

On my combo the engine begins to see boost with about 5" of vacuum still showing below the carb. And that number is pretty consistent across the entire usable RPM range. So I just make sure the power enrichment system in the carb is kicking in at no less than about 7" of vacuum. That way any time the engine is seeing boost, the carb is already into power enrichment.

This method wouldn't work very well with a big-cammed X-71 blown combo, but on something with a mild cam and plenty of idle vacuum it seems to work just fine.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thx for the compliments guys!

-No, not planning to spray it, that's why I got the blower. But you never know, I may try a 75 shot for grins later down the road. The red plate is the baseplate for the carb. It's a Pro-Systems (glorified Holley 750) carb that was tuned for the N/A setup I had before I decided to go this route.

Damon - I knew there would be vacuum between the carb and blower, just wasn't sure if it was good enough for power brakes or not. I was planning to do the PV reference mod on my carb anyway, but I can see where going with a higher PV to compensate, might work pretty well.

The build is going more slow and tedious than I expected, but I'm making sure everything goes together right so I don't see problems later - like oil leaks, etc. Not to mention this project is costing a few $$$ so I couldn't just buy everything all at once. And I still need a hood!!

Damon

The vacuum you will see at the carb is very similar to a N/A engine. If you have a big cam you still won't have much idle vacuum. If you have a modest cam you'll have plenty. Roots blower motors also seem to be prone to getting a "rolling" idle the bigger the cam is. In noticed the effect creeping in with a cam as small as 224/230* on a 114* LSA.

If you can do the PV mod easily on your carb (boost referencing it) then go ahead and do it. Just that if you need to get up and running on a mildly cammed blower combo you can certainly get away without ever doing it if you tune it right.

stroker_SS

Not arguing, but wouldn't a smaller cam allow the blower to put less air in the cylinder therefore drawing less vacuum?

vwdave

I would think that at idle, the engine is sucking more air than the supercharger is pushing.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Just another update:

Just ordered an aftermarket 4" steel cowl hood today after taking actual measurements with the blower installed. Seems like it's going to fit perfectly under the cowl and be fully functional to boot!! Couldn't be happier because I was concerned.

I measured by placing my stock hood on the car, removed the carb and air cleaner and formed 2 "pillars" of plumber's putty and sat it on top of both the carb mounting pad on top of the blower and the top of the drive snout pulley to make sure a 4" cowl hood would fit. I slammed the stock hood shut (yes it shut!), and I have a 1" clearance above the blower drive pulley to the hood, and 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" clearance from the carb mount on top of the blower to bottom-of-hood.

To break it down, it looks like I'll have about a 1/2" to spare from the top of the air cleaner to the underside of a 4" cowl hood (using a drop base air cleaner and 3" thick filter element)!! So my approximate measurements i took before getting into this seems pretty darn accurate!!

-Heck, if I ran fuel injection, I could reuse the stock hood!

Oh BTW. call me crazy for trying to save it but my AC compressor still fits too! (minus the bracket that went from the compressor to the intake) - but it should work fine after I convert it over to R134.

So far I have all the accessories on the front, headers are back on, tranny, TQ arm - just have the tedious small stuff left and it'll be ready to fire up!!

EDIT: I think I have every detail figured out except for one...I have a 130 GPH mechanical fuel pump and an Aeromotive universal bypass regulator...I'm hoping my stock 5/16" return line will be big enough. What do you guys think? I DON'T want to drop the gas tank to sump it unless I absolutely have to....

Damon

Yes, it should be. Mechanical pump only produces max flow at elevated RPMs (since it's linked to the camshaft). At moderate RPMs it probably won't outrun the stock return line. And when you are at high RPMs you're probably deep into the throttle anyway, using much of what the pump can supply, bypassing very little back to the tank.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Looks good man. I will be watching this. You should have more torque than you know what to do with.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

LilJayV10 - Looks like your car has come a long way! Good work! Love the suspension pieces you have on it, and the tubular engine cradle and A-arms looks like it gives you plenty of room. Very nice - I'm jealous...

Just a few notes for those contemplating installing one of these MP-122's on a thirdgen. I suppose this really only applies to 82-86 carb models with V-belts (sorry it's long):

- Upper radiator hose is quite the pain. Ideally a low profile 60 degree t-stat housing is needed. I took a chrome aftermarket one and had to chop about 1/2" off the snout so the hose would slide on, and the hose still touches the bottom of the blower drive. Kinda like what Damon describes about his installation of a Weiand 142 blower, but even worse.

- Heater hoses: For some reason, they also located these in bad areas right around the drive snout and T-stat housing. It's a tight fit. I'll take a pic and post the area around the drive snout and you'll see what I'm saying.

- Again, unlike the Weiand setups, big cap HEI's won't fit with these blowers and it's not mentioned in any of thier advertisements. I found out after I bought it. This really sucked for me since I had a MSD pro billet HEI with less than 1K on it I now can't use...

- For those wanting to retain thier air pump for emissions (don't know why) - but it won't work. No problem for me since I got rid of mine years before this. The third outermost pulley is what drives the air pump, and it'll interfere with the blower drive belt.

- Even though I had a nice set of chrome belt pulleys, I couldn't use them since the lower crank drive pulley for the blower wouldn't sit flat against it properly. Had to reuse my stock pulleys.

- On a good note, my AC still fit, but the upper hole on the bracket that used to go into the intake isn't there - no provisions for it on the blower intake. And the brace rod that used to go to from the upper AC bracket to the drivers side of the intake can't be used any more. Still, the compressor seems to mount sturdy enough without...my AC doesn't even work anymore, but I plan on converting it over later to R134 so I wanted to keep it.

That's all I can think of for now. My MSD boost timing master box is now installed (what a pain), a new fan control relay with wiring, a new electric fan. I think I'll just reinstall the stock fuel pump for now because I need to get this engine running for break-in soon! It's been together for 4 months and ZI don't want it to seize up or anything from sitting... Still need to wire up and install a new WB O2 gage, boost gage, and locate my boost retard control **** somewhere inside the car within reach...considering the empty panel under my headlight pull ****. I hate wiring!!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Here's a few pics....

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Wow that is tight. Have you thought about converting to a serpentine bracket setup?

chevymec

iTrader: (5)

Cant wait to hear it run and see some numbers !!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, it would be nicer but it really won't gain me anything - the T-stat and heater hose issue would remain the same. The V-belts actually fit fine! (using stock pulleys)

That makes two of us!!! Once I think I have it tuned close as I can get it, I have an open invitation to get it on the dyno at the same machine shop that balanced my rotating assembly! I'm hoping it'll spin the tires....

JohnBlazeLTZ

Oh wow man! Its so cool looking...it just blows my mind looking at it...like its not even real....Its not even mine and I am excited for you! Good work!

JB

Damon

Eeeeyoww, that's a tight fit! Yep, you're a 'blower guy' now! Uniportant little things like cooling hoses, distributors and such must make room for the all-important blower parts!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the kind words JohnBlazeLTZ, and it's real allright - I'll show you my empty wallet to prove it! lol
You don't know how right you are Damon! The distributor issue is just the tip...add on the blower specific cam, forged pistons, MSD box, new fuel pump with bypass regulator - I can keep going.......basically all the recommended parts to support the blower. Just so you know Damon, I'm blaming you for this! lol

I'm waiting on a few more parts (fittings for the fuel), and I should get this thing fired up within the week! I hate doing it this way (breaking in the engine AND with a blower to boot) - and I've changed so many other things, but hopefully it'll go relatively smooth....(crosses fingers).

Damon

I'll take the hit for that. Just so long as I get the credit once it's running and you're having fun sucking the headlights out of bolt-on LS1 cars.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, IT'S ALIVE!!!

Just started it today! Engine sounded solid, and ran pretty smoothly with no knocks or ticking. But it did get hot - quick! I mean like within 5 minutes!!

Could be because I need to add more water - I'm thinking the cooling system 'burped' itself after I initially filled it, and I had the cap on. By the time I realized it was running hot, there was too much pressure behind it to take the cap off and add more, so I'll have to wait for it to cool. I didn't expect everything to be perfect, and it didn't let me down (as usual).

Initially, it just didn't want to start - It finally did start, but after I ran it, I walked behind the car and found huge gobs of "nesting material" behind each exhaust pipe.......it seems mice got into my exhaust and set up house!! I thought it smelled kinda funky after I got it running. I think it was that fuzzy stuff burning in my exhaust pipes. Hopefully my muffler isn't shot for good...I think that's where they were. With any luck it'll blow out eventually.

Timing is way off, it's seems to want to run way advanced (like 18-20 degrees BTDC) - maybe because it's running pig rich. My drivers side header is leaking and sounds like crap....I put a new donut gasket in it, and it's tightened down so I don't know why it decided to leak. I also have a small fuel leak which should be an easy fix. I adjusted my fuel pressure regulator to hold 7.5 psi. Holds 50 PSI oil pressure at 900 rpm's.

On good notes, no oil leaks or water leaks!! Gotta tinker with it to get it running better, but for a first run after all that work - not too bad!!

Still can't take it on the road until I get a hood. The place I ordered it from has taken 4 weeks so far...

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I fixed my exhaust leak already. It helps alot when you actually tighten the driver's side header bolts! Sounds awesome, like it wants to scream!! This cam doesn't seem to lope bad at all like the previous cams I've had - it's smooth, and seems to want a lot of initial advance - but I know my timing mark isn't right on. Maybe the blower helps out with that? - not sure.

But it still got hot again - at least according to my factory gage....it pegged itself out, but the engine was running smoothly at 800 rpm's, oil pressure settled out at 40. It's too hot to the touch, but really anything over 150 degrees or so is too hot to the touch. When I shut it down, it didn't boil over like it was overheated. My new fan controls seem to be working because the fan does run after a few minutes. I think I need to verify how hot this engine is actually getting with another gage before I run it much more. Of course, I'm breaking the engine in too, which I'm sure is adding to the heat.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Where do you have your temp sending unit at? Stewart components told me to put it in the intake close to the thermostat. My temp gauge showed it was running really hot but it wasn't.

Glad you got it started. You don't need a hood to drive it. I haven't put one on my car yet!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

LilJay - I still have the stock sensor mounted in the DS head between 1-3 cylinders. But that's where it was stock too. Do you think SW told you to mount it in the intake because of heat from the headers? I've wondered about that!

- I do have a place on the intake I could mount the temp sensor/switch..does it make a big difference?
-So far as the hood goes, not sure if it's legal to run w/o one around here...I could grow a ****** and find out!! lol
-I need to fatten up the jets before I take it out anyways..and convince myself it's not running too hot.
----------
Sorry, I didn't know the word Mull** was bad until I seen it was blocked.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I know a lot of people use the stock location. Whenever I put my engine together I had it there. It showed it was running at like 260+. But it never boiled over and I could put my hand on the hose and it wasn't that hot. The gauge said it was overheating but I knew it wasn't.

I moved the sensor to the intake and it stays at 180 all the time.

jwscab

blowers like high initial advance. So you are good in the low 20's area. what kind of distributor are you using? I'd try and get up to around 30 degrees of advance, curve it pretty quickly, by say 3000-3500 rpm or so, and then tune from there. you might need to limit max mechanical advance, or adjust vacuum advance(if using it), and mechanical weight springs to get what you need. be careful running any more more advance beyond that, for fear of detonation (wideband could help with afr to determine if it's safe). once it's up to temp, and you have the timing adjusted, check for a hot-restart. if it bumps on the starter, turn down the initial a couple degrees and see if that improves. you are going to have to find the sweet spot between those two conditions.

it might be hot just from break in, usually engines do run a bit hot as everything burnishes in and loosens up. blowers do generate a bunch of heat though, I would keep a very close eye on that for the few weeks or so of running to make sure your cooling system is adequate.